Yes, you can have Christian Zionists and without them we probably wouldn't have a state of Israel. Before teh war, zionism was a minority movement within the Jewish people. Churchill was a passionate Zionist. I have a lot of hope for Israel as a nation, I know it sounds stupid but you look at the Eurovision Song contest and other things and see progressive elements within the country. Its young gives me hope for the future. I think there is peace in its future, but not whilst it has leaders like its current one. I think the way it has been settling on Palestinian land is an international crime. Does that make me anti-semitic? Maybe it does, but I respect the Jewish people greatly - those living in Israel and other countries - which has been what Jews have doing peacefully for centuries.
But what about the Rothschilds?
The Rothschilds are are family that have been profiting through the misery of others for centuries - making fortunes out of wars. Often funding both sides. This is mostly because they have banks in most countries and they are blamed for things they are not responisble for - like starting wars they didn't start! They happen to be Jewish, their Jewishness is not a reason to save them from criticism and not a reason to criticise Jewish people. It should be irrelevant and I know to some it isn't and that is wrong! We don't criticise all Austrians because Hitler was an Austrian!
Thanks Callum. Wasn't aware that HMG adopted the entire IHRA defenition against the advice of the HASC. Also didn't know that there was an Israel Apartheid Week (not a Jewish Apartheid Week) or that big hitters are trying to close it down. Let's not forget the JLC, UN Watch and Board of Deputies are avid supporters of Israel, and refuse to ctriticise any crimes committed by the regime or the failure to comply with UN resolutions.
why are we talking about israel?
Because Jews = Israel in their minds.
It's like saying all Muslims are to blame for human right abuses in Saudi Arabia as it is a Muslim state and any accusation of Islamophobia can be negated by "yeah, but look at Saudi Arabia."
At the risk of getting more condescending DMs, I stopped reading that Twitter account you seem to love when they posted something about Right of Return being anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish or something over the top, apologies for not being able to remember the specifics. It is undoubtedly a tactic used to couch anti-semitism, but it's also one used by the other side as well.
So you dismiss the evidence you can't remember as it doesn't suit your view but that's OK as, as you admit, you didn't read much of it.
No comments on Corbyn's support for terrorists either which you claimed was your issue before.
I actually read a lot of it. And I don't dismiss that there are anti-semitic elements within the Labour Party and that the response of leadership has been inexcusable.
Links to terrorists?
For what it's worth almost all governments and parties have people in them with 'links' to terrorists. Mrs Thatcher was the first prime minister to have talks with the IRA, but she was smart enough not to have any photographs taken to mark the occasion. The state of Israel was founded by people deemed terrorists at the time. It was people deemed terrorists who ended British rule in Ireland. The Nazis deemed the German resistance terrorists. Etc etc
again, why are you talking about the state of Israel (set up with a proposed Palastinian state by the UN by the way)?
Corbyn was not in government when he not only met with, and here's the key difference @JamesSeed and @SDAddick but SUPPORTED those terrorists. 100 times!
He wasn't negotiating peace or speaking to both sides. Just one side, just the terrorists who fitted into his world view. Hence the support for Hamas and Hesbollah and other deeply homophobic, misogynistic groups and Individuals, hence the acceptance of the constant anti-Semitism within Labour ranks.
I played a round of golf in Beirut once and Hessbollah were patrolling the 8th fairway, as it was flanking the Iranian embassy. I played up the 9th fairway.
This is a massively complex area, not really ideal material for forum debate which will end up with people falling out. I’ve worked extensively covering the troubles in the Middle East, and each visit showed thing certainly aren’t as black and white as you’d like.
Did I say it was ever black and white? (Other than in a Charlton protest context).
It's the Corbyn left who spout the Israel bad, anyone Anti-Isreal, no matter how racist, homophobic, misogynist, good creed.
There is no solution until both sides recognise that there has to be a fair, two state, solution. They could even go back to the two state solution set out by the UN in 1947 but which was rejected by the surrounding Arab states.
The changes in, ironically the hard line Islamist state of Saudi Arabia, might actually make that more likely as they withdraw support from the more extreme groups and seek an easier relationship with the US.
None of which excuses the jew hate found in the labour party, or elsewhere.
Good post. I've never encountered anyone anti Semitic in the labour party, which doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's ironic thst it's the racist Tory press who are whipping this up, and wouldn't dream of committing so many column inches to exposing racism in the Tory party. I don't trust anything i read in any of these papers.
That's just not true
The three main Jewish papers ran the same headline and story opposing the labour party stance. They are not Tory papers.
It's an lazy response to blame the "Tory" press.
If the Tory press are using this as a stick to beat Corbyn and the labour left its because it's a bloody great big stick they Jeremy and his cultists have been happy to leave lying around from them to pick up and use.
Three Jewish papers joined the Tory press in condemning Labour's refusal to give Israel a 'get out of jail free' card? Lucky they are all impartial.
So the labour party have done no wrong, it's all a Tory smear, the Jews and Tory press are ganging but labour doesn't have an anti-Semitism problem even though you've yet again conflated Jew hate with "giving Israel at get out of jail free card".
If you ever needed an example of the problem the labour has regarding anti-Semitism you only need to read your posts. Isreal this, Israel that, Tory conspiracy, blank cheque.
Blimey you’re very sure of yourself!
Yes, I have sincerely and long held views on racism and yes yes I'm sure that racism is a bad thing.
Are you not sure of your own views, Jim?
