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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
  • Greenie said:

    Greenie said:

    Chizz said:

    Can anyone advise where to go to watch the civil unrest unfold?

    The frothing aneurysm Nigel Farage (“I will... don khaki, pick up a rifle and head for the front lines”) seems to be suggesting that some kind of violent disobedience will be enacted by hurt quitters whose will could be usurped by testing that will, democratically, by means of a People's Vote. But it leaves a number of questions outstanding. Like, where will this happen? Who will be taking part? To what end? And, the big one, against whom will this violence be aimed? Who will be on the receiving end?

    I am interested in how Farage - and his fellow quitters - intend for this civil unrest to be played out. Who do they intend to fight? The British police? The British Army? Remain campaigners?

    And, most interesting of all, I want to know what's going to be on their banners and in their chants. I am particularly interested in the one that will go: "What do we want?" "DEMOCRACY!" "When do we want it?" "ONLY IN 2016 AND CERTAINLY NOT SUBSEQUENTLY!"

    Does anyone know where this civil unrest is likely to take place? And is there a stream?

    I would worry that if there is unrest it might target immigrant communities, especially with the media stirring it up. Hopefully there won't be any trouble but there are some very angry people out there, even if they can't coherently explain why.
    The 2012 London Olympics is a distant memory, when the whole nation's atmosphere was so great and where everyone was just completely super proud of itself and all of our athletes, such as Mo Farrah and Jessica Ennis.
    It's all too depressing to see where we now find ourselves, expecting civil unrest from the far right in targeting immigrants
    The 2012 Olympics cost us £8.77bn, well worth it to see Dressage and Synchronised swimming if you ask me. Much better than being spent on the NHS or other parts of our eroding country. Not to mentioned the much mentioned Olympic legacy that didn't exist, oh yes and selling our Olympic stadium to West Ham for fifty quid, that was worth it as well...but hey as long the nations atmosphere was great for a month then it was all worth it... do me a favour.
    So 2012 Olympics - bad, but the targeting of immigrants going forward - good


    OK
    Are you on medication?
    we both know that's what you meant mate.
  • edited December 2018
    Maybe it's just me, but I would want to vent my anger that we could be targeting immigrants in future rather than the hosting of a successful Olympics back in 2012.


    Apologies if I have upset others too
  • edited December 2018

    I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
    There's still a call to smash windows through a No Deal Brexit - the associated drop in GDP will inevitably be blamed on the EU! And the majority of Leave voters appear to support a No Deal outcome whereas only a minority support the WA - but so what?!

    Every month some Leave voters are changing their minds. What is required is a steady climb in the polls for either Remain or a Norway style BINO AND a steady climb for a second referendum. There are millions of Leave voters who are intransigent and married to their 2016 decision. But the polls now show a large gap between Remain and the WA which are the only two options on the table. And they also show that support for a second referendum has climbed by a few points.

    This in turn indicates a swing of a couple of million voters over the last few months. So we can listen to all shades of Leave voters and their concerns, real or otherwise. And we know that Brexit solves nothing, especially a Brexit that leaves us locked into the CU forever which is clearly a worse deal than that which we enjoy today. Therefore the answer is to win over new voters and those Leave voters who show some remorse or even anger at the 2016 decision. This is important for the country to thrive in the long run - we need a majority, ideally 60:40 to vote for either Remain or BINO at the appropriate time.

    In the meantime the High Court starts a case tomorrow looking into fraud and associated secret (foreign) donations to the Leave campaigns. This has been fast-tracked and is likely to finish before Christmas. One outcome may be to annul the 2016 referendum!

  • Really? I’d be surprised if any judges had the balls to annul the result.
  • I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
    There's still a call to smash windows through a No Deal Brexit - the associated drop in GDP will inevitably be blamed on the EU! And the majority of Leave voters appear to support a No Deal outcome whereas only a minority support the WA - but so what?!

    Every month some Leave voters are changing their minds. What is required is a steady climb in the polls for either Remain or a Norway style BINO AND a steady climb for a second referendum. There are millions of Leave voters who are intransigent and married to their 2016 decision. But the polls now show a large gap between Remain and the WA which are the only two options on the table. And they also show that support for a second referendum has climbed by a few points.

    This in turn indicates a swing of a couple of million voters over the last few months. So we can listen to all shades of Leave voters and their concerns, real or otherwise. And we know that Brexit solves nothing, especially a Brexit that leaves us locked into the CU forever which is clearly a worse deal than that which we enjoy today. Therefore the answer is to win over new voters and those Leave voters who show some remorse or even anger at the 2016 decision. This is important for the country to thrive in the long run - we need a majority, ideally 60:40 to vote for either Remain or BINO at the appropriate time.

    In the meantime the High Court starts a case tomorrow looking into fraud and associated secret (foreign) donations to the Leave campaigns. This has been fast-tracked and is likely to finish before Christmas. One outcome may be to annul the 2016 referendum!

