I am away at the moment (not in EU !) so access to the web is patchy, hence replies are slow.
@Cordoban Addick I don't believe that the current pressure on class sizes/availability of school places is down to underfunding and not the increase in U.K. population.
@randy andy When the Sun cried "stop Brexit" last week it was touted on here as a credible source. It either IS or it ISN'T.
@Leuth Don't give up on the debate. It's the only way we are going to go forward - Brexit or no Brexit.
@ShootersHillGuru Yes I agree that UK needs immigration to fill the skills gaps. I am all in favour of this. I had NHS specialist care recently and the doctors concerned were from India and ROI. Great stuff.
As for infrastructure, we do a census every 10 years to give some indication of the service needs in the future - how can this be valid with an unspecified number of arrivals free to come at any time ?
I was not aware that existing UK legislation could inhibit the free movement of EU citizens to the UK and I am interested to know more.
Well I have posted the video so many times, but maybe instead the complete transcript will help you better, of a politician explaining it on the Marr Show, way back in 2014. A foreign politician. The then Foreign Minister of Poland speaking the Queen's English and in the clearest possible terms .
Read it and weep at the foolishness of the entire Brexit exercise.
@PragueAddick I couldn't find any reference in those 6 pages to limiting the free movement of EU citizens to the UK. Yes there is talk of social benefit variations, but I could not find the specific point about limiting free movement (am trying to view on tiny phone with poor network coverage).
The point was made earlier above that we already have the power to limit migration from the EU and I am interested to find out more about how this can be true.
The argument by anti-immigrant types was that too many come to the U.K. for the benefits and not to work, because in the UK they can claim benefits immediately. That is not the case in other EU countries. Sikorski points out that we could change this on our own. had we done so that would actually have helped reduce the number of non EU immigrants too.
Hmmm- but what percentage of the hundreds of thousands each year are just coming to claim benefits ?
Most on here say it's not a high percentage - hence the common point that immigration is a net contributor to the UK economy.
We cannot control immigration while we are part of the free movement area. So, hurry up with Brexit please before they pave paradise and put up a parking lot.
Prague I wish I could like your Gove rant 1000 times. This really isn't funny at all. To bump attention back to the Iranians! Mrs Plum worked at a significant level at the Foreign and Commonwealth office so I have some knowledge. Therein is supposed to be diplomats. You may have to interact with those you disapprove of, but you're supposed to understand the others points of view, and have command of your brief. Boris Johnson should get that poor woman out and home and should then resign, and take Gove with him.
Whatever tack Michael Gove is on you can be 100% certain that it’s self serving and toady. I wouldn’t trust this man if my life depended on it. He epitomises for me everything wrong in politics and he has stiff competition.
I thought Dyson came over as the head of a multinational firm, who thinks his company is better place in a country that aint in the EU and then gave his reasons. Nothing to do with patriotism, or the quality of his vacuum cleaners. Imo
I thought Dyson came over as the head of a multinational firm, who thinks his company is better place in a country that aint in the EU and then gave his reasons. Nothing to do with patriotism, or the quality of his vacuum cleaners. Imo
I make you right. You can’t dismiss the thoughts of someone like Dyson out of hand. I do think though that you are right in that he sees “his” company doing better. His products and brand are already iconic and there will always be success stories that buck a general trend.
The general consensus of business is overwhelmingly negative regarding Brexit. Is Dyson the exception that proves the rule.
I thought Dyson came over as the head of a multinational firm, who thinks his company is better place in a country that aint in the EU and then gave his reasons. Nothing to do with patriotism, or the quality of his vacuum cleaners. Imo
I make you right. You can’t dismiss the thoughts of someone like Dyson out of hand. I do think though that you are right in that he sees “his” company doing better. His products and brand are already iconic and there will always be success stories that buck a general trend.
The general consensus of business is overwhelmingly negative regarding Brexit. Is Dyson the exception that proves the rule.
I thought Dyson came over as the head of a multinational firm, who thinks his company is better place in a country that aint in the EU and then gave his reasons. Nothing to do with patriotism, or the quality of his vacuum cleaners. Imo
I make you right. You can’t dismiss the thoughts of someone like Dyson out of hand. I do think though that you are right in that he sees “his” company doing better. His products and brand are already iconic and there will always be success stories that buck a general trend.