Don’t be silly Ben
Dont patronise me Jim.
If you have a point to make, then make, don't make this personal.
Mate you just virtually accused me of being racist on a public forum, and I’m being personal?
No, I didn't.
Don't worry if I thought you were racist there would have no virtually about it.
To be clear, I don't think you are racist.
To be clear, I think some in the labour party are.
Yes, you can have Christian Zionists and without them we probably wouldn't have a state of Israel. Before teh war, zionism was a minority movement within the Jewish people. Churchill was a passionate Zionist. I have a lot of hope for Israel as a nation, I know it sounds stupid but you look at the Eurovision Song contest and other things and see progressive elements within the country. Its young gives me hope for the future. I think there is peace in its future, but not whilst it has leaders like its current one. I think the way it has been settling on Palestinian land is an international crime. Does that make me anti-semitic? Maybe it does, but I respect the Jewish people greatly - those living in Israel and other countries - which has been what Jews have doing peacefully for centuries.
But what about the Rothschilds?
The Rothschilds are are family that have been profiting through the misery of others for centuries - making fortunes out of wars. Often funding both sides. This is mostly because they have banks in most countries and they are blamed for things they are not responisble for - liek starting wars! They happen to be Jewish, their Jewishness is not a reason to save them from criticism and not a reason to criticise Jewish people. It should be irrelevant and I know to some it isn't and that is wrong! We don't criticise all Austrians because Hitler was an Austrian!
Ok then, so can you, and to judge you by your own terms, without googling, give me a list of non Jewish Bankers and financiers who have made a shedload out of the "misery of others" or is it just Jews?
Thanks Callum. Wasn't aware that HMG adopted the entire IHRA defenition against the advice of the HASC. Also didn't know that there was an Israel Apartheid Week (not a Jewish Apartheid Week) or that big hitters are trying to close it down. Let's not forget the JLC, UN Watch and Board of Deputies are avid supporters of Israel, and refuse to ctriticise any crimes committed by the regime or the failure to comply with UN resolutions.
why are we talking about israel?
Because Jews = Israel in their minds.
It's like saying all Muslims are to blame for human right abuses in Saudi Arabia as it is a Muslim state and any accusation of Islamophobia can be negated by "yeah, but look at Saudi Arabia."
At the risk of getting more condescending DMs, I stopped reading that Twitter account you seem to love when they posted something about Right of Return being anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish or something over the top, apologies for not being able to remember the specifics. It is undoubtedly a tactic used to couch anti-semitism, but it's also one used by the other side as well.
So you dismiss the evidence you can't remember as it doesn't suit your view but that's OK as, as you admit, you didn't read much of it.
No comments on Corbyn's support for terrorists either which you claimed was your issue before.
I actually read a lot of it. And I don't dismiss that there are anti-semitic elements within the Labour Party and that the response of leadership has been inexcusable.
Links to terrorists?
For what it's worth almost all governments and parties have people in them with 'links' to terrorists. Mrs Thatcher was the first prime minister to have talks with the IRA, but she was smart enough not to have any photographs taken to mark the occasion. The state of Israel was founded by people deemed terrorists at the time. It was people deemed terrorists who ended British rule in Ireland. The Nazis deemed the German resistance terrorists. Etc etc
again, why are you talking about the state of Israel (set up with a proposed Palastinian state by the UN by the way)?
Corbyn was not in government when he not only met with, and here's the key difference @JamesSeed and @SDAddick but SUPPORTED those terrorists. 100 times!
He wasn't negotiating peace or speaking to both sides. Just one side, just the terrorists who fitted into his world view. Hence the support for Hamas and Hesbollah and other deeply homophobic, misogynistic groups and Individuals, hence the acceptance of the constant anti-Semitism within Labour ranks.
I played a round of golf in Beirut once and Hessbollah were patrolling the 8th fairway, as it was flanking the Iranian embassy. I played up the 9th fairway.
This is a massively complex area, not really ideal material for forum debate which will end up with people falling out. I’ve worked extensively covering the troubles in the Middle East, and each visit showed thing certainly aren’t as black and white as you’d like.
Did I say it was ever black and white? (Other than in a Charlton protest context).
It's the Corbyn left who spout the Israel bad, anyone Anti-Isreal, no matter how racist, homophobic, misogynist, good creed.
There is no solution until both sides recognise that there has to be a fair, two state, solution. They could even go back to the two state solution set out by the UN in 1947 but which was rejected by the surrounding Arab states.
The changes in, ironically the hard line Islamist state of Saudi Arabia, might actually make that more likely as they withdraw support from the more extreme groups and seek an easier relationship with the US.
None of which excuses the jew hate found in the labour party, or elsewhere.
Good post. I've never encountered anyone anti Semitic in the labour party, which doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's ironic thst it's the racist Tory press who are whipping this up, and wouldn't dream of committing so many column inches to exposing racism in the Tory party. I don't trust anything i read in any of these papers.
That's just not true
The three main Jewish papers ran the same headline and story opposing the labour party stance. They are not Tory papers.
It's an lazy response to blame the "Tory" press.
If the Tory press are using this as a stick to beat Corbyn and the labour left its because it's a bloody great big stick they Jeremy and his cultists have been happy to leave lying around from them to pick up and use.
Three Jewish papers joined the Tory press in condemning Labour's refusal to give Israel a 'get out of jail free' card? Lucky they are all impartial.
