What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
Upsides and downsides are usually with reference to the financials. There is quite a lot more to brexit than that.
Yep, Brexit is the biggest loss of rights in modern British history, difficult to forgive those who have blithely voted for me to lose my rights, and galling to have them claim me losing rights as some sort of victory.
There are few Brexiters claiming victory I think you will find.
Maybe not now, but for much of the last two years we've heard nothing, but "leave won, get over it", like I'm supposed to jsut get over my rights being stolen and the financial security of myself, my children and my eventual grandchildren (remember Rees-Mogg blithely saying it could take 50 years before there is any upside?) needlessly put at risk, and to gain what? Please tell me something, anything that is worth what is being forcibly taken from me? It's been over 2 years and nobody can tell me anything that comes even close to being worth what I'm losing.
Forcibly or democratically?
Even if we ignore the fact that it wasn't a binding referendum, that the result was a rounding error in size and that referenda aren't actually recognised by our parliamentary democracy. It's only democratic if the electorate are informed, it's clearly spelt our what will happen for each of the given options (you know, like countries that actually use referenda properly do) and the referendum is conducted under full election law.
What we had was a purely advisory popularity contest where the contestants could tell any lies they liked with impunity apparently.
It's was, and remains, a twisted corruption of the democratic process in this country, that promised the undeliverable to the uninformed.
So the electorate were all fully informed to a level that meets your criteria when we voted to join the EEC? Or at the last election? Or any election?
I think you're missing the point, and that's my fault as I didn't phrase this very well.
Obviously, the better informed the electorate, then better the democracy, but Brexit is unique in that is was set-up to ensure that the electorate were as uninformed as possible. I said on the previous Brexit thread (and probably on this one), it doesn't matter if you're pro or anti Brexit, you shouldn't have voted for it in this referendum as it was defined as to what we'd get, and it was always clear that for it to be successful it would require politicians far more competent than any we currently have available.
In a normal election each party will produce a manifesto plus party political broadcasts, adverts, etc. There are clear laws governing the production of each of those. There's also clear laws on where the funding for that production can come from and how the parties disclose that funding. That ensures that should the electorate which to be better informed, that should easily be able to see what each candidate stands for, what each candidate is offering, and be reasonably confident that that information is accurate and what the candidate is offering is legal and possible.
The referendum ditched all those protections. If you wished to be truly informed about what you would get if you voted yes, the whole referendum was set up to ensure you couldn't. And not only that, everybody involved was allowed to lie, so not only would you find no actual factual information about what you would get, but you would be bombarded by propaganda and lies instead. Furthermore, if you did happen to find any useful information about the likely outcome of a leave vote, the campaign was allowed to lie to you about it.
It wasn't that the electorate was uninformed when voting in the referendum, it was that they were deliberately kept that way. The leave campaign made promises impossible to keep, that were self-contradictory in many cases, and ensured that anybody thinking about voting leave heard what they wanted leave to be.
We see it on here all the time, leavers saying they voted for X, Y and Z. No you didn't, you voted to leave, nothing more nothing less, but the referendum was set up to allow people to promise you that you'd get X,Y and Z no matter how impossible or damaging that may be.
If an informed electorate results in a stronger democracy, then a deceived electorate results in a weaker one. Leavers keep saying a second referendum would be undemocratic when they are a party to one of the greatest sabotages our democracy has ever suffered.
Do you think this would be any different in a second referendum? For example, the project fear projections about the economy are as accurate as any predictions about the economy ever are-ie almost entirely made up. Do you think that these presentations of opinion as fact will be omitted from the Remain campaign? Or any promises that Remain may make about where the EU might or might not go in the future in relation to European armies, more federalisation or legislation on any number of things that may affect us in the future and over which we would exercise extremely limited control?
If you think that the Remain campaign will be any more honest than the Leave campaign then I am afraid you will be in for a shock. They will depend entirely on trying to frighten people by presenting a coordinated propaganda offensive painting the future outside the EU as a disaster, which will have only a vague approximation to the truth.
As in any election, people will weigh up their thoughts and feelings about what they are being told and will vote accordingly. Your assumption, widely held, is that Remainers are smart people who are not easily deceived and Leavers are dumb and easily malleable. Whereas the capitulation to project fear is the stupidest thing of all.
