As I see it, the success of the whole RD business model is based on one huge assumption: that there will always be at least one of his clubs doing extremely well, either in the top league or in the Champions League. Lets imagine for a moment that we slip into the 3rd tier and SL have a bad season, miss out on European football or even get relegated. We then have a situation where we can borrow their rubbish players and they can borrow ours. Our respective academy's no longer attract the best youngsters. RD still refuses to pump money into the failing network and instead decides to give the whole thing away and slips off into retirement. A rising tide lifts all boats, but likewise they can all sink together. To make this successful, RD has to be prepared to pump money into clubs where required.
As I see it, the success of the whole RD business model is based on one huge assumption: that there will always be at least one of his clubs doing extremely well, either in the top league or in the Champions League.
I think his business model is 100% based on player development. Having his finger in many leagues improves his scouting network. Also benefits from various levels to pitch players in at.
it's not to be excluded that some players will be sold to Standard Liege, and play Champions League.
He cannot mean that word, sold, literally. He does not want to sell players to himself . One part of him will get ripped off :-)
He ought to clarify what kind of transaction will take place. Will there really be money paid from Standard to Charlton in such a case? Who will decide what a 'fair' price would be in such a case?
Up until now his financial success has been based on getting other clubs to pay him good money for players, and replacing them with players that cost him nothing as they come through the academy. That is a quite different business model to trading players within a network. Yes global companies do employ transfer pricing to make transactions between their national units. I just do not think that this is really what he intends here.
To be honest, I don't think he has thought that part through himself yet. He's got this vision, but there may be some pesky details, some of which might just turn out to be more than just details...
I feel his model is based on business and he has not factored in the fact that the commodities in this are not inanimate objects, that may answer back and decide they do not want to go from one shelving unit (club) to another. He also believes that all leagues are the same and a player can simply slip from one league to another. This is particularly unlikely between continental leagues and the Championship.
After the last regime and for different reasons the end of the previous regime, it is good to have someone that has a clear vision, however the clarity of this vision may become blurred by a clash with reality.
I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline, but for now I think we get behind cp and enjoy this Sunday.
So as I guessed from the sudden change in attitude to RD from three of the trust board (Prague, Razil and Seriously Red) there is some other information they have which they are willing to share privately.
I would imagine that SL will be looking at a lot of our better players and we will be looking at their upcoming talent and the better players from the other clubs. I think there are a couple of things that suit us in this network. Firstly, say Cousins becomes a top player and attracts the attention of Arsenal. Would he want to move to SL? If we get promoted, we get to the top of the pyramid and all of the players within the network (SL included) will want to come to us. Finally, we are a very good shop window for the premiership (in the Championship or even League One), so players will want to come here like the big Pole.
We clearly have to make it work for us, but the hand isn't a bad one to play with. We have a joker or two in there.
I will be interested to see the effect on season ticket sales. Much of course will depend on what league we are in. But say we survive. Will there be a backlash in terms of people who don't like the RD idea not renewing or those who are uncertain hanging fire and paying as they go for a while to see what's what?
That beggars the question of how much the average fan knows or cares about all this. I'll wager that for every one of us hard core devotees who follow every nuance and spend half our time on here, there are several others who don't really care/know what's going on behind the scenes and just turn up for their regular footy fix. A lot may also depend in the timing of sales. If next years tickets go on sale at a discount while we are riding the crest if a Wembley semi final wave then who knows. But if we get stuffed on Sunday, fail to get out of the doo doo in coming weeks and see a managerial/star youngster exit or two then I do wonder whether numbers of ST holders will drop dramatically.
As said interesting thread. I can understand both those feeling positive and those concerned where this is taking us.
I have no issue with us having to sell players. Most clubs outside the Premier League have to do the same, and without a billionaire pumping in millions each season attempting to buy promotion we need to find a way to keep the club running.