So the labour party have done no wrong, it's all a Tory smear, the Jews and Tory press are ganging but labour doesn't have an anti-Semitism problem even though you've yet again conflated Jew hate with "giving Israel at get out of jail free card".
If you ever needed an example of the problem the labour has regarding anti-Semitism you only need to read your posts. Isreal this, Israel that, Tory conspiracy, blank cheque.
Blimey you’re very sure of yourself!
Yes, I have sincerely and long held views on racism and yes yes I'm sure that racism is a bad thing.
Are you not sure of your own views, Jim?
Don’t be silly Ben
Dont patronise me Jim.
If you have a point to make, then make, don't make this personal.
Mate you just virtually accused me of being racist on a public forum, and I’m being personal?
No, I didn't.
Don't worry if I thought you were racist there would have no virtually about it.
To be clear, I don't think you are racist.
To be clear, I think some in the labour party are.
Too late mate. You’ll never get yer ‘ands on me frying pan.
Thanks Callum. Wasn't aware that HMG adopted the entire IHRA defenition against the advice of the HASC. Also didn't know that there was an Israel Apartheid Week (not a Jewish Apartheid Week) or that big hitters are trying to close it down. Let's not forget the JLC, UN Watch and Board of Deputies are avid supporters of Israel, and refuse to ctriticise any crimes committed by the regime or the failure to comply with UN resolutions.
why are we talking about israel?
Because Jews = Israel in their minds.
It's like saying all Muslims are to blame for human right abuses in Saudi Arabia as it is a Muslim state and any accusation of Islamophobia can be negated by "yeah, but look at Saudi Arabia."
At the risk of getting more condescending DMs, I stopped reading that Twitter account you seem to love when they posted something about Right of Return being anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish or something over the top, apologies for not being able to remember the specifics. It is undoubtedly a tactic used to couch anti-semitism, but it's also one used by the other side as well.
So you dismiss the evidence you can't remember as it doesn't suit your view but that's OK as, as you admit, you didn't read much of it.
No comments on Corbyn's support for terrorists either which you claimed was your issue before.
I actually read a lot of it. And I don't dismiss that there are anti-semitic elements within the Labour Party and that the response of leadership has been inexcusable.
Links to terrorists?
For what it's worth almost all governments and parties have people in them with 'links' to terrorists. Mrs Thatcher was the first prime minister to have talks with the IRA, but she was smart enough not to have any photographs taken to mark the occasion. The state of Israel was founded by people deemed terrorists at the time. It was people deemed terrorists who ended British rule in Ireland. The Nazis deemed the German resistance terrorists. Etc etc
again, why are you talking about the state of Israel (set up with a proposed Palastinian state by the UN by the way)?
Corbyn was not in government when he not only met with, and here's the key difference @JamesSeed and @SDAddick but SUPPORTED those terrorists. 100 times!
He wasn't negotiating peace or speaking to both sides. Just one side, just the terrorists who fitted into his world view. Hence the support for Hamas and Hesbollah and other deeply homophobic, misogynistic groups and Individuals, hence the acceptance of the constant anti-Semitism within Labour ranks.
I played a round of golf in Beirut once and Hessbollah were patrolling the 8th fairway, as it was flanking the Iranian embassy. I played up the 9th fairway.
This is a massively complex area, not really ideal material for forum debate which will end up with people falling out. I’ve worked extensively covering the troubles in the Middle East, and each visit showed thing certainly aren’t as black and white as you’d like.
Did I say it was ever black and white? (Other than in a Charlton protest context).
It's the Corbyn left who spout the Israel bad, anyone Anti-Isreal, no matter how racist, homophobic, misogynist, good creed.
There is no solution until both sides recognise that there has to be a fair, two state, solution. They could even go back to the two state solution set out by the UN in 1947 but which was rejected by the surrounding Arab states.
The changes in, ironically the hard line Islamist state of Saudi Arabia, might actually make that more likely as they withdraw support from the more extreme groups and seek an easier relationship with the US.
None of which excuses the jew hate found in the labour party, or elsewhere.
Good post. I've never encountered anyone anti Semitic in the labour party, which doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's ironic thst it's the racist Tory press who are whipping this up, and wouldn't dream of committing so many column inches to exposing racism in the Tory party. I don't trust anything i read in any of these papers.
That's just not true
The three main Jewish papers ran the same headline and story opposing the labour party stance. They are not Tory papers.
It's an lazy response to blame the "Tory" press.
If the Tory press are using this as a stick to beat Corbyn and the labour left its because it's a bloody great big stick they Jeremy and his cultists have been happy to leave lying around from them to pick up and use.
Three Jewish papers joined the Tory press in condemning Labour's refusal to give Israel a 'get out of jail free' card? Lucky they are all impartial.
So the labour party have done no wrong, it's all a Tory smear, the Jews and Tory press are ganging but labour doesn't have an anti-Semitism problem even though you've yet again conflated Jew hate with "giving Israel at get out of jail free card".
If you ever needed an example of the problem the labour has regarding anti-Semitism you only need to read your posts. Isreal this, Israel that, Tory conspiracy, blank cheque.
Blimey you’re very sure of yourself!
Yes, I have sincerely and long held views on racism and yes yes I'm sure that racism is a bad thing.
Are you not sure of your own views, Jim?
Don’t be silly Ben
Dont patronise me Jim.
If you have a point to make, then make, don't make this personal.
Mate you just virtually accused me of being racist on a public forum, and I’m being personal?
No, I didn't.
Don't worry if I thought you were racist there would have no virtually about it.
