With 16, 4 groups of 4, top 2 through to quarters.
With 24, 6 groups of 4, top go through to quarters, best 4 second placed teams have an eliminator match and the 2 winners get into the quarters.
The 24 concept would be interesting as one slip up from a bigger nation could spell disaster, especially in a group of death where you could have 2 top tier teams in it and a second tier team pulling off an upset.
Problem is the 21st-24th teams in the tournament will be utter dross
Trouble is the bottom teams may be way off the top teams but World rugby continually discriminates against smaller nations both financially and in playing time against the bigger nations. If they don’t play in the World Cup they will never develop. Japan have improved immeasurably and I think Uruguay are on that same path.
In football we had the qualifying groups before tournaments that allowed the Icelands etc to get battered by the bigger nations but they developed and got better and better and now can compete. That’s what needs to happen in rugby but too many old posh farts in the way. Bill Beaumont that’s you. A couple of years ago he was up against an ex young Argentinian player called Augustine Pichot for the head job at world rugby who had a very different and modern vision for rugby that emphasised developing smaller nations. Of course the traditional wealthy powerhouses of rugby voted for Beaumont.
also a couple of brief interviews with Irish players
Problem will be that the answer to the key question in determining bans will be 'no.'
Is he English? Yes ban him, no let him off.
a wee bit parochial, BUT you might have a point
On the same day as, I think, a Tongan got a four match ban, following a red card (two matches taken off the standard penalty for contrition and previously very good disciplinary record), I think the parochialism isn't warranted.
World Rugby are determined to clamp down on dangerous high tackles, there will be more suspensions if there are more red cards.
also a couple of brief interviews with Irish players
Problem will be that the answer to the key question in determining bans will be 'no.'
Is he English? Yes ban him, no let him off.
a wee bit parochial, BUT you might have a point
On the same day as, I think, a Tongan got a four match ban, following a red card (two matches taken off the standard penalty for contrition and previously very good disciplinary record), I think the parochialism isn't warranted.
World Rugby are determined to clamp down on dangerous high tackles, there will be more suspensions if there are more red cards.
and a Kiwi and Namibian have also received straight red cards .. there have been inconsistencies, Kriel the SA centre only 'yellowed'; v Ireland for example, and a Portuguese player got a dodgy red after a review .. in any sport, in any aspect of life though there will always be different interpretations and opinions, not too much to get too steamed up about i m o
This was taken from an article where the Coach of Chile highlighted the financial disparity bewtween tier 1 and tier 2 nations. World rugby is a very private club for the elite:
Chile qualified for Rugby World Cup 2023 as Americas 2. Los Cóndores defeated Brazil and lost to Uruguay before facing Canada home-and-away in an elimination series. Chile won to advance to face the USA. Los Cóndores lost at home but then made history in Denver, Colorado to qualify.
England did not compete in qualifying. The top three per pool from the previous Rugby World Cup qualify automatically. This means 60% of the places are determined before the knock-out stages of the prior Rugby World Cup have begun.
Hours before Chile faced England in Lille, Portugal and Georgia competed to a 18-18 draw in Toulouse. Georgia defeated both Italy and Wales in 2022; however, there is no pathway for Georgia into the Six Nations and no requirement for any of the six to qualify so long as they finish in the top three of their pools.
Fiji defeated Australia 22-15 in St. Étienne. The teams occasionally play but the matches are limited to friendlies; there is no Oceania Cup involving the top teams from the region. The best from Asia (Japan) could join Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, Samoa, Tonga in a Six Nations doubling as qualifying.
A lack of innovation comes hand in hand with protecting the British & Irish Lions. British & Irish Lions tours continue to tour the same three teams on a rotational basis. World Rugby should be more concerned about the global game than British & Irish Lions tours. The Lions do not play in the Olympics nor in World Cups.
The 2025 British & Irish Lions tour is to Australia. The same country will host Rugby World Cup 2027 and also hosted Rugby World Cup 2003. It went from Australia 2003 to France 2007 and will go from France 2023 to Australia 2027. Italy’s bid for 2015 and 2019 was unsuccessful. Argentina and Italy pulled-out of bidding against France for 2023.
World Rugby’s three key people are Chairman Bill Beaumont (England), Vice Chairman John Jeffrey (Scotland) and CEO Alan Gilpin (England). Beaumont played a total 41 caps for England and the Lions. Three of his caps were against apartheid South Africa. He played 8 countries but never played against a Tier 2 team. Gilpin erroneously stated that Uruguay will gain from eligibility changes.