In my view many leading Remainers have contempt for the people whom they represent and have spent the past 2 years insulting and demeaning them. If the words of many Remainers were applied to any other group in society it would be considered a hate crime-consider that the hope that Brexit can be solved when Brexiters die is a common refrain, for example, how loathsome is that? The generation which raised younger people and created our prosperous, democratic society are now despised and wished dead.
And yet there is Jo Cox to consider. The brexit rhetoric is quite poisonous.
There are no longer 17.4 million living Brexit voters. The number now is barely 16 million.
Wow, you really asked them all? That is dedication above and beyond-although I must have been out when you came round.
It is a statistical fact. Even moronic Brexit voters can't question actuarial mortality calculations.
Your original assertion though can’t be proven. 1.74 million might have died but how many of those voted. We’re they all brexiters - No. Although stats would indicate that brexiters would be more affected in the age group that have indeed died.
Don’t understand your point. The study concluded that 450,000 Leavers are dying each year and 150,000 Remainers.
Do you have a link?
ONS reports 533,253 deaths in 2017 and 525,048 in 2016.
Those figures are for England and Wales only.
Must be an enormous amount of deaths in Scotland and N. Ireland in order for the figures you originally stated to stack up.
There were 56,768 deaths in Scotland in 2016.
Then as I said, the trend is right, but the figures were vastly exaggerated.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
Agree that it's very hard to work out the exact figures but with the demographic changes moving to Remain more and more each passing week, what will the 'will of the people' be in a few years?
It seems ridiculous that the UK could crash out of the EU, suffer economic consequences and be in a ridiculous situation in three or so years where an increasing majority never wanted it to happen and find that their lives have been massively affected by something that a smaller and smaller minority of their present time actually voted for.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
We can just install huge guns around our entire coastline and blast the invading scum to high heaven. It'll be fun, spectacular and deeply arousing. Yours, a committed Brexiteer
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
When those 50-54 year olds become elderly and automatically start voting for Brexit there'll be trouble. Better get a new vote sequence going soon. Best of 5 should do it.
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
When those 50-54 year olds become elderly and automatically start voting for Brexit there'll be trouble. Better get a new vote sequence going soon. Best of 5 should do it.
I made the point a while ago that many of the people who supported joining in the 1970s voted against it this time. The longer you experience the EU generally the more you dislike it.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
Not what I would call an elite. I don't think uni lecturers run the country.
Rees-Mogg is from an elite. Landed, old money, Eton. Was his father editor of the Times?
Boris Johnson - Elite, Eton, Oxford, Telegraph, MP
Leuth - Elite Public School, upper class privilege, uses words like poppyjay
We can just install huge guns around our entire coastline and blast the invading scum to high heaven. It'll be fun, spectacular and deeply arousing. Yours, a committed Brexiteer
as we are playing ridiculous games of nonsense.... Sounds like your front door is always open. How kind. Me 'n' a boat load of mates are looking for somewhere to crash. What time can we pitch up at your gaffe?
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
So professionals = elites now?
The received wisdom is that, generally, any group comprising an 'elite' would be quite small compared to the population. Your varying definitions of 'elites' seem to make up half the country (although for some reason exclude Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Arron Banks, Crispin Odey, Tim Martin, James Dyson and the various other millionaires and magnates who make up the Brexiter elite).
You're right that there's no point in the discussion but mainly because you keep repeating a lie that not a single other person is going to believe.
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
There are no longer 17.4 million living Brexit voters. The number now is barely 16 million.
Wow, you really asked them all? That is dedication above and beyond-although I must have been out when you came round.
It is a statistical fact. Even moronic Brexit voters can't question actuarial mortality calculations.
Your original assertion though can’t be proven. 1.74 million might have died but how many of those voted. We’re they all brexiters - No. Although stats would indicate that brexiters would be more affected in the age group that have indeed died.
Don’t understand your point. The study concluded that 450,000 Leavers are dying each year and 150,000 Remainers.
Do you have a link?
ONS reports 533,253 deaths in 2017 and 525,048 in 2016.
Those figures are for England and Wales only.
Must be an enormous amount of deaths in Scotland and N. Ireland in order for the figures you originally stated to stack up.
There were 56,768 deaths in Scotland in 2016.
Those are just the numbers for deep fried mars bar induced cholesterol related deaths.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
Not what I would call an elite. I don't think uni lecturers run the country.
Rees-Mogg is from an elite. Landed, old money, Eton. Was his father editor of the Times?
