I don't think a new centre back is really going to help that much. It can't hurt, but I think getting a functional defensive system is far more important than the individual players, as long as they're up to a certain standard. Our friends Paddy McCarthy and Simon Francis are evidence of that; are they secretly great players who we ruined or are they players who slotted in to a system that worked and were able to play beyond themselves? Who had Chris Basham and Jack O'Connell down as top level Premier League centre backs before they briefly found their system as overlapping centre backs? Our biggest issue for years has been the gaps that open up between the lines and runners arriving late in our box completely unattended. Teams can drive through the middle or in that gap between the full back and centre back and get at us, and players drift into the box unmarked to get a free shot at goal. We haven't been coherent out of possession or in transition for years and what Holden really needs to work on is why that is and drill methods of dealing with it into the players. Getting in two quality wing backs who can read the defensive side of the game is part of it, and Dabo and Edun could be those players, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the longer term plan is to have both Dobson and Taylor sitting to provide that extra bit of cover. Then we can move as a unit and if everyone has cover and numbers around them defensively then suddenly the exposure to the opportunities to have an individual error immediately leading to a goal will reduce, That will take time and we haven't seen huge evidence of it yet, but Holden needs to get it right because it will be what defines his time with us, whether he can stop the constant shipping of goals the moment something goes wrong with the ball
This. 1000% this. We have four senior CBs who have shown they can perform in this league, and in two cases, the league above. We have two talented young CBs as cover. We aren't shipping goals or ceding possession because one of our CBs isn't left footed. We're doing it because our CBs are getting isolated 1-v-1 with forwards far too often. And that isn't a failure of the CBs (how they handle it sometimes is), it's a failure of team structure and setup.
CBs is one of the areas (along with midfield) where I think just about every other team in the division is envious of us. It's very good for League One.
Terrell Thomas made 2 appearances for reading in the championship. Lolyd Jones 4 for Luton bit of a push to say they performed there! Hector, Thomas, Ness and Jones performed to a 10th and 20th finish in league one last season.
We only have 3 experienced centre backs. Hector (341 apps) is the stand out but is still getting up to speed, it's then Thomas (171 apps) and Jones (165 apps). Backed up by Ness (48 apps) and Deji (37 apps) Hector picks up a big injury then we're not looking so smart at the back. Thomas and Jones still have less appearances than hector combined.
Yep they all need to learn to defend better as a unit and maybe Dabo will make a difference if he signs but, I doubt every other team in the division are envious of our CB's, having hector as an option maybe but the whole lot, as a unit, not so much.
We need a better option than Thomas and Jones in there, we won't get it, but we most definitely do need it in (my opinion)
I’ve never seen Cosgrove and have no idea if he’s any good. He did finish second in the Scottish premier’s scoring charts to Morelos a few years back though.
We don't need Cosgrove to score goals, we need him to win/hold up the ball so that May can score goals (and hopefully Leaburn too once fit).
It wouldn't be super exciting as signings go but it makes sense to me.
I don’t want a striker that doesn’t score goals thanks 🤣
I mean he did score goals in this league last time out, 8 goals in 33 games is 1 in 4 ish which is pretty good. If having him up means May has another 20 goal season that's really not bad, if Leaburn can reach double figures then I'd say its probably not going to be goals scored that are the problem - it's the other end.
Weren't we one of the higher scorers in the division last season? And we've now signed one of the most prolific strikers in the division to add to that.
Weren't we one of the higher scorers in the division last season? And we've now signed one of the most prolific strikers in the division to add to that.
Goals aren't the problem
We then lost our top scorer, and the only other player to hit double figures is injured.
Weren't we one of the higher scorers in the division last season? And we've now signed one of the most prolific strikers in the division to add to that.
Goals aren't the problem
Still need to have enough strikers, which we currently don’t. May is at his best in a two. We can’t play him as a lone striker and expect him to score 20+ as he has done in the last two seasons.
