The problem I have is even if Jackson gets exactly the 11 he wants next season, he's showing this season that he can't get consistent results without the perfect lineup. Let's say we get two quality wingbacks, a better centre back and a good striker. What happens when that striker gets injured, or the wingbacks do, or the CB needs a rest? Our injury record over the past few years has been atrocious, we're hanging a lot of hope on Jackson getting the players he wants but it's not going to be 22 new ones. If we fall to pieces every time we don't have the perfect lineup then we'll be falling to pieces just about every week. Do we think that even if we sign a new centre mid and a RWB we won't have to play Gilbey and possibly Matthews when those players get hurt or need a rest? We can't win with them right now, I'm not convinced that we'll do it consistently next year even with a lot of personnel changes
Ultimately it’s going to be Thomas and probably a lot of input from Martin that decide Jackson’s immediate future. No idea what the working relationship JJ has with MS and inevitably that’s going to be crucial. Gut feeling the decision to keep JJ has already been made and I suspect Johnnie already knows what’s expected next season.
The problem I have is even if Jackson gets exactly the 11 he wants next season, he's showing this season that he can't get consistent results without the perfect lineup. Let's say we get two quality wingbacks, a better centre back and a good striker. What happens when that striker gets injured, or the wingbacks do, or the CB needs a rest? Our injury record over the past few years has been atrocious, we're hanging a lot of hope on Jackson getting the players he wants but it's not going to be 22 new ones. If we fall to pieces every time we don't have the perfect lineup then we'll be falling to pieces just about every week. Do we think that even if we sign a new centre mid and a RWB we won't have to play Gilbey and possibly Matthews when those players get hurt or need a rest? We can't win with them right now, I'm not convinced that we'll do it consistently next year even with a lot of personnel changes
I’m not convinced our recruitment will give us the squad we need, I can see us improving but not as much as we need to. My concern isn’t that we won’t improve on some of these weaknesses, but that Sandgaard’s recruitment strategy will mean there will be new problems next season.
We’ve won games and had good form with various combinations at CB, WB and CM, Jackson needing the perfect team isn’t true, his main issue has been periods without any strikers.
We recruited to play a lone striker and are suffering for it - Stockley isn’t truly suited to it yet we don’t have enough strikers to regularly play two up front and be capable of covering injuries and suspensions.
It’s exaggerated due not having a single midfielder or defender anywhere near double figures, the next highest goalscorer must be on 3 maybe 4 league goals?
Stockley played on 18th December and didn’t appear until coming on as a sub on 26th February. He’s playing now but isn’t fully fit, and it shows in his performances.
Washington played on the 11th December and his next game was on New Year’s Day. Later on he played on 8th February and didn’t play again until 12th March.
Aneke played on 8th February and was out until 15th April.
Davison, Lee, Leko and Burstow are so below that standard it has a huge impact. Davison’s dropped down a level and is doing fairly well but not outstanding. Lee isn’t physical or quick enough to play up front and impact a game. Leko struggles whenever he plays there (despite playing up front for Bowyer) and Burstow offers no threat or quality outside the box.
Any manager would have struggled when our main strikers were injured, we had no outlet and no threat. It put the defence under constant pressure. The players lost confidence as they knew our strikers at the time were offering nothing.
Looking out our results our worst periods line up with some or all our main three strikers being unavailable.
Either Adkins or Jackson could be successful but until we build squads that give us a proper chance to compete for promotion we’re going to keep having a couple of managers a season we look for someone to perform miracles.
A manager shouldn’t need the perfect squad, but the reverse is also true - a squad shouldn’t need the perfect manager. You want genuinely talented players that can grow with the club and win games at the next level without requiring a genius tactician and motivator.
