We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
You've never heard of more than one person bring in a plane toilet at the same time?
No possible danger is wide of the mark.
Only the mile high club which is voluntarily. I'm sure it has happened, but I don't recall any instances of women being assaulted in single cubicle plane toilets.
Common sense dictates that there is a greater chance of women being assaulted in areas where men are permitted as opposed to areas where men are not permitted.
Anyway, we've got all these men saying women should be more than happy to have men in the same toilets.
How about the men stop talking for women and hear some women's opinions?
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
You've never heard of more than one person bring in a plane toilet at the same time?
No possible danger is wide of the mark.
Only the mile high club which is voluntarily. I'm sure it has happened, but I don't recall any instances of women being assaulted in plane toilets.
Anyway, we've got all these men saying women should be more than happy to have men in the same toilets.
How about the men stop talking for women and hear some women's opinions?
It is not about women being happy or not happy. It is about what you propose to do to stop trans people using toilets. Surely your position requires an answer to that question.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
But the conversation was about trans people and what bathroom they should use? I'm confused!?. If what you're talking about is a man (predator) going into a women's bathroom then surely that's everything about him being a predator and nothing to do with what bathroom a trans person uses? I don't think a predator would wait for trans people to be allowed there before doing so.
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
I can accept that, but can you answer my questions then as surely they are fundamental to how a ban could be realistically applied.
Also, it is well known fact that women are more likely to have queues in their toilets. I am sure we all know that it is not uncommon that they will sometimes use the mens in certain situations. Should they be taken to court for this?
If you want to attack trans people, surely you need to come up with a better example than an irrelevant unenforcable one.
I HAVE NOT MENTIONED TRANS PEOPLE. I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I travelled on an airbus a few years ago to Cuba. It had a downstairs toilet area with about 6 cubicles. Men and women went down the stairs and waited together in the toilet area. When a cubicle was free they went in and locked the door, which is what they would do in a public toilet.
I wouldn't like to speak up for women without checking, but I don't believe they would feel vulnerable queuing on a plane for an available toilet cubicle.
Entirely different to being in a unisex toliet in a club at 1am when most men (and women) would have been drinking or taking drugs.
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
Its important to have the conversation and there is no easy answer here. There are a few things to bear in mind when having the conversation though.
Trans people are people. They are often some of the most vulnerable people in society, more likely to be the victim of violence, more likely to be the victim of sexual violence. they are also a very small proportion of the population.
My personal view is that gender is fluid, there is science to this, differing levels of testosterone and oestrogen in different people, studies have found that as high as 1% of people are undiagnosed as a form of intersex - either the genitals they were born with dont match their chromosomes, they have both sets of chromosomes or have male chromosomes but the Y doesnt activate.
The trans population is much smaller than that. To be clear I'm not saying all trans people are intersex but I am pointing out that gender is not as straightforward binary as some believe.
These are things that should be remembered throughout discussions like this.
Aware I havent really answered the question. Its because I dont have an answer. I dont want women to feel unsafe but I think the reason that women might feel unsafe isnt genuine trans people but predators. I think predators are gonna be predators either way and dont think they would go to that effort just to get in a womens bathroom. I think gender neutral bathrooms would solve the problem completely.
Of course trans people are people Canters, they aren't cyborgs, but they remain the sex they were born as, regardless of how they identify. Gender may be fluid, but sex isn't, and that's what's important if we're talking about single sex spaces. I'm sure you're not implying that testosterone and oestrogen levels make you more or less female, as that'd be incredibly insulting to the post-menopausal women and guys that have had to undergo testosterone suppression for prostate cancer treatment on here. Also that 1% figure is a massive overestimate, as it includes a number of DSD conditions that only affect males or females - the real figure is more like 0.02%. And can you explain what you mean by the bit in bold, with some examples to make it clearer?
I agree the problem isn't trans people, it's male people (Not All Men, before the usual complaints come in). Nearly all sexual violence offences are committed by male people, regardless of how they identify, and the vast majority of their victims are female people. There's no evidence that male people who identify as women are any less likely to be a sexual predator than other male people, let alone being a similar risk profile to female people. We have single sex provision to mitigate those risks, as it's not like as sex offenders have their status tattooed on their foreheads, as well as allowing women and girls dignity and privacy away from the male gaze. I always find it odd that people who claim to feel like women don't understand women's concerns over this.