Chile face Argentina in Nantes in their final pool match of their inaugural Rugby World Cup campaign. The referee is not a Spanish-Speaker. World Rugby did not appoint Spanish-Speaking referees for the World Cup. World Rugby last did so in 2003. No Argentine referee has ever officiated a Rugby Championship match nor a Tier 1 vs Tier 1 match during Beaumont’s years in charge.
also a couple of brief interviews with Irish players
Problem will be that the answer to the key question in determining bans will be 'no.'
Is he English? Yes ban him, no let him off.
a wee bit parochial, BUT you might have a point
On the same day as, I think, a Tongan got a four match ban, following a red card (two matches taken off the standard penalty for contrition and previously very good disciplinary record), I think the parochialism isn't warranted.
World Rugby are determined to clamp down on dangerous high tackles, there will be more suspensions if there are more red cards.
and a Kiwi and Namibian have also received straight red cards .. there have been inconsistencies, Kriel the SA centre only 'yellowed'; v Ireland for example, and a Portuguese player got a dodgy red after a review .. in any sport, in any aspect of life though there will always be different interpretations and opinions, not too much to get too steamed up about i m o
For what it's worth, I agree with you.
As is often the case, consistency is a big problem.
Another Namibian red-carded today, with two further yellows, one for each side, in a surprisingly open and entertaining game, though Namibia faded badly in the second half (easy to do when down to 13 players).
The difference between Tier 1's fully prepared and professional teams, able to sustain their effort for the full 80 minutes, and the rest is stark.
World Rugby needs to build on this tournament to help level the playing field for those outside the top tier.
Weirdly England did have to qualify for the World Cup in 1999, from a 3 team group alongside Italy and the Netherlands. We beat the Netherlands 110 nil and then squeezed past Italy (23-15) to get through. Both games (in fact all of Englands qualifying group games) were played in Huddersfield oddly.
This was taken from an article where the Coach of Chile highlighted the financial disparity bewtween tier 1 and tier 2 nations. World rugby is a very private club for the elite:
Chile qualified for Rugby World Cup 2023 as Americas 2. Los Cóndores defeated Brazil and lost to Uruguay before facing Canada home-and-away in an elimination series. Chile won to advance to face the USA. Los Cóndores lost at home but then made history in Denver, Colorado to qualify.
England did not compete in qualifying. The top three per pool from the previous Rugby World Cup qualify automatically. This means 60% of the places are determined before the knock-out stages of the prior Rugby World Cup have begun.
Hours before Chile faced England in Lille, Portugal and Georgia competed to a 18-18 draw in Toulouse. Georgia defeated both Italy and Wales in 2022; however, there is no pathway for Georgia into the Six Nations and no requirement for any of the six to qualify so long as they finish in the top three of their pools.
Fiji defeated Australia 22-15 in St. Étienne. The teams occasionally play but the matches are limited to friendlies; there is no Oceania Cup involving the top teams from the region. The best from Asia (Japan) could join Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, Samoa, Tonga in a Six Nations doubling as qualifying.
A lack of innovation comes hand in hand with protecting the British & Irish Lions. British & Irish Lions tours continue to tour the same three teams on a rotational basis. World Rugby should be more concerned about the global game than British & Irish Lions tours. The Lions do not play in the Olympics nor in World Cups.
The 2025 British & Irish Lions tour is to Australia. The same country will host Rugby World Cup 2027 and also hosted Rugby World Cup 2003. It went from Australia 2003 to France 2007 and will go from France 2023 to Australia 2027. Italy’s bid for 2015 and 2019 was unsuccessful. Argentina and Italy pulled-out of bidding against France for 2023.
World Rugby’s three key people are Chairman Bill Beaumont (England), Vice Chairman John Jeffrey (Scotland) and CEO Alan Gilpin (England). Beaumont played a total 41 caps for England and the Lions. Three of his caps were against apartheid South Africa. He played 8 countries but never played against a Tier 2 team. Gilpin erroneously stated that Uruguay will gain from eligibility changes.
Chile face Argentina in Nantes in their final pool match of their inaugural Rugby World Cup campaign. The referee is not a Spanish-Speaker. World Rugby did not appoint Spanish-Speaking referees for the World Cup. World Rugby last did so in 2003. No Argentine referee has ever officiated a Rugby Championship match nor a Tier 1 vs Tier 1 match during Beaumont’s years in charge.
