Any film that has a notion that ‘the only good injun is a dead injun’ as some kind of underlying theme is automatically wrong in my opinion. I thought ‘Dances with Wolves ’ was underrated at the time, as with ‘The Last of the Mohicans’ but they developed the kind of sympathetic pro Aboriginal North American theme begun with ‘Broken Arrow’ which I appreciate. Our European diaspora conquered and crushed the indigenous people of North America and history is written by the winners. The recent Tom Hanks western ‘News of the World’ set in post civil war United States was thought provoking and a good film.
Why do you have to make everything political. Everyone's bored of it . It's just a bit of fun .
I’m not bored of Seth’s comments so speak for yourself.
A Pulitzer Prize winner called Arthur Kopit wrote a play called ‘Indians’ , which became a film called ‘Buffalo Bill and the Indians’. It is a play that explored the dichotomy of how Aboriginal North Americans have been portrayed and the references were to the Buffalo Bill Wild West shows rather than traditional westerns. It spawned interest in the issue that John Ford’s last Western ‘Cheyenne Autumn’ explored as well as books and films like ‘Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee’. Previously westerns would be about alleged heroes like General Custer or brave oppressed homesteaders attacked by ‘savages’. As a young man I was a frequent visitor to Horniman’s Museum and was intrigued by the few North American exhibits there including a beautiful sand picture preserved under a dome. When I was 16 I appeared in a production of Indians at Greenwich Theatre directed by Roger Sell. So for over fifty years I have carried with me an awareness of the history of conflict between the conquest of European people over Aboriginal North Americans. So my initial post, described by one of my enemies on Charlton Life as being ‘political’ was nothing of the sort, unless bringing a different perspective to the concept of ‘Westerns’ is some kind of political act.
Of course it is. Neo-Westerns are a subgenre of Westerns and they cover pretty much the same ground in a more modern time. Spoilers for an 8 year old film but:
Two outlaws fighting against corrupt banks and authority figures to carve out and keep their place in a territory that they are being driven out of. A remorseful outlaw driven by a sense of injustice and a desire to find his legacy in his son and his land. An old world sheriff looking to have one last showdown and ideally die in his job rather than retire and become a part of the new world. His part Native American part Mexican partner who reflects the themes of land theft and culture erasure back onto the American working class. There's oil being fought for, there's a standoff implying a final duel between the sheriff and the outlaw, there's confused morals based on a sense of fairness rather than law, there's even a posse at one point and it's all shot against the New Mexico landscape. It's more on the nose with it's themes than a lot of Westerns
Oh don't get me wrong I love the film. But I won't have it that it's a Western. Maybe it's just me, but "The West" was the uninhabited, inhospitable land the settlers moved into from the East, hence the term "Western". They road on horses and wagon trains until the railways came. I don't care how related the themes might be, if it drives a car it ain't a Western.
Edit: Sorry, I had to post hastily, foofman turned up. Obviously not uninhabited
Both the Searchers and Bad Day at Black Rock examine racism, that is a key part of their plotlines, in different ways. It is one of the things that makes them great films and great westerns.
Liberty Vallence is about the mythology of the West and maybe one of the first westerns to confront those myths. Again, one of the reasons it is a great film. That it stars Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne is part of that twist.
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
Another one I've thought of that I don't think I've seen mentioned is The Homesman. It's a real bummer but a great film
I am going to give that one a go at the weekend. I have been trying to ctach up with some of the new millenium westerns recently, as I had become a bit stuck in the Eastwood era. (I admit one of the faults of my ageing self is becoming set in my ways and resistent to new stuff) I have seen and enjoyed Bone Tomahawk, Hostiles, Django Unchained, The Hateful Eight and a few others.
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
The Rifleman
Had genuinely forgotten that one. Was that the one starring Doug McLure?
Another one I've thought of that I don't think I've seen mentioned is The Homesman. It's a real bummer but a great film
I am going to give that one a go at the weekend. I have been trying to ctach up with some of the new millenium westerns recently, as I had become a bit stuck in the Eastwood era. (I admit one of the faults of my ageing self is becoming set in my ways and resistent to new stuff) I have seen and enjoyed Bone Tomahawk, Hostiles, Django Unchained, The Hateful Eight and a few others.
Given the era you are looking at, you might like to watch "Son of the Morning Star", which follows the parallel lives of George Armstrong Custer and Crazy Horse and finishing just after the Battle of the Little Big Horn. It can be seen on YouTube.
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
The Rifleman
Had genuinely forgotten that one. Was that the one starring Doug McLure?
Thought I'd see Blazing Saddles get more love. That's a top 5 of all time for me!
