I mean, even if those 'facts' were halfway true then immigration is way, way down the list of causes. Housing standards, pay gaps, lack of employment, lack of education funding, broken systems everywhere, systems that are entirely the responsibility of the UK government. And yet it's a few poxy Romanians to blame. Cut off a leg indeed - because of an ingrown toenail
Still getting my head around Valiantphil's completely insane post there. I've had absolutely enough of this shit
It’s the get on with it mentality. Things have changed deal with it. A complete lack of empathy or understanding of the situations and consequences.
@ShootersHillGuru Slightly off topic I know, but there was a report in the news this week that 1 in 25 people are homeless in some parts of the UK.
IMO this is our first priority as a nation.
My hope for future generations is that they are not using "beds in sheds' or slums like we had in the 1950's.
There was another report in the press this week that class sizes in some U.K. schools have reached 100.
This is why I feel we have to turn off the tap before we fix the hole in the bath.
Brexit may indeed be like cutting off a limb - but this is often done (in medicine) to save the whole body.
@Valiantphil, I share your concern for the homeless and you are right it is a damning issue that should embarrass any country into putting it right. The current massive rise in homelessness is not down to increased migration but in the main due to government policies including benefit changes/Universal Credit and the swingeing cuts made on safety nets and prevention.
I was not a big fan of the Blair government but they did all but eliminate homelessness with only those who refused accommodation being left without some kind of shelter.
Still getting my head around Valiantphil's completely insane post there. I've had absolutely enough of this shit
It’s the get on with it mentality. Things have changed deal with it. A complete lack of empathy or understanding of the situations and consequences.
@ShootersHillGuru Slightly off topic I know, but there was a report in the news this week that 1 in 25 people are homeless in some parts of the UK.
IMO this is our first priority as a nation.
My hope for future generations is that they are not using "beds in sheds' or slums like we had in the 1950's.
There was another report in the press this week that class sizes in some U.K. schools have reached 100.
This is why I feel we have to turn off the tap before we fix the hole in the bath.
Brexit may indeed be like cutting off a limb - but this is often done (in medicine) to save the whole body.
This post is almost the perfect storm of factual embellishment, xenophobia and woolly thinking that characterises Brexit
Just did some very basic research. Only link on the Google first page of results when searching for "100 children class size" is a Sun story about a school in Sutton.
Reading through that, it doesn't mention immigration, or over-subscription anywhere, the giant class size is purely down to a £2.8 billion cut in the education budget and a lack of Maths and Science teachers.
Seriously. Valiantphil has broken me. I hope Brexit collapses and its web of moronic falsehood dissolves in a wash of criminal convictions for the engineers of this treasonous scam
In what fucking school is there a classroom big enough??
Think they might be confusing it with a lecture (or maybe even assembly!).
I can imagine it now. Daily Mail get hold of a photo of kids in an assembly somewhere with a large Muslim population, so some kids have headscarves or are the 'wrong' ethnicity.
IMMIGRANTS SWELL CLASS SIZES TO HUNDREDS
Then your average Brexiter posts what they've read here as 'facts'.
Most countries had restrictions of various types on foreign non-residents buying property.
Ditto for setting up companies (I mean, making that easier for EU citizens is pretty fundamental to the Single Market concept)
When it comes to healthcare, I suppose if you try getting a hip replacement op in Canada to beat the waiting list in the NHS, and expecting the NHS to pay for it, the response will give you an idea of what it was like across Europe if you had tried that before the directive came into force.
So it will be slightly different then. Hardly the end of the world.
Might need to factor private health insurance into the cost of enjoying a life abroad. Just like I've done in the various Asian countries I've lived in. Or the tens of thousands of Brits with homes in Turkey. Or the hundreds of thousands of non EU expats living in France perfectly happily.
PS Ask some of your Spanish friends how they (and more importantly Spanish healthcare workers)feel about the influx of north Africans taking advantage of their free health care
The Spanish healthcare system is not free to North Africans unless they have residencia and are paying tax. It is free to UK pensioners under a reciprocal arrangement though.
I suggest you do a bit of research from hospitals from Toledo south and see what you find. I have two Spanish Doctor friends and stay with them often.
just out of interest, why did you like Cordoban's post then prove it to be incorrect?
