Jesus Christ blaming Jews for anti semitism and some ones crawled out beneath their rock and started spinning the Rothschild conspiracy theory. The anti semites of the 30s must be gleeful their work is still in use.
Actually made me a bit sad that I post on this board, it’s shameful.
Who is that then? Huskaris brought the Rothschilds up in a direct question. Can't see anything about the Rothschild conspiracy theory except explaining why it isn't correct. Who is blaming the Jews for anti-semitism? This is the whole issue here and some people are willing to listen to what people are saying and some want to jump down people's throats whatever they say in faux indignation.
Anyway, if you want to look back through history and look at who actually always stands up against racism and prejudice - it isn't the Daily Mail suprisingly, but the left. They are the ones who confront the fascists, they are the ones who stand up against apartheid. And today, when you see far right marches against minorities, they are the ones countering them.
So a group of travellers turn up in your back yard, put a fence up and declare their environs as their property. Because the authorities deem them a pursecuted race they declare the encampment legal. Without compensation or your agreement. As the family expands they extend the fence further into your land. You go to court who rule they have to return to their previous territory. They refuse and indeed advance their fence further down the garden.Shrugs all round. You get your mates round and threaten them to move back but they get their extended family and the authorities to bully you. Kids throw rocks over the fence and they shoot them. Unpunished. So they move their fence forward.
Please excuse the racist undertones, but I am criticising the most racist country in the world today
No, I wont "excuse the racist undertones" even if you will.
Then please comment on the underlying racism of the Israeli regime, Ben.
Again, we debate Racism in the labour party and you scream "Whatabout Israel?"
Isreal's actions don't excuse the racism rampant in the Labour party.
Because the majority of the Labour Party are concerned with Israeli racism not racism by Jews. Obviously there are some pricks within the party, but the same with any large group, including CL. I have condemned Labour anti-semities in posts above, will you acknowledge that Israel is an abhorrent, racist regime?
Only some pricks? Seems those "pricks" are running the show and are being slavishly followed by many. And you tried to pretend that the evidence of them being racist pricks might have been made up.
Yet again you try to excuse that racism by refering to Israel.
Every time. Every single time.
Point out labour anti-semitism and the response is "Whataboutery"
What about the Tories?
What about Isreal?
Never what about Hamas or what about Saudi Arabia? What about Venuzula or Soviet Russia? None relevant to a debate about racism in a British political party in 2018 but we can all play Whataboutery
Time for bed
4/10/36 never forget, never again.
Ben. A lot of mud slinging at Labour there. No doubt some will stick. The reason I accuse Israel repeatedly of racism is because of their oppression of Palestinians. Refute it or shut up.
Cable Street? Jews and Labour left wingers stood side by side against Moseley, supported by the Tory press and party. You and Margaret Hodge should do your history. Please confirm that Israel are the most racist regime on the planet or justify your stance. In your prodigious posts on this thread, you have not acknowleged a single crticism of them. Hidden agenda?
Ha ha, you're lecturing me on the history of Cable St
"Jews and Labour Left wingers" ha, ha. No communists, trade unionists, taxi drivers, etc etc.
And Moseley was a former Labour MP too
Nice use of of the cults "hidden agenda" smear there too.
And you don't get to tell me to shut up either.
The labour party is riddled with jew hate but does very little about it.
There is a very interesting trend in both the UK and Australian Labour Party away from their traditional rock-solid support for Israel.
In both cases a big reason for that change in attitude is because large Muslim urban populations are gaining influence in these parties, both internally as candidates and as a voting bloc, and it becomes impossible to hold the traditional line on supporting Israel.
Most of Labour's support in Sydney comes from the western part of the city where large ethnic groups of Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians etc have pushed hard for a change in policy towards Israel and now they have achieved it and it is very similar story in Melbourne.
The last Labour government here was very embarrassingly forced to abstain on a UN vote on granting Palestine observer status in 2012 at the UN when the PM Julia Gillard had wanted to vote against the motion - internal party pressure forced her into a backdown.
The hard-left takeover of UK Labour has exacerbated this trend there but even if Corbyn were not around the large Muslim populations in several major UK cities means that pressure would have grown anyway no matter who the leader was.
Corbyn is not an idiot, he knows very well that there is a very dangerous anti-Semitic fringe in his party - but he also knows he wouldn't be leader without them so pretends that all is rosy in the garden.
Some points I agree with and some not.
