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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • If it wasn't for Gina Miller we would not even be having this vote. The whole country, at least the sane part, are indebted to her.

    We're not!
  • Loving the "Bollocks to Brexit" bus driving behind Sophie Raworth on the news. So succinctly put...
  • New business for Parliament tomorrow...the Ivory Bill. Cue jokes about Donald Tusk!
  • bobmunro said:

    Rizzo said:

    Man this is brutal for May, taking shots from all sides with hardly, if any support from her own benches.

    I'd almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't such an utter disgrace.
    She is getting all she deserves. I cannot imagine there has ever been a worse PM and the history books will quite rightly not be kind to her.
    She had a very difficult task with Brexit where there is almost no solution that a majority would back. It was a poison chalice.


    But she took the job and has made a bad situation worse with her red lines, triggering A50 before she had any plan (aided and abetted by Corbyn on that) and threw away her majority in an unnecessary General Election.
    You do have to admire that you will blame Corbyn for anything.
    Please explain Corbyn s contribution to the last 30 minutes of this debate.
    No, you're right, Brexit is all his fault.
    I never said it was his fault.
    I asked you a question if you can't answer it then fair enough.
    Why would you step-in again when May is doing a nice job all on her own of f*cking this up? It's not a debate, it's PMQs - open to all MPs, not just Corbyn.
    There are those, possibly freakish extremists, who might argue that times of national crisis, and we now appear to be experiencing one, requires a different, less nakedly partisan, approach.

    The statesman-like thing to do would be to offer some form of cooperation and compromise in the national interest.

    And, in fairness, it might even be a vote winner.

    It won't happen, but hey...

    History will be unkind in its judgement.
  • Tom Peck:

    “The deal could not be voted upon, because it could not possibly pass. Nor can it be renegotiated, at least if the EU is to be believed. And the alternative - leaving the European Union with no deal - will not be allowed, because parliament has said so, via Dominic Grieve's amendment.

    Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn says he wants a general election, so that he can renegotiate a "jobs first Brexit" that involves a "permanent customs union and a strong single market deal". This is a fantasy.”
  • edited December 2018

    bobmunro said:

    Rizzo said:

    Man this is brutal for May, taking shots from all sides with hardly, if any support from her own benches.

    I'd almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't such an utter disgrace.
    She is getting all she deserves. I cannot imagine there has ever been a worse PM and the history books will quite rightly not be kind to her.
    She had a very difficult task with Brexit where there is almost no solution that a majority would back. It was a poison chalice.


    But she took the job and has made a bad situation worse with her red lines, triggering A50 before she had any plan (aided and abetted by Corbyn on that) and threw away her majority in an unnecessary General Election.
    Quite.

    Surprised the Tories didn't throw the last election and let Labour and Corbyn carry the can. I suppose you could say Labour countered this by letting the unelectable Corbyn be their leading light.

    Someone somewhere has played a blinder.
    I don't think anyone in either of the two main parties can be said to have played a 'blinder'. If either of them come out of this looking good, it is entirely down to idiots luck.

    The current political class in the UK is schckingly bad isn’t it?

    When you yearn for the level of contribution and debate given by hesletine, Clarke, brown, Blair, Smith, Cook and Major you know you have issues.

    bobmunro said:

    Rizzo said:

    Man this is brutal for May, taking shots from all sides with hardly, if any support from her own benches.

    I'd almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't such an utter disgrace.
    She is getting all she deserves. I cannot imagine there has ever been a worse PM and the history books will quite rightly not be kind to her.
    She had a very difficult task with Brexit where there is almost no solution that a majority would back. It was a poison chalice.


    But she took the job and has made a bad situation worse with her red lines, triggering A50 before she had any plan (aided and abetted by Corbyn on that) and threw away her majority in an unnecessary General Election.
    Quite.

    Surprised the Tories didn't throw the last election and let Labour and Corbyn carry the can. I suppose you could say Labour countered this by letting the unelectable Corbyn be their leading light.

    Someone somewhere has played a blinder.
    I don't think anyone in either of the two main parties can be said to have played a 'blinder'. If either of them come out of this looking good, it is entirely down to idiots luck.
    You're quite right.
    Nobody in the history of politics could be that clever.
    You think this is bad. Wait until they start having to pick the bones out of the aftermath!