To be clear, I don't think you are racist.
To be clear, I think some in the labour party are.
Too late mate. You’ll never get yer ‘ands on me frying pan.
Yes, you can have Christian Zionists and without them we probably wouldn't have a state of Israel. Before teh war, zionism was a minority movement within the Jewish people. Churchill was a passionate Zionist. I have a lot of hope for Israel as a nation, I know it sounds stupid but you look at the Eurovision Song contest and other things and see progressive elements within the country. Its young gives me hope for the future. I think there is peace in its future, but not whilst it has leaders like its current one. I think the way it has been settling on Palestinian land is an international crime. Does that make me anti-semitic? Maybe it does, but I respect the Jewish people greatly - those living in Israel and other countries - which has been what Jews have doing peacefully for centuries.
But what about the Rothschilds?
The Rothschilds are are family that have been profiting through the misery of others for centuries - making fortunes out of wars. Often funding both sides. This is mostly because they have banks in most countries and they are blamed for things they are not responisble for - liek starting wars! They happen to be Jewish, their Jewishness is not a reason to save them from criticism and not a reason to criticise Jewish people. It should be irrelevant and I know to some it isn't and that is wrong! We don't criticise all Austrians because Hitler was an Austrian!
Ok then, so can you, and to judge you by your own terms, without googling, give me a list of non Jewish Bankers and financiers who have made a shedload out of the "misery of others" or is it just Jews?
I don't need to - virtually all of them. And that is why it unfair to use the Rothschild's Jewishness. The issue is the mentality of the banker and the powerful. So when people bring the jewishness into it - they are being anti-semitic. I wasn't because I was answering a question and was trying to play down the fact that it is a Jewish family whilst criticising them for what they are about, not who they are.
So a group of travellers turn up in your back yard, put a fence up and declare their environs as their property. Because the authorities deem them a pursecuted race they declare the encampment legal. Without compensation or your agreement. As the family expands they extend the fence further into your land. You go to court who rule they have to return to their previous territory. They refuse and indeed advance their fence further down the garden.Shrugs all round. You get your mates round and threaten them to move back but they get their extended family and the authorities to bully you. Kids throw rocks over the fence and they shoot them. Unpunished. So they move their fence forward.
Please excuse the racist undertones, but I am criticising the most racist country in the world today
No, I wont "excuse the racist undertones" even if you will.
Then please comment on the underlying racism of the Israeli regime, Ben.
Again, we debate Racism in the labour party and you scream "Whatabout Israel?"
Isreal's actions don't excuse the racism rampant in the Labour party.
Because the majority of the Labour Party are concerned with Israeli racism not racism by Jews. Obviously there are some pricks within the party, but the same with any large group, including CL. I have condemned Labour anti-semities in posts above, will you acknowledge that Israel is an abhorrent, racist regime?
So a group of travellers turn up in your back yard, put a fence up and declare their environs as their property. Because the authorities deem them a pursecuted race they declare the encampment legal. Without compensation or your agreement. As the family expands they extend the fence further into your land. You go to court who rule they have to return to their previous territory. They refuse and indeed advance their fence further down the garden.Shrugs all round. You get your mates round and threaten them to move back but they get their extended family and the authorities to bully you. Kids throw rocks over the fence and they shoot them. Unpunished. So they move their fence forward.
Please excuse the racist undertones, but I am criticising the most racist country in the world today
No, I wont "excuse the racist undertones" even if you will.
Then please comment on the underlying racism of the Israeli regime, Ben.
Again, we debate Racism in the labour party and you scream "Whatabout Israel?"
Isreal's actions don't excuse the racism rampant in the Labour party.
Because the majority of the Labour Party are concerned with Israeli racism not racism by Jews. Obviously there are some pricks within the party, but the same with any large group, including CL. I have condemned Labour anti-semities in posts above, will you acknowledge that Israel is an abhorrent, racist regime?
Only some pricks? Seems those "pricks" are running the show and are being slavishly followed by many. And you tried to pretend that the evidence of them being racist pricks might have been made up.
Yet again you try to excuse that racism by refering to Israel.
Every time. Every single time.
Point out labour anti-semitism and the response is "Whataboutery"
What about the Tories?
What about Isreal?
Never what about Hamas or what about Saudi Arabia? What about Venuzula or Soviet Russia? None relevant to a debate about racism in a British political party in 2018 but we can all play Whataboutery
I think the point is though, is that Labour needs to do more than just condemn the anti-semites and by not doing enough here, it allows people to pick up the stick and beat them. But the actions of Israel needs to be criticised and all of this makes that harder to do. Which I think is part of this for some. For them, it isn't actually about the Labour party, it sends a message to all parties not to go there.
I think Labour needs to sort out its position as a matter of urgency. But should never cease criticising Israel when it acts like it has been for decades. Part of this should be accepting that whilst many injustices occured in the formation of Israel, the solution lies in it finding a peaceful place with its neighbours. We are currently a long way from that, but things change over time.
Thanks Callum. Wasn't aware that HMG adopted the entire IHRA defenition against the advice of the HASC. Also didn't know that there was an Israel Apartheid Week (not a Jewish Apartheid Week) or that big hitters are trying to close it down. Let's not forget the JLC, UN Watch and Board of Deputies are avid supporters of Israel, and refuse to ctriticise any crimes committed by the regime or the failure to comply with UN resolutions.
why are we talking about israel?
Because Jews = Israel in their minds.