You are right that there have been large groups of Muslims that have joined political parties and influenced them in ways that I agree with or disagree with. The left has always had a problem with how Israel acts so this is not new thing, this has traditionally been an anti Israel thing rather than an anti Jewish thing. There lies the problem, some on the left want to criticise Israel and any other state when they feel criticism is warranted. Some states are however very defensive e.g. Russia, Trumps USA, Hungary and Israel. They get there retaliation in first.
There is an anti-Semitic fringe on the left and the centre and the right. With regards to Labour I think it is extremely unlikely that they have enough significance to give or take away power.
And Labour does not deny Israel it's right to exist. I want Isreal to exist in peace with its neighbours and I think it is possible for it to do that in the future. Yes, many things have to change on both sides, but the solution will come from Arab states and Israel ultimately!
And understanding that to find peace you have to talk to those that make war.
But only one side
Talk to and try to understand your enemy - that tends to be one side. I have supported Trump talking to America's enemies when I don't support him on much else and I have received stick for it. It seems sensible to me. I know it doesn't to many others.
There is a very interesting trend in both the UK and Australian Labour Party away from their traditional rock-solid support for Israel.
In both cases a big reason for that change in attitude is because large Muslim urban populations are gaining influence in these parties, both internally as candidates and as a voting bloc, and it becomes impossible to hold the traditional line on supporting Israel.
Most of Labour's support in Sydney comes from the western part of the city where large ethnic groups of Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians etc have pushed hard for a change in policy towards Israel and now they have achieved it and it is very similar story in Melbourne.
The last Labour government here was very embarrassingly forced to abstain on a UN vote on granting Palestine observer status in 2012 at the UN when the PM Julia Gillard had wanted to vote against the motion - internal party pressure forced her into a backdown.
The hard-left takeover of UK Labour has exacerbated this trend there but even if Corbyn were not around the large Muslim populations in several major UK cities means that pressure would have grown anyway no matter who the leader was.
Corbyn is not an idiot, he knows very well that there is a very dangerous anti-Semitic fringe in his party - but he also knows he wouldn't be leader without them so pretends that all is rosy in the garden.
Some points I agree with and some not.
You are right that there have been large groups of Muslims that have joined political parties and influenced them in ways that I agree with or disagree with. The left has always had a problem with how Israel acts so this is not new thing, this has traditionally been an anti Israel thing rather than an anti Jewish thing. There lies the problem, some on the left want to criticise Israel and any other state when they feel criticism is warranted. Some states are however very defensive e.g. Russia, Trumps USA, Hungary and Israel. They get there retaliation in first.
There is an anti-Semitic fringe on the left and the centre and the right. With regards to Labour I think it is extremely unlikely that they have enough significance to give or take away power.
I agree and there is an anti-semitic fringe - a minority who themselves conflate the actions of Israel with Jews. It is a new form of anti-semitism unlike the historical type in terms of its origins. And Corbyn should have dealt with them more quickly. A few months ago, I listened to interviews on LBC with two Jewish leaders - both were critical of Corbyn but one said anti-semitism was nothing to do with zionism and the other said it was. If we decide the actions of Israel can't be criticised, I think we have learned nothing about the most vile crimes against Jews in the last century.
And Labour does not deny Israel it's right to exist. I want Isreal to exist in peace with its neighbours and I think it is possible for it to do that in the future. Yes, many things have to change on both sides, but the solution will come from Arab states and Israel ultimately!
"As Corbyn’s leadership prospects dramatically grew during the 2015 Labour election, extraordinary numbers of vile anti-Semitic tweets seemed to emerge more or less out of nowhere. Were these genuine Corbyn supporters? Or bots and operatives, seeking to cause the same havoc in UK politics as they’ve managed with alarming success in its American counterpart?"
Problem solved. It's all bots and operatives, "fake news" as another cult leader might say.
"As Corbyn’s leadership prospects dramatically grew during the 2015 Labour election, extraordinary numbers of vile anti-Semitic tweets seemed to emerge more or less out of nowhere. Were these genuine Corbyn supporters? Or bots and operatives, seeking to cause the same havoc in UK politics as they’ve managed with alarming success in its American counterpart?"
Problem solved. It's all bots and operatives, "fake news" as another cult leader might say.
None so blind as those that refuse to see.
You read all that article and that is what you took from it?
"As Corbyn’s leadership prospects dramatically grew during the 2015 Labour election, extraordinary numbers of vile anti-Semitic tweets seemed to emerge more or less out of nowhere. Were these genuine Corbyn supporters? Or bots and operatives, seeking to cause the same havoc in UK politics as they’ve managed with alarming success in its American counterpart?"
Problem solved. It's all bots and operatives, "fake news" as another cult leader might say.
None so blind as those that refuse to see.