I want to see us in a stronger position in which we're not having to sell a player like Shelvey for only £1.7m (or whatever the fee was), lose Palmer for minimal compensation or worry that another Jenkinson/Poyet has broken through but only has a contract until the end of the season. We struggled to bring academy players through while in the Prem and when we came down we built a big squad of players that were supposed to be promising but many didn't make the impact hoped or expected. Out of that squad though there's a few academy players that are at Championship or Prem clubs. Wright, Arter, Randolph, Elliot for example, while Racon, Yassin, Sinclair, McLeod etc moved down the leagues. Although we've got a good academy I don't think we used it as well as we could have done in the first few seasons after relegation.
It's only in the last few years, mainly under Powell, that we've given young players a run of games. This season we've also signed several up on long term contracts. Hopefully this continues with more breaking through and impressing in the first team. If they're on long contracts but do leave we should at least get bigger fees for them, something clubs like Southampton and Palacr have managed to do for their best young players.
One concern around this is the possibility these players may move to SL. I'm not sure I really see this happening. The player still has to agree to it, and good young British players will attract Premier League teams. How many would turn them down a decent mid table side looking to push for a European place and instead play in Belgium for SL?
I think it's more likely a signing like PP has a good season for us and moves on to SL. While we may miss out on a big fee, we may potentially find a replacement more easily. And as suggested if they sell a player for £10m+ some of that money may come to us.
A concern I have is whether Powell or a new manager really can build a team spirit if players are regularly coming in and out of the club from "the network". Koc seems to be here to be developed rather than for our own clubs benefit. If Nego struggles to break through will he simply move to another one of RDs clubs in the summer with another similar player moving here in his place? The Championship is a difficult league, as great as it could be to see young players come in and develop with us, we will always need a number of proven players that we know will compete at this level. There is that worry at the moment that the quality needed for this division has been undestimed.
I really couldn't predict idea how this might turn out. It's going to be an interesting summer, does Powell stay or go, if he goes who replaces him, what players we bring in and where from, which clubs we sell players to and how does our squad look at the end of it. I've felt for a few weeks the plan is around developing players and selling them on to keep the club running and these interviews and quotes still seem to point towards that. But do we need to be in a network to do that and can it work better with players across Europe rather than simply bringing in promising British players from the lower leagues.
As Grapevine said it could well give us a long term future but probably with a few bumps along the way. What I do expect from this is a some more decisions that confuse and frustrate. We could end up watchjng some exciting players that wouldn't usually sign for us, but equally we may end up with a squad of foreign players not suited to lower league English football.
Although I'm far from convinced I'm hoping in time this might just work out well for us. It's not as exciting had a billionaire come in and spent £10m on proven Championship players but it could work out better in the longer term with less debt, a manageable wage bill and a focus on value for money.
I think this may be the longest post Ive ever seen. Possibly tied with Grapevine's above!
I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline, but for now I think we get behind cp and enjoy this Sunday.
I think this option was clearly one that appealed to Richard Murray. It wasn't long ago when we were in the Prem and had various links with clubs across Europe (and ASEC in the Ivory Coast). Nothing ever really came from it but there were similar ideas around us bringing in their best young players and probably around scouting, coaching etc.
I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline, but for now I think we get behind cp and enjoy this Sunday.
So as I guessed from the sudden change in attitude to RD from three of the trust board (Prague, Razil and Seriously Red) there is some other information they have which they are willing to share privately.
There has not been a "change" of attitude, sudden or otherwise from my side. I was unsure, and remain unsure, exactly what the strategy of RD is. I've enjoyed and been enlightened by the contributions of a lot of other people on this and other threads, and that has helped me clarify my own opinions a bit.
I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline, but for now I think we get behind cp and enjoy this Sunday.
So as I guessed from the sudden change in attitude to RD from three of the trust board (Prague, Razil and Seriously Red) there is some other information they have which they are willing to share privately.
There has not been a "change" of attitude, sudden or otherwise from my side. I was unsure, and remain unsure, exactly what the strategy of RD is. I've enjoyed and been enlightened by the contributions of a lot of other people on this and other threads, and that has helped me clarify my own opinions a bit.