And you don't think predators would go to what effort exactly? There are at least a couple of cases I can think of where blokes have been caught in the ladies committing voyeurism offences (IIRC) who had made no effort to change their appearance, but claimed to be trans when caught. Communal gender neutral loos (not bathrooms, we're not americans! ) would only make matters worse as they open up access to a whole new cohort of victims to those predators who aren't emboldened enough to access female only spaces.
I'd be in favour of gender neutral loos as additional single access provision, as it'd mean that as well as trans people who aren't comfortable using the facilities for their own sex, opposite sex carers could accompany the people they're caring for without needing to use the disabled loo, and you could put an additional baby change table in there for dads to use. However, they generally replace single sex provision instead, which has multiple disadvantages for women both in terms of safety and convenience, and that's before we get into the lazy "just rebadge the ladies and gents without replacing the urinals" problem. In addition, the requirement to have floor to ceiling doors and partitions to prevent phone over/under the divide filming means that if someone collapses in the cubical they're less likely to be discovered, which is a safety issue.
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
I'll get my piece out the way- hopefully before ValleyGary or off_it or whoever else says "right on cue" about me.
I don't think signs on toilet doors are going to stop predators, as an early post in the thread implies. Toilets are where people do their business. My friend Emma does not "pass" - like many trans women, I assume - but she'd be judged a "freak" no matter what bathroom she tries to use, by the people inclined to do so.
Wrong'uns are wrong'uns regardless.
Sorry, what?
Why are you bringing me into this? As you've told me before, you're not your dad and as far as I'm aware we haven't ever had any crossed words.
If you've mistaken me for someone else then fair enough, but I'm not having that.
Well said aliwibble. It's about time the women spoke up and spoke for themselves, instead of the men telling us that ALL women they have worked with prefer gender neutral toilets.
Personally, I've never been much of a fan of spending time worrying about what people I don't know have in their underwear, when I see them in a pub. But lots of people do. And it causes them a disproportionate amount of stress.
So, perhaps it would be useful to decide where these two people must be forced to go when they need to use a loo in a pub. Although, of course, it must be the same answer for both.
Anyone care to decide on their behalf?
Given that one of those two has a history of male violence against women, I'm afraid whoever is in the first picture is going to have to be collateral damage to keep the violent male out of a female only space.
I'll get my piece out the way- hopefully before ValleyGary or off_it or whoever else says "right on cue" about me.
I don't think signs on toilet doors are going to stop predators, as an early post in the thread implies. Toilets are where people do their business. My friend Emma does not "pass" - like many trans women, I assume - but she'd be judged a "freak" no matter what bathroom she tries to use, by the people inclined to do so.
Wrong'uns are wrong'uns regardless.
Sorry, what?
Why are you bringing me into this? As you've told me before, you're not your dad and as far as I'm aware we haven't ever had any crossed words.
If you've mistaken me for someone else then fair enough, but I'm not having that.
I have edited my comment accordingly, and apologies for being petty.
This thread proves sometimes men really have absolutely no idea how women feel about issues regarding women and further more, simply don't want to be educated but keep thinking from a man's perspective without realising it's just not right.😅
I don't blame them though. It's very common actually.
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
How do you propose to check who’s a man and who’s not a man beforehand? We going to start employing toilet guards to stand at the door and fondle everyone’s private parts to find out what bathroom they SHOULD use?
No, its a system that has served us fairly well over the years. Penis = use the gents
I've never seen a woman who prefers gender neutral toilets. Wherever I've worked that has them (3 places) all the women (some louder than others, granted) have insisted on "men on the left, women on the right" which wasn't because of fear of being sexually assaulted, but purely because of the mess men make.
I'm guessing people giving the answer posters wanted to hear is because they're terrified of getting their ear chewed off and a lecture.
It's good for us to keep lecturing women and telling them what's good for them though, hopefully soon we can take the vote off them too and get back to the good old days
We went into a restaurants toilets a little while ago and it was mixed. Didn’t bother me but the wife didn’t like the idea that she was using a loo previously used by a man. But what neither of us liked was the fact there were also urinals in there. I don’t think that is right at all.
Do you segregate your toilets at home then?
Is your front door permanently open to allow the general public of every sex/gender access to your home toilet unchecked at the same time? If not it seems a false equivalence.