You read all that article and that is what you took from it?
Exactly. There were criticisms of Corbyn in the article too - it was just saying he isn't anti-semitic as well as making very important points about this whole debate which is actually much wider than Corbyn.
A lot of you I think need to look at the definition of
a) racism b) being anti Semitic
Eg to state a view that Israel backs Isis (which 1000s believe) is not either. It is about the state not Jews. Or to back Palestine the same.
Those that call that anti Semitic do so for political gain eg Israel, Labour friends of Israel, Tories, Blairites. They are politicising a serious issue and so undermining the real fight against it which is not in the Labour Party but general society and the rise of the far right again across Europe.
I am anti Israel but not anti Semitic I am anti Saudi Arabia and Qatar but not anti Muslim I am anti Trump and his supporters but not anti Christian.
Support the Jewish people and protect them like all religions.
Jesus Christ blaming Jews for anti semitism and some ones crawled out beneath their rock and started spinning the Rothschild conspiracy theory. The anti semites of the 30s must be gleeful their work is still in use.
Actually made me a bit sad that I post on this board, it’s shameful.
He's never liked them since they rejected him as the Messiah.
A lot of you I think need to look at the definition of
a) racism b) being anti Semitic
Eg to state a view that Israel backs Isis (which 1000s believe) is not either. It is about the state not Jews. Or to back Palestine the same.
Those that call that anti Semitic do so for political gain eg Israel, Labour friends of Israel, Tories, Blairites. They are politicising a serious issue and so undermining the real fight against it which is not in the Labour Party but general society and the rise of the far right again across Europe.
I am anti Israel but not anti Semitic I am anti Saudi Arabia and Qatar but not anti Muslim I am anti Trump and his supporters but not anti Christian.
Support the Jewish people and protect them like all religions.
why arent you anti american if you dont like trump? Surely you're anti american or you're anti the israeli right wing and anti Sauds?
Anyway, once again we KEEP COMING BACK TO PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL. This is not about israel, this is about british jews. I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.
Do we talk about boko haram when we talk about africans?
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
Just seen this thread is being sunk. Once again anything that has criticism of the labour leadership gets consistently sunk, Ken livingstone thread, "what do labour need to change" thread.
Just seen this thread is being sunk. Once again anything that has criticism of the labour leadership gets consistently sunk, Ken livingstone thread, "what do labour need to change" thread.
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
But when people criticise the actions of the state of Israel some people call it anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways.
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
But when people criticise the actions of the state of Israel some people call it anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways.
when did or anyone on this thread say criticising the government of israel is anti semitic? Seems to me its much more of a deflection tactic.
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
But when people criticise the actions of the state of Israel some people call it anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways.
when did or anyone on this thread say criticising the government of israel is anti semitic? Seems to me its much more of a deflection tactic.
Many have and the sticking point of the IHRA definition is just that, an all party select committee noted it in 2016.
See this text from the article I have just sent you.
This is entirely in line with the recommendations of the all-party Commons home affairs select committee in October 2016 that the IHRA definition should only be adopted if qualified by caveats making clear that it is not antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
But when people criticise the actions of the state of Israel some people call it anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways.
when did or anyone on this thread say criticising the government of israel is anti semitic? Seems to me its much more of a deflection tactic.
Many have and the sticking point of the IHRA definition is just that, an all party select committee noted it in 2016.
See this text from the article I have just sent you.
This is entirely in line with the recommendations of the all-party Commons home affairs select committee in October 2016 that the IHRA definition should only be adopted if qualified by caveats making clear that it is not antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
ok its a ridiculous thing to have included.
Can we get back to british jews rather than talking about israel?
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
But when people criticise the actions of the state of Israel some people call it anti-semitism. You can't have it both ways.
when did or anyone on this thread say criticising the government of israel is anti semitic? Seems to me its much more of a deflection tactic.
Many have and the sticking point of the IHRA definition is just that, an all party select committee noted it in 2016.
See this text from the article I have just sent you.
This is entirely in line with the recommendations of the all-party Commons home affairs select committee in October 2016 that the IHRA definition should only be adopted if qualified by caveats making clear that it is not antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
ok its a ridiculous thing to have included.
Can we get back to british jews rather than talking about israel?
I am afraid that the nature of the conversation on both sides (not on this thread) mean that Jews and Israel are intrinsically linked.
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
Because the IHRA defenition of anti-semitism, adopted by Labour, has 11 appended examples that they won't accept. Seven of these refer to Israel. Accusers of Labour, like JLC, BoD and Hodge are apologists for Israeli attrocities.
