A corridor that everone waits in and then enters a private toilet room with sink with those rooms being capable of being accessed by any person is not the norm in my experience.
More common seems to be a toilet waiting area with hand washing facilities shared by all users and cubicles, sometimes with floor to ceiling doors and walls and sometimes not but in either case the walls/doors being 10mm hardboard.
i have not experienced any of the females i have been with have that many issues with the separate room toilets (assuming they are clean), it is sharing a multi-cubicle single space that ordinarily would be single sex and a 'safe' space that none of the females i have been with when encountering them has been uncomfortable and, in common with many others experience, when faced with this as the option, choose to go very much out of their way to go elsewhere.
As many of the disabled access facilities are constructed along the 'separate toilet room' basis, i think it is sensible that these also become gender neutral and accessible to all, particularly where the combination of sex/gender identity would or could cause issues for a large proportion of the users of a gender specific facilities.
I have only ever used gender neutral toilets where they are individual cubicles, with floor to ceiling walls and the door is in full view of everyone outside.
I have never been in one where there are separate cubicles within a larger room and I would feel uncomfortable in using one. Men tend to be messier than women which makes me reluctant to use them.
I think the biggest problem is that so many public toilets are being closed due to lack of funding and therefore reducing choice.
Personally, I've never been much of a fan of spending time worrying about what people I don't know have in their underwear, when I see them in a pub. But lots of people do. And it causes them a disproportionate amount of stress.
So, perhaps it would be useful to decide where these two people must be forced to go when they need to use a loo in a pub. Although, of course, it must be the same answer for both.
Anyone care to decide on their behalf?
Given that one of those two has a history of male violence against women, I'm afraid whoever is in the first picture is going to have to be collateral damage to keep the violent male out of a female only space.
I completely follow the logic that if one of the examples I pictured is violent towards women that they may be a risk to women wherever they are.
They're a danger to women (and, presumably, others) because they're violent, not because they are a trans woman.
I wanted to confine the question to their status as a transwoman, rather than their criminal past.
Should they both be confined to the male gender loos in a nightclub? Might that pose a risk to "whoever is in the other picture"?
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which is the black and white binary version of the debate. Framing the question that way will always get the same answer.
Unfortunately the world and the debate aren't black and white binary. There are grey areas and a range of situations. Hence why gender neutral toilets enter the conversation as they are part of the solution (when done properly).
My wife doesn't care, it's a cubicle not a urinal so no problem as far as she's concerned. But I appreciate not every woman would feel the same.
One of the major weekenders we attend ends up with huge queues for the ladies, so many of them use the gents ( not the urinals, before someone pipes up ). The blokes have no problem, and no one is perving - they would get laid out if they did - but the security got the hump a couple of years back and got short shrift from the men and women when they tried to kick the ladies out.
Whilst I don't go along with the passive aggressive claim that TG people might be virtual signaling and claiming the world is out to get them (you must be pretty daft not to know what's going on in the USA right now) A pre-op transgender person can use the trap in the gents if they like.
In my opinion (and it's only my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone elses), the "problem" is massively exaggerated in order to distract people from more far reaching and serious problems.
My wife doesn't care, it's a cubicle not a urinal so no problem as far as she's concerned. But I appreciate not every woman would feel the same.
One of the major weekenders we attend ends up with huge queues for the ladies, so many of them use the gents ( not the urinals, before someone pipes up ). The blokes have no problem, and no one is perving - they would get laid out if they did - but the security got the hump a couple of years back and got short shrift from the men and women when they tried to kick the ladies out.
Whilst I don't go along with the passive aggressive claim that TG people might be virtual signaling and claiming the world is out to get them (you must be pretty daft not to know what's going on in the USA right now) A pre-op transgender person can use the trap in the gents if they like.
In my opinion (and it's only my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone elses), the "problem" is massively exaggerated in order to distract people from more far reaching and serious problems.
I don't agree with everything here, but I completely align with that last comment
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in schools, clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
I'll get my piece out the way- hopefully before any of the usual suspects says "right on cue" about me.