Going to the loo on planes or trains (not southeastern as the loos are always shut) must be quite challenging though.
I've never known loos on trains or planes to be accessed by more than one person at a time so no possible danger to women of being flashed/molested/assaulted/raped. I don't understand. Maybe I've been whooshed?
Not whooshed. You've discovered gender neutral toilets. Congrats
I'm not sure why you've become so condescending in recent times. You appear to have changed personality.
The issue many women have is not wanting to be in toilets with men. If it a single toliet on a train or plane then that is not an issue. I'm surprised you need that explaining.
NB if you want further clarity my mum was raped, my wife has been assaulted and my sister flashed (the three women who were/are closest family).
It was a bit of fun to demonstrate the point that gender neutral toilets have existed for decades and when done properly make a safer and nicer experience for all.
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN NOT TRANS.
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women. My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
Well my wife has said "no way would I prefer that" and she doesn't believe that the majority of women would prefer it and nor do I.
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that. (Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
When we moved offices to one with gender neutral toilets (as I said implemented properly - row of small rooms like a home toilet) there was lots of conversations about whether or not it was a good thing. Once we had actually moved those conversations were all about how it had become a nicer environment for everyone.
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
I have two daughters (15 and 17) and one wife. I asked them last night if they would be comfortable with this. There was one universal response.
As part of my work I spend time in the UK offices of some of the worlds leading media and digital companies. I have seen a mix of single sex toilets and gender neutal toilets.
As a 50 something bloke I feel uncomfortable in the neutral ones, even if they have full height doors. I don't mind a bloke hearing me fart and shit, but I am conscious of a woman hearing that. Maybe its a generational thing and the younger generation are comfortable with it? My suspicion is that a female colleague, of whatever generation, doesn't want me to see that they have just done a really smelly shit as we wash our hands together.
I do wonder whether the view that a staff survey and discussion with colleagues suggests people prefer gender neutral toilets is simply a result of the fear people now have (and I think its very much a London thing) of being seen to somehow discriminate against anyone in the face of the ever present focus on EDI and associated virtue signalling.
A lot of people I know, in candid conversations, think its a load of bollocks, but know they cant be seen to disagree with EDI "groupthink".
Unless there is evidence(not anecdotal )to suggest this is dangerous then I see no problem.
But your view is as irrelevant as all others posted by men who don't have concerns over it.
If the sight of a man entering the ladies toilet makes a woman feel uncomfortable, what has evidence got to do with it. You going to educate her that her concern is irrational are you. Good luck with that!
THE THREAD TITLE IS BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO. MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
Read the first post. Man in a dress using the ladies, the thread is about trans.
Unisex toilets effect men too so not sure why men aren't allowed a say. Losing the urinal will be make things far longer (look at the queues outside the ladies) and i don't get what the benefits are?
As for women, as someone who's had to use toilets on building sites for many years, it's something they won't enjoy.
The only upside is stops this nonsense about trans should use the disabled toilets ffs. That nonsense is why we could be heading to fix something that's been working perfectly for centuries.
Its important to have the conversation and there is no easy answer here. There are a few things to bear in mind when having the conversation though.
Trans people are people. They are often some of the most vulnerable people in society, more likely to be the victim of violence, more likely to be the victim of sexual violence. they are also a very small proportion of the population.
My personal view is that gender is fluid, there is science to this, differing levels of testosterone and oestrogen in different people, studies have found that as high as 1% of people are undiagnosed as a form of intersex - either the genitals they were born with dont match their chromosomes, they have both sets of chromosomes or have male chromosomes but the Y doesnt activate.
The trans population is much smaller than that. To be clear I'm not saying all trans people are intersex but I am pointing out that gender is not as straightforward binary as some believe.
These are things that should be remembered throughout discussions like this.
Aware I havent really answered the question. Its because I dont have an answer. I dont want women to feel unsafe but I think the reason that women might feel unsafe isnt genuine trans people but predators. I think predators are gonna be predators either way and dont think they would go to that effort just to get in a womens bathroom. I think gender neutral bathrooms would solve the problem completely.
Of course trans people are people Canters, they aren't cyborgs, but they remain the sex they were born as, regardless of how they identify. Gender may be fluid, but sex isn't, and that's what's important if we're talking about single sex spaces. I'm sure you're not implying that testosterone and oestrogen levels make you more or less female, as that'd be incredibly insulting to the post-menopausal women and guys that have had to undergo testosterone suppression for prostate cancer treatment on here. Also that 1% figure is a massive overestimate, as it includes a number of DSD conditions that only affect males or females - the real figure is more like 0.02%. And can you explain what you mean by the bit in bold, with some examples to make it clearer?