When I saw it I thought it was a brilliant satire and one of the funniest films ever made. When I came to watch it much later with my children I found myself verbalising all sorts of caveats before they watched it. If I ever have grandchildren of an age to watch it, I'll swerve it because I'd be embarrassed if they thought grandad thinks it would be okay. Make of that what you will, I don't really want to get involved in a wider discussion. Interestingly Mel Brooks has described it as "an anti-racist film", but I bet nobody shows it anymore
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
I'm 68 and can add Branded, Bronco, Cheyenne, The Virginian, Pony Express, Laredo, The Big Valley (couldn't forget that one).
Some interesting choices and viewpoints coming out of a simple question. Just a point that for us of a certain age, Westerns were very much part of everyday life through TV.
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking. Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads. But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
The Rifleman
Had genuinely forgotten that one. Was that the one starring Doug McLure?
Chuck Connors
Thanks. I was thinking of The Virginian (though I confess I just googled it)
Anyone heard of a film called the Apple Dumpling Gang? Remember me and my brother used to walk up the Standard and rent it out D and G Video shop up there, years ago
Anyone heard of a film called the Apple Dumpling Gang? Remember me and my brother used to walk up the Standard and rent it out D and G Video shop up there, years ago
No but they used to have Debbie does Dallas which could be a western i suppose.
Comments
It is a play that explored the dichotomy of how Aboriginal North Americans have been portrayed and the references were to the Buffalo Bill Wild West shows rather than traditional westerns.
It spawned interest in the issue that John Ford’s last Western ‘Cheyenne Autumn’ explored as well as books and films like ‘Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee’.
Previously westerns would be about alleged heroes like General Custer or brave oppressed homesteaders attacked by ‘savages’.
As a young man I was a frequent visitor to Horniman’s Museum and was intrigued by the few North American exhibits there including a beautiful sand picture preserved under a dome.
When I was 16 I appeared in a production of Indians at Greenwich Theatre directed by Roger Sell. So for over fifty years I have carried with me an awareness of the history of conflict between the conquest of European people over Aboriginal North Americans.
So my initial post, described by one of my enemies on Charlton Life as being ‘political’ was nothing of the sort, unless bringing a different perspective to the concept of ‘Westerns’ is some kind of political act.
Outlaw Josie Wales
Unforgiven
the wild bunch
once upon a time in the west
2 reserves, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and the Long Riders.
Little Big Man
The Culpepper Cattle Company
The Searchers
Dances With Wolves
Paint your wagon
Shane
The good the bad & the ugly
But I won't have it that it's a Western.
Maybe it's just me, but "The West" was the uninhabited, inhospitable land the settlers moved into from the East, hence the term "Western".
They road on horses and wagon trains until the railways came.
I don't care how related the themes might be, if it drives a car it ain't a Western.
Edit: Sorry, I had to post hastily, foofman turned up.
Obviously not uninhabited
The Magnificent Seven
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
Ballad of Davy Crockett
Cat Balloo
Unforgiven
Blazing Saddles
The Searchers
My Darling Clementine
Liberty Vallence is about the mythology of the West and maybe one of the first westerns to confront those myths. Again, one of the reasons it is a great film. That it stars Jimmy Stewart and John Wayne is part of that twist.
Butch Cassidy is just a great buddy movie
We didn't have Star Wars (we just about had Star Trek) back in the 60s. But we did have Western heroes to watch nearly every night, the classic 50s Westerns were appearing on our TVs and, given it was marking its Centenary, the American Civil War was very much in our sightline through toys, games and (memorable) bubble gum cards.
I doubt anybody under 40 (maybe even 50) could name five TV Western series. I could probably roll off 10 without much effort.
That got me thinking.
Off the top of my head, Rawhide, Maverick, Bonanza, The High Chapperel, Alias Smith and Jones, The Monroes, Laramie. I am sure I have forgotten loads.
But I do come under the older age bracket (70)
I have been trying to ctach up with some of the new millenium westerns recently, as I had become a bit stuck in the Eastwood era. (I admit one of the faults of my ageing self is becoming set in my ways and resistent to new stuff)
I have seen and enjoyed Bone Tomahawk, Hostiles, Django Unchained, The Hateful Eight and a few others.
The Rifleman
Was that the one starring Doug McLure?
When I came to watch it much later with my children I found myself verbalising all sorts of caveats before they watched it.
If I ever have grandchildren of an age to watch it, I'll swerve it because I'd be embarrassed if they thought grandad thinks it would be okay.
Make of that what you will, I don't really want to get involved in a wider discussion.
Interestingly Mel Brooks has described it as "an anti-racist film", but I bet nobody shows it anymore
I was thinking of The Virginian (though I confess I just googled it)
Good, Bad & The Ugly
Fistful of Dollars
Butch Cassidy
Magnificent Seven