The general consensus of business is overwhelmingly negative regarding Brexit. Is Dyson the exception that proves the rule.
I am away at the moment (not in EU !) so access to the web is patchy, hence replies are slow.
@Cordoban Addick I don't believe that the current pressure on class sizes/availability of school places is down to underfunding and not the increase in U.K. population.
@randy andy When the Sun cried "stop Brexit" last week it was touted on here as a credible source. It either IS or it ISN'T.
@Leuth Don't give up on the debate. It's the only way we are going to go forward - Brexit or no Brexit.
@ShootersHillGuru Yes I agree that UK needs immigration to fill the skills gaps. I am all in favour of this. I had NHS specialist care recently and the doctors concerned were from India and ROI. Great stuff.
As for infrastructure, we do a census every 10 years to give some indication of the service needs in the future - how can this be valid with an unspecified number of arrivals free to come at any time ?
I was not aware that existing UK legislation could inhibit the free movement of EU citizens to the UK and I am interested to know more.
Well I have posted the video so many times, but maybe instead the complete transcript will help you better, of a politician explaining it on the Marr Show, way back in 2014. A foreign politician. The then Foreign Minister of Poland speaking the Queen's English and in the clearest possible terms .
Read it and weep at the foolishness of the entire Brexit exercise.
@PragueAddick I couldn't find any reference in those 6 pages to limiting the free movement of EU citizens to the UK. Yes there is talk of social benefit variations, but I could not find the specific point about limiting free movement (am trying to view on tiny phone with poor network coverage).
The point was made earlier above that we already have the power to limit migration from the EU and I am interested to find out more about how this can be true.
The argument by anti-immigrant types was that too many come to the U.K. for the benefits and not to work, because in the UK they can claim benefits immediately. That is not the case in other EU countries. Sikorski points out that we could change this on our own. had we done so that would actually have helped reduce the number of non EU immigrants too.
Hmmm- but what percentage of the hundreds of thousands each year are just coming to claim benefits ?
Most on here say it's not a high percentage - hence the common point that immigration is a net contributor to the UK economy.
We cannot control immigration while we are part of the free movement area. So, hurry up with Brexit please before they pave paradise and put up a parking lot.
What exactly are you trying to say here, because you seem to have written four completely unrelated sentences there Phil?
@Algarveaddick There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration. I asked for more info. Prague posted the Polish PM transcript. Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
@Algarveaddick There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration. I asked for more info. Prague posted the Polish PM transcript. Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
My response is above. Happy to clarify.
European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC
Which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to Support themselves.
The point is we require a huge number of immigrants to keep our economy running, whether they be from within the EU or outside.
If we're particularly concerned with just low-skill/low-wage and benefit claiming immigrants then we can use the taxation and benefits systems to stop them coming, and both of those are fully within our control.
If you voted brexit for an indiscriminate reduction on immigration then you're going to be disappointed no matter whether we're in or out, and if you voted brexit to reduce the number of "undesirable" immigrants then we already have ample tools to reduce those numbers.
The fact we don't use these tools can only be changed by removing the current government not by removing the UK from the EU.
The point is we require a huge number of immigrants to keep our economy running, whether they be from within the EU or outside.
If we're particularly concerned with just low-skill/low-wage and benefit claiming immigrants then we can use the taxation and benefits systems to stop them coming, and both of those are fully within our control.
If you voted brexit for an indiscriminate reduction on immigration then you're going to be disappointed no matter whether we're in or out, and if you voted brexit to reduce the number of "undesirable" immigrants then we already have ample tools to reduce those numbers.
The fact we don't use these tools can only be changed by removing the current government not by removing the UK from the EU.
This.
We have an unemployment rate of @4.5% which as a figure demands that we continue to import workers. There are hardly any sectors that won’t suffer a workforce shortage if control of our borders means what the likes of Farage want to see.
The argument is that we allow immigration for the jobs we need is spurious because we need workers from doctors to fruit pickers.