    Is that even theoretically possible?
  • se9addick said:

    I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
    There's still a call to smash windows through a No Deal Brexit - the associated drop in GDP will inevitably be blamed on the EU! And the majority of Leave voters appear to support a No Deal outcome whereas only a minority support the WA - but so what?!

    Every month some Leave voters are changing their minds. What is required is a steady climb in the polls for either Remain or a Norway style BINO AND a steady climb for a second referendum. There are millions of Leave voters who are intransigent and married to their 2016 decision. But the polls now show a large gap between Remain and the WA which are the only two options on the table. And they also show that support for a second referendum has climbed by a few points.

    This in turn indicates a swing of a couple of million voters over the last few months. So we can listen to all shades of Leave voters and their concerns, real or otherwise. And we know that Brexit solves nothing, especially a Brexit that leaves us locked into the CU forever which is clearly a worse deal than that which we enjoy today. Therefore the answer is to win over new voters and those Leave voters who show some remorse or even anger at the 2016 decision. This is important for the country to thrive in the long run - we need a majority, ideally 60:40 to vote for either Remain or BINO at the appropriate time.

    In the meantime the High Court starts a case tomorrow looking into fraud and associated secret (foreign) donations to the Leave campaigns. This has been fast-tracked and is likely to finish before Christmas. One outcome may be to annul the 2016 referendum!

    Is that even theoretically possible?
    I doubt it.

    The electoral commission can only levy fines and has no power to annul the result (especially as the referendum was only advisory).
  • We're still gonna get this Brexit Festival we've been promised I hope
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  • se9addick said:

    I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
    There's still a call to smash windows through a No Deal Brexit - the associated drop in GDP will inevitably be blamed on the EU! And the majority of Leave voters appear to support a No Deal outcome whereas only a minority support the WA - but so what?!

    Every month some Leave voters are changing their minds. What is required is a steady climb in the polls for either Remain or a Norway style BINO AND a steady climb for a second referendum. There are millions of Leave voters who are intransigent and married to their 2016 decision. But the polls now show a large gap between Remain and the WA which are the only two options on the table. And they also show that support for a second referendum has climbed by a few points.

    This in turn indicates a swing of a couple of million voters over the last few months. So we can listen to all shades of Leave voters and their concerns, real or otherwise. And we know that Brexit solves nothing, especially a Brexit that leaves us locked into the CU forever which is clearly a worse deal than that which we enjoy today. Therefore the answer is to win over new voters and those Leave voters who show some remorse or even anger at the 2016 decision. This is important for the country to thrive in the long run - we need a majority, ideally 60:40 to vote for either Remain or BINO at the appropriate time.

    In the meantime the High Court starts a case tomorrow looking into fraud and associated secret (foreign) donations to the Leave campaigns. This has been fast-tracked and is likely to finish before Christmas. One outcome may be to annul the 2016 referendum!

    Is that even theoretically possible?
    Is it even necessary? The referendum was only advisory.
  • McCluskey, and his union, have killed the Labour Party. Completely destroyed it.
    Which is why I wasn't much impressed with @seriously_red suggestion that we look to the trade unions for leadership. While not all of them are like Unite, too many of them are led by people who are still fighting the class war.

    #kickartthisTorreeguvmentnreplaceitwivaLabourguvmentpledgedtososhulistpolicees

  • McCluskey, and his union, have killed the Labour Party. Completely destroyed it.
    Which is why I wasn't much impressed with @seriously_red suggestion that we look to the trade unions for leadership. While not all of them are like Unite, too many of them are led by people who are still fighting the class war.

    #kickartthisTorreeguvmentnreplaceitwivaLabourguvmentpledgedtososhulistpolicees

    To be fair, Unison who are the countries biggest union are far more anti leaving, espeically as they are a union which has a focus on the health service.

    Corbyn and McCluskey believe in socialism in one country, that's there only world view.
  • se9addick said:

    I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.

    Quite right! "Achieving" was the wrong choice of words! I definitely don't believe vandalising things ever achieves anything!

    But offering the original referendum was like handing out free hammers to the 1000 ignored Charlton supporters as they left the hall that night! "We don't care what you really want but maybe breaking a few windows will make you feel better".

    For what it's worth, I suspect that, amongst other things, @southbank and @blackpool72 know that this country currently relies on constant and growing immigration to maintain a steady standard of living. Without it we would all be lost! That's got to be a bit worrying!

    For some reason (which they cannot really explain) they hoped that leaving the EU might somehow change this. Unfortunately my view is that they've just smashed a few windows and achieved nothing!
    There's still a call to smash windows through a No Deal Brexit - the associated drop in GDP will inevitably be blamed on the EU! And the majority of Leave voters appear to support a No Deal outcome whereas only a minority support the WA - but so what?!