It's like saying all Muslims are to blame for human right abuses in Saudi Arabia as it is a Muslim state and any accusation of Islamophobia can be negated by "yeah, but look at Saudi Arabia."
At the risk of getting more condescending DMs, I stopped reading that Twitter account you seem to love when they posted something about Right of Return being anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish or something over the top, apologies for not being able to remember the specifics. It is undoubtedly a tactic used to couch anti-semitism, but it's also one used by the other side as well.
So you dismiss the evidence you can't remember as it doesn't suit your view but that's OK as, as you admit, you didn't read much of it.
No comments on Corbyn's support for terrorists either which you claimed was your issue before.
I actually read a lot of it. And I don't dismiss that there are anti-semitic elements within the Labour Party and that the response of leadership has been inexcusable.
Links to terrorists?
For what it's worth almost all governments and parties have people in them with 'links' to terrorists. Mrs Thatcher was the first prime minister to have talks with the IRA, but she was smart enough not to have any photographs taken to mark the occasion. The state of Israel was founded by people deemed terrorists at the time. It was people deemed terrorists who ended British rule in Ireland. The Nazis deemed the German resistance terrorists. Etc etc
again, why are you talking about the state of Israel (set up with a proposed Palastinian state by the UN by the way)?
Corbyn was not in government when he not only met with, and here's the key difference @JamesSeed and @SDAddick but SUPPORTED those terrorists. 100 times!
He wasn't negotiating peace or speaking to both sides. Just one side, just the terrorists who fitted into his world view. Hence the support for Hamas and Hesbollah and other deeply homophobic, misogynistic groups and Individuals, hence the acceptance of the constant anti-Semitism within Labour ranks.
I played a round of golf in Beirut once and Hessbollah were patrolling the 8th fairway, as it was flanking the Iranian embassy. I played up the 9th fairway.
This is a massively complex area, not really ideal material for forum debate which will end up with people falling out. I’ve worked extensively covering the troubles in the Middle East, and each visit showed thing certainly aren’t as black and white as you’d like.
Did I say it was ever black and white? (Other than in a Charlton protest context).
It's the Corbyn left who spout the Israel bad, anyone Anti-Isreal, no matter how racist, homophobic, misogynist, good creed.
There is no solution until both sides recognise that there has to be a fair, two state, solution. They could even go back to the two state solution set out by the UN in 1947 but which was rejected by the surrounding Arab states.
The changes in, ironically the hard line Islamist state of Saudi Arabia, might actually make that more likely as they withdraw support from the more extreme groups and seek an easier relationship with the US.
None of which excuses the jew hate found in the labour party, or elsewhere.
Good post. I've never encountered anyone anti Semitic in the labour party, which doesn't mean there aren't any. But it's ironic thst it's the racist Tory press who are whipping this up, and wouldn't dream of committing so many column inches to exposing racism in the Tory party. I don't trust anything i read in any of these papers.
That's just not true
The three main Jewish papers ran the same headline and story opposing the labour party stance. They are not Tory papers.
It's an lazy response to blame the "Tory" press.
If the Tory press are using this as a stick to beat Corbyn and the labour left its because it's a bloody great big stick they Jeremy and his cultists have been happy to leave lying around from them to pick up and use.
But the reason given by the three main Jewish papers for their joint editorial was "the existential threat to Jewish life in this country that would be posed by a Jeremy Corbyn-led government"; which is so disproportionate that it borders on the hysterical.
Their other focus was the decision of the Labour Party National Executive Committee not to adopt as worded the 'examples' appended to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's 'Working Definition of Antisemitism' (which the IHRA itself says "could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to"), but instead to adopt a longer and more detailed 'NEC Code of Conduct: Antisemitism' that includes the IHRA definition but is worded so that it can be used to take disciplinary action against any member accused of antisemitism.
I posted links to the full text of both documents in an earlier post together with a question that I repeat below.
I encourage people to read both (neither is very long), and then having done so please explain how anybody who supported the 'NEC Code of Conduct: Antisemitism' could reasonably be accused of being “an anti-Semite and racist” as Margaret Hodge has accused Jeremy Corbyn of being for supporting the 'NEC Code'?
So a group of travellers turn up in your back yard, put a fence up and declare their environs as their property. Because the authorities deem them a pursecuted race they declare the encampment legal. Without compensation or your agreement. As the family expands they extend the fence further into your land. You go to court who rule they have to return to their previous territory. They refuse and indeed advance their fence further down the garden.Shrugs all round. You get your mates round and threaten them to move back but they get their extended family and the authorities to bully you. Kids throw rocks over the fence and they shoot them. Unpunished. So they move their fence forward.
Please excuse the racist undertones, but I am criticising the most racist country in the world today
No, I wont "excuse the racist undertones" even if you will.
Then please comment on the underlying racism of the Israeli regime, Ben.
Again, we debate Racism in the labour party and you scream "Whatabout Israel?"
Isreal's actions don't excuse the racism rampant in the Labour party.
Because the majority of the Labour Party are concerned with Israeli racism not racism by Jews. Obviously there are some pricks within the party, but the same with any large group, including CL. I have condemned Labour anti-semities in posts above, will you acknowledge that Israel is an abhorrent, racist regime?
Only some pricks? Seems those "pricks" are running the show and are being slavishly followed by many. And you tried to pretend that the evidence of them being racist pricks might have been made up.
Yet again you try to excuse that racism by refering to Israel.
Every time. Every single time.