The environment that makes these people want to come and work has already been significantly damaged. Brexit once complete will make it a very unattractive prospect.
@Algarveaddick There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration. I asked for more info. Prague posted the Polish PM transcript. Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
My response is above. Happy to clarify.
European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC
Which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to Support themselves.
I didn't realise this. So we've already got in law the immigrants can't claim the majority of benefits for the first 3 months, and we have an EU directive saying we can repatriate after 3 months. Therefore there is zero reason to have any immigrants claiming the benefits the Mail like to shout about, other than a lack of political will to use the tools readily available.
Oops, there goes another reason to leave then. And another demonstration of the incompetence of our own elected officials.
This is the biggest fear I have over brexit. At the moment if/when my own government tries to screw me over I have a higher court I can appeal to, a court my government has less direct political influence over. Once we're out that safety net is gone and time after time this government proves it can't be trusted. Especially as I work in IT and current and past home secretaries both fail to understand technology and have tried to introduce frankly scary, over-reaching powers to invade our privacy.
@Algarveaddick There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration. I asked for more info. Prague posted the Polish PM transcript. Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
My response is above. Happy to clarify.
European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC
Which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to Support themselves.
I didn't realise this. So we've already got in law the immigrants can't claim the majority of benefits for the first 3 months, and we have an EU directive saying we can repatriate after 3 months. Therefore there is zero reason to have any immigrants claiming the benefits the Mail like to shout about, other than a lack of political will to use the tools readily available.
Oops, there goes another reason to leave then. And another demonstration of the incompetence of our own elected officials.
This is the biggest fear I have over brexit. At the moment if/when my own government tries to screw me over I have a higher court I can appeal to, a court my government has less direct political influence over. Once we're out that safety net is gone and time after time this government proves it can't be trusted. Especially as I work in IT and current and past home secretaries both fail to understand technology and have tried to introduce frankly scary, over-reaching powers to invade our privacy.
For the reasons you state I cannot see why anyone has any more trust in a UK MP to do right by them than an EU MEP? Speaking the same language does not make them care one jot or iota more for the individual in the street, in fact there is an argument to say that as a result of the class system, there is an element of the leadership of this country that genuinely believe themselves to be better than others by accident of birth. Most other Europeans do not have that.
@Algarveaddick There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration. I asked for more info. Prague posted the Polish PM transcript. Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
My response is above. Happy to clarify.
Thank you Phil - I see that SHG has explained the situation.
Yes - but the focus seems to be on benefit claimants- which is not a major issue for me.
My issue is that untold millions have the right to come and settle on an island. These millions will be further swelled by folk given EU citizenship (eventually) by Germany and to a lesser extent Spain in the coming years.
We have no control over that number, despite any of the postings above. The population of U.K. by mid 2020"s is already predicted at 70 million.
What is everyone's top number ? Maybe you don't have a top number, but I do - and we are well beyond it.
Yes, we need an immigrant workforce. Yes, there has always been immigration into U.K. But, even at 75000+ for Charlton v Villa the crowd inside the Valley knew it was too packed. The same is true of the UK today. So, act now to save the playing field where (e.g.)Parker and Leaburn learnt their skills before it becomes at 12 storey block of flats.
But its the case that eu migration is to fill job vacancies that exist. There is no eu migration as such that we can say is opportunistic in terms of claiming benefits. The eu workers arrive, get jobs pay tax. What’s not to like ? If they didn’t come then our economy would crash. There are no untold millions arriving here taking our jobs and sponging from our welfare system.
If Brexit means we lose even 50% of our immigrant workforce then we are screwed.
I really don’t think enough people realise just how dependent our economy is on this workforce.
Gove's disgraceful remark about Nazanin Ratcliffe have now quite rightly been picked up by the media. He, as well as Johnson should resign forthwith. They have blood on their grubby little hands.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
Yes - but the focus seems to be on benefit claimants- which is not a major issue for me.
My issue is that untold millions have the right to come and settle on an island. These millions will be further swelled by folk given EU citizenship (eventually) by Germany and to a lesser extent Spain in the coming years.
We have no control over that number, despite any of the postings above. The population of U.K. by mid 2020"s is already predicted at 70 million.