I had assumed it was correct. My natural instinct was that it was. That doesn’t mean that I don’t check out information for myself. I did and quickly found out that things had changed.
Still getting my head around Valiantphil's completely insane post there. I've had absolutely enough of this shit
E111 is your friend.
No it is not. That is for emergency cover when you are on holiday. It will not allow you in future to elect to go to France for treatment, either to jump an NHS queue or because they might be specialist leaders in a condition you may suffer from. It is one of many advantages of EU membership that most people don't even know about. You don't and I don't think @Floyd Montana did either,so I am really curious how he might respond to my post from last night.
Still getting my head around Valiantphil's completely insane post there. I've had absolutely enough of this shit
It’s the get on with it mentality. Things have changed deal with it. A complete lack of empathy or understanding of the situations and consequences.
@ShootersHillGuru Slightly off topic I know, but there was a report in the news this week that 1 in 25 people are homeless in some parts of the UK.
IMO this is our first priority as a nation.
My hope for future generations is that they are not using "beds in sheds' or slums like we had in the 1950's.
There was another report in the press this week that class sizes in some U.K. schools have reached 100.
This is why I feel we have to turn off the tap before we fix the hole in the bath.
Brexit may indeed be like cutting off a limb - but this is often done (in medicine) to save the whole body.
I understand that sentiment entirely. The situation you describe is intolerable and cannot continue.
Where I think you have got things wrong is in your assertion that the problem is created by immigration. Study after study (I’m not going to do the google links) show that immigration is good for our economy. They are as a “group” net contributers. An article posted earlier in this thread about the fishing industry in the north east of England, Grimsby and Scarborough I think stated that post Brexit in the fishing industry there would be a 20% shortfall in labour requiring what the spokesperson for the industry was saying should mean “special status” for the ports where existing free trade and movement of people should be retained to allow them to continue. This shortfall in labour is not unique to fishing. It can be extrapolated to many areas of the economy.
The UK needs immigration. Fact.
It’s been done to death but immigration could be controlled by using existing legislation even for EU migrants. It has been the decision of the governments of this country not to use those rules. Where is the discussion to find out why ? There is the scandal.
The second part of the scandal is that the problems you rightly highlight are problems in infrastructure that multiple governments have shockingly failed to address. It is central government that has created problems in hospitals and classrooms not the people we need coming here to fill the job vacancies we have.
Instead of building more hospitals. Schools, etc etc to meet the demands of a modern economy allowing the UK to thrive. We have decided to create an even bigger problem by cutting off our lifeblood workforce and risk the prosperity of the nation for generations to satisfy something built on a false premise.
Absolutely everything to do with austerity and real term funding cuts, nothing to do with immigration, and that's according to teachers.
OR. could be that they included PE lessons and Choir practice, where an entire year may take part, according to the DofE - who should be ashamed - even if this is the case.
They also managed to 'cure' homelessness during the Olympics, much like Delhi did at the commonwealth games. Brexit wasn't even a twinkle in most brexiters' boxers at the time.
It can be done - even when people have the temerity to come to these shores seeking a better life, you just need the right driver.
The simple fact is our economy is reliant on immigration to function. The rich and powerful campaigning for Brexit know this, so we have to ask why they want us out of the EU if not immigration, and the easy access to a mobile workforce.
My theory is it's all about the money, as always. The problem with EU labour is that whilst it's cheap, it's not cheap enough. There's all these horrible rules like human rights and having to treat everybody equally. Those hurt profits.
My prediction is that if/when we leave the EU then new rules will be introduced along the lines of immigrants aren't subject to minimum wages laws, can't claim benefits and can't use many public services until they've been here a certain amount of time, probably a year or two. You'll then see that big companies (Tory party donors, etc.) will be able to get as many work permits as they want, all under that time threshold of course, giving them access to a super cheap workforce who have little to no rights.
You think eastern Europeans are driving down wages? Wait until Tesco can get Vietnamese shelf stackers for £4 an hour, or Taylor Wimpey can get building site labourers for half the price of UK workers.