I don't mind a striker who doesn't score loads if they have great link up play and keep defenders busy. The problem with Cosgrove is that the fans of every club he's played for say he's lazy and doesn't put himself about anywhere near as much as he should for a big man.
Yeah and I don’t mind goalkeepers that can’t save! 🤣 good partnerships rely on both scoring, Bright etc would chip in their fair share
12 goals alongside a 20 goal a season striker is fine. If he can replicate that it would be plenty, it's his all round play I'm worried about
Not against a Prem/champ young loanee at all but they tend to be smaller quicker strikers than target man types.
Unless it's someone like a Josh Coburn from Middlesbrough
Yep I agree a young player like that is harder to find, but if the budget is there to attract the better loanees (questionable whether it is of course) I would imagine we’ve explored the options available for that role.
I get the arguments for signing Cosgrove, I just wouldn’t be as confident he’d replicate what he did in a very good Plymouth side. If he was that effective they’d probably have wanted to bring him back.
I also don’t see him coming here with the intention of covering Leaburn. There seems to be plenty of L1 interest, he’ll be going somehow to get regular football.
Strikers shouldn’t only be judged on goals but we need players to fit what we’re trying to build. We obviously need height and strength up front, but we don’t need another Stockley who’s immobile and can’t play his part in the press - if one player can’t support it then it can quickly fall apart. We’ve intentionally gone for mobile players this summer, does Cosgrove offer that and if not is he good enough for it to not be much of an issue?
I absolutely agree with all of this! There was some rumours we'd asked West Ham about Divin Mubama but that had been turned down due to their striker situation.
Someone like Cosgrove surely wouldn't come in to be Miles backup because neither him or Birmingham would ever agree to that when he could go elsewhere in this league and start week in week out.
Mobile players is a really really good point and seems to be something that Holden has really honed in on , all the signings we've made so far seem to be very mobile players that can get around the pitch and play in a pressing style.
Weren't we one of the higher scorers in the division last season? And we've now signed one of the most prolific strikers in the division to add to that.
Goals aren't the problem
We then lost our top scorer, and the only other player to hit double figures is injured.
But that's the point we've replaced JRS' goals with May (hopefully)
Leaburn was injured for parts of last season too.
The two Campbells, when fit, could score 12-15 goals between them.
I agree we need another striker, but focussing on whether or not they can score 20 goals is too simplistic, if they only score 5 but provide the play and opportunities for May to get 25 that's the job done
I get why people are negative about cosgrove as a player like that on loan is still exactly the same type/level of player we would of gone for under TS and Gallen etc
I think people me included were hoping under this new lot for finally abit of money being spent and proven quality being brought in to show some ambition 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Not against a Prem/champ young loanee at all but they tend to be smaller quicker strikers than target man types.
Unless it's someone like a Josh Coburn from Middlesbrough
Yep I agree a young player like that is harder to find, but if the budget is there to attract the better loanees (questionable whether it is of course) I would imagine we’ve explored the options available for that role.
I get the arguments for signing Cosgrove, I just wouldn’t be as confident he’d replicate what he did in a very good Plymouth side. If he was that effective they’d probably have wanted to bring him back.
I also don’t see him coming here with the intention of covering Leaburn. There seems to be plenty of L1 interest, he’ll be going somehow to get regular football.
Strikers shouldn’t only be judged on goals but we need players to fit what we’re trying to build. We obviously need height and strength up front, but we don’t need another Stockley who’s immobile and can’t play his part in the press - if one player can’t support it then it can quickly fall apart. We’ve intentionally gone for mobile players this summer, does Cosgrove offer that and if not is he good enough for it to not be much of an issue?
I absolutely agree with all of this! There was some rumours we'd asked West Ham about Divin Mubama but that had been turned down due to their striker situation.
Someone like Cosgrove surely wouldn't come in to be Miles backup because neither him or Birmingham would ever agree to that when he could go elsewhere in this league and start week in week out.
Mobile players is a really really good point and seems to be something that Holden has really honed in on , all the signings we've made so far seem to be very mobile players that can get around the pitch and play in a pressing style.