What is everyone's top number ? Maybe you don't have a top number, but I do - and we are well beyond it.
Yes, we need an immigrant workforce. Yes, there has always been immigration into U.K. But, even at 75000+ for Charlton v Villa the crowd inside the Valley knew it was too packed. The same is true of the UK today. So, act now to save the playing field where (e.g.)Parker and Leaburn learnt their skills before it becomes at 12 storey block of flats.
This mathematical position is a good one in my view.
I can see why you have related it to brexit.
My thoughts about it are that the world population is too high and it is a problem for all of us.
In terms of actual space in the UK for people to be it is a little less clear cut. The population of London for example is only just approaching the numbers in the late 30's (the time when we played Villa in that match) when the UK was not part of the EU, and Commonwealth immigration was negligible. Although the UK population as a whole was lower. The space people occupy has been a kind of cultural manspreading of accommodation (there are 600,000 empty properties in the UK at the moment) but I won't argue that more spacious living conditions are not a good thing.
Mind you in SE London, and near to me central Lewisham is a prime example, buildings are happening on spaces that were virtually redundant before. There is a knock on effect regarding public services, but there is also a relationship between population and the tax take to pay for those services.
Maybe it is more the speed of change that is an issue than the bald numbers.
To me the population argument is one that says it all seems out of control, but at least brexit will exercise some control in an area the UK can be in charge of.
At the moment the UK is 50'th in the list of most densely populated countries. There is an up to date list below. If leaving the EU is only to deal with population density, then there is a different debate to be had in my view.
I agree it is a problem, but to have brexit justified by this one issue feels a bit baby with the bathwaterish, as personally I see the benefits of remaining, including working closely with our neighbours regarding population control.
only 2% of the UK is built on, the problem is it's very specific areas that are 'packed' - we need to listen to our best manager of the past 4.5 years and 'spread out', he was ahead of his time.
Yes - but the focus seems to be on benefit claimants- which is not a major issue for me.
My issue is that untold millions have the right to come and settle on an island. These millions will be further swelled by folk given EU citizenship (eventually) by Germany and to a lesser extent Spain in the coming years.
We have no control over that number, despite any of the postings above. The population of U.K. by mid 2020"s is already predicted at 70 million.
What is everyone's top number ? Maybe you don't have a top number, but I do - and we are well beyond it.
Yes, we need an immigrant workforce. Yes, there has always been immigration into U.K. But, even at 75000+ for Charlton v Villa the crowd inside the Valley knew it was too packed. The same is true of the UK today. So, act now to save the playing field where (e.g.)Parker and Leaburn learnt their skills before it becomes at 12 storey block of flats.
If there are no jobs and no benefit, why would they come?
only 2% of the UK is built on, the problem is it's very specific areas that are 'packed' - we need to listen to our best manager of the past 4.5 years and 'spread out', he was ahead of his time.
There's nothing natural or healthy about families living on top of each other. Air quality, refuse rates and cost of living all seem to escalate the more people you lump on top of each other. Building upwards works fine for offices and commercials premises but is having severe consequences for the health, wealth and happiness of those who live in such conditions.
only 2% of the UK is built on, the problem is it's very specific areas that are 'packed' - we need to listen to our best manager of the past 4.5 years and 'spread out', he was ahead of his time.
There's nothing natural or healthy about families living on top of each other. Air quality, refuse rates and cost of living all seem to escalate the more people you lump on top of each other. Building upwards works fine for offices and commercials premises but is having severe consequences for the health, wealth and happiness of those who live in such conditions.
I think I read somewhere that the 'slum' clearances of streets of two up two downers in places like Camberwell, to be replaced by high rise blocks did not improve the person per square foot thing. The housing conditions were poor, with back alleys, back yards, outside bogs and tin baths. However there was usually a sense of community and belonging. I sometimes wonder if creative architecture based on the old low rise model but with better building conditions would work. During the sixties and seventies when these tower blocks were slinging up everywhere, it made a lot of profit for big builders, and kick backs for some corrupt councillors, but didn't especially help the people per square foot footprint of the areas. Interestingly we have people now paying huge sums to choose to live in the 'undesirable' stacked way you describe. Look at the Ferrier, or the new stuff in Woolwich and Lewisham and all along the river in Surrey Docks. Maybe even high rise can work if done properly.