The problem I have is even if Jackson gets exactly the 11 he wants next season, he's showing this season that he can't get consistent results without the perfect lineup. Let's say we get two quality wingbacks, a better centre back and a good striker. What happens when that striker gets injured, or the wingbacks do, or the CB needs a rest? Our injury record over the past few years has been atrocious, we're hanging a lot of hope on Jackson getting the players he wants but it's not going to be 22 new ones. If we fall to pieces every time we don't have the perfect lineup then we'll be falling to pieces just about every week. Do we think that even if we sign a new centre mid and a RWB we won't have to play Gilbey and possibly Matthews when those players get hurt or need a rest? We can't win with them right now, I'm not convinced that we'll do it consistently next year even with a lot of personnel changes
I’m not convinced our recruitment will give us the squad we need, I can see us improving but not as much as we need to. My concern isn’t that we won’t improve on some of these weaknesses, but that Sandgaard’s recruitment strategy will mean there will be new problems next season.
We’ve won games and had good form with various combinations at CB, WB and CM, Jackson needing the perfect team isn’t true, his main issue has been periods without any strikers.
We recruited to play a lone striker and are suffering for it - Stockley isn’t truly suited to it yet we don’t have enough strikers to regularly play two up front and be capable of covering injuries and suspensions.
It’s exaggerated due not having a single midfielder or defender anywhere near double figures, the next highest goalscorer must be on 3 maybe 4 league goals?
Stockley played on 18th December and didn’t appear until coming on as a sub on 26th February. He’s playing now but isn’t fully fit, and it shows in his performances.
Washington played on the 11th December and his next game was on New Year’s Day. Later on he played on 8th February and didn’t play again until 12th March.
Aneke played on 8th February and was out until 15th April.
Davison, Lee, Leko and Burstow are so below that standard it has a huge impact. Davison’s dropped down a level and is doing fairly well but not outstanding. Lee isn’t physical or quick enough to play up front and impact a game. Leko struggles whenever he plays there (despite playing up front for Bowyer) and Burstow offers no threat or quality outside the box.
Any manager would have struggled when our main strikers were injured, we had no outlet and no threat. It put the defence under constant pressure. The players lost confidence as they knew our strikers at the time were offering nothing.
Looking out our results our worst periods line up with some or all our main three strikers being unavailable.
Either Adkins or Jackson could be successful but until we build squads that give us a proper chance to compete for promotion we’re going to keep having a couple of managers a season we look for someone to perform miracles.
A manager shouldn’t need the perfect squad, but the reverse is also true - a squad shouldn’t need the perfect manager. You want genuinely talented players that can grow with the club and win games at the next level without requiring a genius tactician and motivator.
When Jackson has started one of Aneke/Stockley and paired them with Washington I would guess our PPG is at least play off level and that’s with the rest of the team being very average. Think we’ve only lost once when Stockley and Washington have been paired together up front. That to me says that when Jackson has a good team we do well and his system works, so in theory if he gets given a good team this summer then we will do well.
The worry is the recruitment, will he get what he needs? I can see improvement happening but probably only up to challenging for the play offs rather than anything higher. And the strikers issue could easily happen again with their injury records
Knowing we always play two up front should mean we sign another (hopefully better) first team striker, ideally two, so injuries to strikers should be a smaller risk. A couple of proper wing backs could make a real difference too.
The problem I have is even if Jackson gets exactly the 11 he wants next season, he's showing this season that he can't get consistent results without the perfect lineup. Let's say we get two quality wingbacks, a better centre back and a good striker. What happens when that striker gets injured, or the wingbacks do, or the CB needs a rest? Our injury record over the past few years has been atrocious, we're hanging a lot of hope on Jackson getting the players he wants but it's not going to be 22 new ones. If we fall to pieces every time we don't have the perfect lineup then we'll be falling to pieces just about every week. Do we think that even if we sign a new centre mid and a RWB we won't have to play Gilbey and possibly Matthews when those players get hurt or need a rest? We can't win with them right now, I'm not convinced that we'll do it consistently next year even with a lot of personnel changes
I’m not convinced our recruitment will give us the squad we need, I can see us improving but not as much as we need to. My concern isn’t that we won’t improve on some of these weaknesses, but that Sandgaard’s recruitment strategy will mean there will be new problems next season.
We’ve won games and had good form with various combinations at CB, WB and CM, Jackson needing the perfect team isn’t true, his main issue has been periods without any strikers.
