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Has Bowyer lost it?
Comments
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Certainly that’s true but I doubt Rochdales owner is expecting playoffs as worst case or their supporters looking forward to a return to the Premier League. No team has the right to beat another but if Charlton have ambitions to get out of league one as even a first step then winning your home games against teams in 18th place with an awful defence is what’s needed and I’m sorry to say should be expected. There are always iffy results but that last night wasn’t an iffy one off. It was a continuation of not poor, but dreadful results and baffling team selection and formations.sillav nitram said:
But isn’t that part of the problem?ShootersHillGuru said:Coming back makes it look much better than the reality. A draw at home to Rochdale isn’t good enough.We don’t have a divine right to beat anyone, even though many of us think we do?
We are a league 1 team the same as Rochdale and the rest in the division.4 -
Why would you not make a decision now in the interests of CAFC? That decision might be to retain Bowyer, but surely everything we do at all times should be in the interests of Charlton Athletic.soapboxsam said:My Caveat is Lee Bowyer should be Manager until the end of season and then a decision should be made in the best interests of CAFC.
Bowyer has become the tinker man.
An A to Z tinker man.
Smyth starting as a RWB; it didn't work.
Matthews as a LB; it didn't work.
Maatsen as a RMF; it didn't work.
Bogle starting games, it didn't work.
Maddison influencing a game and then not getting on against Hull, it didn't work.
Millar is a wide man on the right or left why in first half was he in the middle. It didn't work.
Williams and Maddison being slagged off in public, did that work ? I would say no especially with Marcus.
Etc, etc.
Aneke playing as a Number 9, and not a number 10. Of course that worked. In League1 it was a no brainer. I said on CL 18 months ago Chuks was an old fashion number 9 and centre forward.
Losing Inniss and Famewo has been a massive blow and I feel for Bowyer in that respect but in football you have to come up with a solution when you are a manager. Whether in park football or Pro football, you have to out think the other guy.
Why is Lee being making so many poor calls since the International break (and the mini League last season but that is history and he has a clean slate this season)
I continue to want Lee Bowyer to be a success for all our sakes. I'm more and more baffled by his thought process.
The biggest worry is the players being baffled with so many of his 1st half line ups.0 -
Does the cost of coaching count towards the salary cap figure?cafcfan1990 said:
Been saying this for a while. I think Bowyer needs a bit of support and someone to work with the defence would be a start.ShootersHillGuru said:Get in a defensive coach at the very least. We are a shambles.
Plus it's not quite as simple as getting a defensive coach in. Said coach, has to buy into the overall pattern of play or he really does just have to concentrate on the basics (which I'm sure an existing coach like Grant Basey could do quite easily). If you said, we're going to play normal 4-4-2, with hard-working wide midfielders, it would be much easier to drill a team just like George Graham did at Arsenal. But if you're constantly changing from 4-3-3 to 3-5-2 to 4-2-2-2, then you've got to spend days upon days doing it.....and there isn't the time now, with games coming up so regularly.
With the occurrence of injuries and suspensions, we had to change personnel. This has not helped the defensive stability at all. Plus there have been the changes made by LB and that has added to the confusion. Plus the same changes to the midfield, enforced or otherwise, has further added to lack of shape.
I was a defender and a manager and my view was a pretty conservative one; keep a hard-working 4-4-2 in a simple compact shape and wear teams out. You need the components obviously but players actually like to work hard if they can see results at the end of it.0 -
MuttleyCAFC said:
Apart from the teams that are relegated and those that have more on longer contracts.roseandcrown said:MuttleyCAFC said:To entice them, you will have to pay them. Even though we are paying the players mentioned a lot more, they don't count in the same way towards the cap.
But this is going to the case for all teams in league one as they look to balance a squad within the wage cap. Players are going to have to adapt expectations and we may be able to pick up the better ones.
Say for example Scott Fraser was out of contract this year with Burton not last. We could lose Williams and pick him up within the wage cap. All what ifs i know but I don't see it as all doom and gloom.
I think the hardest part is making sure the players you do go the extra for are worth it and don't become a burden which Gunter, Gilbey and Watson could fall in end up falling into this category.
