Has Bowyer lost it?

Pedro45

As long as we are thereabouts for the payoffs, he won't be sacked IMO.  Thomas knows we need stability, and shouldn't be swayed by negativity over Bowyer's bizarre selection and tactics over recent games. That said, if Bowyer does continue to try to outsmart himself by putting square pegs in round holes and desperately hoping one may fit (eventually) and we do slide away from the top six, then he can only have himself to blame when he gets the boot at season end.

Davo55

I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.

But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.

So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?

cafcfan1990

RedChaser said:

BR7_addick said:

On reflection (it’s always better to post the morning after) should he be given say, 5 games once we have a defence again?  Understand that could be too late, but there’s the question.

Too late for what? Promotion? A top six finish? As for five games after our first choice defence is available at least February after the transfer window has shut? What’s the point of changing the manager then unless the players aren’t playing for him. That second half last night didn’t look to me as if he’d lost the dressing room.

 The only person who can answer that is TS and whilst he wants to get out of this division nobody knows what he has said to LB about the present situation or the way forward. At least he hasn’t had the dreaded ‘vote of confidence’ from the owner yet. My personal view is that LB will be given until the end of the season at least when TS will conduct a performance review and consider the way forward with or without LB.

This for me. If you lose the dressing room I think you have to go because it's extremely difficult to recover. If the players are still fighting for Bowyer, I think he deserves our loyalty for at least this season. 

That being said, I do see a split fanbase at the moment. It seems if you criticise Bowyer another will come out and start saying you need to be loyal. Then others are backing Bowyer and being criticised for supporting him no matter what. Surely as fans we can criticise him (Smyth at RWB, Millar up top - deserved IMO) but still want him to turn it around. That's certainly how I feel, Bowyer played a big part in two dropped points last night. However, he made the changes, got the players working hard and at least we showed fight I wasn't sure we still had. 

ElfsborgAddick

Davo55 said:

I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.

But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.

So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?

Huddersfield and QPR I believe were very keen.

Cafc43v3r

ElfsborgAddick said:

Davo55 said:

I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.

But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.

So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?

Huddersfield and QPR I believe were very keen.

Huddersfield weren't, they may have made some noises but they were always going for a continental style coach.  

killerandflash

ct_addick said:

Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word

The main error was his own team selection, which he didn't fess up to on the VP interview (he wasn't pressed on it as the VP tone like all club services tends to be quite gentle)

"Picking Smyth at wing back, that's unacceptable. I've told myself that I won't accept such errors any more, it's killing us"

roseandcrown

ct_addick said:

Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word

Very noticeable and needed. I am hoping that they had clear the air talks with the players after Friday or someone Bowyer respects had a little chat with him. 

Go back to the old Bowyer, believe in the players support them but be honest with them in private. 

RedChaser

killerandflash said:

ct_addick said:

Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word

The main error was his own team selection, which he didn't fess up to on the VP interview (he wasn't pressed on it as the VP tone like all club services tends to be quite gentle)

"Picking Smyth at wing back, that's unacceptable. I've told myself that I won't accept such errors any more, it's killing us"

He may have not have come clean on VP but he did to the press afterwards. Here you go Killer,

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/lee-bowyer-admits-he-made-a-mistake-by-playing-qpr-loanee-paul-smyth-at-wing-back-during-charltons-4-4-draw-with-rochdale/

sillav nitram

As well, why is all the blame being aimed at Bowyer, surely Jackson is part of the equation?

Maybe the buck stops with Bowyer but there are other cogs in the machine!

I really do think both need a mentor, one that doesn’t feel threatening.

I’m not sure if that mentor is Curbs but it’s a thought and a start!

killerandflash

RedChaser said:

killerandflash said:

ct_addick said:

Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word

The main error was his own team selection, which he didn't fess up to on the VP interview (he wasn't pressed on it as the VP tone like all club services tends to be quite gentle)

"Picking Smyth at wing back, that's unacceptable. I've told myself that I won't accept such errors any more, it's killing us"

He may have not have come clean on VP but he did to the press afterwards. Here you go Killer,

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/lee-bowyer-admits-he-made-a-mistake-by-playing-qpr-loanee-paul-smyth-at-wing-back-during-charltons-4-4-draw-with-rochdale/

I saw that, but he didn't say anything in his VP interview, the main club one which is also the one quoted on the OS which doesn't even mention the 1st half formation

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5ffe232383a12/bowyer-praises-players-character-but-is-left-disappointed-by-draw

ForeverAddickted

sillav nitram said:

As well, why is all the blame being aimed at Bowyer, surely Jackson is part of the equation?

Maybe the buck stops with Bowyer but there are other cogs in the machine!

I really do think both need a mentor, one that doesn’t feel threatening.

I’m not sure if that mentor is Curbs but it’s a thought and a start!

Jackson is definitely responsible for set pieces isnt he?

Not sure if he's responsible for anything else with the Defenders 

sillav nitram

Dave Rudd said:

AFKABartram said:

We’ve undoubtedly had a little wobble, which has coincided with an impacting hit of injuries. All teams have a wobble and if you call for the manager to be changed each time you really won’t get anywhere.