We recruited to play a lone striker and are suffering for it - Stockley isn’t truly suited to it yet we don’t have enough strikers to regularly play two up front and be capable of covering injuries and suspensions.
It’s exaggerated due not having a single midfielder or defender anywhere near double figures, the next highest goalscorer must be on 3 maybe 4 league goals?
Stockley played on 18th December and didn’t appear until coming on as a sub on 26th February. He’s playing now but isn’t fully fit, and it shows in his performances.
Washington played on the 11th December and his next game was on New Year’s Day. Later on he played on 8th February and didn’t play again until 12th March.
Aneke played on 8th February and was out until 15th April.
Davison, Lee, Leko and Burstow are so below that standard it has a huge impact. Davison’s dropped down a level and is doing fairly well but not outstanding. Lee isn’t physical or quick enough to play up front and impact a game. Leko struggles whenever he plays there (despite playing up front for Bowyer) and Burstow offers no threat or quality outside the box.
Any manager would have struggled when our main strikers were injured, we had no outlet and no threat. It put the defence under constant pressure. The players lost confidence as they knew our strikers at the time were offering nothing.
Looking out our results our worst periods line up with some or all our main three strikers being unavailable.
Either Adkins or Jackson could be successful but until we build squads that give us a proper chance to compete for promotion we’re going to keep having a couple of managers a season we look for someone to perform miracles.
A manager shouldn’t need the perfect squad, but the reverse is also true - a squad shouldn’t need the perfect manager. You want genuinely talented players that can grow with the club and win games at the next level without requiring a genius tactician and motivator.
When Jackson has started one of Aneke/Stockley and paired them with Washington I would guess our PPG is at least play off level and that’s with the rest of the team being very average. Think we’ve only lost once when Stockley and Washington have been paired together up front. That to me says that when Jackson has a good team we do well and his system works, so in theory if he gets given a good team this summer then we will do well.
The worry is the recruitment, will he get what he needs? I can see improvement happening but probably only up to challenging for the play offs rather than anything higher. And the strikers issue could easily happen again with their injury records
Conversely we have only won one game all season that neither Stockley nor Aneke started. Ironically that was our best performance of the season.
Recruitment was, not the manager, not the system, the biggest reason our season has been so bad.
Knowing we always play two up front should mean we sign another (hopefully better) first team striker, ideally two, so injuries to strikers should be a smaller risk. A couple of proper wing backs could make a real difference too.
Yep I think wing backs and the 2 outside CB positions are going to be the key ones. Not as worried about strikers other than injuries as the 3 we have are good enough so just need 1 or 2 more. Same with midfield if we keep JFC then him, Dobson and Fraser makes a midfield that should be good enough. The back 5 is where we need a lot of work, probably only CBT and maybe Lavelle that I’m happy with. Clare I think is useful as a versatile squad player but I’m hoping he’s not first choice next season even though he’s done a good job this year
Kinda have to let him crack on, but unless he tries to conjure up a plan B, I cant see JJ lasting 15 games.
Don’t get this obsession people have with a manager needing to have more than one formation. If you have the right players for plan A, you might not need anything else. Most successful teams have one system that they stick too so I can see why JJ is trying to implement that. Rotherham, MK Dons and Plymouth this season have played the 3 at the back every game this season and it doesn’t seem to have stopped them being up there? Sometimes sticking to the same system is the best way as players know their roles inside out
Kinda have to let him crack on, but unless he tries to conjure up a plan B, I cant see JJ lasting 15 games.
Don’t get this obsession people have with a manager needing to have more than one formation. If you have the right players for plan A, you might not need anything else. Most successful teams have one system that they stick too so I can see why JJ is trying to implement that. Rotherham, MK Dons and Plymouth this season have played the 3 at the back every game this season and it doesn’t seem to have stopped them being up there? Sometimes sticking to the same system is the best way as players know their roles inside out
Kinda have to let him crack on, but unless he tries to conjure up a plan B, I cant see JJ lasting 15 games.
