Have read in some places that there might be violence in the streets if a second referendum is called - surely not? Wondered what the feeling would be like in the UK if another vote is announced.
There could equally be violence on the streets if there isn't a second vote. The country is in a divided mess.
I quiet like the weird Leave argument about violence because of another vote, but they think people will just go on regardless with food shortages and no medicines.
Have read in some places that there might be violence in the streets if a second referendum is called - surely not? Wondered what the feeling would be like in the UK if another vote is announced.
The Unite general secretary, Len McCluskey, has privately told Labour MPs the party should have severe reservations about backing a fresh Brexit referendum, saying voters could see it as a betrayal.
The deep scepticism from one of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest and most powerful supporters is likely to unnerve MPs and campaigners hoping the party is warming to the idea of a fresh Brexit vote.
So both parties useless and in a mess - Lib Dems no better. What a complete shower!
Thanks for the link - interesting reading of different perspectives and quotes. McCluskey can hold his position for as long as he likes but an emergency conference of delegates from constituencies and trades unions will over whelmingly back a second vote. This was clear from the September composite exercise where some tried to omit the 2nd vote option from the motion. 300 motions were composited and that motion was passed unanimously.
Th eWA bill will fail - then Labour will try a no confidence motion and the Tories will win for the DUP are not giving up their influence - nobody knows the arithmetic for a People's Vote but what we do know is that there's no appetite for No Deal. And that can only be stopped with a deal or aborting Brexit.
As for McClusky having concerns for Labour voters views on immigration? That's known as appeasement and part of why we have arrived at this point. Immigrants are simply not responsible for wage stagnation and globalisation nor austerity and one would hope that people like McClusky would be responsible enough to direct voters to the real causes such as the Blue Party in Westminster rather than the EU.
But I think my Remain vote was always with a condition that we should strive to make the institution better and more democratic. Those that voted Leave for similar reasons ...
On this we agree. The point is that many think we can change it from within, many believe that it is not feasible because they are too intransigent.
Yet we had many variations/concessions already to our membership - no Euro, no Schingen (spelling?,) And the rebate plus we had a veto as well as say in decision making.
For all the talk of EU intransigence we had got a flexible deal better than May's deal or the no trade deals options.
Agreed, but these are exemptions that we obtained.
The point that @MuttleyCAFC and myself are making is in respect of actual change within the EU as a whole.
So, it's not enough to get everything we want? Everyone else has to have everything we want them to have, too?
And, if not, we leave and lose everything?
Not what I am saying at all but can’t be bothered to repeat the points I have made so many times in the past.
If you think the EU is as it should be, that’s fine. I don’t.
I don't think anyone has ever suggested that. But I can't be bothered to repeat not suggesting it again.
If you think not being in the EU is better for the UK politically, financially and in terms of prestige and influence, that's weird. I don't.
Obviously you have never bothered reading my comments on leaving/remaining.
Fair enough, they weren't that interesting.
I disagree with your first sentence and agree with the second.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
I'd rather have them in power for the the next four months, so that the opposition remain more or less untainted by this whole fiasco.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
I'd rather have them in power for the the next four months, so that the opposition remain more or less untainted by this whole fiasco.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
That's an extremely selfish comment. Lets ruin the Tories at the expense of those already struggling under their leadership, lets just leave the country in this horrible mess for another 4 months so that we can make the Tories look worse is how that reads . It's also awful for any kind of democracy. I can't stand the Tories, but at the same time I don't enjoy basking in their failure because it means the country as a whole is worse off. Corbyn can't do worse than May.
Have read in some places that there might be violence in the streets if a second referendum is called - surely not? Wondered what the feeling would be like in the UK if another vote is announced.