As Lord Curbs said, you want to have your wobble now rather than in the last third of the season. 

Creating outside pressure on management (and owner) really is not going to help us, that I’m convinced. 

This is complete tosh ... and I'll call out Curbs too.  A superb example of incorrect football cliches.

All 'wobbles' (ie loss of points) are equal.  It doesn't matter when they happen ... the points lost are the same.  All wins earn three points, all losses earn zero.  It doesn't matter if they happen in September or March.

Second ... there is an implicit assumption that there will only be one 'wobble'.  How about if teams have a wobble now, and another at the end of the season?

Total tosh.  Do you own thinking, and don't rely on hackneyed cliches.

Not sure that’s true?

At the business end of the season when teams are vying for promotion or trying to avoid relegation, then I would suggest the pressure intensifies and is probably the worse time to have a wobble, when clear heads are definitely called for.

Cafc43v3r

This season is a bit go up or bust isn't it?

If we don't go up this season, there is a massive rebuild needed in the summer, with very little headroom room in the salary cap.

I think the following are out of contract and currently count as the "average":

Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley. Replacing all six, with the wage constraints won't be easy.

If we were playing a team of kids, with a sprinkling of experience, now I would be happy to give Bowyer longer and time to build.

My fear is that if we don't go up this season, we probably won't next season either and it could take 3 or 4 more transfer windows to sort out.  If we had signed some u21 projects with an eye on next season or integrated more younger players in to the 1st team it's a bit different.

We have close to zero chance of signing Famewo, Millar, Maatsen or Levitt in the summer so they, despite their age, short term options. Bar Innis and Gilbey everyone we signed was 27, or over, its not building a team for the future is it? 

RedChaser

killerandflash said:

RedChaser said:

killerandflash said:

ct_addick said:

Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word

The main error was his own team selection, which he didn't fess up to on the VP interview (he wasn't pressed on it as the VP tone like all club services tends to be quite gentle)

"Picking Smyth at wing back, that's unacceptable. I've told myself that I won't accept such errors any more, it's killing us"

He may have not have come clean on VP but he did to the press afterwards. Here you go Killer,

https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/lee-bowyer-admits-he-made-a-mistake-by-playing-qpr-loanee-paul-smyth-at-wing-back-during-charltons-4-4-draw-with-rochdale/

I saw that, but he didn't say anything in his VP interview, the main club one which is also the one quoted on the OS which doesn't even mention the 1st half formation

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5ffe232383a12/bowyer-praises-players-character-but-is-left-disappointed-by-draw

Yes but let's not be too selective to suit our own agendas if you already read that article wouldn't it have been better to also reference it in your post.

Redrobo

DOUCHER said:

Redrobo said:

We saw tonight that the players are behind Bowyer 100%. They could have folded after conceding four goals in the first half, but came out and won the second half convincingly. A fantastic effort and if had not be for Kettle, who has clearly never played the game, I think we would have won.
Now the players have regrown a pair I can see us performing better. Maybe not winning, but I will be looking for the performance. The team that played that half should be the team that starts Saturday - although the defence will need a change. I think we stand a good chance of getting into the playoffs still.

that's a quick u turn on williams   

I think that was one of his best games of late and he did not hand over possession as easily. I am still of the belief that as an attacking midfielder he fails to produce enough, but sometimes the sum of a team is greater than the individual parts, and so he deserves his place.

I still think it is laughable him playing as one of a central pairing, and would also suggest that the attack, attack, attack philosophy you were advocating resulted in us shipping four goals in a half against Rochdale - but fully accept that no one had Smyth down as a wing back! It does demonstrate the need for the right balance of players though.

For me, it was the change to a 4-4-2 that was pivotal to improved our performance, (and playing a right full back), and you have probably noted that I advocate a 4-4-2 or 3-5-2. 

Aneke was my MOM and Foster-Caskey a close second. He absolutely ran everything.

Would you go for a 4-4-2 Saturday with the team that played second half?

MuttleyCAFC

DamoNorthStand said:

roseandcrown said:

noisy_north_upper said:

If Bauer and Pratley hadn't scored lucky goals in League One last time Bowyer would already be gone because we wouldn't have gone up with the team we had the season after as Duch was still owner. You can tell Bowyer has never managed before, no shape, negative tactics from the start, playing Pearce (worst defender and captain I've ever seen at this club), all creative players on the bench and blaming everyone but himself. Never really rated Bowyer as a manager and now we are playing the worst football I've seen since before the Yann era.

behave. That is just ridiculous and re-writing history. 

The end of 2018/19 we was playing some off the best football for may years and was in great form. We went up and deserved it BECAUSE of Bowyer and his tactics. 

Indeed.

And frankly we should have gone up in retrospect with our eyes closed. Bowyer had a squad that any other league one manager would have killed for:

Bauer, Aribo, Cullen, Taylor, Grant, Bielik, Williams, Pratley, Djiksteel, Philips.

So whilst he did well and the job we needed to be done - it was the bare minimum one would expect with those players.

likewise compare the Lincoln squad to our squad now. Doesn’t make great reading.