I don't think signs on toilet doors are going to stop predators, as an early post in the thread implies. Toilets are where people do their business. My friend Emma does not "pass" - like many trans women, I assume - but she'd be judged a "freak" no matter what bathroom she tries to use, by the people inclined to do so.
Wrong'uns are wrong'uns regardless.
(Edited to remove references to specific posters)
Yeah cheers!
Nice to know you think about me though.
Anyway, its good to see the men on here telling women how they should feel. The 'usual suspects' as well.
I would like to convey my thanks to @aliwibble for her measured and knowledgeable posts on the are of discussion.
I also want to preface my comments with the non negotiable position that all people regardless of any characteristic protected or otherwise are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. That said I think it important to note that the whole area of sex and gender and trans rights is a contested area and as such people hold legitimately differing views.
I think the above matters because there can be an approach from some trans rights activists that de legitimises anyone who does not concur with their position. This rather than a acceptance that the area of trans perhaps particularly for children is an area of huge sensitivity and with a significant amount of unknowns. By way of example, amongst young people who are neuro-divergent there is a disproportionate number of young people who are experiences gender dysphoria. There is a lack of understanding at this stage as to why this is so , but as someone who has worked with children and young people for 35 years I am one who wishes to tread extremely carefully in devising appropriate responses to the issues in hand. The Cass review found a startling number of issues in practice around health responses to children with gender dysphoria . I list them below , largely for the purpose of demonstrating how ideological drivers from some practitioners have shaped health responses in children without clear evidence and knowledge of long term impact.
Overview of key findings
There is no simple explanation for the increase in the numbers of predominantly young people and young adults who have a trans or gender-diverse identity, but there is broad agreement that it is a result of a complex interplay between biological, psychological and social factors. This balance of factors will be different in each individual.
There are conflicting views about the clinical approach, with expectations of care at times being far from usual clinical practice. This has made some clinicians fearful of working with gender-questioning young people, despite their presentation being similar to many children and young people presenting to other NHS services.
An appraisal of international guidelines for care and treatment of children and young people with gender incongruence found that that no single guideline could be applied in its entirety to the NHS in England.
While a considerable amount of research has been published in this field, systematic evidence reviews demonstrated the poor quality of the published studies, meaning there is not a reliable evidence base upon which to make clinical decisions, or for children and their families to make informed choices.
The strengths and weaknesses of the evidence base on the care of children and young people are often misrepresented and overstated, both in scientific publications and social debate.
The controversy surrounding the use of medical treatments has taken focus away from what the individualised care and treatment is intended to achieve for individuals seeking support from NHS gender services.
The rationale for early puberty suppression remains unclear, with weak evidence regarding the impact on gender dysphoria, mental or psychosocial health. The effect on cognitive and psychosexual development remains unknown.
The use of masculinising/feminising hormones in those under the age of 18 also presents many unknowns, despite their longstanding use in the adult transgender population. The lack of long-term follow-up data on those commencing treatment at an earlier age means we have inadequate information about the range of outcomes for this group.
Clinicians are unable to determine with any certainty which children and young people will go on to have an enduring trans identity.
For the majority of young people, a medical pathway may not be the best way to manage their gender-related distress. For those young people for whom a medical pathway is clinically indicated, it is not enough to provide this without also addressing wider mental health and/or psychosocially challenging problems.
Innovation is important if medicine is to move forward, but there must be a proportionate level of monitoring, oversight and regulation that does not stifle progress, while preventing creep of unproven approaches into clinical practice. Innovation must draw from and contribute to the evidence base.
Before someone claims that my points are irrelevant to the specific discussion in hand, my assertion is this. The rights of women have been hard fought and hard won in this country. The denigration of notable feminists with gender critical views by some transactivists has been appalling .
A gender critical perspective is a legitimate one . The below is a useful summary of perspectives held.
Key Beliefs of Gender-Critical Perspectives:
Sex is a Material Reality – They argue that biological sex (male/female) is objective and unchangeable, whereas gender (social roles, identity, and expression) is culturally constructed.
Concern for Women's Rights – Many gender-critical feminists worry that policies based on gender identity rather than sex could undermine protections for women, particularly in spaces like changing rooms, shelters, and prisons.