Doubt it, we keep getting told that all the leave voters are dead now so unless the second referendum is on Halloween we should be fine.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
I'd rather have them in power for the the next four months, so that the opposition remain more or less untainted by this whole fiasco.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
That's an extremely selfish comment. Lets ruin the Tories at the expense of those already struggling under their leadership, lets just leave the country in this horrible mess for another 4 months so that we can make the Tories look worse is how that reads . It's also awful for any kind of democracy. I can't stand the Tories, but at the same time I don't enjoy basking in their failure because it means the country as a whole is worse off. Corbyn can't do worse than May.
Reckon he'd give it a bloody good go.
Corbyn needs to grow a pair and stand up for a genuine alternative to the Tories instead of sitting in the shadows playing with his plums. If he is incapable of doing that,, and I strongly believe he is, then he should clear off and let someone with some serious credibility have a go.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
I'd rather have them in power for the the next four months, so that the opposition remain more or less untainted by this whole fiasco.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
That's an extremely selfish comment. Lets ruin the Tories at the expense of those already struggling under their leadership, lets just leave the country in this horrible mess for another 4 months so that we can make the Tories look worse is how that reads . It's also awful for any kind of democracy. I can't stand the Tories, but at the same time I don't enjoy basking in their failure because it means the country as a whole is worse off. Corbyn can't do worse than May.
Nothing at all to do with selfishness, everything to do with pragmatism. This is their mess. I don't want any other party getting tarnished with it thereby giving them a ticket to another ten years of strong and stable mayhem.
I think you might be confusing me for a Labour supporter. I am not.
Let's face it, Brexit is the ultimate poisoned chalice. Whatever happens next March, whoever is in power on the 29th is going to get the blame for evermore. I've no desire to defend Corbyn, but if I was him there's no way I'd want to take over this Tory mess. As leader of the opposition, he's been spectacularly ineffective. We still have to remember whose mess this is though. It is Cameron's mess, May's mess, Davis's mess, Raab's mess, Barclay's mess, Johnson's mess, it is Rees-Mess's mess. Keep the Tories in 'power', don't let them off the hook.
Keep them in power? This isn't a game. People are dying
I'd rather have them in power for the the next four months, so that the opposition remain more or less untainted by this whole fiasco.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
That's an extremely selfish comment. Lets ruin the Tories at the expense of those already struggling under their leadership, lets just leave the country in this horrible mess for another 4 months so that we can make the Tories look worse is how that reads . It's also awful for any kind of democracy. I can't stand the Tories, but at the same time I don't enjoy basking in their failure because it means the country as a whole is worse off. Corbyn can't do worse than May.
Nothing at all to do with selfishness, everything to do with pragmatism. This is their mess. I don't want any other party getting tarnished with it thereby giving them a ticket to another ten years of strong and stable mayhem.
I think you might be confusing me for a Labour supporter. I am not.
But by that thinking, leaving the Tories in power will only have the same effect? Except we then have to deal with Corbyn instead.
Latest polling shows a record lead for those who think the 2016 vote was the wrong decision. This poll gives a 12% lead after excluding Don't knows. That's up from 4-6% in the summer. When one looks at the underlying data for yougov, one can see that the English regions have shifted from a 58:42 Leave position to a 46:40 wrong decision with 14% don't know. That's one helluva swing.
Looking at the WA that is stuck with an approval still in the 20s up a sliverr to 26%. Most notably when overlaying Party loyalties, 50% of Tory voters support the WA with the rest either against of don't know whereas 75-80% of Labour voters are against the WA.
This is a material shift since the WA was released and if the development continues after the WA is defeated and after Christmas then pressure on May will reach extraordinary levels. The poll contains all kinds of wonderful information including the fact that 34% of Tory voters consider immigration to be one of their top three concerns whereas for Labour and Liberal supporters that number is more like 10%
If played correctly Brexit will bury the Tories at the next election because the nation isn't full of rampant xenophobes. And it really isn't a good idea to give up economic prosperity just to appease the far right and put an end to freedom of movement. The good news is that this can all be fixed but we probably need an election first.