Hope that clears that up for you.
And you are not alone in this conclusion?...... I will also declare that I am also 'unsure' and perhaps even a bit more negative than before the BBC programme. I am also unsure about the 'vision' that RD has at least for CAFC. I thought RD did not like talking to the press?.. seems to have changed his mind from what I was told by the comms team three weeks ago?
Nothing of the kind Ben, i think we afe still all absorbing whatbis going on and trying to understand it
Yet
"I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline,
So there is no info you have that you are willing to share offline but you said you are willing to share info offline about alternatives that there ARE (note present tense)
"We have to judge him on what he does to take the club forward."
If you listen to what RD is saying it is up to CAFC, not him, to take the club forward.
He is giving more options to the clubs and making resources available that would not otherwise be available - surely no one can argue this is bad.
Why look for a big "plan" beyond a different model that gives clubs financially stability and offers greater flexibility to managers and players. Where the clubs end up is not down to RD, its down to what happens on the pitch and how good the managers are. RD can only want all of them to succeed. If a clubs assets are not performing they would not be "stripped" and sold but surely given to a better manager. Blame the manager, not RD if your club is under-performing. Any idea that RD will favour one club and allow another to fester wouldn't make any sense under his model.
RD's model might give managers less excuses for not performing. If CP stays it will demonstrate that he thinks RD's model gives him responsibility and an opportunity. Because RD's model is so inter dependant on relationships within the network, I will be guided by what CP thinks of it when he understands how it works. We are never going to be privy to the detail.
I don't think CP would stay just to be a bit player in someone else's game. The crucial "wait and see" moment for me is what does CP do.
The "resources" seem to come with strings attached, though eg buy Polish Pete - young, potential - but sell YK - older, losing "value", though maybe just what we need in a relegation dogfight. In that sense RD is determining how to take the club forward - Powell and the management team are not leading such decisions.
OK, just had an inbox with someone, and can confirm I know nothing about this rumour on ITTV (must go and take a look) I can see how it might look like that from the comment. To be honest as Chair of CAS Trust I am the last person in the loop most of the time
I don't believe RD was or is the only answer to 'save' Charlton, I feel that another buyer would have come along if the price dropped or enough time lapsed, there was enough interest over the last year or two to suggest that and I see no reason why that should not remain the case.
It might have meant admin and league 1 etc but that is an old argument and we need to deal with here and now, and for CAS Trust its about doing what we think is best for the club, that is something we need to thrash out and take views on of course. There are things that still remain as questions I believe in the minds of many fans which includes the Trust board and our members. So far our approach has rightly in my view been open positive and questioning.
I don't want to give any more opinions because inevitably as Chair people take them to be policy of the Trust or me speaking for Charlton fans which isn't the case.
The "resources" seem to come with strings attached, though eg buy Polish Pete - young, potential - but sell YK - older, losing "value", though maybe just what we need in a relegation dogfight. In that sense RD is determining how to take the club forward - Powell and the management team are not leading such decisions.
Much more likely the order of events was sell YK we need to cash in and if you want a replacement how about long term prospect Polish Pete for buttons. Otherwise you have buttons to spend in the market. I'll keep you out of administration but you and the team, and what can be resourced within the network, need to keep us in the Championship.
Would CP and team be leading decisions under old regime if it was either 1- sell YK we need to cash in to avoid administration and you don't have any money to spend. or 2 - We are heading for administration the whole team is up for sale.
The "resources" seem to come with strings attached, though eg buy Polish Pete - young, potential - but sell YK - older, losing "value", though maybe just what we need in a relegation dogfight. In that sense RD is determining how to take the club forward - Powell and the management team are not leading such decisions.
But managers never lead such decision because they are not signing the cheques. They make proposals and try to exert influence. A manager leading on how to take the club forward would be power without responsibility.