The rich and powerful promoting Brexit don't care about NHS waiting lists (they have private healthcare) or class sizes (they use private schools), they care about staying rich and powerful. The majority of things the press claims the EU is to blame for is stuff that any UK government could have rectified if they wanted to. Long waiting lists and large class sizes are due to government cuts, nothing more, nothing less. Does anybody truly believe that as soon as we're out of the EU that the current Tory government will suddenly open the purse strings?
The simple fact is our economy is reliant on immigration to function. The rich and powerful campaigning for Brexit know this, so we have to ask why they want us out of the EU if not immigration, and the easy access to a mobile workforce.
My theory is it's all about the money, as always. The problem with EU labour is that whilst it's cheap, it's not cheap enough. There's all these horrible rules like human rights and having to treat everybody equally. Those hurt profits.
My prediction is that if/when we leave the EU then new rules will be introduced along the lines of immigrants aren't subject to minimum wages laws, can claim benefits and can't use many public services until they've been here a certain amount of time, probably a year or two. You'll then see that big companies (Tory party donors, etc.) will be able to get as many work permits as they want, all under that time threshold of course, giving them access to a super cheap workforce who have little to no rights.
You think eastern Europeans are driving down wages? Wait until Tesco can get Vietnamese shelf stackers for £4 an hour, or Taylor Wimpey can get building site labourers for half the price of UK workers.
The rich and powerful promoting Brexit don't care NHS waiting lists (they have private healthcare) or class sizes (they use private schools), they care about staying rich and powerful. The majority of things the press claims the EU is to blame for is stuff that any UK government could have rectified if they wanted too. Long waiting lists and large class sizes are due to government cuts, nothing more, nothing less. Does anybody truly believe that as soon as we're out of the EU that the current Tory government will suddenly open the purse strings?
Absolutely everything to do with austerity and real term funding cuts, nothing to do with immigration, and that's according to teachers.
OR. could be that they included PE lessons and Choir practice, where an entire year may take part, according to the DofE - who should be ashamed - even if this is the case.
"These figures relate to PE lessons and choir practice where it is not uncommon for classes to be taught together. The schools’ pupil-to-teacher ratios remain well below the national average."
Ah right, so it's not like there are 100 kids in a class, certain lessons are taught with multiple classes together which is where the sensationalist headline comes from.
Absolutely everything to do with austerity and real term funding cuts, nothing to do with immigration, and that's according to teachers.
OR. could be that they included PE lessons and Choir practice, where an entire year may take part, according to the DofE - who should be ashamed - even if this is the case.
"These figures relate to PE lessons and choir practice where it is not uncommon for classes to be taught together. The schools’ pupil-to-teacher ratios remain well below the national average."
Ah right, so it's not like there are 100 kids in a class, certain lessons are taught with multiple classes together which is where the sensationalist headline comes from.
This. Totally disingenuous to suggest that this is either a normal class or thanks to the EU. Figures also don't confirm how many adults were supervising.
Every Wednesday at school there would be 200 of us out for sport. With several teachers and coaches. Nothing to do with Poles or Romanians.
DO THE BREXIT - is that like a dance or something?
Sadly there is a breed of British expat that just do not see themselves as immigrants. I know a few of them out here in Canada. Some of the stuff they come out with about 'immigrants' beggers belief. Of course what those people really mean by immigrants are non-whites, it particular muslims, or anyone their ignorant brain thinks looks like a muslim.
Ummm, white people are ex-pats, don't you know.
Sadly I know people exactly like you've described, a bloke from Kent constantly bangs on about immigrants going over to England, screwing the country up, can't even speak the language.
He's been here almost as long as me, can't speak a word of Chinese
That amazes me because (and correct me if I’m wrong), I can’t imagine people in that part of China would (nor should they), give him the courtesy of speaking English
You'd be amazed how many foreigners here spend no time with Chinese people outside of work, have no interest in the language or the culture.
But yeah, in day to day life the level of English is basically zero. Beyond someone shouting HELLO on the street.
I'm nowhere near fluent but I can get by and I study most days, I love the culture and generally find Chinese people much easier to be around the a lot of the degenerate (normally American) fuckwits you can meet here.
I post this in an attempt to inform the debate, not to establish any particular position. However it is about EU democracy, and within it one can discover that countries with smaller populations can muscle in alongside France, Germany and the UK. My reading is that if anything, France and Germany are very restrained by the organisation as a whole, and when Trump for example says the EU is basically somewhere with Merkel in charge he is simply wrong.