Don’t get this obsession people have with a manager needing to have more than one formation. If you have the right players for plan A, you might not need anything else. Most successful teams have one system that they stick too so I can see why JJ is trying to implement that. Rotherham, MK Dons and Plymouth this season have played the 3 at the back every game this season and it doesn’t seem to have stopped them being up there? Sometimes sticking to the same system is the best way as players know their roles inside out
Shhh, just because it’s good enough for Klopp doesn’t mean it’s good enough for us Charlton fans.
I didn’t want to open this thread as I knew it would annoy me.
Jackson doesn’t have to go by the way. He needs support behind him.
Disgraceful to think that a manager (who happens to be a club hero) in his first managerial role after working his way up the club from player to captain to coach to assistant manager to manager can take over with the club near enough the relegation zone and - when he has had strikers at his disposal - has delivered decent results.
Give the bloody guy a chance. He’s made mistakes but he’s still learning. Does anyone know what his ppg is when he has had Stockley and Washington both fit?
He has earn’t his chance to lead us next year and deserves us getting behind him.
Kinda have to let him crack on, but unless he tries to conjure up a plan B, I cant see JJ lasting 15 games.
Don’t get this obsession people have with a manager needing to have more than one formation. If you have the right players for plan A, you might not need anything else. Most successful teams have one system that they stick too so I can see why JJ is trying to implement that. Rotherham, MK Dons and Plymouth this season have played the 3 at the back every game this season and it doesn’t seem to have stopped them being up there? Sometimes sticking to the same system is the best way as players know their roles inside out
I'm not against picking a system and developing it, but it's a bit worrying that there's little to indicate effective patterns of play are being instituted. When Powell had his bad run in 2010/11 you could see he was trying to change the playing culture and what the plan was, the players were just too rubbish to pull it off. A midfield of Semedo, Parrett, McCormack and Wagstaff with Fry and Francis at full back wasn't capable of pulling it off but the commitment to ending the long ball game and playing a certain way was clear. I don't feel like Jackson has an overall plan to go with the shape, it feels more like he wants two strikers, has a lot of wingers and has built based on that. If that's not the case then I'm troubled by what the tactical plan is because it's not even coming through in terms of failure, we look disjointed and unclear on what should actually be happening. We're entirely reliant on players like CBT and Aneke being too strong and fast to be stopped by poor quality defenders rather than building a passage of play and that doesn't bode well.
Of course it’s acceptable and necessary for a manager to have a preferred system of play. Absolutely nothing wrong with JJ’s preference for 3-5-2. It’s effective and progressive. What’s not acceptable is when that system is applied so rigidly it’s to the detriment of the results. What’s also not acceptable is when a manager is unable through either inability or design not able to adapt the system to compensate for the opposition or injuries during the 90 minutes. I’ve not seen all the matches this season but reading this forum and watching the matches I have, I’ve not seen any evidence that JJ is either willing or capable of moving between systems. That’s not going to get us promoted.
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as we are now. All be it the left and right are the other way round.
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.