    To be honest, if once this was sorted out, both Labour and the Tories were banned from having any kind of authority or power ever again, most people would be quite happy with that. Both parties are wretched monoliths stuck to a bygone era and seem to have zero relevance to modern Britain.
  • stonemuse said:

    Tom Peck:

    “The deal could not be voted upon, because it could not possibly pass. Nor can it be renegotiated, at least if the EU is to be believed. And the alternative - leaving the European Union with no deal - will not be allowed, because parliament has said so, via Dominic Grieve's amendment.

    Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn says he wants a general election, so that he can renegotiate a "jobs first Brexit" that involves a "permanent customs union and a strong single market deal". This is a fantasy.”

    Thus leaving the one, obvious option.

    But May refuses to countenance it because she is an odious quarter-wit.
  • Democracy in motion. You try for two years to get a deal acceptable to your party, it never did exist as a possibility and what you have negotiated is so far away from being able to pass a vote, mainly because of Ireland, where the EU has already conceded as much as it can, that it will never pass,

    Nor will no deal.

    Judges in Europe allow us to withdraw Article 50. Probably should do that given there aren’t any other options,
  • edited December 2018
    Corbyn could renogotiate with different red lines - we know that labour does not have red lines on free movement and even a customs union. But having said that, there is only one way out of this. That is a second referendum. A hard Brexit won't happen, the house has already made it clear it won't let that happen, May's deal won't get passed - she can't change it and she knows it, MPs know there would be a massive backlash if they just cancelled Brexit and MPs are not going to vote to lose their jobs so an election is unlikely - so whatever side of the fence you sit, surely it is obvious where all this is heading!

    The only other outcome if there isn't another referendum would be an election. Which would be the last result if it was teh only way to stop a hard Brexit.
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  • Corbyn could renogotiate with different red lines - we know that labour does not have red lines on free movement and even a customs union. But having said that, there is only one way out of this. That is a second referendum. A hard Brexit won't happen, the house has already made it clear it won't let that happen, May's deal won't get passed - she can't change it and she knows it, MPs know there would be a massive backlash if they just cancelled Brexit and MPs are not going to vote to lose their jobs so an election is unlikely - so whatever side of the fence you sit, surely it is obvious where all this is heading!

    The only other outcome if there isn't another referendum would be an election. Which would be the last result if it was teh only way to stop a hard Brexit.

    Then what are the woman’s motives for perseveringly with it ?

  • edited December 2018

    Corbyn could renogotiate with different red lines - we know that labour does not have red lines on free movement and even a customs union. But having said that, there is only one way out of this. That is a second referendum. A hard Brexit won't happen, the house has already made it clear it won't let that happen, May's deal won't get passed - she can't change it and she knows it, MPs know there would be a massive backlash if they just cancelled Brexit and MPs are not going to vote to lose their jobs so an election is unlikely - so whatever side of the fence you sit, surely it is obvious where all this is heading!

    The only other outcome if there isn't another referendum would be an election. Which would be the last result if it was teh only way to stop a hard Brexit.

    Then what are the woman’s motives for perseveringly with it ?

    She is stubborn. If you look at the whole process, she has made promises to one group of her MPs to get them not to vote against the government, then she denies promises were made! This is a desperate person, a stubborn person just hanging on as long as she can with no real plan. That people want to call it resilience is ridiculous.

    Apologies for this analogy to younger lifers, but if you recall playing pinball - you can get situations where the ball gets stuck. If you nudge the table to get it free you risk tilting it. But ultimately, it is all you can do. If May was playing pinball, she would still be waiting for the ball to free itself. It frightens me that somebody with such poor judgement is in charge of this country!
  • Chizz said:

    Why didn't she simply say to the hard-line Brexiters "vote for this deal, or I will call a second referendum"? Their bluff would have been called. If she failed to win the vote (probably) she could hold her head up and say to the Brexiters you voted for it, by voting down the deal. And then take final instruction from the people.

    She still can.
  • edited December 2018

    Chizz said:

    Why didn't she simply say to the hard-line Brexiters "vote for this deal, or I will call a second referendum"? Their bluff would have been called. If she failed to win the vote (probably) she could hold her head up and say to the Brexiters you voted for it, by voting down the deal. And then take final instruction from the people.