A pretty weak case made in my view. Sets the benchmark of democracy by measurement of process above accountability, transparency not the effectiveness of the citizen's franchise.
It's OK to have unelected Commissioners, secret meetings with no minutes, and it's bad luck if you can't be represented in the decision formulation process because you don't have the languages.
The assertion that first past the post is less democratic than the way most countries elect MEPs is fatuous. Referenda are the only form of voting that actually meets the classic definition of Democracy. The majority view on a motion means it passes, the minority view is irrelevant. Democracy gave them a vote, not a say in changing the motion after it's passed. The minority view is taken into account, if at all, on political imperatives, not democratic imperatives.
I post this in an attempt to inform the debate, not to establish any particular position. However it is about EU democracy, and within it one can discover that countries with smaller populations can muscle in alongside France, Germany and the UK. My reading is that if anything, France and Germany are very restrained by the organisation as a whole, and when Trump for example says the EU is basically somewhere with Merkel in charge he is simply wrong.
A pretty weak case made in my view. Sets the benchmark of democracy by measurement of process above accountability, transparency not the effectiveness of the citizen's franchise.
It's OK to have unelected Commissioners, secret meetings with no minutes, and it's bad luck if you can't be represented in the decision formulation process because you don't have the languages.
The assertion that first past the post is less democratic than the way most countries elect MEPs is fatuous. Referenda are the only form of voting that actually meets the classic definition of Democracy. The majority view on a motion means it passes, the minority view is irrelevant. Democracy gave them a vote, not a say in changing the motion after it's passed. The minority view is taken into account, if at all, on political imperatives, not democratic imperatives.
So democracy only take places very briefly every 5 years and the time in between it is a tyranny of the majority?
So the Irish Government wants a veto over UK Government policy?
Forgive me for being pedantic but there is a difference between 'demand' and 'veto'.
I get the impression that Brexit Bulldog is trying to demand all the good stuff but none of the bad from the EU - and we all know that's going to end with a 'f*ck off'.
The simple fact is our economy is reliant on immigration to function. The rich and powerful campaigning for Brexit know this, so we have to ask why they want us out of the EU if not immigration, and the easy access to a mobile workforce.
My theory is it's all about the money, as always. The problem with EU labour is that whilst it's cheap, it's not cheap enough. There's all these horrible rules like human rights and having to treat everybody equally. Those hurt profits.
My prediction is that if/when we leave the EU then new rules will be introduced along the lines of immigrants aren't subject to minimum wages laws, can't claim benefits and can't use many public services until they've been here a certain amount of time, probably a year or two. You'll then see that big companies (Tory party donors, etc.) will be able to get as many work permits as they want, all under that time threshold of course, giving them access to a super cheap workforce who have little to no rights.
You think eastern Europeans are driving down wages? Wait until Tesco can get Vietnamese shelf stackers for £4 an hour, or Taylor Wimpey can get building site labourers for half the price of UK workers.
The rich and powerful promoting Brexit don't care about NHS waiting lists (they have private healthcare) or class sizes (they use private schools), they care about staying rich and powerful. The majority of things the press claims the EU is to blame for is stuff that any UK government could have rectified if they wanted to. Long waiting lists and large class sizes are due to government cuts, nothing more, nothing less. Does anybody truly believe that as soon as we're out of the EU that the current Tory government will suddenly open the purse strings?
How peculiar then that the CBI, the City and most Tory MPs opposed Brexit. If your analysis is right these 'rich and powerful' people should have been gagging for it.
I post this in an attempt to inform the debate, not to establish any particular position. However it is about EU democracy, and within it one can discover that countries with smaller populations can muscle in alongside France, Germany and the UK. My reading is that if anything, France and Germany are very restrained by the organisation as a whole, and when Trump for example says the EU is basically somewhere with Merkel in charge he is simply wrong.
A pretty weak case made in my view. Sets the benchmark of democracy by measurement of process above accountability, transparency not the effectiveness of the citizen's franchise.
It's OK to have unelected Commissioners, secret meetings with no minutes, and it's bad luck if you can't be represented in the decision formulation process because you don't have the languages.