Scepticism Towards Self-Identification Laws – They often oppose policies that allow people to change their legal sex based on self-identification without medical or social transition requirements.
Support for Free Speech & Debate – Many gender-critical thinkers believe that discussing gender identity and its implications should not be considered inherently hateful or discriminatory.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Whilst this is a logical conclusion it ignores practical reality in that such solutions are impractical and/or very expensive to accommodate in many venues.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Agreed restaurants and many work places are ok.
But I assume as you have avoided the question you agree that in schools, pubs at football matches, in clubs etc many women do not feel safe with men in the same toilets.
It seems to me that in an effort to support the minority trans population of presumably less than 1% you are content to ignore the wishes of the majority of the @50%.
NB my wife and her friends won’t even go into a pub alone because almost guaranteed some bloke will come over and start pestering her/chatting her up within 10 minutes.
So going into pub toilets with men is a definite no.
I think listening to women is key, but the problem is there's not going to be a high level of accordance. I'm assuming most members of our social circles broadly have similar outlooks, so whereas most women I'm friends with would be inclusionsary on the matter, that's obviously not the case for many. Who gets the final say, so to speak?
Also, if we're taking this in good faith as a male violence issue, there are quantifiably more pressing matters to be dealt with than which cubicle a person is able to use. The place that is least safe for women (and men) from male violence is their own home, by far. Outside the home, casual sexism and even harassment is an everyday occurrence. I would hope that we all would be as vociferous about these far more prevelant issues.
The thread was about a man, with stubble in a dress using the womens toilets. I don’t give a shiny shit why they feel entitled to do so and most women I have had any type of discussion with do not like this behaviour. We've had two blokes sacked for using the women's toilets at our various sites as, rightly, those toilets are a safe space for a single sex. The women's toilets at my yard I've been told are a lot nicer than the blokes and fair play, I've seen the state some of the creatures I work with seem to relish leaving the blokes shitters in.
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Which loo should a transwoman use?
Transwoman, as in a biological male can use the mens toilets or the unisex disabled toilets. @Jessie and a few other female posters, the ones who are affected by this, has said similar.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Can you see any issues at all in this? Set aside who - and how - this is policed, and consider whether the three people pictured below would feel safe if they're in a nightclub that has no "unisex disabled toilets" and they were prevented from using the women's loos. Does limiting these people to using men's loos in a crowded, busy nightclub late at night present any risk issues at all?
My wife doesn't care, it's a cubicle not a urinal so no problem as far as she's concerned. But I appreciate not every woman would feel the same.
One of the major weekenders we attend ends up with huge queues for the ladies, so many of them use the gents ( not the urinals, before someone pipes up ). The blokes have no problem, and no one is perving - they would get laid out if they did - but the security got the hump a couple of years back and got short shrift from the men and women when they tried to kick the ladies out.
Whilst I don't go along with the passive aggressive claim that TG people might be virtual signaling and claiming the world is out to get them (you must be pretty daft not to know what's going on in the USA right now) A pre-op transgender person can use the trap in the gents if they like.
In my opinion (and it's only my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone elses), the "problem" is massively exaggerated in order to distract people from more far reaching and serious problems.
I don't agree with everything here, but I completely align with that last comment
I doubt the women who feel uncomfortable about it see themselves victims of media exaggeration and misinformation, IF that's what's implied by that comment. That's evident from their considered responses on here, few though there are of them.
Can anyone educate me on whether the law around toilet use has changed at all? Did a law pass allowing men into ladies loos or is the situation (legally) as it ever was and just now there are more trans people?
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
No, its a system that has served us fairly well over the years. Penis = use the gents
That’s not an answer though. How do you propose to enforce it?
Nothing, at this current time, is stopping people from walking into a ladies room at all, whether they are dressed up as a man, woman, or an alien from Mars.
Can anyone educate me on whether the law around toilet use has changed at all? Did a law pass allowing men into ladies loos or is the situation (legally) as it ever was and just now there are more trans people?
I doubt there are significantly more trans people now, issues like this have just become a disproportionately massive topic of conversation (for both right and left) despite the actual number of trans people in society in general being tiny. See also the furore over trans women competing in women’s sport.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Whilst this is a logical conclusion it ignores practical reality in that such solutions are impractical and/or very expensive to accommodate in many venues.