The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:
These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
I don't know about that. I think when we started it wasn't a million miles away defensively from that but our CBs aren't being asked - or aren't bothering - to push out as much as they did to make a back four in possession. Out wide we relied on a flat midfield with one winger who pushed forward and one who typically tucked in or linked with the FB going ahead of him. What's the equivalent now? We allow CBT to run on his own and there's very little interplay between him and anyone else apart from when he cuts inside. There's no brilliant LB/LCB who wins every 1-1 duel and stops just about every cross coming in like Solly used to, and that's what allowed the winger in front of him to be a bit more expansive. On the right we have a very basic WB who struggles to know what he's doing but mostly occupies no man's land between his RCB and the space in front. Jackson regularly linked up with Wiggins to create overloads down the
left wing but the carousel of centre mids don't have any relationship
with their wing back. Dobson, good as he is, is in place purely to smash things up like a tiny Essexy hulk and he does it from such a deep position, whereas Stephens tended to skulk behind Hollands who tried to do his damage further up the pitch and win the ball high where he could while Stephens kept things moving. Hollands also provided a goal threat and the ability to drive with the ball. You could set up the 11/12 team like we're set up now but you couldn't set up this shower like the 11/12 team. You either have two stay at home full backs or you put an attacking winger at actual full back and get sectioned under the Mental Health Act. You could put Gilbey or Morgan in one of the wider midfield spots but it doesn't really work and Dobson isn't at all suited to a midfield 2 without there needing to be so much support from the wide midfielder he's never supporting in the wide areas. We also relied a great deal on having a goalkeeper who could play out brilliantly and always carried the threat of being able to release BWP in on goal if the opposition defence pushed too high. The biggest difference though is there's no relationships between the areas of play. You can blame injuries, but when Stephens was out injured Hughes came in and recycled the ball from deep in a similar, albeit slightly less effective way. When Green wasn't available Waggy did the same job, pushing on and creating a man over to stretch attacks. The players asked to do the job in replacement might not have been quite as effective, but they replicated the pattern with a partner that allowed for consistency of style. Now though DJ doesn't do what CBT does, Inniss doesn't do what Lavelle does, Lee doesn't do what Morgan does and fuck knows what Gilbey's up to. It's possible Jackson will bring in lots of new players to all play the same way but it will continue to be nothing like what we did in 11/12 regardless of how much you squint at the formation because we don't have variety in our means of creating chances
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
I don't know about that. I think when we started it wasn't a million miles away defensively from that but our CBs aren't being asked - or aren't bothering - to push out as much as they did to make a back four in possession. Out wide we relied on a flat midfield with one winger who pushed forward and one who typically tucked in or linked with the FB going ahead of him. What's the equivalent now? We allow CBT to run on his own and there's very little interplay between him and anyone else apart from when he cuts inside. There's no brilliant LB/LCB who wins every 1-1 duel and stops just about every cross coming in like Solly used to, and that's what allowed the winger in front of him to be a bit more expansive. On the right we have a very basic WB who struggles to know what he's doing but mostly occupies no man's land between his RCB and the space in front. Jackson regularly linked up with Wiggins to create overloads down the
left wing but the carousel of centre mids don't have any relationship
with their wing back. Dobson, good as he is, is in place purely to smash things up like a tiny Essexy hulk and he does it from such a deep position, whereas Stephens tended to skulk behind Hollands who tried to do his damage further up the pitch and win the ball high where he could while Stephens kept things moving. Hollands also provided a goal threat and the ability to drive with the ball. You could set up the 11/12 team like we're set up now but you couldn't set up this shower like the 11/12 team. You either have two stay at home full backs or you put an attacking winger at actual full back and get sectioned under the Mental Health Act. You could put Gilbey or Morgan in one of the wider midfield spots but it doesn't really work and Dobson isn't at all suited to a midfield 2 without there needing to be so much support from the wide midfielder he's never supporting in the wide areas. We also relied a great deal on having a goalkeeper who could play out brilliantly and always carried the threat of being able to release BWP in on goal if the opposition defence pushed too high. The biggest difference though is there's no relationships between the areas of play. You can blame injuries, but when Stephens was out injured Hughes came in and recycled the ball from deep in a similar, albeit slightly less effective way. When Green wasn't available Waggy did the same job, pushing on and creating a man over to stretch attacks. The players asked to do the job in replacement might not have been quite as effective, but they replicated the pattern with a partner that allowed for consistency of style. Now though DJ doesn't do what CBT does, Inniss doesn't do what Lavelle does, Lee doesn't do what Morgan does and fuck knows what Gilbey's up to. It's possible Jackson will bring in lots of new players to all play the same way but it will continue to be nothing like what we did in 11/12 regardless of how much you squint at the formation because we don't have variety in our means of creating chances
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.
The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:
These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.
Agree, though if someone looked at average positions of Powell’s team they’d see Wiggins higher than Solly, Jackson tucked in and whoever his holding midfielder was that game deeper than his partner. It could easily be made to look like 3-5-2 if you watched highlights without any knowledge of that team
Formations tend to show you how a team lines up to defend, in attack they’re more fluid. I don’t believe playing CBT as a winger will necessarily get more out of him for example.