I agree the problem isn't trans people, it's male people (Not All Men, before the usual complaints come in). Nearly all sexual violence offences are committed by male people, regardless of how they identify, and the vast majority of their victims are female people. There's no evidence that male people who identify as women are any less likely to be a sexual predator than other male people, let alone being a similar risk profile to female people. We have single sex provision to mitigate those risks, as it's not like as sex offenders have their status tattooed on their foreheads, as well as allowing women and girls dignity and privacy away from the male gaze. I always find it odd that people who claim to feel like women don't understand women's concerns over this.
And you don't think predators would go to what effort exactly? There are at least a couple of cases I can think of where blokes have been caught in the ladies committing voyeurism offences (IIRC) who had made no effort to change their appearance, but claimed to be trans when caught. Communal gender neutral loos (not bathrooms, we're not americans! ) would only make matters worse as they open up access to a whole new cohort of victims to those predators who aren't emboldened enough to access female only spaces.
I'd be in favour of gender neutral loos as additional single access provision, as it'd mean that as well as trans people who aren't comfortable using the facilities for their own sex, opposite sex carers could accompany the people they're caring for without needing to use the disabled loo, and you could put an additional baby change table in there for dads to use. However, they generally replace single sex provision instead, which has multiple disadvantages for women both in terms of safety and convenience, and that's before we get into the lazy "just rebadge the ladies and gents without replacing the urinals" problem. In addition, the requirement to have floor to ceiling doors and partitions to prevent phone over/under the divide filming means that if someone collapses in the cubical they're less likely to be discovered, which is a safety issue.
Yes but often that person focused element is forgotten and the humanity lost from the debate so wanted to state it front and centre.
No I wasn't saying that at all regarding hormones. I myself have low natural testosterone. The point around intersex was a wider one around gender fluidity to inform the conversation and explain my view that this can't be a simple black and white binary choice. I don't want to derail the thread as it isn't about intersex but I will respond to your specific points.
On the examples you asked for I have copied the below. "Combination of chromosomes: Everyone inherits sex-linked chromosomes from their parents. People who are male have XY chromosomes. People who are females have XX chromosomes. People who are intersex may have a mix of chromosomes, such as XXY. Or they may have some cells that are XY and some cells that are XX. Or they may have just one X chromosome (XO). Other combinations can occur too." The point being this is different from someone having XX chromosomes but male genitals or XY but female genitals.
I don't think you can exclude DSD from intersex as it can in a lot of cases cause a mismatch between chromosomes and genitals. 1% is on the high end of estimates (some have it as high as 1.7%) but from my reading in the past I believe lower estimates focus on one type of intersex or exclude a number of types of intersex rather than capture all the various different conditions under that umbrella.
To take it back to gender neutral bathrooms. I think the situations you are talking about can only arise if not implemented properly. Rebadging existing phacilities is certainly not doing it properly. And obiously there is potential for issues to arise in those cases and that women would be uncomfortable with that. A row of individual small rooms that are just like toilets at home including a sink in room is the only way I've experienced gender neutral toilets and is a nicer environment for all to do their business. And is no different to the loos on planes, trains or a row of portaloos at a big event.
In the bit in bold - can you back that up? I've read in the past that trans women are even more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than cis women.
I have two daughters (15 and 17) and one wife. I asked them last night if they would be comfortable with this. There was one universal response.
As part of my work I spend time in the UK offices of some of the worlds leading media and digital companies. I have seen a mix of single sex toilets and gender neutal toilets.
As a 50 something bloke I feel uncomfortable in the neutral ones, even if they have full height doors. I don't mind a bloke hearing me fart and shit, but I am conscious of a woman hearing that. Maybe its a generational thing and the younger generation are comfortable with it? My suspicion is that a female colleague, of whatever generation, doesn't want me to see that they have just done a really smelly shit as we wash our hands together.
I do wonder whether the view that a staff survey and discussion with colleagues suggests people prefer gender neutral toilets is simply a result of the fear people now have (and I think its very much a London thing) of being seen to somehow discriminate against anyone in the face of the ever present focus on EDI and associated virtue signalling.