Fair point.
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Around the time of Portsmouth away Bowyer was the best thing since sliced bread. Two months later.......se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Perhaps managers should be given 3 month rollover contracts.2 -
How many hot dogs does someone get paid for 3 months work?ElfsborgAddick said:
Around the time of Portsmouth away Bowyer was the best thing since sliced bread. Two months later.......se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Perhaps managers should be given 3 month rollover contracts.0 -
Spot onValleyGary said:‘Name and shame’ like Bowyer is beyond criticism.There is no doubt that a return to form will coincide with the return of Famewo and Innis. I just don’t think Lee has weathered the storm well enough without them.1 -
I don't think you can compare Bowyers / OGS's jobs and mistakes. I think the point being made was more to do with the turn around in opinion of the fans.se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Bowyer admitted his mistake and tries to explain it in the SLP interview0 -
Is he tactically clued up enough?Addick_8 said:
Spot onValleyGary said:‘Name and shame’ like Bowyer is beyond criticism.There is no doubt that a return to form will coincide with the return of Famewo and Innis. I just don’t think Lee has weathered the storm well enough without them.0 -
Bogles had a bad 15 and people are calling for the same. Though I admit he doesn't have a promotion and relegation under his belt for us yet.ElfsborgAddick said:
Yeah, that's right. Sack him now and bring in another manager. He has a bad 15 games and get rid of him.Croydon said:
We're Charlton fans, not Bowyer fans. If a manager holds back our club, my loyalties lie with the club.ElfsborgAddick said:So much for Bowyer's loyalty to the club.
Football fans are so fickle.
Clueless.0 - Sponsored links:
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As in you think a championship side will want him or you don't think we could afford to renew his contract?Croydon said:
If we don't get promoted, there's no way we keep Chuks anywayCovered_End_Lad said:
Their full wage would count towards the cap next season as they would be signing a new contract and for the purposes of the cap are treated just like any new signing.MuttleyCAFC said:Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!0 -
A bit like last night.roseandcrown said:MuttleyCAFC said:
Apart from the teams that are relegated and those that have more on longer contracts.roseandcrown said:MuttleyCAFC said:To entice them, you will have to pay them. Even though we are paying the players mentioned a lot more, they don't count in the same way towards the cap.
But this is going to the case for all teams in league one as they look to balance a squad within the wage cap. Players are going to have to adapt expectations and we may be able to pick up the better ones.
Say for example Scott Fraser was out of contract this year with Burton not last. We could lose Williams and pick him up within the wage cap. All what ifs i know but I don't see it as all doom and gloom.
I think the hardest part is making sure the players you do go the extra for are worth it and don't become a burden which Gunter, Gilbey and Watson could fall in end up falling into this category.
Fair point.0 -
Bowyer might be starting to believe his own publicity. Getting in players and improving them. He’s even spoken about it himself. It appeared to be true early on and he got himself a bit of a reputation. There’s little doubt he did have an effect. I’m wondering now whether his constant tinkering and picking players out of position culminating last evening in Smyth at right wingback is part of seeing how he can bring more out of players than was ever there. We have the basis of a playoff place squad with youth and experience but Bowyer needs to get right back to basics and pick players for their existing strengths and not because he wants to find out if Smyth is the unfound gem of a wingback that nobody else saw. For a reason Lee. For a reason.6
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I have no agenda, and my original point was that he hadn't mentioned the Smyth decision in the VP interview which is the key one for Charlton fans. He commented that the first 3 goals were poor defensively without even mentioning Smyth, as he knew that he couldn't blame the playerRedChaser said:
Yes but let's not be too selective to suit our own agendas if you already read that article wouldn't it have been better to also reference it in your post.killerandflash said:
I saw that, but he didn't say anything in his VP interview, the main club one which is also the one quoted on the OS which doesn't even mention the 1st half formationRedChaser said:
He may have not have come clean on VP but he did to the press afterwards. Here you go Killer,killerandflash said:
The main error was his own team selection, which he didn't fess up to on the VP interview (he wasn't pressed on it as the VP tone like all club services tends to be quite gentle)ct_addick said:Did notice that Bowyer was speaking more calmly after the game and did not call out anyone. I am sure someone had a word
"Picking Smyth at wing back, that's unacceptable. I've told myself that I won't accept such errors any more, it's killing us"
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/lee-bowyer-admits-he-made-a-mistake-by-playing-qpr-loanee-paul-smyth-at-wing-back-during-charltons-4-4-draw-with-rochdale/
https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5ffe232383a12/bowyer-praises-players-character-but-is-left-disappointed-by-draw
Relevant as it was in the VP interview on Friday where he made his comment about not caring about Maddison's injury, which has caused a lot of the disquiet1 -
If the cap stays, players will have to accept lower wages. How many L1 clubs will "blow their budget" for the likes of Williams and Amos?MuttleyCAFC said:Replacing Williams, Amos, Pearce, JFC, Oshilaja, Chuks and Pratley within the wage cap is an impossibility. We have to have a strategy around keeping the pre cap signed players if we are going to be in this division next season!0 -
As my non Charlton supporting Brother pointed out last week, our coaching team is all collectively inexperienced isn't it?