You started it last week by asking a ludicrous question about the irish border to my joke response about being on page 2. You may love love the irish.... I have their blood in me and apart from these pages never tell anyone.
I don’t get it.
You are obviously not a stupid man. You are entitled to call yourself doctor. That takes intelligence.
What I don’t understand is why you don’t seem to understand that your overtly and blatant anti Irish posts are insulting to quite a few posters on this forum. You could make an argument in saying your posts are bordering on racism. You don’t have to be talking about people with brown faces for a comment to be racist.
Why would someone go out of their way to insult fellow lifers based on their ethnicity ?
You are obviously totally oblivious to the fact that it’s insulting or you want to insult people.
In the last week i have been called a little englander rascist and now an ignorant brexit twat. Look back over the last few pages and quote me where i have done simular.
Why do people ask me about the border when i hate my irish ancestry. As i said last week, if you don't like the answer, don't ask me the question.
What amazes me is that the remainers here call brexiters disgusting things, yet when a comment is made back, the rat pack don't like it.
Why arnt you asking those on your side why they are doing it. Bit two faced isn't it.
But why insult the Irish ?
Why not... They hate us so cant i hate them... Scots hate us welsh do... But its a crime to reciprocate.... And btw i have every reason to..... Tell me the last time an english fan donned the opposite shirt in a sports match.....
A bloke with his Welsh friends in the pub I was in this afternoon had an Australia top on.
Gove's disgraceful remark about Nazanin Ratcliffe have now quite rightly been picked up by the media. He, as well as Johnson should resign forthwith. They have blood on their grubby little hands.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
Blood on their hands? Are we over reacting just a tad? They are undoubtedly a couple of twats, but lets not get carried away.
PS Perhaps they could keep Tony too - a man with rivers of real blood on his hands.
Gove's disgraceful remark about Nazanin Ratcliffe have now quite rightly been picked up by the media. He, as well as Johnson should resign forthwith. They have blood on their grubby little hands.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
Blood on their hands? Are we over reacting just a tad? They are undoubtedly a couple of twats, but lets not get carried away.
PS Perhaps they could keep Tony too - a man with rivers of real blood on his hands.
In your opinion. How much more tax payer's money over how many more years do you think should be wasted trying to prove this fallacy?
Yes - but the focus seems to be on benefit claimants- which is not a major issue for me.
My issue is that untold millions have the right to come and settle on an island. These millions will be further swelled by folk given EU citizenship (eventually) by Germany and to a lesser extent Spain in the coming years.
We have no control over that number, despite any of the postings above. The population of U.K. by mid 2020"s is already predicted at 70 million.
What is everyone's top number ? Maybe you don't have a top number, but I do - and we are well beyond it.
Yes, we need an immigrant workforce. Yes, there has always been immigration into U.K. But, even at 75000+ for Charlton v Villa the crowd inside the Valley knew it was too packed. The same is true of the UK today. So, act now to save the playing field where (e.g.)Parker and Leaburn learnt their skills before it becomes at 12 storey block of flats.
If there are no jobs and no benefit, why would they come?
Who knows/cares ? Dave promised net immigration in the tens of thousands and ended up looking foolish when he failed to deliver on the promise.
We have a few on here who seem to think that anyone concerned about the impact of Brexit on the (fragile) peace in NI are only worthy of taking the piss. I think this serves as a reminder to us all that not everyone is happy with the status quo and will be looking to maximise on any division it results in.
Gove's disgraceful remark about Nazanin Ratcliffe have now quite rightly been picked up by the media. He, as well as Johnson should resign forthwith. They have blood on their grubby little hands.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
Blood on their hands? Are we over reacting just a tad? They are undoubtedly a couple of twats, but lets not get carried away.
PS Perhaps they could keep Tony too - a man with rivers of real blood on his hands.