The assertion that first past the post is less democratic than the way most countries elect MEPs is fatuous. Referenda are the only form of voting that actually meets the classic definition of Democracy. The majority view on a motion means it passes, the minority view is irrelevant. Democracy gave them a vote, not a say in changing the motion after it's passed. The minority view is taken into account, if at all, on political imperatives, not democratic imperatives.
Thanks for this response because we are talking about angles and nuances and a variety of procedures, which of course leads to a variety of opinions.
Even though you describe one aspect of the debate as fatuous, it is still a development from what some people say, which is that the EU is 'undemocratic'.
I have asserted all along that the EU is democratic, but in a different form to domestic democracy, and maybe what motivated people to vote for or against brexit was about expressing a preference, rather than voting for democracy verses no democracy.
In terms of the democracy (and sovereignty) debate there are no absolutes but preferences, and those who blithely repeat that the EU is 'undemocratic' need to be challenged simply because they are mistaken, they are wrong.
I also question the notion that there is a 'classic' definition of democracy, and would be interested in some more evidence that such a 'classic' concept exists. For example lets look at Ancient Greece and what is seen to be the classic wellspring of democracy, in those times women (and other sectors of Athenian society) didn't have a vote, so is a 'classic' definition of democracy one where it is male only?
I bother to extend this aspect of the debate to challenge the repeated assertions that the EU is 'undemocratic', it isn't.
How peculiar then that the CBI, the City and most Tory MPs opposed Brexit. If your analysis is right these 'rich and powerful' people should have been gagging for it.
Not peculiar at all. I didn't prescribe those possible motives to all rich and powerful people, just those pushing for a hard Brexit. It was an attempt to find some logical motivation behind the actions of a small number (relatively speaking) of people and organisations.
As with any course of action, the one I laid out above has it's own pros and cons. The CBI, the city, etc. must see the cons as outweighing the pros, and so they should. They're not employing low wage workers typically, so would see little benefit from low paid foreign labour, and would suffer most from the change in trading relationship with the EU.
As always, it's very dangerous to think everybody in a particular group will think and act in the same way, Not all rich and power support or oppose Brexit, not all of those who voted for Brexit did so on immigration grounds and not all those that voted remain want immigration to remain unchanged. It's a complex situation, which is why a black and white yes/no referendum was a terrible idea.
Comments
I was not a big fan of the Blair government but they did all but eliminate homelessness with only those who refused accommodation being left without some kind of shelter.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4850181/pupils-are-being-taught-in-classes-of-more-than-one-hundred-as-schools-plea-for-extra-funding-amid-budget-cuts/
Reading through that, it doesn't mention immigration, or over-subscription anywhere, the giant class size is purely down to a £2.8 billion cut in the education budget and a lack of Maths and Science teachers.
Think they might be confusing it with a lecture (or maybe even assembly!).
IMMIGRANTS SWELL CLASS SIZES TO HUNDREDS
Then your average Brexiter posts what they've read here as 'facts'.
Where I think you have got things wrong is in your assertion that the problem is created by immigration. Study after study (I’m not going to do the google links) show that immigration is good for our economy. They are as a “group” net contributers. An article posted earlier in this thread about the fishing industry in the north east of England, Grimsby and Scarborough I think stated that post Brexit in the fishing industry there would be a 20% shortfall in labour requiring what the spokesperson for the industry was saying should mean “special status” for the ports where existing free trade and movement of people should be retained to allow them to continue. This shortfall in labour is not unique to fishing. It can be extrapolated to many areas of the economy.
The UK needs immigration. Fact.
It’s been done to death but immigration could be controlled by using existing legislation even for EU migrants. It has been the decision of the governments of this country not to use those rules. Where is the discussion to find out why ? There is the scandal.
The second part of the scandal is that the problems you rightly highlight are problems in infrastructure that multiple governments have shockingly failed to address. It is central government that has created problems in hospitals and classrooms not the people we need coming here to fill the job vacancies we have.
Instead of building more hospitals. Schools, etc etc to meet the demands of a modern economy allowing the UK to thrive. We have decided to create an even bigger problem by cutting off our lifeblood workforce and risk the prosperity of the nation for generations to satisfy something built on a false premise.
https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/class-sizes-over-100-revealed-secondary-schools
Absolutely everything to do with austerity and real term funding cuts, nothing to do with immigration, and that's according to teachers.