Bowyer
Jackson
Marshall
Basey
It's evident that opposition managers' spot the weaknesses and naivety in our approach. Even Sods like Evans.1 -
I'm not so sure. His name might have been "out there" but he's got an agent too and they are very capable of planting stories to either/both put him in people's thoughts and encourage current employers in contract negotiations.ElfsborgAddick said:
Huddersfield and QPR I believe were very keen.Davo55 said:I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.
But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.
So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?
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1 down....Dazzler21 said:6 games to get us right back on track.
In my predictions thread I have:
Rochdale D
Bristol R D (Postponed fixture I had as a loss)
Peterborough L
Swindon W
MK D
Portsmouth W
Do better than that 9 from 18 and I'll keep the faith a bit longer. Fail to get at least that and I'll be seriously questioning who is available.1 -
The Bristol Rovers game on Saturday isnt the original postponed one though is it?
That one was at the Valley whereas this is the reverse fixture - So its a bit odd we'll technically be playing the second game against an opponent before we play them the first time if that makes sense2 -
I think that's the dilemma/question that TS will be facing, probably part of Roddy's job too. There's something to be said for keeping faith with these guys as they are all relatively young and new and will (hopefully) learn from experience.mendonca said:As my non Charlton supporting Brother pointed out last week, our coaching team is all collectively inexperienced isn't it?
Bowyer
Jackson
Marshall
Basey
It's evident that opposition managers' spot the weaknesses and naivety in our approach. Even Sods like Evans.
On the other hand they are inexperienced and there does seem to be a lack of knowledge about how to get out of a rut, and older/cannier managers seem to be picking apart our plans fairly easily.
I don't expect a decision soon about Bowyer's future but when it does come it will be fairly instructive I think.1 - Sponsored links:
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I get where you are coming from but performances were tergid, even in that run of games we didn't win many of them clearly. Everyone could see the results were better than the performances. We all accepted that for dozens of reasons that don't need going over again.ElfsborgAddick said:
Around the time of Portsmouth away Bowyer was the best thing since sliced bread. Two months later.......se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Perhaps managers should be given 3 month rollover contracts.
In the 11 games since the international break, when even Bowyer himself said we would be better for having time on the training ground, we have been total garbage for all bar about 120 minutes of football.
In probably half those 11 games we have dropped points because of bizarre selections, tactics, substitutes and tantrums.
While I agree we shouldn't expect to beat anyone, taking 5 points from games against Accrington, Rochdale, Swindon, Plymouth, Burton, MK Dons, Gillingham and Shrewsbury is totally unacceptable no matter how you try and spin it.3 -
Birmingham were the most realistic option, I'd have thought, as there was a vacancy and Bowyer is a former playerDavo55 said:
I'm not so sure. His name might have been "out there" but he's got an agent too and they are very capable of planting stories to either/both put him in people's thoughts and encourage current employers in contract negotiations.ElfsborgAddick said:
Huddersfield and QPR I believe were very keen.Davo55 said:I find myself genuinely agreeing with posts on here which are diametrically opposed, both "for" and "against" Bowyer. I think that's because there are strong arguments both ways. For me, he still has more credit in the bank even though he has been making some awful mistakes. I want Sandgaard to give him at least until the end of the season.