    She still can.
    But she has said she won't. Her biggest error is her failure to see her biggest barrier are the hard Brexiters in her own party.
  • Scoham said:
    I assume those actually are all minus numbers!
  • se9addick said:

    Scoham said:
    I assume those actually are all minus numbers!
    Yes, they are all minuses.
  • Rudd, Johnson, gove, Rabb, Davis. What a stream of talent:
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  • se9addick said:

    Scoham said:
    I assume those actually are all minus numbers!
    Yes
  • Some of the coverage here has been of complete incredulity at what is going on with Brexit - the headline story on the news I just watched about it started 'The British voted to leave the EU but they don't know how to do it'. The idea of setting this all up without knowing how to actually complete it is met with total perplexity. Embarrassing.

    But it was going to be easy/ The EU was going to give us everything we wanted. Some of the MPS jumping up and down the most told us that would happen!
  • edited December 2018

    bobmunro said:

    Rizzo said:

    Man this is brutal for May, taking shots from all sides with hardly, if any support from her own benches.

    I'd almost feel sorry for her if she wasn't such an utter disgrace.
    She is getting all she deserves. I cannot imagine there has ever been a worse PM and the history books will quite rightly not be kind to her.
    She had a very difficult task with Brexit where there is almost no solution that a majority would back. It was a poison chalice.


    But she took the job and has made a bad situation worse with her red lines, triggering A50 before she had any plan (aided and abetted by Corbyn on that) and threw away her majority in an unnecessary General Election.
    You do have to admire that you will blame Corbyn for anything.
    Please explain Corbyn s contribution to the last 30 minutes of this debate.
    No, you're right, Brexit is all his fault.
    I never said it was his fault.
    I asked you a question if you can't answer it then fair enough.
    Why would you step-in again when May is doing a nice job all on her own of f*cking this up? It's not a debate, it's PMQs - open to all MPs, not just Corbyn.
    Leaders lead.
    That's almost as good as Brexit means Brexit. Almost.
    Well as Corbyn supports Brexit we are in agreement
    Bloody Corbyn, triggering Brexit, lying to the public, campaigning hard for Brexit, f*cking up Brexit negotiations. It's all his fault.
    Sorry I must have missed all the times Corbyn has been on tv campaigning hard against Brexit.
    What's your point exactly?
    My point is that the Labour leader wants Brexit to happen.
    If and when it does happen he is hoping that things go tits up allowing him to win an election and grab power.
    Well yeah, obviously. Also a bit late to stop Brexit now isn't it.
  • edited December 2018

    Rudd, Johnson, gove, Rabb, Davis. What a stream of talent:

    And most of them told us how easy it would be.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy

    I don't think these Brexiteers know what they even want besides their own bank accounts bolstered.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    When will Labour call for that vote of no confidence? It will be remarkable if they don’t given the situation but I’m not holding my breath. I think the next big move will be 48 letters dropping onto the 1922 committees desk. The hard brexiters can’t risk May getting something out of Brussels and getting her deal through.

    The short answer is probably "after she loses the vote".

    I think Labour's position is that they don't want to fail to topple her by calling the vote of confidence before she has lost the vote. (sorry for the double-triple negatives!) - MPs would be reluctant to decapitate the Government before putting the deal to the vote.

    So, my guess is that they are waiting for the newly renegotiated deal (that both sides of the deal said could not be renegotiated) to be brought back and then voted down.

    As for my guess as to "when"? Well, I have it on good authority that Theresa May will complete this before Christmas. But she hasn't yet decided how much Christmas is going to be delayed yet.
    People may criticise this, but it makes sense. Why do it and lose it. Timing is everything here.
  • Expect to hear about No deal plans now being activated, including putting people on 90 days notice of redundancy by Christmas
  • edited December 2018
    RedPanda said:

    Rudd, Johnson, gove, Rabb, Davis. What a stream of talent:

    And most of them told us how easy it would be.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy

    I don't think these Brexiteers know what they even want besides their own bank accounts bolstered.
    The problem is, depite telling us what everybody who voted Brexit wanted, the same Brexiter politicians can't even agree with themselves!

    May said those who want a second referendum should be open and honest what it means - well it means the people can say we want Brexit and get on with it, or it could mean the people say- this isn't what we were sold, we have changed our minds, Not sure about finding out what it is is undemocratic. May is saying her deal is what they voted for and everybody else is telling her it isn't!
  • I can only think of one positive out of labour and SNP going for a vote of no confidence in the government and losing and that would be it would more likely hasten the end of Corbyn as the leader of the Labour Party than not
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!