Henry, I didn't mention communists, trade unionists or taxi drivers because I thought it was a given that if they protested they came under the banner of 'left' along with nurses, teachers etc. If I fail to mention a profession does that dilute my opinion? From the ones I've met I doubt there were too many taxi drivers opposing Moseley's views. That he was a member of the Labour party doesn't excuse the fact he was a nasty racist.
Of all my points there is one you repeatedly ignore. Israel is a racist state. Agree or shut up!
CT. Good to see you back. Rather than commenting on trivia like World politics and Adam Wagner monologues, can you give us some insight on the current CAFC squad and pattern of play!
The problem nowadays, in this age of easily outraged and perhaps oversensitive minorities, is that any criticism of a Jew, Muslim, Transgender person, or any other minority group one cares to mention, can be construed as anti-Semitic, anti-muslim, anti LGBTG (have I got the letters right here), or anti any other group interested in stopping perceived negative comments made about them. Always remember that there is a line between valid critical commentary and aiming hatred and unjustified abuse at an individual or group, simply because of their race, ethnicity, gender and lifestyle ..
Comments
Anyway, if you want to look back through history and look at who actually always stands up against racism and prejudice - it isn't the Daily Mail suprisingly, but the left. They are the ones who confront the fascists, they are the ones who stand up against apartheid. And today, when you see far right marches against minorities, they are the ones countering them.
"Jews and Labour Left wingers" ha, ha. No communists, trade unionists, taxi drivers, etc etc.
And Moseley was a former Labour MP too
Nice use of of the cults "hidden agenda" smear there too.
And you don't get to tell me to shut up either.
The labour party is riddled with jew hate but does very little about it.
You are right that there have been large groups of Muslims that have joined political parties and influenced them in ways that I agree with or disagree with. The left has always had a problem with how Israel acts so this is not new thing, this has traditionally been an anti Israel thing rather than an anti Jewish thing. There lies the problem, some on the left want to criticise Israel and any other state when they feel criticism is warranted. Some states are however very defensive e.g. Russia, Trumps USA, Hungary and Israel. They get there retaliation in first.
There is an anti-Semitic fringe on the left and the centre and the right. With regards to Labour I think it is extremely unlikely that they have enough significance to give or take away power.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/shaun-lawson/enough-of-these-disgraceful-slurs-against-jeremy-corbyn
And Labour does not deny Israel it's right to exist. I want Isreal to exist in peace with its neighbours and I think it is possible for it to do that in the future. Yes, many things have to change on both sides, but the solution will come from Arab states and Israel ultimately!
More Whataboutery
Very little about Corbyn
This was a good bit
"As Corbyn’s leadership prospects dramatically grew during the 2015 Labour election, extraordinary numbers of vile anti-Semitic tweets seemed to emerge more or less out of nowhere. Were these genuine Corbyn supporters? Or bots and operatives, seeking to cause the same havoc in UK politics as they’ve managed with alarming success in its American counterpart?"
Problem solved. It's all bots and operatives, "fake news" as another cult leader might say.
None so blind as those that refuse to see.
a) racism
b) being anti Semitic
Eg to state a view that Israel backs Isis (which 1000s believe) is not either. It is about the state not Jews. Or to back Palestine the same.
Those that call that anti Semitic do so for political gain eg Israel, Labour friends of Israel, Tories, Blairites. They are politicising a serious issue and so undermining the real fight against it which is not in the Labour Party but general society and the rise of the far right again across Europe.
I am anti Israel but not anti Semitic
I am anti Saudi Arabia and Qatar but not anti Muslim
I am anti Trump and his supporters but not anti Christian.
Support the Jewish people and protect them like all religions.
Anyway, once again we KEEP COMING BACK TO PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL. This is not about israel, this is about british jews. I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.
Do we talk about boko haram when we talk about africans?
baddiel is constantly nailing the head of anti semitism in britain. WHY do people talk about israel when anti semitism is brought up? This isn't about israel. This is how british jews feel in britain because of the inaction of british people to combat anti semitism in britain.
A massive shame on this board.
See this text from the article I have just sent you.
This is entirely in line with the recommendations of the all-party Commons home affairs select committee in October 2016 that the IHRA definition should only be adopted if qualified by caveats making clear that it is not antisemitic to criticise the Israeli government without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
Can we get back to british jews rather than talking about israel?
Of all my points there is one you repeatedly ignore. Israel is a racist state. Agree or shut up!
Always remember that there is a line between valid critical commentary and aiming hatred and unjustified abuse at an individual or group, simply because of their race, ethnicity, gender and lifestyle ..