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.
The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:
These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.
Solly would've been a real presence at RCB!
You hear the same arguments against playing Purrington at LCB today.
When Wiggins and Jackson were half way up the pitch the other side and Wagstaff tucked in to help cover a break, Solly would’ve found himself in that RCB area covering a lot more often than anyone remembers.
The point I’d love to get to is to stop assigning positions like RCB to a player. The positions are fluid and players have to fill in where they are needed during the course of ninety minutes.
This is why I’ve been posting the position maps lately. CBT is by our formation’s definition a left wing back. Yet he is playing in more advanced areas than any of our midfielders and sometimes one of the two strikers. That is not what a left wing back does.
For all the criticism of the formation, some of it is valid BTW, what is the alternative?
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
We'll have to see what happens but I wouldn't be majorly shocked if Jackson recalled the way we played under Powell. Powell also insisted on two strikers and wasn't against a back 3 but when we played with 4 at the back he was very careful to make sure the more expansive winger was on the side with the defensive full back and the midfielder in front of the attacking full back could come in and cover narrow where needed. The fact that midfielder was Jackson you'd assume would give him insight into how that balance was intended to work. We honestly didn't have the most creative central two to cater to our way of playing, Stephens dropped deeper and deeper as the season went on and Hollands mostly snapped at players trying to go through the middle and drove the ball up when he could. We were capable of going over the top to BWP, using Green to cross out wide or Wiggins to get to the byeline, or just hammering it at Yann and watching him tenpin anyone who trid to win a header off him. The problem we'll likely have is being able to get the right kind of player in to suit it. We were very lucky that Jackson and Solly were already in place, so we only had to target a maruading LB and a didn't have to fixate too much on the defensive qualities of the right winger. We would have to rebuild a lot of things to play that way next season. I know 442 is the default for a lot of people but it was a very specific set of players that made it work effectively for us in11/12. I don't think we would have done half as well if we'd spent the season with Evina and Francis as the full backs, or a proper winger on the left
This formation is only really slightly different if you look at where the players actually play as opposed to putting labels on them. You could well imagine that team being set up the same as are now. All beat it the left and right are the other way round.
Exactly right. Formations aren't 'real', they are only a shorthand way to try to explain how a team is expected to play.
The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:
These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.
Solly would've been a real presence at RCB!
You joke but Bowyer played him there away at Sunderland at the start of 18/19.
When we win the league next season none of you doubters will be allowed to celebrate in the ground.
You’ll be branded with a “Jackson Out” mark on the forehead and marched right on down to Welling United.
This!
Proper Charlton know we'll be storming the league next year, the parallels to Powell is uncanny, taking over a shite team half way through a season (although Powell did have much better quality at his disposal like Llera and Oxo who went on to driving teams out of league one) to Powell actually playing a 352 disguised as 442 with JJ secretly playing 442 hidden in a 352.
Also, take a look at JJ's PPG, extrapolate that data and append the results to a full season, factor in Stocks and wash playing every game and with the XG numbers × by a 3mph north easterly wind on Tuesday night match days during the winter months and you'll find that'll give us a season ending total of 86.44444444 recurring points and put us firmly in second place.
Comments
We’ve won games and had good form with various combinations at CB, WB and CM, Jackson needing the perfect team isn’t true, his main issue has been periods without any strikers.
We recruited to play a lone striker and are suffering for it - Stockley isn’t truly suited to it yet we don’t have enough strikers to regularly play two up front and be capable of covering injuries and suspensions.
It’s exaggerated due not having a single midfielder or defender anywhere near double figures, the next highest goalscorer must be on 3 maybe 4 league goals?
Stockley played on 18th December and didn’t appear until coming on as a sub on 26th February. He’s playing now but isn’t fully fit, and it shows in his performances.
Washington played on the 11th December and his next game was on New Year’s Day. Later on he played on 8th February and didn’t play again until 12th March.
Aneke played on 8th February and was out until 15th April.