Birmingham won't care whether we play him or not, or play him in goal. He's an unwanted player, not a talented kid they're nurturing.
I'd say central midfield, on paper (I know I know) is where we stand up to every other team in the league. Dobson, Taylor, Camara, Fraser is a quartet any team would love to have, and to top it off we have the emergence of Anderson.
On paper maybe but three of them aren’t fully fit . Fraser I believe is good against weaker sides and goes missing against anyone competitive , Taylor seemingly is one of the modern players who takes an age to get fit . Camara is evidently quality but can’t play every game . At this stage , I can’t commit to whether this midfield takes you up. Dobson is the only banker .
Not convinced either. Fraser looked very good in the pre seasons, but that just backs up what you’re saying. I think most of us, including me, tend to underestimate opposition players a little bit.
Hopefully Camara will end up being able to play every game, and let’s hope Taylor progresses well as he finds his fitness. Anderson will hopefully go from strength to strength over the next two or three years as well.
I'm sure that he probably will, sadly I doubt he will be with us this time next year if he continues the progress he has shown this summer.
People are very harsh on Cosgrove but I don't know if people have looked into his contributions beyond his goal record. I think there's a general negativity towards big lump type strikers even when they're effective, people want mobile goalscorers. What we need is players who can work together though and May needs a player who can help the ball stick up top before it gets to him. We've got a 20 goal striker in the line-up, we need someone to chip in with a few himself and provide for May. Leaburn will do that when he's fit but we need an alternative too as we've seen. Cosgrove had a really good season for Plymouth. 8 goals and 2 assists in 1,307 minutes, which is a goal every 163 minutes. A goal every 1.8 full games, that's pretty good for a player primarily used for impact or as a rotation option. Plymouth brought him on a lot, he started 13 games of 33, scoring in 3 of those starts and getting both assists in 2 of them. His contributions when he came on were generally game-changing, including getting 2 goals against Derby despite only being on for 15 minutes. His goals were the odd goal in 4 games, 5 if you count the one where he got a goal and an assist in a 3-1 win. For a player who was mostly used to come on and change games he actually had a very effective season and contributed to a team that ran away with the L1 title. He might look like a galoot and not get pulses racing but we need a rotation option for Leaburn who seems to be quite injury prone and I think bringing in the bloke who did that job effectively for the league champions wouldn't be the daftest move going to be honest.
I get that, just concerned he’s one of those average players lifted by playing in a very good Plymouth team. I think we can potentially find better with a young Prem loanee - it’s more of a gamble but if it works you can end up with a player who by the end of the season is too good for L1. With this squad I don’t think we’ll get promoted if our last few signings are players who “can do a job”.
The thing with that though is I think Cosgrove is a cog in that very good team rather than a passenger. Honestly, look at that Plymouth team that absolutely romped to the title and tell me which of those players any of us thought were title winners in August 2022. Ryan Hardie was an average journeyman who had had his first ever 10+ goal season the year before. Morgan Whittaker hadn't cut it at Championship level and looked ok for Lincoln the season before. Bali Mumba didn't do enough in the Championshi for Peterborough so his next loan was a league down, Finn Azaz had a couple of L2 loan seasons, Nial Ennis had scored 10 goals in 2 seasons previously. None of their defenders were really ones you'd look at as top L1 players. But everything came together, everyone was the right piece in the puzzle to get the job done and Cosgrove who was their 4th highest scorer last season I think was part of that rather than a player lifted by the genius around him. I don't think that Dan Scarr whose record looks a lot like O'Connell's is so incredibly good he lifted Cosgrove above his level. At least I hope not. What they were was the right players in the right roles for the right team. We need a physical presence up front who can hold up the ball and allow May to cause damage further up the pitch rather than having to chase, come deep and run off the ball away from goal constantly. We don't need Cosgrove to be the second coming of Yann, we need him to complement the style we're trying to implement, and on the face of it that's what he did at Plymouth in a similar role last season. And it worked. Maybe he's terrible and we won't get him anyway, but honestly I think I'd rather have a few players who aren't the absolute best in the league but actually fit the system than a team of Charlie Kirks who individually have the right stats but don't fit into anything like the system we're trying to play. The real pressure is on putting together that coherent system, without that we're not getting anywhere
Basically they had the right manager who managed to get them playing as more than the sum of their parts.. something we have lacked for a long long time.