A lot of people I know, in candid conversations, think its a load of bollocks, but know they cant be seen to disagree with EDI "groupthink".
Again though consider what I said about "proper implementation of this" none of those hypothetical issues would occur in the type of toilets I have described. I think a lot of people are thinking about the improper implementation of something and using that to decide its all a bad idea.
As I have said the only way I have experience gender neutral toilets is as individual rooms. This is pretty common in restaurants, my organisation have done this in 13 of our 14 offices nationwide (14th due for renovations this year). I had the same in previous offices and temporary offices while we were getting the renovation done. I had it once at a small concert venue (queues were actually pretty good).
I have genuinely never experienced any other type of gender neutral loos. Has anyone genuinely experienced them with urinals? Or where they have just rebadged the existing toilets? Seriously has anyone actually been in those?
I think that's what people picture when they hear the term but in my experience the reality is always something much better.
I have two daughters (15 and 17) and one wife. I asked them last night if they would be comfortable with this. There was one universal response.
As part of my work I spend time in the UK offices of some of the worlds leading media and digital companies. I have seen a mix of single sex toilets and gender neutal toilets.
As a 50 something bloke I feel uncomfortable in the neutral ones, even if they have full height doors. I don't mind a bloke hearing me fart and shit, but I am conscious of a woman hearing that. Maybe its a generational thing and the younger generation are comfortable with it? My suspicion is that a female colleague, of whatever generation, doesn't want me to see that they have just done a really smelly shit as we wash our hands together.
I do wonder whether the view that a staff survey and discussion with colleagues suggests people prefer gender neutral toilets is simply a result of the fear people now have (and I think its very much a London thing) of being seen to somehow discriminate against anyone in the face of the ever present focus on EDI and associated virtue signalling.
A lot of people I know, in candid conversations, think its a load of bollocks, but know they cant be seen to disagree with EDI "groupthink".
Again though consider what I said about "proper implementation of this" none of those hypothetical issues would occur in the type of toilets I have described. I think a lot of people are thinking about the improper implementation of something and using that to decide its all a bad idea.
As I have said the only way I have experience gender neutral toilets is as individual rooms. This is pretty common in restaurants, my organisation have done this in 13 of our 14 offices nationwide (14th due for renovations this year). I had the same in previous offices and temporary offices while we were getting the renovation done. I had it once at a small concert venue (queues were actually pretty good).
I have genuinely never experienced any other type of gender neutral loos. Has anyone genuinely experienced them with urinals? Or where they have just rebadged the existing toilets? Seriously has anyone actually been in those?
I think that's what people picture when they hear the term but in my experience the reality is always something much better.
This probably explains my confusion further up the thread. My experience has always been with this done "properly". I realise now that people think of something else when they hear the term. I apologise for my confusion/reaction to people we were thinking of different things.
Comments
I too have many women in my life who have been raped and sexually assaulted. Never by a trans person though.
I'm sure it has happened, but I don't recall any instances of women being assaulted in single cubicle plane toilets.
Common sense dictates that there is a greater chance of women being assaulted in areas where men are permitted as opposed to areas where men are not permitted.
Anyway, we've got all these men saying women should be more than happy to have men in the same toilets.
How about the men stop talking for women and hear some women's opinions?
My wife and I would respectfully disagree that gender neutral toilets are safer and a nicer experience for women than toilets for women.
My wife thinks it is dangerous for women (just double checked).
My work has tampons and sanitary towels in the gents
On gender neutral bathrooms - I said when implemented properly and I stand by that. Every time I've worked in offices with gender neutral toilets (a row of small rooms exactly like a small toilet at home) everyone has universally preferred it.
I AM TALKING ABOUT MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Entirely different to being in a unisex toliet in a club at 1am when most men (and women) would have been drinking or taking drugs.
MY COMMENTS ARE ABOUT BLOKES USING THE LADIES LOO/UNISEX TOILETS (not including single cubicles on planes and trains etc which are clearly pretty safe for women).
But if you say that every single woman, in every office that you have worked at, prefer gender neutral bathrooms, then I'll have to accept that.
(Although I find that very hard to believe and I'm also surprised that you would have asked the opinion of every single woman that you've worked with at all these different offices).
Why are you bringing me into this? As you've told me before, you're not your dad and as far as I'm aware we haven't ever had any crossed words.