Davison, Lee, Leko and Burstow are so below that standard it has a huge impact. Davison’s dropped down a level and is doing fairly well but not outstanding. Lee isn’t physical or quick enough to play up front and impact a game. Leko struggles whenever he plays there (despite playing up front for Bowyer) and Burstow offers no threat or quality outside the box.
Any manager would have struggled when our main strikers were injured, we had no outlet and no threat. It put the defence under constant pressure. The players lost confidence as they knew our strikers at the time were offering nothing.
Looking out our results our worst periods line up with some or all our main three strikers being unavailable.
Either Adkins or Jackson could be successful but until we build squads that give us a proper chance to compete for promotion we’re going to keep having a couple of managers a season we look for someone to perform miracles.
A manager shouldn’t need the perfect squad, but the reverse is also true - a squad shouldn’t need the perfect manager. You want genuinely talented players that can grow with the club and win games at the next level without requiring a genius tactician and motivator.
Recruitment was, not the manager, not the system, the biggest reason our season has been so bad.
I didn’t want to open this thread as I knew it would annoy me.
Jackson doesn’t have to go by the way. He needs support behind him.
Give the bloody guy a chance. He’s made mistakes but he’s still learning. Does anyone know what his ppg is when he has had Stockley and Washington both fit?
He has earn’t his chance to lead us next year and deserves us getting behind him.
For multiple reasons a back 4 is out of the question, is it.
The 11/12 team could quite easily have been set-up as a 352 in this way:
Hamer
Solly - Morrison - Cort
Wagstaff - Stephens - Hollands - Jackson - Wiggins
Kermorgant - BWP
Compare that to 21/22 which is basically the same team but mirrored, as you say:
MacG
Clare - Lavelle - Purrington
Matthews - Gilbey - Dobson - Fraser - Blackett-Taylor
Stockley - Washington
Hamer -> MacG
Solly -> Purrington
Morrison -> Lavelle
Cort -> Clare
Wagstaff -> Blackett-Taylor
Stephens -> Fraser
Hollands -> Dobson
Jackson -> Gilbey
Wiggins -> Matthews
Kermorgant -> Stockley
BWP -> Washington
These players don't map exactly in terms of ability on the pitch, but you can bet that the roles they are being to asked to perform are nearly identical to their counterpart from 10 years earlier.
Formations tend to show you how a team lines up to defend, in attack they’re more fluid. I don’t believe playing CBT as a winger will necessarily get more out of him for example.
When Wiggins and Jackson were half way up the pitch the other side and Wagstaff tucked in to help cover a break, Solly would’ve found himself in that RCB area covering a lot more often than anyone remembers.
The point I’d love to get to is to stop assigning positions like RCB to a player. The positions are fluid and players have to fill in where they are needed during the course of ninety minutes.
This is why I’ve been posting the position maps lately. CBT is by our formation’s definition a left wing back. Yet he is playing in more advanced areas than any of our midfielders and sometimes one of the two strikers. That is not what a left wing back does.
Matthews - Clare - Pearce - Famewo
Gilbey - Dobson - Morgan - CBT
Stockley - Washington
Same players doing the same things but I bet fans would give Jacko more time if he came out as said we are switching to 4-4-2 with the above personnel
On the flip side one of the teams was post on the Google thing as a 442 with Lee up front and given as an example of nieve team selection.
As a great man once said, it's a funny old game.
This!
Proper Charlton know we'll be storming the league next year, the parallels to Powell is uncanny, taking over a shite team half way through a season (although Powell did have much better quality at his disposal like Llera and Oxo who went on to driving teams out of league one) to Powell actually playing a 352 disguised as 442 with JJ secretly playing 442 hidden in a 352.
Also, take a look at JJ's PPG, extrapolate that data and append the results to a full season, factor in Stocks and wash playing every game and with the XG numbers × by a 3mph north easterly wind on Tuesday night match days during the winter months and you'll find that'll give us a season ending total of 86.44444444 recurring points and put us firmly in second place.
Eaaaaassssyyyyyy
🙂