We haven't sunk into a relegation fight since Yann left - we were already in one. Since his departure 2 wins and 3 defeats including games against 3 of the best sides in the division. There also seem to be signs of a more imaginative playing style. Yes, I am disappointed by the failure on the loan front but loan players are not the automatic solution and CP has a good record of getting the best out of existing resources. We live in hope.
An impressive youth system that has developed many players who thrived in the premiership. A 27000 all seater stadium that can be full with a succesful team, especially in the premiership GBP 120 million eindfall if Charlton make it back to the premiership.
He is also runoured to be selling standard Leige having spurned a €50 million offer, wishing to hold out for €60 million.
Equally easy to view the glass as half empty or half full. The old regime would have ensured us relegation and further asset stripping, cash flow was tight and there were frequent rumours on herer of unpaid wages and redundancies.
RD pissed off the Standard Leige fans initially but has achieved things noone expected.
All though I am unsure on RD as I do not know anything other than what is reported, I think he is a sensibnle pragmatist who will not finance ill judged loans or quick fixes eg Parky's tenure during Charlton's longest winless streak where 38 different ineffectual journeyman and disinterested players started games during an appaling period.
What happens if he does sell standard liege? Will Charlton then be his 'first XI' that will benefit from a large scouting network and the bulk of his investment?
Used "buttons" as numbers are irrelevant to the point and I don't know the difference between selling and buying prices of the two players or how the trade affected the club's balance sheet. I assume the objective was to be neutral or enhance the balance sheet, not to offload an SL player on to CAFC as might be implied by some comments.
The "resources" seem to come with strings attached, though eg buy Polish Pete - young, potential - but sell YK - older, losing "value", though maybe just what we need in a relegation dogfight. In that sense RD is determining how to take the club forward - Powell and the management team are not leading such decisions.
But managers never lead such decision because they are not signing the cheques. They make proposals and try to exert influence. A manager leading on how to take the club forward would be power without responsibility.
We haven't sunk into a relegation fight since Yann left - we were already in one. Since his departure 2 wins and 3 defeats including games against 3 of the best sides in the division. There also seem to be signs of a more imaginative playing style. Yes, I am disappointed by the failure on the loan front but loan players are not the automatic solution and CP has a good record of getting the best out of existing resources. We live in hope.
....and power withour responsibility was 'ably' demonstrated by the spending policy of Dowie and Pardew when they pissed our money away whilst jutting their jaw and challenging the directors hesitation by saying 'are YOU trying to tell ME about football?'
All this talk about contracts for players whose contract ends in the summer, to be honest the one I would like to see offered a new contract is Poyet. In my humble opinion, he is probably the only player out of contract who will eventually attract a large fee, and I would hate for us to miss out. Although some of the other players I would like to keep, it would not be the end of the road if they left, after all look at our position.
Even though RD has said the club is staying at the Valley I still suspect that something could happen on that front. Imagine if RD could sell the Valley site for redevelopment for say £20m whilst securing a cheap lease on a new stadium on the Peninsula. No doubt in view of the Borough Plan, the council would be supportive, and on first glance the business case seems to stack up. That way RD would recoup his initial investment double quick. It all just makes me wonder.
Even though RD has said the club is staying at the Valley I still suspect that something could happen on that front. Imagine if RD could sell the Valley site for redevelopment for say £20m whilst securing a cheap lease on a new stadium on the Peninsula. No doubt in view of the Borough Plan, the council would be supportive, and on first glance the business case seems to stack up. That way RD would recoup his initial investment double quick. It all just makes me wonder.
Comments
A rising tide lifts all boats, but likewise they can all sink together. To make this successful, RD has to be prepared to pump money into clubs where required.
After the last regime and for different reasons the end of the previous regime, it is good to have someone that has a clear vision, however the clarity of this vision may become blurred by a clash with reality.
We clearly have to make it work for us, but the hand isn't a bad one to play with. We have a joker or two in there.