Point out labour anti-semitism and the response is "Whataboutery"
What about the Tories?
What about Isreal?
Never what about Hamas or what about Saudi Arabia? What about Venuzula or Soviet Russia? None relevant to a debate about racism in a British political party in 2018 but we can all play Whataboutery
Time for bed
4/10/36 never forget, never again.
Some would say that the lessons of these abhorrant crimes against a whole people is why people should criticise Isreal, and Saudi Aribia and any oppressive regime. That criticism of Saudi Arabia should never be along the lines of bloody Muslims or bloody Arabs! And the same should apply to Israel.
So a group of travellers turn up in your back yard, put a fence up and declare their environs as their property. Because the authorities deem them a pursecuted race they declare the encampment legal. Without compensation or your agreement. As the family expands they extend the fence further into your land. You go to court who rule they have to return to their previous territory. They refuse and indeed advance their fence further down the garden.Shrugs all round. You get your mates round and threaten them to move back but they get their extended family and the authorities to bully you. Kids throw rocks over the fence and they shoot them. Unpunished. So they move their fence forward.
Please excuse the racist undertones, but I am criticising the most racist country in the world today
No, I wont "excuse the racist undertones" even if you will.
Then please comment on the underlying racism of the Israeli regime, Ben.
Again, we debate Racism in the labour party and you scream "Whatabout Israel?"
Isreal's actions don't excuse the racism rampant in the Labour party.
Because the majority of the Labour Party are concerned with Israeli racism not racism by Jews. Obviously there are some pricks within the party, but the same with any large group, including CL. I have condemned Labour anti-semities in posts above, will you acknowledge that Israel is an abhorrent, racist regime?
Only some pricks? Seems those "pricks" are running the show and are being slavishly followed by many. And you tried to pretend that the evidence of them being racist pricks might have been made up.
Yet again you try to excuse that racism by refering to Israel.
Every time. Every single time.
Point out labour anti-semitism and the response is "Whataboutery"
What about the Tories?
What about Isreal?
Never what about Hamas or what about Saudi Arabia? What about Venuzula or Soviet Russia? None relevant to a debate about racism in a British political party in 2018 but we can all play Whataboutery
Time for bed
4/10/36 never forget, never again.
Ben. A lot of mud slinging at Labour there. No doubt some will stick. The reason I accuse Israel repeatedly of racism is because of their oppression of Palestinians. Refute it or shut up.
Cable Street? Jews and Labour left wingers stood side by side against Moseley, supported by the Tory press and party. You and Margaret Hodge should do your history. Please confirm that Israel are the most racist regime on the planet or justify your stance. In your prodigious posts on this thread, you have not acknowleged a single crticism of them. Hidden agenda?
I think a while back Corbyn made a statement on Holocaust rememberance day. It was along the lines of we should never forget the millions who died and the suffering of their descendants. He got hammered for it because he didn't mention them as Jews - but who else was he referring to on Holocaust rememberance day?
BTW, I am seriously pissed that I am alone in highlighting these issues. Are people scared of being labelled anti-semites for criticising Israel? Does it help if I reveal I am circumcised?
What is interesting to me, is that somebody who I believe is as non racist as it is possible to be is accused of being a racist. That is different to being critical of how he handles or mis-handles the issues within teh Labour party. It is interesting to me that a man of peace - whether you agree with his pacifism or not - is accused of being a supporter of terrorists.
I suppose it is less interesting, that people may try to do this. What interests me is whether people actually believe them. And that is why, if you are angry, I say understand what you are angry about, don't be angry because you are told to be!
Invited two IRA members to parliament two weeks after the Brighton bombing. Attended Bloody Sunday commemoration with bomber Brendan McKenna. Attended meeting with Provisional IRA member Raymond McCartney. Hosted IRA linked Mitchell McLaughlin in parliament. Spoke alongside IRA terrorist Martina Anderson. Attended Sinn Fein dinner with IRA bomber Gerry Kelly. Chaired Irish republican event with IRA bomber Brendan MacFarlane. Attended Bobby Sands commemoration honouring IRA terrorists. Stood in minute’s silence for IRA gunmen shot dead by the SAS. Refused to condemn the IRA in Sky News interview. Refused to condemn the IRA on Question Time. Refused to condemn IRA violence in BBC radio interview. Signed EDM after IRA Poppy massacre massacre blaming Britain for the deaths. Arrested while protesting in support of Brighton bomber’s co-defendants. Lobbied government to improve visiting conditions for IRA killers. Attended Irish republican event calling for armed conflict against Britain. Hired suspected IRA man Ronan Bennett as a parliamentary assistant. Hired another aide closely linked to several convicted IRA terrorists. Heavily involved with IRA sympathising newspaper London Labour Briefing. Put up £20,000 bail money for IRA terror suspect Roisin McAliskey. Didn’t support IRA ceasefire. Said Hamas and Hezbollah are his “friends“. Called for Hamas to be removed from terror banned list. Called Hamas “serious and hard-working“. Attended wreath-laying at grave of Munich massacre terrorist. Attended conference with Hamas and PFLP. Photographed smiling with Hezbollah flag. Attended rally with Hezbollah and Al-Muhajiroun. Repeatedly shared platforms with PFLP plane hijacker. Hired aide who praised Hamas’ “spirit of resistance“. Accepted £20,000 for state TV channel of terror-sponsoring Iranian