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Electric Cars
Comments
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I can’t help thinking this is one of those threads that people will look back on in five or 10 years and laugh.2
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Or cry ?JamesSeed said:I can’t help thinking this is one of those threads that people will look back on in five or 10 years and laugh.0 -
about how naive the world was to actually think we could all switch to driving electric vehicles without having sufficient non-carbon electricity generation capacity in place first ?JamesSeed said:I can’t help thinking this is one of those threads that people will look back on in five or 10 years and laugh.7 -
No, more about how easy it is/was to spread misinformation.letthegoodtimesroll said:
about how naive the world was to actually think we could all switch to driving electric vehicles without having sufficient non-carbon electricity generation capacity in place first ?JamesSeed said:I can’t help thinking this is one of those threads that people will look back on in five or 10 years and laugh.3 -
Sales of everything are flagging.MrOneLung said:1 -
So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.5
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ShootersHillGuru said:So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.Utter nonsense @ShootersHillGuru. @JamesSeed is right. Given how much misinformation about EVs is produced by the fossil fuel industry and willingly and repeatedly spread by those who should know better, I'm not surprised that sales are not quite as high as predicted.The car manufacturers have the big problem of moving their production from ICE to EV. That in itself must be giving them nightmares as it cannot be a straightline conversion. Then they have to ensure the EV sales meet the (Tory) government percentages of all car (and van ?) sales. That is also problematic.When we ordered our Volvo we were told 5-8 months. It was ready in 7 months. While we were in a VW showroom we asked about the ID3. The response was 'don't bother, it's over a year, we can't get them for the showroom'.0
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Honda pulled out of manufacturing cars in the UK (Swindon) because the cost of converting the factory to manufacturing EV 's was not consdered to be viable.0
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So tell me where I’m wrong bearing in mind I’ve not quoted anything from the fossil fuel lobby. What’s the cost of replacing a battery ? The car industry are obviously concerned with sales and requesting a rethink by the government. The public are obviously worried and voting with their wallets. Where’s the utter nonsense in my post ?Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.Utter nonsense @ShootersHillGuru. @JamesSeed is right. Given how much misinformation about EVs is produced by the fossil fuel industry and willingly and repeatedly spread by those who should know better, I'm not surprised that sales are not quite as high as predicted.The car manufacturers have the big problem of moving their production from ICE to EV. That in itself must be giving them nightmares as it cannot be a straightline conversion. Then they have to ensure the EV sales meet the (Tory) government percentages of all car (and van ?) sales. That is also problematic.When we ordered our Volvo we were told 5-8 months. It was ready in 7 months. While we were in a VW showroom we asked about the ID3. The response was 'don't bother, it's over a year, we can't get them for the showroom'.0 -
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Fossil fuel lobby ? Tory polititions ? Same people, surely ?Showmetheway2gohome said:
Think you’ll look back in 10 years and find the misinformation came from the politicians as usual.JamesSeed said:
No, more about how easy it is/was to spread misinformation.letthegoodtimesroll said:
about how naive the world was to actually think we could all switch to driving electric vehicles without having sufficient non-carbon electricity generation capacity in place first ?JamesSeed said:I can’t help thinking this is one of those threads that people will look back on in five or 10 years and laugh.