    Every month some Leave voters are changing their minds. What is required is a steady climb in the polls for either Remain or a Norway style BINO AND a steady climb for a second referendum. There are millions of Leave voters who are intransigent and married to their 2016 decision. But the polls now show a large gap between Remain and the WA which are the only two options on the table. And they also show that support for a second referendum has climbed by a few points.

    This in turn indicates a swing of a couple of million voters over the last few months. So we can listen to all shades of Leave voters and their concerns, real or otherwise. And we know that Brexit solves nothing, especially a Brexit that leaves us locked into the CU forever which is clearly a worse deal than that which we enjoy today. Therefore the answer is to win over new voters and those Leave voters who show some remorse or even anger at the 2016 decision. This is important for the country to thrive in the long run - we need a majority, ideally 60:40 to vote for either Remain or BINO at the appropriate time.

    In the meantime the High Court starts a case tomorrow looking into fraud and associated secret (foreign) donations to the Leave campaigns. This has been fast-tracked and is likely to finish before Christmas. One outcome may be to annul the 2016 referendum!

    Is that even theoretically possible?
    Is it even necessary? The referendum was only advisory.
    Right, but the legislation passed since then isn’t.
  • legislation can always be changed/reversed, it's a key point of our constitution.
  • edited December 2018
    Stephen Lloyd quits Lib Dems to vote for the Brexit deal. You can always trust a Lib Dem ;)
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  • legislation can always be changed/reversed, it's a key point of our constitution.

    Right, but the point @seriously_red made was that the high court could “annul the 2016” referendum, which would be awesome, but I don’t think it’s correct.
  • Leuth said:

    Stephen Lloyd quits Lib Dems to vote for the Brexit deal. You can always trust a Lib Dem ;)

    i worked with him, briefly, in between his two stints as MP. Odd guy.
  • se9addick said:

    legislation can always be changed/reversed, it's a key point of our constitution.

    Right, but the point @seriously_red made was that the high court could “annul the 2016” referendum, which would be awesome, but I don’t think it’s correct.
    I do not think legally there is anything that can or needs to be done. All the legislation mandated was that a referendum was held, not what would come after. Strictly speaking that legislation is still on the books but legally it is defunct as all the relevant actions from it lapsed the day after the votes were counted.

    Really, the only meaningful thing that can be done would be for Parliament to pass a motion disregarding the result. Which will obviously never happen. It is more like that either Parliament will pass a law calling for a new referendum (which would supersede the 2016 vote) or vote to withdraw Article 50/cancel Brexit, which would have the de facto effect of disregarding the result.
  • https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/uk-world/rbs-to-shift-13bn-of-business-to-netherlands-in-event-of-disorderly-brexit-37601864.html

    RBS to shift £13bn of business to Netherlands in event of disorderly Brexit
    About 30% of the customers for its investment banking unit will move to the state-owned lender’s new Dutch subsidiary if there is no deal.
  • I believe most of the people who voted to leave did so to make some point about the way they feel disrespected or forgotten by the establishment.

    Asking them to justify their decision is like asking someone who just sprayed graffiti over a wall what he has achieved. Or asking the 2011 London rioters exactly what was the point of burning down the factories in Croydon.

    A similar thing is happening in France with the yellow jackets at the moment.

    In the end, they have all achieved something because they have been listened to. I just wish there was some other way to make yourself heard without vandalising property or breaking up hard-won alliances and peace treaties!

    Have they really been "listened to"? If so, what was it they were saying? I am trying to listen to @southbank, and @blackpool72 but neither of them want to answer me. As a reminder my simple and politely phrased question was "How do you expect your own personal life to improve as a result of Brexit"?

    Your argument is dangerous anyway. In 1989 Greenwich Council decided to ignore and treat with contempt the 1,000 of us who packed into Woolwich Town Hall. A lot of us walked out in disgust. Quite a few felt like going out and smashing some windows. Instead we formed the Valley Party and did things properly. We argued our case carefully, and a whole load of people who didn't even care about Charlton as a football club, voted for us. And the rest is history . That was a listening process.
    https://youtu.be/Iyq4HZZ4H50
  • edited December 2018
    The problem is you can't undo the mistake of having the referendum. Brexit can't just be put in the box by politicians, the people have to put it back. In fact, another vote would move it away from the politicians which should be a positive thing!
  • This tweet shows that Sun leader I mentioned earlier. And look who is calling it out, too
  • Stupidity isn't confined to leavers despite the apparent general consensus in this echo chamber.

    LBC yesterday pm:
    'Leavers want to kick out my Danish partner and I'm transgender so what will happen to me?'

    Oh and let's put this Bollox about a second referendum being more democracy not less and quoting that we get a chance to vote out a government don't we? Once we get out of the EU for a few years then start arguing for another referendum then, not before the vote to take us out has been acted on in good faith.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!