Boris Johnson - Elite, Eton, Oxford, Telegraph, MP
Leuth - Elite Public School, upper class privilege, uses words like poppyjay
Directly equating someone who usually lives off his overdraft, renting a basement flat next to a council estate aged 31 with two landlord millionaires? Guess I'm just not very good at being elite
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
Officially they weren't, so he's right but he also bangs on about people believing Farage who was not officially part of the Leave campaign. Which basically makes his argument on that front null and void. Unless the rose tinted glasses are that strong, it's silly when a remainer says it but damn lies when it's a leaver.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
Not what I would call an elite. I don't think uni lecturers run the country.
Rees-Mogg is from an elite. Landed, old money, Eton. Was his father editor of the Times?
Boris Johnson - Elite, Eton, Oxford, Telegraph, MP
Leuth - Elite Public School, upper class privilege, uses words like poppyjay
Directly equating someone who usually lives off his overdraft, renting a basement flat next to a council estate aged 31 with two landlord millionaires? Guess I'm just not very good at being elite
What is indisputable is that people are dying. The vast majority of those are elderly and the demographic of the Brexit vote was that the older generations tended to vote leave. The point @Red_in_SE8 originally made was correct even if the exact figures of deaths overlaid with voting in the referendum are not as precise.
When those 50-54 year olds become elderly and automatically start voting for Brexit there'll be trouble. Better get a new vote sequence going soon. Best of 5 should do it.
I made the point a while ago that many of the people who supported joining in the 1970s voted against it this time. The longer you experience the EU generally the more you dislike it.
I think it’s widely accepted that as you increase in years you tend to become a bit more right wing and often have a romantic view of how wonderful it used to be. Certainly all the over eighties I know are far more like that than I remember them being when younger. I think that flavours their voting pattern somewhat.
The first vote I ever took part in was the vote to join the the common market. I voted yes then and am just as keen on The European project now.
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
They had no affiliation with the official Remain campaign. Most members of the government stayed at arm's length to the official Remain campaigning.
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
Officially they weren't, so he's right but he also bangs on about people believing Farage who was not officially part of the Leave campaign. Which basically makes his argument on that front null and void. Unless the rose tinted glasses are that strong, it's silly when a remainer says it but damn lies when it's a leaver.
Farage worked with both the official Leave campaign and was heavily involved with the other affiliated campaigns such as Leave.EU. So no it doesn't make my argument null and void.
Over one million have died since June 2016 and it is estimated that 750,000 17 year olds attain the franchise every year. We all know that those over 65 tend to vote for the Blue party and also tended to vote Leave back in 2016. However it's a combination of several factors which are leading to the polls shifting. For sure people dying and teenagers securing a vote changes things but the arrival of the proposed withdrawal agreement AND a shift in views has moved the latest polls to a whopping 55:45 Remain lead (excluding don't knows). @micks1950 makes the excellent poinit about actual turnout and one might opine that the Remain camp would be somewhat more motivated. And it's worth adding that that those who abstained back then have polled with a significant remain bias - so another vote would get some of them out.
These are polls, not facts but we should not misinterpret the recent change in the landscape as some morbid celebration of the death of Leave voters. Death of a Hard Brexit is another matter and what we have seen is that the Chancellor is looking to shore up the economy. This combined with the GFA and the sheer idiocy of unilaterally leaving the CU has put an end to leaving everything. Even Raab spotted that frictionless trade at the Kent ports was somewhat key!
It is a fact that 17.4M voted leave. It is conjecture that they voted for a particular or literal interpretation. And if unicorns actually existed then they would now be considered an endangered species!
Every month the polls develop, the politics develop and we move another month away from June 2016. It is blindingly obvious that those most attached to that result are least willing to let go of it and have the temerity to call those who want another vote on the actual deal undemocratic. But the polls will only guide the MPs. It's the actual arithmetic and where the Tory Remainers fall that dictates both the life expectency of the WA and the options after that.
May is trying to deliver Brexit without crashing the economy. She too has been rewarded in the polls with a 33% increase in her support rating. For many now simply want Brexit to be delivered.
For sure some argue that we should leave everything because "that's what 17.4 million voted for". Except they didn't for a significant number of leave voters support remaining in the CU. And the polls hint that this is why 40% of those Tory Leave voters abandoning the Tories are migrating to Labour and not UKIP. So the Brextremists can continue the fight and now we all see that they cannot even get all the members of the ERG to support a no-confidence in the PM.