MuttleyCAFC

Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!

se9addick

AFKABartram said:

All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...

Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury? 

Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in). 

Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.

Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.

roseandcrown

MuttleyCAFC said:

Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!

Depends on what top league one players are out of contract this summer. It could be a case we could pick off some the better players and get a more balanced hungry team. 

MuttleyCAFC

To entice them, you will have to pay them. Even though we are paying the players mentioned a lot more, they don't count in the same way towards the cap. 

Covered_End_Lad

MuttleyCAFC said:

Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!

Their full wage would count towards the cap next season as they would be signing a new contract and for the purposes of the cap are treated just like any new signing.

Cafc43v3r

Covered_End_Lad said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!

Their full wage would count towards the cap next season as they would be signing a new contract and for the purposes of the cap are treated just like any new signing.

Exactly, that's the problem. 

Redrobo

ForeverAddickted said:

sillav nitram said:

As well, why is all the blame being aimed at Bowyer, surely Jackson is part of the equation?

Maybe the buck stops with Bowyer but there are other cogs in the machine!

I really do think both need a mentor, one that doesn’t feel threatening.

I’m not sure if that mentor is Curbs but it’s a thought and a start!

Jackson is definitely responsible for set pieces isnt he?

Not sure if he's responsible for anything else with the Defenders 

I am sure that it has been mentioned that Bowyer takes the midfield and strikers in training and JJ the defenders. It is also logical. I would also suggest that defending set pieces is THE critical aspect for training to cover. The rest is pretty basic. 

Moving out of defence would be a team session I would have thought.

MuttleyCAFC

Makes it all the more important we get promoted this season then.

roseandcrown

MuttleyCAFC said:

To entice them, you will have to pay them. Even though we are paying the players mentioned a lot more, they don't count in the same way towards the cap. 

But this is going to the case for all teams in league one as they look to balance a squad within the wage cap. Players are going to have to adapt expectations and we may be able to pick up the better ones. 

Say for example Scott Fraser was out of contract this year with Burton not last. We could lose Williams and pick him up within the wage cap. All what ifs i know but I don't see it as all doom and gloom. 

I think the hardest part is making sure the players you do go the extra for are worth it and don't become a burden which Gunter, Gilbey and Watson could end up falling into this category.   

MuttleyCAFC

roseandcrown said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

To entice them, you will have to pay them. Even though we are paying the players mentioned a lot more, they don't count in the same way towards the cap. 

But this is going to the case for all teams in league one as they look to balance a squad within the wage cap. Players are going to have to adapt expectations and we may be able to pick up the better ones. 

Say for example Scott Fraser was out of contract this year with Burton not last. We could lose Williams and pick him up within the wage cap. All what ifs i know but I don't see it as all doom and gloom. 

I think the hardest part is making sure the players you do go the extra for are worth it and don't become a burden which Gunter, Gilbey and Watson could fall in end up falling into this category.   

Apart from the teams that are relegated and those that have more on longer contracts.

ForeverAddickted

Wouldn't be surprised if there is a bit left over for the out of contract players in the summer so we can try to keep them with a sort of wage increase

Bowyer has said we have no money left in the Salary Cap but that could still easily refer solely to new signings - Id certainly be surprised if Gallen didnt leave some kind of breathing room what with so many out of contract players

Unless of course the other option is to let two / three of those go if we're in League One and then use their wages to offer the likes of Aneke a new deal whilst having money left over for replacements

soapboxsam

My Caveat is Lee Bowyer should be Manager until the end of season and then a decision should be made in the best interests of CAFC. 

Bowyer has become the tinker man.
An A to Z tinker man.
Smyth starting as a RWB; it didn't work.
Matthews as a LB; it didn't work.
Maatsen as a RMF; it didn't work.
Bogle starting games, it didn't work.
Maddison influencing a game and then not getting on against Hull, it didn't work.
Millar is a wide man on the right or left why in first half was he in the middle. It didn't work.
Williams and Maddison being slagged off in public, did that work ? I would say no especially with Marcus.
Etc, etc.


Aneke playing as a Number 9, and not a number 10. Of course that worked. In League1 it was a no brainer. I said on CL 18 months ago Chuks was an old fashion number 9 and centre forward. 

Losing Inniss and Famewo has been a massive blow and I feel for Bowyer in that respect but in football you have to come up with a solution when you are a manager. Whether in park football or Pro football, you have to out think the other guy. 

Why is Lee being making so many poor calls since the International break (and the mini League last season but that is history and he has a clean slate this season)

I continue to want Lee Bowyer to be a success for all our sakes. I'm more and more baffled by his thought process.

The biggest worry is the players being baffled with so many of his 1st half line ups.

ElfsborgAddick

Cafc43v3r said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

Davo55 said:

I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.

But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.

So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?

Huddersfield and QPR I believe were very keen.

Huddersfield weren't, they may have made some noises but they were always going for a continental style coach.  

That leaves the mighty QPR.

Croydon

Covered_End_Lad said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!

Their full wage would count towards the cap next season as they would be signing a new contract and for the purposes of the cap are treated just like any new signing.

If we don't get promoted, there's no way we keep Chuks anyway