Agree many places aren't able to practically do this properly. But where they can be we should be trying to as much as we can. I don't know what the answer is where it's not possible I wouldn't want to just re badge existing toilets as that I think makes things worse. But I'm sure there can be bespoke solutions for lots of places that can be better than nothing.
Can anyone educate me on whether the law around toilet use has changed at all? Did a law pass allowing men into ladies loos or is the situation (legally) as it ever was and just now there are more trans people?
July 2022: The UK government announced that all new public buildings in England should provide separate male and female toilets. This decision was influenced by concerns that the increase in gender-neutral facilities was disadvantaging women, leading to longer queues and reduced privacy. The government emphasised that while unisex, self-contained toilets could be provided if space allowed, they should not replace single-sex facilities.
August 2023: Building upon the previous announcement, the government confirmed measures to reverse the rise of gender-neutral toilets. New regulations were proposed to ensure that all new non-domestic public and private buildings are required to provide separate single-sex toilets for men and women. The guidelines also encouraged the provision of self-contained, private toilets to accommodate all users.
May 2024: The government laid new legislation to halt the increase of gender-neutral toilets in buildings. The new requirements mandate that new non-domestic buildings, such as restaurants, shopping centres, and offices, provide separate single-sex toilets. Self-contained, universal toilets may be provided in addition, where space allows, or instead of single-sex toilets where space is limited.
In short, the last government intervened in favour of a reduction in the use of unisex facilities three times in the last months of being in office.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
Ok, let’s assume that gender neutral toilets in a work office, where all staff have already been “vetted” to gain employment is ok as the vast majority will not be drunk on drugs, psychotic or care in the community etc etc etc.
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
My wife is pro gender neutral toilets and has actively campaigned for them in certain places alongside trans and non-binary friends.
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Agreed restaurants and many work places are ok.
But I assume as you have avoided the question you agree that in schools, pubs at football matches, in clubs etc many women do not feel safe with men in the same toilets.
It seems to me that in an effort to support the minority trans population of presumably less than 1% you are content to ignore the wishes of the majority of the @50%.
I’m on the side of rights for women.
I haven't avoided the question at all (and you called me condescending!). I said when it can be done properly it will work. I'll apply it specifically to one of your examples.
Say a football stadium, clearly not possible/easy to implement properly retrospectively in a lot of older stadiums. But in a newly designed stadium a row of individual room gender neutral toilets can absolutely be done and would work well.
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
No, its a system that has served us fairly well over the years. Penis = use the gents
That’s not an answer though. How do you propose to enforce it?
Nothing, at this current time, is stopping people from walking into a ladies room at all, whether they are dressed up as a man, woman, or an alien from Mars.
Thats among one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked
Decency enforces it, I don't expect toilet police I expect adults to respect females space
Comments
More common seems to be a toilet waiting area with hand washing facilities shared by all users and cubicles, sometimes with floor to ceiling doors and walls and sometimes not but in either case the walls/doors being 10mm hardboard.
i have not experienced any of the females i have been with have that many issues with the separate room toilets (assuming they are clean), it is sharing a multi-cubicle single space that ordinarily would be single sex and a 'safe' space that none of the females i have been with when encountering them has been uncomfortable and, in common with many others experience, when faced with this as the option, choose to go very much out of their way to go elsewhere.
As many of the disabled access facilities are constructed along the 'separate toilet room' basis, i think it is sensible that these also become gender neutral and accessible to all, particularly where the combination of sex/gender identity would or could cause issues for a large proportion of the users of a gender specific facilities.
I have never been in one where there are separate cubicles within a larger room and I would feel uncomfortable in using one. Men tend to be messier than women which makes me reluctant to use them.
I think the biggest problem is that so many public toilets are being closed due to lack of funding and therefore reducing choice.
They're a danger to women (and, presumably, others) because they're violent, not because they are a trans woman.
I wanted to confine the question to their status as a transwoman, rather than their criminal past.
Should they both be confined to the male gender loos in a nightclub? Might that pose a risk to "whoever is in the other picture"?