That beggars the question of how much the average fan knows or cares about all this. I'll wager that for every one of us hard core devotees who follow every nuance and spend half our time on here, there are several others who don't really care/know what's going on behind the scenes and just turn up for their regular footy fix. A lot may also depend in the timing of sales. If next years tickets go on sale at a discount while we are riding the crest if a Wembley semi final wave then who knows. But if we get stuffed on Sunday, fail to get out of the doo doo in coming weeks and see a managerial/star youngster exit or two then I do wonder whether numbers of ST holders will drop dramatically.
You still havent said if your a VIP, if so will you be asking questions?
Hope that clears that up for you.
Yet
"I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline,
So there is no info you have that you are willing to share offline but you said you are willing to share info offline about alternatives that there ARE (note present tense)
Bit of a contradiction there.
If you listen to what RD is saying it is up to CAFC, not him, to take the club forward.
He is giving more options to the clubs and making resources available that would not otherwise be available - surely no one can argue this is bad.
Why look for a big "plan" beyond a different model that gives clubs financially stability and offers greater flexibility to managers and players. Where the clubs end up is not down to RD, its down to what happens on the pitch and how good the managers are. RD can only want all of them to succeed. If a clubs assets are not performing they would not be "stripped" and sold but surely given to a better manager. Blame the manager, not RD if your club is under-performing. Any idea that RD will favour one club and allow another to fester wouldn't make any sense under his model.
RD's model might give managers less excuses for not performing. If CP stays it will demonstrate that he thinks RD's model gives him responsibility and an opportunity. Because RD's model is so inter dependant on relationships within the network, I will be guided by what CP thinks of it when he understands how it works. We are never going to be privy to the detail.
I don't think CP would stay just to be a bit player in someone else's game. The crucial "wait and see" moment for me is what does CP do.
I don't believe RD was or is the only answer to 'save' Charlton, I feel that another buyer would have come along if the price dropped or enough time lapsed, there was enough interest over the last year or two to suggest that and I see no reason why that should not remain the case.
It might have meant admin and league 1 etc but that is an old argument and we need to deal with here and now, and for CAS Trust its about doing what we think is best for the club, that is something we need to thrash out and take views on of course. There are things that still remain as questions I believe in the minds of many fans which includes the Trust board and our members. So far our approach has rightly in my view been open positive and questioning.
I don't want to give any more opinions because inevitably as Chair people take them to be policy of the Trust or me speaking for Charlton fans which isn't the case.
Would CP and team be leading decisions under old regime if it was either
1- sell YK we need to cash in to avoid administration and you don't have any money to spend.
or
2 - We are heading for administration the whole team is up for sale.
We haven't sunk into a relegation fight since Yann left - we were already in one. Since his departure 2 wins and 3 defeats including games against 3 of the best sides in the division. There also seem to be signs of a more imaginative playing style. Yes, I am disappointed by the failure on the loan front but loan players are not the automatic solution and CP has a good record of getting the best out of existing resources. We live in hope.
An impressive youth system that has developed many players who thrived in the premiership.
A 27000 all seater stadium that can be full with a succesful team, especially in the premiership
GBP 120 million eindfall if Charlton make it back to the premiership.
He is also runoured to be selling standard Leige having spurned a €50 million offer, wishing to hold out for €60 million.
Equally easy to view the glass as half empty or half full. The old regime would have ensured us relegation and further asset stripping, cash flow was tight and there were frequent rumours on herer of unpaid wages and redundancies.
RD pissed off the Standard Leige fans initially but has achieved things noone expected.
All though I am unsure on RD as I do not know anything other than what is reported, I think he is a sensibnle pragmatist who will not finance ill judged loans or quick fixes eg Parky's tenure during Charlton's longest winless streak where 38 different ineffectual journeyman and disinterested players started games during an appaling period.
What happens if he does sell standard liege? Will Charlton then be his 'first XI' that will benefit from a large scouting network and the bulk of his investment?
Could well be the case.
Bloody hard work at times.
And then there are the owners :-)