No, absolutely not. You obviously have not read much about the conditions in which she is being kept. Even if she is released soon - which that couple of twats have made a lot less likely - the mental scars will be with her for life. They have put her in one of the toughest prisons, too. This is an ordinary British citizen, a mother separated from her 3 year old child, (who is also being held), a human being. Not a pawn in some political game of a couple of twats.
Gove's disgraceful remark about Nazanin Ratcliffe have now quite rightly been picked up by the media. He, as well as Johnson should resign forthwith. They have blood on their grubby little hands.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
Blood on their hands? Are we over reacting just a tad? They are undoubtedly a couple of twats, but lets not get carried away.
PS Perhaps they could keep Tony too - a man with rivers of real blood on his hands.
No, absolutely not. You obviously have not read much about the conditions in which she is being kept. Even if she is released soon - which that couple of twats have made a lot less likely - the mental scars will be with her for life. They have put her in one of the toughest prisons, too. This is an ordinary British citizen, a mother separated from her 3 year old child, (who is also being held), a human being. Not a pawn in some political game of a couple of twats.
Johnson and Gove don’t have a collective diplomatic brain cell between them. Both remarks had been given zero thought. I even doubt in this particular circumstance that there was even an ulterior motive. Just a pair of posh twats talking on a subject that neither could give a toss about until they get deserved flak.
I actually despise both of them and the sooner they are consigned to the political dustbin of history the better.
Comments
Most on here say it's not a high percentage - hence the common point that immigration is a net contributor to the UK economy.
We cannot control immigration while we are part of the free movement area.
So, hurry up with Brexit please before they pave paradise and put up a parking lot.
This really isn't funny at all. To bump attention back to the Iranians!
Mrs Plum worked at a significant level at the Foreign and Commonwealth office so I have some knowledge.
Therein is supposed to be diplomats. You may have to interact with those you disapprove of, but you're supposed to understand the others points of view, and have command of your brief.
Boris Johnson should get that poor woman out and home and should then resign, and take Gove with him.
The general consensus of business is overwhelmingly negative regarding Brexit. Is Dyson the exception that proves the rule.
There was a previous post that said we already have UK legislation that can control immigration.
I asked for more info.
Prague posted the Polish PM transcript.
Polish PM only talks about imposing benefit caps/changes on migrants - nothing about controlling the huge number of people that have the automatic right to come and live in the U.K. whenever they want - benefits or not.
My response is above.
Happy to clarify.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF
Which allows EU member states to repatriate EU nationals after three months if they have not found a job or do not have the means to Support themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/31/britain-take-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit
If we're particularly concerned with just low-skill/low-wage and benefit claiming immigrants then we can use the taxation and benefits systems to stop them coming, and both of those are fully within our control.
If you voted brexit for an indiscriminate reduction on immigration then you're going to be disappointed no matter whether we're in or out, and if you voted brexit to reduce the number of "undesirable" immigrants then we already have ample tools to reduce those numbers.
The fact we don't use these tools can only be changed by removing the current government not by removing the UK from the EU.
We have an unemployment rate of @4.5% which as a figure demands that we continue to import workers. There are hardly any sectors that won’t suffer a workforce shortage if control of our borders means what the likes of Farage want to see.
The argument is that we allow immigration for the jobs we need is spurious because we need workers from doctors to fruit pickers.
The environment that makes these people want to come and work has already been significantly damaged. Brexit once complete will make it a very unattractive prospect.
Oops, there goes another reason to leave then. And another demonstration of the incompetence of our own elected officials.
This is the biggest fear I have over brexit. At the moment if/when my own government tries to screw me over I have a higher court I can appeal to, a court my government has less direct political influence over. Once we're out that safety net is gone and time after time this government proves it can't be trusted. Especially as I work in IT and current and past home secretaries both fail to understand technology and have tried to introduce frankly scary, over-reaching powers to invade our privacy.
For the reasons you state I cannot see why anyone has any more trust in a UK MP to do right by them than an EU MEP?
Speaking the same language does not make them care one jot or iota more for the individual in the street, in fact there is an argument to say that as a result of the class system, there is an element of the leadership of this country that genuinely believe themselves to be better than others by accident of birth. Most other Europeans do not have that.