People are dying while others are losing life opportunities but it is not in Corbyn's gift to choose the date of the next election. What will bring an early election is if May tries to force the WA through thus giving Remain Tories no option but to cross the floor. Or for May to be replaced by a nutter. Only today Johnson made out that the EU is laying claim to N.Ireland.
Labour's path is to stay calm, keep developing a policy platform and keep building the organisation to deliver a win at the next election. May and Hammond are trying to end austerity but so far only for the NHS. Not social care, nor many other departments. And by ending austerity they flag up the question of why so long? For the Tories have delivered austerity for eight years solid.
My fear of any new Labour government is that they will be incompetent and that they won't have what it takes to get us out of this mess. My fears of any continuance of the Tories in government is that not only are they incompetent, we have seen that, but that there are a good number of them (particularly in the Eurosceptic wing of the party) who are selfishly-malevolent. It is these people who want to push Brexit precisely because they want to roll back the rights of ordinary people that I want to ensure are kept as far away from government as possible.
My fear of any new Labour government is that they will be incompetent and that they won't have what it takes to get us out of this mess. My fears of any continuance of the Tories in government is that not only are they incompetent, we have seen that, but that there are a good number of them (particularly in the Eurosceptic wing of the party) who are selfishly-malevolent. It is these people who want to push Brexit precisely because they want to roll back the rights of ordinary people that I want to ensure are kept as far away from government as possible.
What a mess.
So true.
We add need a centralist remain party but we're stuck with these two disasters.
Meanwhile, 2 years after literally every other credible news source came to this conclusion, the BBC finally report that the Leave campaigners acted unlawfully.
I thought it almost certain that Labour would call a vote of no confidence next Wednesday after the WA is defeated in the Commons. Now I’m not so sure that they will. Provided Mays plan falls the DUP will not support a no confidence vote and it goes without saying that every Tory will vote in support of the government. Labour calling and losing a vote could be a problem for them with the unintended consequence of uniting the Tories albeit still split over Brexit.
Now think May will soldier on and try for a second vote a few weeks later with one or two tweaks to the deal handed to her by Brussels. Still don’t see it as salvageable though. Just more mess and no clear way of tidying it up.
Meanwhile, 2 years after literally every other credible news source came to this conclusion, the BBC finally report that the Leave campaigners acted unlawfully.
Meanwhile, 2 years after literally every other credible news source came to this conclusion, the BBC finally report that the Leave campaigners acted unlawfully.
Relegated to 3rd story. First we have to sit through a nicely balanced discussion of an ERG twat, a DUP twat, and Vicky Ford. Moderated by a Tory party member, allegedly.
Claiming she has been stitched up. Serves her right. Just need to look at her track record to realise what a gullible fool Maria Caulfield is. Working class tories. Don’t you just love em!
So everyone knows that Germany is no longer a threat to us but rather an ally in the war against all that is ill in the world.
And France, how refreshing to have a politician in the lead who seems to have a limited taint of corruption and is looking to, as much as possible, make things better in his country and with his trading partners.
If only we had the option to join with these countries to influence the worlld in a significant way.
To jointly influence global policy on global warming, to fight against terrosist activity; to stabilise the Middle East; to reacted together against oppressive regimes such as Russia and China and to be able to hold them to account.
But no, let’s go our own way, go our own way. It’s another lonely day.
No ones life will improve immediately on or immediately after the UK leaving the EU other than those who have big bets (Rees-mogg etc) in financial market disruption on or immediately after.
In 30 years with a fair wind could this country be better off outside the EU?
Comments
Zealots are the worst
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/05/unite-leader-warns-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum
The Unite general secretary, Len McCluskey, has privately told Labour MPs the party should have severe reservations about backing a fresh Brexit referendum, saying voters could see it as a betrayal.
The deep scepticism from one of Jeremy Corbyn’s closest and most powerful supporters is likely to unnerve MPs and campaigners hoping the party is warming to the idea of a fresh Brexit vote.