OR. could be that they included PE lessons and Choir practice, where an entire year may take part, according to the DofE - who should be ashamed - even if this is the case.
It can be done - even when people have the temerity to come to these shores seeking a better life, you just need the right driver.
My theory is it's all about the money, as always. The problem with EU labour is that whilst it's cheap, it's not cheap enough. There's all these horrible rules like human rights and having to treat everybody equally. Those hurt profits.
My prediction is that if/when we leave the EU then new rules will be introduced along the lines of immigrants aren't subject to minimum wages laws, can't claim benefits and can't use many public services until they've been here a certain amount of time, probably a year or two. You'll then see that big companies (Tory party donors, etc.) will be able to get as many work permits as they want, all under that time threshold of course, giving them access to a super cheap workforce who have little to no rights.
You think eastern Europeans are driving down wages? Wait until Tesco can get Vietnamese shelf stackers for £4 an hour, or Taylor Wimpey can get building site labourers for half the price of UK workers.
The rich and powerful promoting Brexit don't care about NHS waiting lists (they have private healthcare) or class sizes (they use private schools), they care about staying rich and powerful. The majority of things the press claims the EU is to blame for is stuff that any UK government could have rectified if they wanted to. Long waiting lists and large class sizes are due to government cuts, nothing more, nothing less. Does anybody truly believe that as soon as we're out of the EU that the current Tory government will suddenly open the purse strings?
Ah right, so it's not like there are 100 kids in a class, certain lessons are taught with multiple classes together which is where the sensationalist headline comes from.
Every Wednesday at school there would be 200 of us out for sport. With several teachers and coaches. Nothing to do with Poles or Romanians.
But yeah, in day to day life the level of English is basically zero. Beyond someone shouting HELLO on the street.
I'm nowhere near fluent but I can get by and I study most days, I love the culture and generally find Chinese people much easier to be around the a lot of the degenerate (normally American) fuckwits you can meet here.
It's OK to have unelected Commissioners, secret meetings with no minutes, and it's bad luck if you can't be represented in the decision formulation process because you don't have the languages.
The assertion that first past the post is less democratic than the way most countries elect MEPs is fatuous. Referenda are the only form of voting that actually meets the classic definition of Democracy. The majority view on a motion means it passes, the minority view is irrelevant. Democracy gave them a vote, not a say in changing the motion after it's passed. The minority view is taken into account, if at all, on political imperatives, not democratic imperatives.
I get the impression that Brexit Bulldog is trying to demand all the good stuff but none of the bad from the EU - and we all know that's going to end with a 'f*ck off'.
Even though you describe one aspect of the debate as fatuous, it is still a development from what some people say, which is that the EU is 'undemocratic'.
I have asserted all along that the EU is democratic, but in a different form to domestic democracy, and maybe what motivated people to vote for or against brexit was about expressing a preference, rather than voting for democracy verses no democracy.
In terms of the democracy (and sovereignty) debate there are no absolutes but preferences, and those who blithely repeat that the EU is 'undemocratic' need to be challenged simply because they are mistaken, they are wrong.
I also question the notion that there is a 'classic' definition of democracy, and would be interested in some more evidence that such a 'classic' concept exists. For example lets look at Ancient Greece and what is seen to be the classic wellspring of democracy, in those times women (and other sectors of Athenian society) didn't have a vote, so is a 'classic' definition of democracy one where it is male only?
I bother to extend this aspect of the debate to challenge the repeated assertions that the EU is 'undemocratic', it isn't.
As with any course of action, the one I laid out above has it's own pros and cons. The CBI, the city, etc. must see the cons as outweighing the pros, and so they should. They're not employing low wage workers typically, so would see little benefit from low paid foreign labour, and would suffer most from the change in trading relationship with the EU.
As always, it's very dangerous to think everybody in a particular group will think and act in the same way, Not all rich and power support or oppose Brexit, not all of those who voted for Brexit did so on immigration grounds and not all those that voted remain want immigration to remain unchanged. It's a complex situation, which is why a black and white yes/no referendum was a terrible idea.
How much progress has been made?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41936931
Come on all you brexiter, help your negotiators out here, suggest a workable solution.