Defo a lack of representation....a spanish speaking ref should have been selected
far too many of the games have been no contests .. Namibia, Romania, even Chile, Samoa and Uruguay just can't compete with the long standing nations with professional leagues and thousands of pro or semi-pro players .. this is not the way to develop the sport worldwide, 60/70/90 hidings by the top nation's usually second strings is no way to boost confidence. There needs to be a rethink for the next World Cup, though I doubt there will be one worth the name
If Rugby is serious about expanding as a sport, there needs to be a programme of second tier countries gaining experience of playing the top nations. At the moment there's no mechanism for that and the top countries aren't interested in supporting it. Partly because they make a lot of their money from the big matches and don't want to miss out on that. If you compare the current world cup to what it would have looked like 30 years ago, hardly any new countries have emerged. Argentina, Italy, Fiji, Japan to an extent, not sure if there are any others. We criticise FIFA and UEFA a lot, and quite rightly, but they are far better at developing the game in non-traditional countries than this.
The 5 team groups are a nonsense. Crazy that none of England, Wales or France are playing this weekend. Indeed none of the games this weekend look interesting for a neutral either, resulting in a complete drop off of public attention.
If Rugby is serious about expanding as a sport, there needs to be a programme of second tier countries gaining experience of playing the top nations. At the moment there's no mechanism for that and the top countries aren't interested in supporting it. Partly because they make a lot of their money from the big matches and don't want to miss out on that. If you compare the current world cup to what it would have looked like 30 years ago, hardly any new countries have emerged. Argentina, Italy, Fiji, Japan to an extent, not sure if there are any others. We criticise FIFA and UEFA a lot, and quite rightly, but they are far better at developing the game in non-traditional countries than this.
I think it’s the fans as well… there’s too much tradition in tournaments like the 5/6 Nations that there’d be uproar if they invited Georgia/Romania/Portugal to participate as an expansion.
But that’s the sort of thing that has to happen IMO.
Make it an eight team tournament with two groups of four, a semi final and a final. That keeps it to five matches maximum for any team. The top three from each group qualify automatically for the next edition and each group loser goes into a qualifying tournament played in the autumn to keep it fresh and give opportunities to other nations.
If Rugby is serious about expanding as a sport, there needs to be a programme of second tier countries gaining experience of playing the top nations. At the moment there's no mechanism for that and the top countries aren't interested in supporting it. Partly because they make a lot of their money from the big matches and don't want to miss out on that. If you compare the current world cup to what it would have looked like 30 years ago, hardly any new countries have emerged. Argentina, Italy, Fiji, Japan to an extent, not sure if there are any others. We criticise FIFA and UEFA a lot, and quite rightly, but they are far better at developing the game in non-traditional countries than this.
I think it’s the fans as well… there’s too much tradition in tournaments like the 5/6 Nations that there’d be uproar if they invited Georgia/Romania/Portugal to participate as an expansion.
But that’s the sort of thing that has to happen IMO.
Make it an eight team tournament with two groups of four, a semi final and a final. That keeps it to five matches maximum for any team. The top three from each group qualify automatically for the next edition and each group loser goes into a qualifying tournament played in the autumn to keep it fresh and give opportunities to other nations.
FWIW, I think what's needed is a mix of encouraging rugby improvement by invitation of effectively Tier 2 national sides into an expanded URC, World Rugby supporting an Americas 6/8 Nations, requiring a minimum number of Tests per year by Tier 1 nations against Tier 2 opposition (& Lions tours as well), and a commitment to an expanded 6 Nations (either 2 pools or 2 divisions, with a play-off for promotion/relegation) in c10 years time. All of which needs to be backed up by funding for professional standards in training, fitness, pay, etc.
The fans can get used to that, as well as visits to previously unvisited cities, if the groundwork is done first.
Georgia look to have the tournaments top penalty goal marksman .. almost nowhere on the field is safe lol .. Fiji so far are very one dimensional, surprising and disappointing .. still, a long way to go
Fijian gets a yellow and referral .. i m o that was an obvious red .. Fiji hang on for a win 17-12 .. VERY unconvincing
Scotland having fun against Romania, who look tired TBH.
I keep thinking passes are forward, but it's not a feeling shared by the officials.
I do think Wayne Barnes keeps penalty advantages going for too long though.
agreed, IF the side with the penalty make (say) 30 metres/yards from the pen spot, it should be automatic penalty over .. not just Barnes, all referees do the same.. it must be a directive from wherever directives come from
A monumental yawn so far I’m afraid. Will only get interesting at the quarter final stage. A glimmer of interest at the Scotland v Ireland “play off” which will only end one way and should have been avoided with a more realistic group stage draw in the first place. Australia have provided the odd chuckle too but in all honesty the first four weeks of this spectacle have been a waste of time. Just to be hoped that there are no major injuries to key players before the real action starts. Difficult to see how rugby achieves lasting expansion beyond the big eight or nine nations. It’s taken over 20 years for Italy to be credible in the six nations and they are only just so if we are being honest.