If you've mistaken me for someone else then fair enough, but I'm not having that.
It's about time the women spoke up and spoke for themselves, instead of the men telling us that ALL women they have worked with prefer gender neutral toilets.
I don't blame them though. It's very common actually.
I'm guessing people giving the answer posters wanted to hear is because they're terrified of getting their ear chewed off and a lecture.
It's good for us to keep lecturing women and telling them what's good for them though, hopefully soon we can take the vote off them too and get back to the good old days
Another workplace when renovating the office space ran a staff survey on whether to change to gender neutral toilets and it was overwhelmingly positive and they made the change
As part of my work I spend time in the UK offices of some of the worlds leading media and digital companies. I have seen a mix of single sex toilets and gender neutal toilets.
As a 50 something bloke I feel uncomfortable in the neutral ones, even if they have full height doors. I don't mind a bloke hearing me fart and shit, but I am conscious of a woman hearing that. Maybe its a generational thing and the younger generation are comfortable with it? My suspicion is that a female colleague, of whatever generation, doesn't want me to see that they have just done a really smelly shit as we wash our hands together.
I do wonder whether the view that a staff survey and discussion with colleagues suggests people prefer gender neutral toilets is simply a result of the fear people now have (and I think its very much a London thing) of being seen to somehow discriminate against anyone in the face of the ever present focus on EDI and associated virtue signalling.
A lot of people I know, in candid conversations, think its a load of bollocks, but know they cant be seen to disagree with EDI "groupthink".
If the sight of a man entering the ladies toilet makes a woman feel uncomfortable, what has evidence got to do with it. You going to educate her that her concern is irrational are you. Good luck with that!
Unisex toilets effect men too so not sure why men aren't allowed a say. Losing the urinal will be make things far longer (look at the queues outside the ladies) and i don't get what the benefits are?
As for women, as someone who's had to use toilets on building sites for many years, it's something they won't enjoy.
The only upside is stops this nonsense about trans should use the disabled toilets ffs. That nonsense is why we could be heading to fix something that's been working perfectly for centuries.
No I wasn't saying that at all regarding hormones. I myself have low natural testosterone. The point around intersex was a wider one around gender fluidity to inform the conversation and explain my view that this can't be a simple black and white binary choice. I don't want to derail the thread as it isn't about intersex but I will respond to your specific points.
On the examples you asked for I have copied the below.
"Combination of chromosomes: Everyone inherits sex-linked chromosomes from their parents. People who are male have XY chromosomes. People who are females have XX chromosomes. People who are intersex may have a mix of chromosomes, such as XXY. Or they may have some cells that are XY and some cells that are XX. Or they may have just one X chromosome (XO). Other combinations can occur too." The point being this is different from someone having XX chromosomes but male genitals or XY but female genitals.
I don't think you can exclude DSD from intersex as it can in a lot of cases cause a mismatch between chromosomes and genitals. 1% is on the high end of estimates (some have it as high as 1.7%) but from my reading in the past I believe lower estimates focus on one type of intersex or exclude a number of types of intersex rather than capture all the various different conditions under that umbrella.
To take it back to gender neutral bathrooms. I think the situations you are talking about can only arise if not implemented properly. Rebadging existing phacilities is certainly not doing it properly. And obiously there is potential for issues to arise in those cases and that women would be uncomfortable with that. A row of individual small rooms that are just like toilets at home including a sink in room is the only way I've experienced gender neutral toilets and is a nicer environment for all to do their business. And is no different to the loos on planes, trains or a row of portaloos at a big event.
In the bit in bold - can you back that up? I've read in the past that trans women are even more likely to be a victim of sexual assault than cis women.
I think a lot of people are thinking about the improper implementation of something and using that to decide its all a bad idea.
As I have said the only way I have experience gender neutral toilets is as individual rooms. This is pretty common in restaurants, my organisation have done this in 13 of our 14 offices nationwide (14th due for renovations this year). I had the same in previous offices and temporary offices while we were getting the renovation done. I had it once at a small concert venue (queues were actually pretty good).
I have genuinely never experienced any other type of gender neutral loos. Has anyone genuinely experienced them with urinals? Or where they have just rebadged the existing toilets? Seriously has anyone actually been in those?
I think that's what people picture when they hear the term but in my experience the reality is always something much better.