So both parties useless and in a mess - Lib Dems no better. What a complete shower!
Th eWA bill will fail - then Labour will try a no confidence motion and the Tories will win for the DUP are not giving up their influence - nobody knows the arithmetic for a People's Vote but what we do know is that there's no appetite for No Deal. And that can only be stopped with a deal or aborting Brexit.
As for McClusky having concerns for Labour voters views on immigration? That's known as appeasement and part of why we have arrived at this point. Immigrants are simply not responsible for wage stagnation and globalisation nor austerity and one would hope that people like McClusky would be responsible enough to direct voters to the real causes such as the Blue Party in Westminster rather than the EU.
This isn't a game, it's fucking Brexit. It is the worst thing to happen to this country since WWII. It would be the worst of all worlds if Labour took us out of Europe, crashed the economy in the process and handed the Tories a further ten years unfettered control to wreak more havoc.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/the-betrayal-of-the-brexit-bunch/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Corbyn needs to grow a pair and stand up for a genuine alternative to the Tories instead of sitting in the shadows playing with his plums.
If he is incapable of doing that,, and I strongly believe he is, then he should clear off and let someone with some serious credibility have a go.
I think you might be confusing me for a Labour supporter. I am not.
What a mess.
Looking at the WA that is stuck with an approval still in the 20s up a sliverr to 26%. Most notably when overlaying Party loyalties, 50% of Tory voters support the WA with the rest either against of don't know whereas 75-80% of Labour voters are against the WA.
This is a material shift since the WA was released and if the development continues after the WA is defeated and after Christmas then pressure on May will reach extraordinary levels. The poll contains all kinds of wonderful information including the fact that 34% of Tory voters consider immigration to be one of their top three concerns whereas for Labour and Liberal supporters that number is more like 10%
If played correctly Brexit will bury the Tories at the next election because the nation isn't full of rampant xenophobes. And it really isn't a good idea to give up economic prosperity just to appease the far right and put an end to freedom of movement. The good news is that this can all be fixed but we probably need an election first.
People are dying while others are losing life opportunities but it is not in Corbyn's gift to choose the date of the next election. What will bring an early election is if May tries to force the WA through thus giving Remain Tories no option but to cross the floor. Or for May to be replaced by a nutter. Only today Johnson made out that the EU is laying claim to N.Ireland.
Labour's path is to stay calm, keep developing a policy platform and keep building the organisation to deliver a win at the next election. May and Hammond are trying to end austerity but so far only for the NHS. Not social care, nor many other departments. And by ending austerity they flag up the question of why so long? For the Tories have delivered austerity for eight years solid.
What a mess.
We add need a centralist remain party but we're stuck with these two disasters.
Meanwhile, 2 years after literally every other credible news source came to this conclusion, the BBC finally report that the Leave campaigners acted unlawfully.
Now think May will soldier on and try for a second vote a few weeks later with one or two tweaks to the deal handed to her by Brussels. Still don’t see it as salvageable though. Just more mess and no clear way of tidying it up.
This is precious.
Never had less confidence in the BBC than now.
So everyone knows that Germany is no longer a threat to us but rather an ally in the war against all that is ill in the world.
And France, how refreshing to have a politician in the lead who seems to have a limited taint of corruption and is looking to, as much as possible, make things better in his country and with his trading partners.
If only we had the option to join with these countries to influence the worlld in a significant way.
To jointly influence global policy on global warming, to fight against terrosist activity; to stabilise the Middle East; to reacted together against oppressive regimes such as Russia and China and to be able to hold them to account.
But no, let’s go our own way, go our own way. It’s another lonely day.
No ones life will improve immediately on or immediately after the UK leaving the EU other than those who have big bets (Rees-mogg etc) in financial market disruption on or immediately after.
In 30 years with a fair wind could this country be better off outside the EU?
Maybe but very unlikely I think.