Scotland having fun against Romania, who look tired TBH.
I keep thinking passes are forward, but it's not a feeling shared by the officials.
I do think Wayne Barnes keeps penalty advantages going for too long though.
I loved watching Darcy Graham Side stepping and jinking and his sheer pace.
In football vernacular, the South Africa, Scotland, Ireland section would be called the group of death. I don't think I have heard that cliché this time but it certainly is with 3 strong teams permed together.
Ireland having won 3 out of 3 should be enjoying the craic in their final group game not worrying that if they have a bad day they could be gazumped.
Despite losing their 1st match against France, New Zealand are always the team to beat with their history and pedigree and memories of the late Jonah Lomu scoring 4 tries against England in the semi final in 1995 and flattening Mike Catt are ingrained in my mind.
Definitely Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and home advantage France were the perm 1 from 4 to be the likely winner but at least England, Wales and Scotland have found some form and been competitive so far.
The group stages are very long and there may need to be a rethink and have even number groups.
I have to say that I've been really impressed with Portugal, if they had more opportunities against top teams they'd be some side.
Would getting smashed by England, Wales, Ireland and France every year improve them?
Or would getting players from their bigger clubs into the professional European leagues improve them? Or ultimately setting up their own professional league.
Did Turkey improve at football from getting thrashed in qualifying for major tournaments or because they improved their own leagues?
Did Iceland improve because they got thrashed regularly or because they got more players into top academy set ups at a young age?
I have to say that I've been really impressed with Portugal, if they had more opportunities against top teams they'd be some side.
Would getting smashed by England, Wales, Ireland and France every year improve them?
Or would getting players from their bigger clubs into the professional European leagues improve them? Or ultimately setting up their own professional league.
Did Turkey improve at football from getting thrashed in qualifying for major tournaments or because they improved their own leagues?
Did Iceland improve because they got thrashed regularly or because they got more players into top academy set ups at a young age?
I've stated a few times how I think Tier 2 Nations can be improved (but I'm always happy to repeat myself ad nauseam).
Everything is dependent on funding and other support coming from World Rugby (assuming that they view growing and strengthening the game as part of their remit).
None of the Tier 2 teams will be able to support professional national leagues without achieving a significant increase in the number of players - and even then, the problems of English professional rugby suggest that even having a very large pool (relative to other European nations) is not necessarily a panacea.
They all need more Tests against Tier 1 teams, which World Rugby really needs to push, and, for countries like Portugal, Spain, Georgia, Romania and Namibia, I think that the best option in the short term would be to invite teams (effectively the national side) into an expanded URC competition (though it wouldn't be all in one go). The URC could, in effect, expand in a way that ensures it becomes the vehicle for spreading professional rugby across Europe.
In Europe, there should be an ambition to extend the 6 Nations in the future (either by having groups or two divisions), while for the Americas (and possibly Africa, if Sevens Rugby is any guide to the potential) a similar competition might be created. And Super Rugby should have to expand as well.
Obviously, everyone will do what I tell them to do.
Comments
In football we had the qualifying groups before tournaments that allowed the Icelands etc to get battered by the bigger nations but they developed and got better and better and now can compete. That’s what needs to happen in rugby but too many old posh farts in the way. Bill Beaumont that’s you. A couple of years ago he was up against an ex young Argentinian player called Augustine Pichot for the head job at world rugby who had a very different and modern vision for rugby that emphasised developing smaller nations. Of course the traditional wealthy powerhouses of rugby voted for Beaumont.
World Rugby are determined to clamp down on dangerous high tackles, there will be more suspensions if there are more red cards.
Chile qualified for Rugby World Cup 2023 as Americas 2. Los Cóndores defeated Brazil and lost to Uruguay before facing Canada home-and-away in an elimination series. Chile won to advance to face the USA. Los Cóndores lost at home but then made history in Denver, Colorado to qualify.
England did not compete in qualifying. The top three per pool from the previous Rugby World Cup qualify automatically. This means 60% of the places are determined before the knock-out stages of the prior Rugby World Cup have begun.
Hours before Chile faced England in Lille, Portugal and Georgia competed to a 18-18 draw in Toulouse. Georgia defeated both Italy and Wales in 2022; however, there is no pathway for Georgia into the Six Nations and no requirement for any of the six to qualify so long as they finish in the top three of their pools.
Fiji defeated Australia 22-15 in St. Étienne. The teams occasionally play but the matches are limited to friendlies; there is no Oceania Cup involving the top teams from the region. The best from Asia (Japan) could join Australia, Fiji, New Zealand, Samoa, Tonga in a Six Nations doubling as qualifying.