But I do challenge the apparently accepted belief that Lee Bowyer has somehow shown us exceptional loyalty that needs to be repaid. Where's the evidence for that? As far as i can discern:
- he hasn't received any other job offer, and
- he is now on a very good contract.
So he's not really had a choice to make. And he's making way more money than he would walking away and running a fishing lake. Am I wrong?
Huddersfield would surely have stuck with the Cowleys if they were happy with an English manager, after all why replace a newly appointed manager who kept them up with one with got relegated?
QPR had no vacancy anyway1 -
There is also the danger of group think. We do what we do because it once worked and if we keep doing it it will work again.thenewbie said:
I think that's the dilemma/question that TS will be facing, probably part of Roddy's job too. There's something to be said for keeping faith with these guys as they are all relatively young and new and will (hopefully) learn from experience.mendonca said:As my non Charlton supporting Brother pointed out last week, our coaching team is all collectively inexperienced isn't it?
Bowyer
Jackson
Marshall
Basey
It's evident that opposition managers' spot the weaknesses and naivety in our approach. Even Sods like Evans.
On the other hand they are inexperienced and there does seem to be a lack of knowledge about how to get out of a rut, and older/cannier managers seem to be picking apart our plans fairly easily.
I don't expect a decision soon about Bowyer's future but when it does come it will be fairly instructive I think.
A wise old owl would probably point out that it hasn't worked for a year so maybe time to try something else.0 -
Good point, has Nimer come up with the money yet? :-)i_b_b_o_r_g said:
I was apparently a Nimer Apologist and now it turns out I'm a Bowyer Apologist, but I ain't changing for no oneForeverAddickted said:
I dunno.. I've been labelled a Bowyer Apologist a good few times now so its maybe only fair that the label gets dished backhudson-son-son said:
So if we don't and continue to defend like dogshit and he gets sacked, we should name and shame those who wanted to keep him in?esseffect said:Like the in the know thread if Bows stays on and we get promoted I’d move to name and shame they Bowyer out brigade
I don't think anyone who is suggesting Bowyer out particularly wants to be in that situation, or one of the ridiculous claims that we want to be doing badly to get rid of him. He's a hero for the last few years, but we're on a bad run, and he's reacted to that himself pretty poorly and all the whispers suggest he's losing the dressing room for it. Unfortunately with a change in ownership, management changes are always pretty inevitable at some point to get their own men in, and this seems to be going that way.
If the comeback tonight ignites a change in his philosophy to go a bit more attacking and on the front foot etc, everyone would be delighted. I'm not going to get too excited about a draw with Rochdale at home in isolation though, but we will see.
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I think there is a difference between getting a player to play well and actually improving them.ShootersHillGuru said:Bowyer might be starting to believe his own publicity. Getting in players and improving them. He’s even spoken about it himself. It appeared to be true early on and he got himself a bit of a reputation. There’s little doubt he did have an effect. I’m wondering now whether his constant tinkering and picking players out of position culminating last evening in Smyth at right wingback is part of seeing how he can bring more out of players than was ever there. We have the basis of a playoff place squad with youth and experience but Bowyer needs to get right back to basics and pick players for their existing strengths and not because he wants to find out if Smyth is the unfound gem of a wingback that nobody else saw. For a reason Lee. For a reason.
I would say the first is temporary and the second is permanent.
I feel a lot of people have confused the two.0 -
Bowyer was a guest coach, and this was one of the things Robinson introduced that I thought had merit.Someone like Wally Downes, who is a recognised defensive coach, coming in for five or six weeks could be useful in helping both players and coaches. Nothing to lose and would freshen up training.1
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Collectively, fans are a different breed from when I started going in the 70's. A different generation of course.Cafc43v3r said:
I get where you are coming from but performances were tergid, even in that run of games we didn't win many of them clearly. Everyone could see the results were better than the performances. We all accepted that for dozens of reasons that don't need going over again.ElfsborgAddick said:
Around the time of Portsmouth away Bowyer was the best thing since sliced bread. Two months later.......se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Perhaps managers should be given 3 month rollover contracts.