I thought the line was players out to allow for players in. Egbo gone, Campbell in. Do we now have to wait for one or more others to go to bring the next one(s) in or were Manny’s wages so big that him going has freed up budget space for more than one new incoming?
I saw sources elsewhere suggesting another striker in before the weekend, but not sure how that adds up unless the above re Manny is true or departure or one or more players will be announced concurrently.
Suspect we go into the Oxford game with Campbell the only new option.
If May & Leaburn both stay fit the rest of the season which is a big if then Cosgrove is probably a fine enough signing.
Cosgrove clearly feels like a 3rd, 4th or even 5th choice signing after the decision makers realised we don't have the budget to pay the going rate for any other top quality strikers at this level.
Feels like we got a bit lucky with the May signing being cheaper then someone of his recent goalscoring record would normally cost and us being his first choice thanks to location.
Id take Cosgrove. Are there preferred strikers id rather have? Yes but least he experience in the league and part of the promotion winning Plymouth team.
Aslong as he can be a focal point to allow to May and Co to run in behind then I am all for it.
Comments
Terrell Thomas made 2 appearances for reading in the championship. Lolyd Jones 4 for Luton bit of a push to say they performed there! Hector, Thomas, Ness and Jones performed to a 10th and 20th finish in league one last season.
We only have 3 experienced centre backs. Hector (341 apps) is the stand out but is still getting up to speed, it's then Thomas (171 apps) and Jones (165 apps). Backed up by Ness (48 apps) and Deji (37 apps) Hector picks up a big injury then we're not looking so smart at the back. Thomas and Jones still have less appearances than hector combined.
Yep they all need to learn to defend better as a unit and maybe Dabo will make a difference if he signs but, I doubt every other team in the division are envious of our CB's, having hector as an option maybe but the whole lot, as a unit, not so much.
We need a better option than Thomas and Jones in there, we won't get it, but we most definitely do need it in (my opinion)
Goals aren't the problem
I absolutely agree with all of this! There was some rumours we'd asked West Ham about Divin Mubama but that had been turned down due to their striker situation.
Someone like Cosgrove surely wouldn't come in to be Miles backup because neither him or Birmingham would ever agree to that when he could go elsewhere in this league and start week in week out.
Mobile players is a really really good point and seems to be something that Holden has really honed in on , all the signings we've made so far seem to be very mobile players that can get around the pitch and play in a pressing style.
Leaburn was injured for parts of last season too.
The two Campbells, when fit, could score 12-15 goals between them.
I agree we need another striker, but focussing on whether or not they can score 20 goals is too simplistic, if they only score 5 but provide the play and opportunities for May to get 25 that's the job done
When have Charlton ever had two out and out goal scorers?
I think people me included were hoping under this new lot for finally abit of money being spent and proven quality being brought in to show some ambition 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Basically they had the right manager who managed to get them playing as more than the sum of their parts.. something we have lacked for a long long time.
I saw sources elsewhere suggesting another striker in before the weekend, but not sure how that adds up unless the above re Manny is true or departure or one or more players will be announced concurrently.
Cosgrove clearly feels like a 3rd, 4th or even 5th choice signing after the decision makers realised we don't have the budget to pay the going rate for any other top quality strikers at this level.
Feels like we got a bit lucky with the May signing being cheaper then someone of his recent goalscoring record would normally cost and us being his first choice thanks to location.
Aslong as he can be a focal point to allow to May and Co to run in behind then I am all for it.
Hales and Flanagan.
Tees and Tracey