A lack of innovation comes hand in hand with protecting the British & Irish Lions. British & Irish Lions tours continue to tour the same three teams on a rotational basis. World Rugby should be more concerned about the global game than British & Irish Lions tours. The Lions do not play in the Olympics nor in World Cups.
The 2025 British & Irish Lions tour is to Australia. The same country will host Rugby World Cup 2027 and also hosted Rugby World Cup 2003. It went from Australia 2003 to France 2007 and will go from France 2023 to Australia 2027. Italy’s bid for 2015 and 2019 was unsuccessful. Argentina and Italy pulled-out of bidding against France for 2023.
World Rugby’s three key people are Chairman Bill Beaumont (England), Vice Chairman John Jeffrey (Scotland) and CEO Alan Gilpin (England). Beaumont played a total 41 caps for England and the Lions. Three of his caps were against apartheid South Africa. He played 8 countries but never played against a Tier 2 team. Gilpin erroneously stated that Uruguay will gain from eligibility changes.
Chile face Argentina in Nantes in their final pool match of their inaugural Rugby World Cup campaign. The referee is not a Spanish-Speaker. World Rugby did not appoint Spanish-Speaking referees for the World Cup. World Rugby last did so in 2003. No Argentine referee has ever officiated a Rugby Championship match nor a Tier 1 vs Tier 1 match during Beaumont’s years in charge.
As is often the case, consistency is a big problem.
Another Namibian red-carded today, with two further yellows, one for each side, in a surprisingly open and entertaining game, though Namibia faded badly in the second half (easy to do when down to 13 players).
The difference between Tier 1's fully prepared and professional teams, able to sustain their effort for the full 80 minutes, and the rest is stark.
World Rugby needs to build on this tournament to help level the playing field for those outside the top tier.
Does that get them an extra bonus point?
Tonight is more the All Blacks playing very well rather than Italy playing badly in my opinion.
But that’s the sort of thing that has to happen IMO.
Make it an eight team tournament with two groups of four, a semi final and a final. That keeps it to five matches maximum for any team. The top three from each group qualify automatically for the next edition and each group loser goes into a qualifying tournament played in the autumn to keep it fresh and give opportunities to other nations.
The fans can get used to that, as well as visits to previously unvisited cities, if the groundwork is done first.
Fijian gets a yellow and referral .. i m o that was an obvious red .. Fiji hang on for a win 17-12 .. VERY unconvincing
I keep thinking passes are forward, but it's not a feeling shared by the officials.
I do think Wayne Barnes keeps penalty advantages going for too long though.
I loved watching Darcy Graham Side stepping and jinking and his sheer pace.
In football vernacular, the South Africa, Scotland, Ireland section would be called the group of death. I don't think I have heard that cliché this time but it certainly is with 3 strong teams permed together.
Ireland having won 3 out of 3 should be enjoying the craic in their final group game not worrying that if they have a bad day they could be gazumped.
Despite losing their 1st match against France, New Zealand are always the team to beat with their history and pedigree and memories of the late Jonah Lomu scoring 4 tries against England in the semi final in 1995 and flattening Mike Catt are ingrained in my mind.
Definitely Ireland, South Africa, New Zealand and home advantage France were the perm 1 from 4 to be the likely winner but at least England, Wales and Scotland have found some form and been competitive so far.
The group stages are very long and there may need to be a rethink and have even number groups.
Or would getting players from their bigger clubs into the professional European leagues improve them? Or ultimately setting up their own professional league.
Did Turkey improve at football from getting thrashed in qualifying for major tournaments or because they improved their own leagues?
Did Iceland improve because they got thrashed regularly or because they got more players into top academy set ups at a young age?
Everything is dependent on funding and other support coming from World Rugby (assuming that they view growing and strengthening the game as part of their remit).
None of the Tier 2 teams will be able to support professional national leagues without achieving a significant increase in the number of players - and even then, the problems of English professional rugby suggest that even having a very large pool (relative to other European nations) is not necessarily a panacea.
They all need more Tests against Tier 1 teams, which World Rugby really needs to push, and, for countries like Portugal, Spain, Georgia, Romania and Namibia, I think that the best option in the short term would be to invite teams (effectively the national side) into an expanded URC competition (though it wouldn't be all in one go). The URC could, in effect, expand in a way that ensures it becomes the vehicle for spreading professional rugby across Europe.
In Europe, there should be an ambition to extend the 6 Nations in the future (either by having groups or two divisions), while for the Americas (and possibly Africa, if Sevens Rugby is any guide to the potential) a similar competition might be created. And Super Rugby should have to expand as well.
Obviously, everyone will do what I tell them to do.