In the 11 games since the international break, when even Bowyer himself said we would be better for having time on the training ground, we have been total garbage for all bar about 120 minutes of football.
In probably half those 11 games we have dropped points because of bizarre selections, tactics, substitutes and tantrums.
While I agree we shouldn't expect to beat anyone, taking 5 points from games against Accrington, Rochdale, Swindon, Plymouth, Burton, MK Dons, Gillingham and Shrewsbury is totally unacceptable no matter how you try and spin it.
Here's my issue.
A club wants to bring a new manager in. Mr X has has had a successful period elsewhere and is deemed the man for the job.
After 15 games he's won 2 and he is given the heave ho, in part due to pressure from fans. He then gets sacked. And so it goes on.
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What side on Nimer fence you on today?Covered End said:
Good point, has Nimer come up with the money yet? :-)i_b_b_o_r_g said:
I was apparently a Nimer Apologist and now it turns out I'm a Bowyer Apologist, but I ain't changing for no oneForeverAddickted said:
I dunno.. I've been labelled a Bowyer Apologist a good few times now so its maybe only fair that the label gets dished backhudson-son-son said:
So if we don't and continue to defend like dogshit and he gets sacked, we should name and shame those who wanted to keep him in?esseffect said:Like the in the know thread if Bows stays on and we get promoted I’d move to name and shame they Bowyer out brigade
I don't think anyone who is suggesting Bowyer out particularly wants to be in that situation, or one of the ridiculous claims that we want to be doing badly to get rid of him. He's a hero for the last few years, but we're on a bad run, and he's reacted to that himself pretty poorly and all the whispers suggest he's losing the dressing room for it. Unfortunately with a change in ownership, management changes are always pretty inevitable at some point to get their own men in, and this seems to be going that way.
If the comeback tonight ignites a change in his philosophy to go a bit more attacking and on the front foot etc, everyone would be delighted. I'm not going to get too excited about a draw with Rochdale at home in isolation though, but we will see.
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Bowyer has been coaching for 6 years. He’s in his 4th season as a manager. Next month he will have 150 games under his belt as a manager. He’s experienced promotions, relegations and working under severe restrictions and crisises. He’s been in the professional game 27 years.mendonca said:As my non Charlton supporting Brother pointed out last week, our coaching team is all collectively inexperienced isn't it?
Bowyer
Jackson
Marshall
Basey
It's evident that opposition managers' spot the weaknesses and naivety in our approach. Even Sods like Evans.He’s not a Roy Hodgson or a Sam Alladyce but he’s not now inexperienced.6 -
Let’s be honest, Bowyer hadn’t had 3 months, he’s had 3 years.ElfsborgAddick said:
Around the time of Portsmouth away Bowyer was the best thing since sliced bread. Two months later.......se9addick said:
Did he play Rashford at right back? Did he say he didn’t care if Fernandes had sustained a serious injury?AFKABartram said:All the Man U fans that wanted Olly sacked two months ago (the vast majority) have gone very quiet in the last few weeks. Turns out he might not be completely out of his depth and he might actually have a clue after all...Let’s be honest, Manchester United’s form has not reached the depths that we’ve managed to plumb over the past couple of months and I doubt Solskjaer’s win % is as low as Bowyer’s in the past 18 months (with a relegation thrown in).Bowyer got a pass from pretty much all of our fans for some of the dreadful on the field performances and poor runs since Wembley because he was working under crazy circumstances. Eventually those passes run out.Anyway, I think despite the thousands of words written on Bowyer’s future on this forum (50% of them by me!) it’s moot - I don’t think Sandgaard will sack Bowyer for on the field stuff this season pretty much regardless.
Perhaps managers should be given 3 month rollover contracts.0
This discussion has been closed.