The thread was not about floor to ceiling, specifically constructed unisex/gender fluid/whatever toilets it was about our thoughts on men using the women's toilets and thats a absolute hard no for me. Next time I'm in the pub I'll ask all the girls in there what they think as well. I have a suspicion but I'll share the answers when I hear them.
Unfortunately the world and the debate aren't black and white binary. There are grey areas and a range of situations. Hence why gender neutral toilets enter the conversation as they are part of the solution (when done properly).
One of the major weekenders we attend ends up with huge queues for the ladies, so many of them use the gents ( not the urinals, before someone pipes up
Whilst I don't go along with the passive aggressive claim that TG people might be virtual signaling and claiming the world is out to get them (you must be pretty daft not to know what's going on in the USA right now) A pre-op transgender person can use the trap in the gents if they like.
In my opinion (and it's only my opinion, no more or less valid than anyone elses), the "problem" is massively exaggerated in order to distract people from more far reaching and serious problems.
Its nonsense that those of us who aren't affected are piping up saying its fine for a transwoman/biological male to use the women's toilets because they have cubicles.
And for what its worth, the western world has never been a safer place for people to be themselves. And I'm all for that, why wouldn't I be. I cant pretend to be a feminist or some bullshit like that as I'm not a female but I 100% respect the rights of women to have a safe and private place like they have for years that is exclusively for women
Do you feel there should be gender neutral toilets which will not be implemented properly in schools, clubs, pubs, at Charlton, in parks, cinemas etc and more importantly do you think your partner (assuming she is a woman) and mother and grandmother would/would have felt the same and all women?
As I said if implemented properly they can work anywhere. It's pretty common in restaurants to have a small number of individual room gender neutral toilets.
Nice to know you think about me though.
Anyway, its good to see the men on here telling women how they should feel. The 'usual suspects' as well.
I also want to preface my comments with the non negotiable position that all people regardless of any characteristic protected or otherwise are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. That said I think it important to note that the whole area of sex and gender and trans rights is a contested area and as such people hold legitimately differing views.
I think the above matters because there can be an approach from some trans rights activists that de legitimises anyone who does not concur with their position. This rather than a acceptance that the area of trans perhaps particularly for children is an area of huge sensitivity and with a significant amount of unknowns. By way of example, amongst young people who are neuro-divergent there is a disproportionate number of young people who are experiences gender dysphoria. There is a lack of understanding at this stage as to why this is so , but as someone who has worked with children and young people for 35 years I am one who wishes to tread extremely carefully in devising appropriate responses to the issues in hand. The Cass review found a startling number of issues in practice around health responses to children with gender dysphoria . I list them below , largely for the purpose of demonstrating how ideological drivers from some practitioners have shaped health responses in children without clear evidence and knowledge of long term impact.
Overview of key findings
Before someone claims that my points are irrelevant to the specific discussion in hand, my assertion is this. The rights of women have been hard fought and hard won in this country. The denigration of notable feminists with gender critical views by some transactivists has been appalling .
A gender critical perspective is a legitimate one . The below is a useful summary of perspectives held.
Key Beliefs of Gender-Critical Perspectives:
But I assume as you have avoided the question you agree that in schools, pubs at football matches, in clubs etc many women do not feel safe with men in the same toilets.
It seems to me that in an effort to support the minority trans population of presumably less than 1% you are content to ignore the wishes of the majority of the @50%.
I’m on the side of rights for women.
So going into pub toilets with men is a definite no.
Also, if we're taking this in good faith as a male violence issue, there are quantifiably more pressing matters to be dealt with than which cubicle a person is able to use. The place that is least safe for women (and men) from male violence is their own home, by far. Outside the home, casual sexism and even harassment is an everyday occurrence. I would hope that we all would be as vociferous about these far more prevelant issues.
In short, the last government intervened in favour of a reduction in the use of unisex facilities three times in the last months of being in office.
Say a football stadium, clearly not possible/easy to implement properly retrospectively in a lot of older stadiums. But in a newly designed stadium a row of individual room gender neutral toilets can absolutely be done and would work well.
Decency enforces it, I don't expect toilet police I expect adults to respect females space