regime. Opposed banning Britons from travelling to Syria to fight for ISIS. Defended rights of fighters returning from Syria. Said ISIS supporters should not be prosecuted. Compared fighters returning from Syria to Nelson Mandela. Said the death of Osama Bin Laden was a “tragedy“. Wouldn’t sanction drone strike to kill ISIS leader. Voted to allow ISIS fighters to return from Syria. Opposed shoot to kill. Attended event organised by terrorist sympathising IHRC. Signed letter defending Lockerbie bombing suspects. Wrote letter in support of conman accused of fundraising for ISIS. Spoke of “friendship” with Mo Kozbar, who called for destruction of Israel. Attended event with Abdullah Djaballah, who called for holy war against UK. Called drone strikes against terrorists “obscene”. Boasted about “opposing anti-terror legislation”. Said laws banning jihadis from returning to Britain are “strange”. Accepted £5,000 donation from terror supporter Ted Honderich. Accepted £2,800 trip to Gaza from banned Islamist organisation Interpal. Called Ibrahim Hewitt, extremist and chair of Interpal, a “very good friend”. Accepted two more trips from the pro-Hamas group PRC. Speaker at conference hosted by pro-Hamas group MEMO. Met Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh several times. Hosted meeting with Mousa Abu Maria of banned group Islamic Jihad. Patron of Palestine Solidarity Campaign – marches attended by Hezbollah. Compared Israel to ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah and al-Qaeda. Said we should not make “value judgements” about Britons who fight for ISIS. Received endorsement from Hamas. Attended event with Islamic extremist Suliman Gani. Chaired Stop the War, who praised “internationalism and solidarity” of ISIS. Praised Raed Salah, who was jailed for inciting violence in Israel. Signed letter defending jihadist advocacy group Cage. Met Dyab Jahjah, who praised the killing of British soldiers. Shared platform with representative of extremist cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Compared ISIS to US military in interview on Russia Today. Opposed proscription of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Attended conference which called on Iraqis to kill British soldiers. Attended Al-Quds Day demonstration in support of destruction of Israel. Supported Hamas and ISIS-linked Viva Palestina group. Attended protest with Islamic extremist Moazzam Begg. Made the “case for Iran” at event hosted by Khomeinist group. Photographed smiling with Azzam Tamimi, who backed suicide bombings. Photographed with Abdel Atwan, who sympathised with attacks on US troops. Said Hamas should “have tea with the Queen”. Attended ‘Meet the Resistance’ event with Hezbollah MP Hussein El Haj. Attended event with Haifa Zangana, who praised Palestinian “mujahideen”. Defended the infamous anti-Semitic Hamas supporter Stephen Sizer. Attended event with pro-Hamas and Hezbollah group Naturei Karta. Backed Holocaust denying anti-Zionist extremist Paul Eisen. Photographed with Abdul Raoof Al Shayeb, later jailed for terror offences. Mocked “anti-terror hysteria” while opposing powers for security services. Named on speakers list for conference with Hamas sympathiser Ismail Patel. Criticised drone strike that killed Jihadi John. Said the 7/7 bombers had been denied “hope and opportunity”. Said 9/11 was “manipulated” to make it look like bin Laden was responsible. Failed to unequivocally condemn the 9/11 attacks. Called Columbian terror group M-19 “comrades”. Blamed beheading of Alan Henning on Britain. Gave speech in support of Gaddafi regime. Signed EDM spinning for Slobodan Milosevic. Blamed Tunisia terror attack on “austerity”. Voted against banning support for the IRA. Voted against the Prevention of Terrorism Act three times during the Troubles. Voted against emergency counter-terror laws after 9/11. Voted against stricter punishments for being a member of a terror group. Voted against criminalising the encouragement of terrorism. Voted against banning al-Qaeda. Voted against outlawing the glorification of terror. Voted against control orders. Voted against increased funding for the security services to combat terrorism.
Whilst not agreeing with everything on that list, there's a big difference between siding with terrorists and opposing the drift towards an authoritarian state.
BTW, I am seriously pissed that I am alone in highlighting these issues. Are people scared of being labelled anti-semites for criticising Israel? Does it help if I reveal I am circumcised?
Of course it is fine for a newspaper like The Mail to accuse Corbyn of being racist. A paper that has been accused of this all the time. And it is not all Jews that think Corbyn is anti-semetic as can be seen below.
Jesus Christ blaming Jews for anti semitism and some ones crawled out beneath their rock and started spinning the Rothschild conspiracy theory. The anti semites of the 30s must be gleeful their work is still in use.
Actually made me a bit sad that I post on this board, it’s shameful.
BTW, I am seriously pissed that I am alone in highlighting these issues. Are people scared of being labelled anti-semites for criticising Israel? Does it help if I reveal I am circumcised?
On the thread that was closed down I gave my heart felt feelings and opinions and can't really be arsed to do them again. This isn't a debate it is one person shouting so what is the point. Who is handing out all the flags and why?
Incidentally I have attended many anti-fascist and anti-racist marches and demonstrations over the years and the flags flown were all from left wing or anarchist groups.
As I think I tried to explain on the other thread possibly to @kentaddick (apologies if wrong) that throughout history Jews have been used as patsies and then abandoned, my fear (and I am hardwired for this) is that may be happening again. It worries me that right wing groups are now supporting the nation state of Israel as I fear the day when that becomes the suggested place that we all live..
There is a very interesting trend in both the UK and Australian Labour Party away from their traditional rock-solid support for Israel.