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ShootersHillGuru said:
So tell me where I’m wrong bearing in mind I’ve not quoted anything from the fossil fuel lobby. What’s the cost of replacing a battery ? The car industry are obviously concerned with sales and requesting a rethink by the government. The public are obviously worried and voting with their wallets. Where’s the utter nonsense in my post ?Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.Utter nonsense @ShootersHillGuru. @JamesSeed is right. Given how much misinformation about EVs is produced by the fossil fuel industry and willingly and repeatedly spread by those who should know better, I'm not surprised that sales are not quite as high as predicted.The car manufacturers have the big problem of moving their production from ICE to EV. That in itself must be giving them nightmares as it cannot be a straightline conversion. Then they have to ensure the EV sales meet the (Tory) government percentages of all car (and van ?) sales. That is also problematic.When we ordered our Volvo we were told 5-8 months. It was ready in 7 months. While we were in a VW showroom we asked about the ID3. The response was 'don't bother, it's over a year, we can't get them for the showroom'.Tell me where the figures indicate "there is at present little appetite from the public" - Source SMMT
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New cars? What about second hand cars?0
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manufacturers have stated that sales have not been as high as expected and although sales of EV’s are increasing that’s mainly due to unsustainable discounting.0
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Statistics are always a handy tool. But you have to look a little more at the detail. The increase in sales in BEVs seems impressive but then you find out that that is largely driven by very heavily discounted fleet sales. (Fleet buyers can get an electric vehicle for less than its petrol equivalent. Such prices being available because manufacturers struggle to avoid the penalties for not selling enough electric cars.) The appetite for such vehicles amongst private buyers is not so strong with only 18% of sales to Joe Public being for electric vehicles. Quite what large quantities of ex-fleet electric vehicles hitting the second-hand market will do to residual values in a couple of years - I dread to think.Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:
So tell me where I’m wrong bearing in mind I’ve not quoted anything from the fossil fuel lobby. What’s the cost of replacing a battery ? The car industry are obviously concerned with sales and requesting a rethink by the government. The public are obviously worried and voting with their wallets. Where’s the utter nonsense in my post ?Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.Utter nonsense @ShootersHillGuru. @JamesSeed is right. Given how much misinformation about EVs is produced by the fossil fuel industry and willingly and repeatedly spread by those who should know better, I'm not surprised that sales are not quite as high as predicted.The car manufacturers have the big problem of moving their production from ICE to EV. That in itself must be giving them nightmares as it cannot be a straightline conversion. Then they have to ensure the EV sales meet the (Tory) government percentages of all car (and van ?) sales. That is also problematic.When we ordered our Volvo we were told 5-8 months. It was ready in 7 months. While we were in a VW showroom we asked about the ID3. The response was 'don't bother, it's over a year, we can't get them for the showroom'.Tell me where the figures indicate "there is at present little appetite from the public" - Source SMMT4 -
Gordon Brown had everybody rushing to by diesel vehicles as they were greener than petrol ones although they were more polluting. The large number of diesels sold on his advice was the precusser to today's problems.1
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I think that’s true but politicians make policy on the advice of industry and scientific experts. I doubt Gordon Brown knew any more about diesel v petrol engines than any ordinary person. In hindsight it was completely wrong but singling out Brown seems harsh.Dansk_Red said:Gordon Brown had everybody rushing to by diesel vehicles as they were greener than petrol ones although they were more polluting. The large number of diesels sold on his advice was the precusser to today's problems.3 -
ShootersHillGuru said:
I think that’s true but politicians make policy on the advice of industry and scientific experts. I doubt Gordon Brown knew any more about diesel v petrol engines than any ordinary person. In hindsight it was completely wrong but singling out Brown seems harsh.Dansk_Red said:Gordon Brown had everybody rushing to by diesel vehicles as they were greener than petrol ones although they were more polluting. The large number of diesels sold on his advice was the precusser to today's problems.100%Also, the precursor to today's problems is 200+ years of the industrial revolution.3 -
Is there any indication of many of those sales are company/fleet car ‘purchases’ as opposed to private individuals opting to spend their own money on getting one ?Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:
So tell me where I’m wrong bearing in mind I’ve not quoted anything from the fossil fuel lobby. What’s the cost of replacing a battery ? The car industry are obviously concerned with sales and requesting a rethink by the government. The public are obviously worried and voting with their wallets. Where’s the utter nonsense in my post ?Hex said:ShootersHillGuru said:So basically there is at present little appetite from the public. Can’t believe it’s because they don’t believe it’s a good idea to move away from ICE. It’s exactly what some of us have suggested and that’s cost, infrastructure and concerns about how long a EV is viable to run before another massive investment is required. It will happen but the whole thing needs a big rethink on how to proceed.Utter nonsense @ShootersHillGuru. @JamesSeed is right. Given how much misinformation about EVs is produced by the fossil fuel industry and willingly and repeatedly spread by those who should know better, I'm not surprised that sales are not quite as high as predicted.The car manufacturers have the big problem of moving their production from ICE to EV. That in itself must be giving them nightmares as it cannot be a straightline conversion. Then they have to ensure the EV sales meet the (Tory) government percentages of all car (and van ?) sales. That is also problematic.When we ordered our Volvo we were told 5-8 months. It was ready in 7 months. While we were in a VW showroom we asked about the ID3. The response was 'don't bother, it's over a year, we can't get them for the showroom'.Tell me where the figures indicate "there is at present little appetite from the public" - Source SMMT0 -
I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £1200 -
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Was speaking to a family from Oslo yesterday and he told me 90% of the country drive an ev. He got one before it got to 60% of the country driving one and the incentives ranged from free charging when he first got it to driving in bus lanes, which were (as expected) taken away once around 60% of the country owned an ev.1
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Most batteries will do 600k miles, and there are EVs with million on the clock on their original batteriesMrWalker said:I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £1200 -
In 10 years time, battery technology would have advanced so much, surely battery prices will drop.MrWalker said:I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £1200 -
Just for the sake of clarity, Brown was also an "ordinary person". Very ordinary in fact.ShootersHillGuru said:
I think that’s true but politicians make policy on the advice of industry and scientific experts. I doubt Gordon Brown knew any more about diesel v petrol engines than any ordinary person. In hindsight it was completely wrong but singling out Brown seems harsh.Dansk_Red said:Gordon Brown had everybody rushing to by diesel vehicles as they were greener than petrol ones although they were more polluting. The large number of diesels sold on his advice was the precusser to today's problems.0 -
Great.guinnessaddick said:
In 10 years time, battery technology would have advanced so much, surely battery prices will drop.MrWalker said:I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £120
So, what, half the price?
So £10k?
£5K?
The blinkered advocates say any criticism is created by the oil companies, deep state or the plain ignorant.
But there are valid questions that need answering.
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So if I’m reading the above correctly, an EV with a new battery will do 600k miles on that original battery so the need for any EV owner to replace a battery at any point is extremely unlikely. Unlikely even if that 600k turns out to be 300k. That’s something I’m not aware of and in many respects is a game changer. On the other hand I understand most EV batteries warranties last for 8 - 15 years or 100k miles. Somewhat of a discrepancy here ? A more realistic figure is 150k miles, so around 15 years which to me seems decent enough.1
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Let me put your mind at rest. You may have to pay £20k currently for a Tesla battery but you can get a Renault Zoe battery for £2-2,500.MrWalker said:
Great.guinnessaddick said:
In 10 years time, battery technology would have advanced so much, surely battery prices will drop.MrWalker said:I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £120
So, what, half the price?
So £10k?
£5K?
The blinkered advocates say any criticism is created by the oil companies, deep state or the plain ignorant.
But there are valid questions that need answering.
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There was the usual stream of callers making suspect claims about EVs today on LBC. One women claimed that an EV loses charge just sitting on your drive. We had no experience of what would happen if we left our EV unused for 2 weeks while on holiday this year. We left it on the drive and used the Jazz to go to the airport. We left the car at 100% and it was still at 100% on our return.
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Do possibly, but to what level? My Cabbie has a model Y, bought brand new about 16 months ago, now got 140k on it, battery is now down to a little over 80%. It'll be next to no use to him once that gets down to about 60% in another 18 months time. It's bad enough he 'charges' about 15% more now as he can't do quite as many trips a day (charging time!)Rothko said:
Most batteries will do 600k miles, and there are EVs with million on the clock on their original batteriesMrWalker said:I cant escape the image of the decaying hulks of thousands of electric cars that no one has the money, or inclination, to spend £20k to buy a replacement battery after 10 years or so.
My 12 year old car has had a couple of hoses replaced since I've owned it. £120
See above, it's not really how long they last but how they last. The batteries degrade so distance they are able to travel lessons mile by mile.ShootersHillGuru said:So if I’m reading the above correctly, an EV with a new battery will do 600k miles on that original battery so the need for any EV owner to replace a battery at any point is extremely unlikely. Unlikely even if that 600k turns out to be 300k. That’s something I’m not aware of and in many respects is a game changer. On the other hand I understand most EV batteries warranties last for 8 - 15 years or 100k miles. Somewhat of a discrepancy here ? A more realistic figure is 150k miles, so around 15 years which to me seems decent enough.1 -
My only experience of an EV was a courtesy/hire car from Gatwick. Enterprise assured me that it had ample charge to get me the 83 miles back to Broadstairs.
When we got in the car it showed a range of just under 200 miles. By the time we got home it was down to about 20. It was the most stressful drive that I have ever had. Who wants to drive like that?3