My issue is that untold millions have the right to come and settle on an island. These millions will be further swelled by folk given EU citizenship (eventually) by Germany and to a lesser extent Spain in the coming years.
We have no control over that number, despite any of the postings above.
The population of U.K. by mid 2020"s is already predicted at 70 million.
What is everyone's top number ?
Maybe you don't have a top number, but I do - and we are well beyond it.
Yes, we need an immigrant workforce.
Yes, there has always been immigration into U.K.
But, even at 75000+ for Charlton v Villa the crowd inside the Valley knew it was too packed. The same is true of the UK today.
So, act now to save the playing field where (e.g.)Parker and Leaburn learnt their skills before it becomes at 12 storey block of flats.
If Brexit means we lose even 50% of our immigrant workforce then we are screwed.
I really don’t think enough people realise just how dependent our economy is on this workforce.
After the murderer of the Czech citizen Zdenek Makar in Poplar was shamefully acquitted by a UK court, the Czech Foreign Minister went after the UK in a big way. First he summoned the British Ambassador, and when that predictably yielded sod all he sent a very strong note to the UK government, and finally publicly called on the CPS to reconsider the verdict. In doing this, he risked, as FO of a little country , making it unpopular with a Big Country; often seen as a no-no, especially by our own FCO for example when dealing with the USA China or Russia. He gained no discernible political advantage for doing so. He did it because he thought that was his job as Foreign Minister. My respect for him magnifies my contempt for Johnson, and especially now for Gove who is shamelessly using this poor woman as a pawn in his grand plan for power, which is all about Brexit.
We should put Gove and Johnson on the plane to Tehran and tell the Iranians that if they free Ratcliffe, they can keep both the tossers.
BTW you can sign the petition to free Nazanin Ratcliffe here. You'll be in the good company of more than a million people.
I can see why you have related it to brexit.
My thoughts about it are that the world population is too high and it is a problem for all of us.
In terms of actual space in the UK for people to be it is a little less clear cut. The population of London for example is only just approaching the numbers in the late 30's (the time when we played Villa in that match) when the UK was not part of the EU, and Commonwealth immigration was negligible. Although the UK population as a whole was lower. The space people occupy has been a kind of cultural manspreading of accommodation (there are 600,000 empty properties in the UK at the moment) but I won't argue that more spacious living conditions are not a good thing.
Mind you in SE London, and near to me central Lewisham is a prime example, buildings are happening on spaces that were virtually redundant before. There is a knock on effect regarding public services, but there is also a relationship between population and the tax take to pay for those services.
Maybe it is more the speed of change that is an issue than the bald numbers.
To me the population argument is one that says it all seems out of control, but at least brexit will exercise some control in an area the UK can be in charge of.
At the moment the UK is 50'th in the list of most densely populated countries. There is an up to date list below. If leaving the EU is only to deal with population density, then there is a different debate to be had in my view.
I agree it is a problem, but to have brexit justified by this one issue feels a bit baby with the bathwaterish, as personally I see the benefits of remaining, including working closely with our neighbours regarding population control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density#Main_table
I sometimes wonder if creative architecture based on the old low rise model but with better building conditions would work.
During the sixties and seventies when these tower blocks were slinging up everywhere, it made a lot of profit for big builders, and kick backs for some corrupt councillors, but didn't especially help the people per square foot footprint of the areas.
Interestingly we have people now paying huge sums to choose to live in the 'undesirable' stacked way you describe. Look at the Ferrier, or the new stuff in Woolwich and Lewisham and all along the river in Surrey Docks. Maybe even high rise can work if done properly.
They are undoubtedly a couple of twats, but lets not get carried away.
PS Perhaps they could keep Tony too - a man with rivers of real blood on his hands.
Dave promised net immigration in the tens of thousands and ended up looking foolish when he failed to deliver on the promise.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41960294
We have a few on here who seem to think that anyone concerned about the impact of Brexit on the (fragile) peace in NI are only worthy of taking the piss. I think this serves as a reminder to us all that not everyone is happy with the status quo and will be looking to maximise on any division it results in.
I actually despise both of them and the sooner they are consigned to the political dustbin of history the better.