In both cases a big reason for that change in attitude is because large Muslim urban populations are gaining influence in these parties, both internally as candidates and as a voting bloc, and it becomes impossible to hold the traditional line on supporting Israel.
Most of Labour's support in Sydney comes from the western part of the city where large ethnic groups of Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians etc have pushed hard for a change in policy towards Israel and now they have achieved it and it is very similar story in Melbourne.
The last Labour government here was very embarrassingly forced to abstain on a UN vote on granting Palestine observer status in 2012 at the UN when the PM Julia Gillard had wanted to vote against the motion - internal party pressure forced her into a backdown.
The hard-left takeover of UK Labour has exacerbated this trend there but even if Corbyn were not around the large Muslim populations in several major UK cities means that pressure would have grown anyway no matter who the leader was.
Corbyn is not an idiot, he knows very well that there is a very dangerous anti-Semitic fringe in his party - but he also knows he wouldn't be leader without them so pretends that all is rosy in the garden.
What is interesting to me, is that somebody who I believe is as non racist as it is possible to be is accused of being a racist. That is different to being critical of how he handles or mis-handles the issues within teh Labour party. It is interesting to me that a man of peace - whether you agree with his pacifism or not - is accused of being a supporter of terrorists.
I suppose it is less interesting, that people may try to do this. What interests me is whether people actually believe them. And that is why, if you are angry, I say understand what you are angry about, don't be angry because you are told to be!
There is a very interesting trend in both the UK and Australian Labour Party away from their traditional rock-solid support for Israel.
In both cases a big reason for that change in attitude is because large Muslim urban populations are gaining influence in these parties, both internally as candidates and as a voting bloc, and it becomes impossible to hold the traditional line on supporting Israel.
Comments
Don't worry if I thought you were racist there would have no virtually about it.
To be clear, I don't think you are racist.
To be clear, I think some in the labour party are.
Yet again you try to excuse that racism by refering to Israel.
Every time. Every single time.
Point out labour anti-semitism and the response is "Whataboutery"
What about the Tories?
What about Isreal?
Never what about Hamas or what about Saudi Arabia? What about Venuzula or Soviet Russia? None relevant to a debate about racism in a British political party in 2018 but we can all play Whataboutery
Time for bed
4/10/36 never forget, never again.
I think Labour needs to sort out its position as a matter of urgency. But should never cease criticising Israel when it acts like it has been for decades. Part of this should be accepting that whilst many injustices occured in the formation of Israel, the solution lies in it finding a peaceful place with its neighbours. We are currently a long way from that, but things change over time.
Their other focus was the decision of the Labour Party National Executive Committee not to adopt as worded the 'examples' appended to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's 'Working Definition of Antisemitism' (which the IHRA itself says "could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to"), but instead to adopt a longer and more detailed 'NEC Code of Conduct: Antisemitism' that includes the IHRA definition but is worded so that it can be used to take disciplinary action against any member accused of antisemitism.
I posted links to the full text of both documents in an earlier post together with a question that I repeat below.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/node/196
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/app/uploads/2018/07/Labour-Party-Code-of-Conduct-on-antisemitism.pdf
I encourage people to read both (neither is very long), and then having done so please explain how anybody who supported the 'NEC Code of Conduct: Antisemitism' could reasonably be accused of being “an anti-Semite and racist” as Margaret Hodge has accused Jeremy Corbyn of being for supporting the 'NEC Code'?
Cable Street? Jews and Labour left wingers stood side by side against Moseley, supported by the Tory press and party. You and Margaret Hodge should do your history. Please confirm that Israel are the most racist regime on the planet or justify your stance. In your prodigious posts on this thread, you have not acknowleged a single crticism of them. Hidden agenda?
I suppose it is less interesting, that people may try to do this. What interests me is whether people actually believe them. And that is why, if you are angry, I say understand what you are angry about, don't be angry because you are told to be!
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitisim-jews-israel-labour-party-bds-jewish-coalition-palestine-a8458601.html
Oh sorry - the views and opinions of some Jews don't count!
Actually made me a bit sad that I post on this board, it’s shameful.
Incidentally I have attended many anti-fascist and anti-racist marches and demonstrations over the years and the flags flown were all from left wing or anarchist groups.
As I think I tried to explain on the other thread possibly to @kentaddick (apologies if wrong) that throughout history Jews have been used as patsies and then abandoned, my fear (and I am hardwired for this) is that may be happening again. It worries me that right wing groups are now supporting the nation state of Israel as I fear the day when that becomes the suggested place that we all live..
In both cases a big reason for that change in attitude is because large Muslim urban populations are gaining influence in these parties, both internally as candidates and as a voting bloc, and it becomes impossible to hold the traditional line on supporting Israel.
Most of Labour's support in Sydney comes from the western part of the city where large ethnic groups of Turks, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, Syrians etc have pushed hard for a change in policy towards Israel and now they have achieved it and it is very similar story in Melbourne.
The last Labour government here was very embarrassingly forced to abstain on a UN vote on granting Palestine observer status in 2012 at the UN when the PM Julia Gillard had wanted to vote against the motion - internal party pressure forced her into a backdown.
The hard-left takeover of UK Labour has exacerbated this trend there but even if Corbyn were not around the large Muslim populations in several major UK cities means that pressure would have grown anyway no matter who the leader was.
Corbyn is not an idiot, he knows very well that there is a very dangerous anti-Semitic fringe in his party - but he also knows he wouldn't be leader without them so pretends that all is rosy in the garden.