There will be more polls and we will see a trend develop. Right now the number which really matters is how the WA vote drops when it is put to the House. And what the oposition parties and Remain Tories decide to do should it fail.
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
They had no affiliation with the official Remain campaign. Most members of the government stayed at arm's length to the official Remain campaigning.
Nobody campaigned for Remain. That is why they lost. Apart from President Obama, all EU leaders, most MPs, the CBI, the IMF, the Bank of England, the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition, the City of London, most Tory MPs,most university lecturers, most lawyers, most teachers, the Labour Party, the SNP, the Liberals.(none of tbe above apparently constitute the elite by the way)
If only Remain had had some heavyweights behind it.
Ah the old 'all the elites want us to stay in the EU' lie rears its head again.
You've been away awhile. It rears its head more often than Farage rears his sweating mug on Question Time. We went to a lot of effort to get him to define who 'the elites' are. You can imagine how that went....
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion. .
Not what I would call an elite. I don't think uni lecturers run the country.
Rees-Mogg is from an elite. Landed, old money, Eton. Was his father editor of the Times?
Boris Johnson - Elite, Eton, Oxford, Telegraph, MP
Leuth - Elite Public School, upper class privilege, uses words like poppyjay
Directly equating someone who usually lives off his overdraft, renting a basement flat next to a council estate aged 31 with two landlord millionaires? Guess I'm just not very good at being elite
Oh wow, you live next to a council estate ... so real!
I was going to say that you are a condescending twat ... but I don’t think you are even that good.
Cameron and Osborne made less than helpful comments then both resigned. They were not part of any official Remain campaign.
Brilliant. The Prime Minister and The Chancellor who headed the campaign to Remain, were not part of the campaign. Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
They had no affiliation with the official Remain campaign. Most members of the government stayed at arm's length to the official Remain campaigning.
Nobody campaigned for Remain. That is why they lost. Apart from President Obama, all EU leaders, most MPs, the CBI, the IMF, the Bank of England, the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition, the City of London, most Tory MPs,most university lecturers, most lawyers, most teachers, the Labour Party, the SNP, the Liberals.(none of tbe above apparently constitute the elite by the way)
If only Remain had had some heavyweights behind it.
Comments
The brexit rhetoric is quite poisonous.
It seems ridiculous that the UK could crash out of the EU, suffer economic consequences and be in a ridiculous situation in three or so years where an increasing majority never wanted it to happen and find that their lives have been massively affected by something that a smaller and smaller minority of their present time actually voted for.
seems lessons haven't been learnt
Less than 130 days to go. Stay safe, y'all
If you want me to find the same story I can, for every profession, plus MPs, the CBI, etc etc
If you want to deny that these are not elites then there is no point in the discussion.
.
When those 50-54 year olds become elderly and automatically start voting for Brexit there'll be trouble.
Better get a new vote sequence going soon.
Best of 5 should do it.
Rees-Mogg is from an elite. Landed, old money, Eton. Was his father editor of the Times?
Boris Johnson - Elite, Eton, Oxford, Telegraph, MP
Leuth - Elite Public School, upper class privilege, uses words like poppyjay
Sounds like your front door is always open.
How kind.
Me 'n' a boat load of mates are looking for somewhere to crash.
What time can we pitch up at your gaffe?
The received wisdom is that, generally, any group comprising an 'elite' would be quite small compared to the population. Your varying definitions of 'elites' seem to make up half the country (although for some reason exclude Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg, Arron Banks, Crispin Odey, Tim Martin, James Dyson and the various other millionaires and magnates who make up the Brexiter elite).
You're right that there's no point in the discussion but mainly because you keep repeating a lie that not a single other person is going to believe.
Even Trump wouldn't come out with that.
The first vote I ever took part in was the vote to join the the common market. I voted yes then and am just as keen on The European project now.
These are polls, not facts but we should not misinterpret the recent change in the landscape as some morbid celebration of the death of Leave voters. Death of a Hard Brexit is another matter and what we have seen is that the Chancellor is looking to shore up the economy. This combined with the GFA and the sheer idiocy of unilaterally leaving the CU has put an end to leaving everything. Even Raab spotted that frictionless trade at the Kent ports was somewhat key!
It is a fact that 17.4M voted leave. It is conjecture that they voted for a particular or literal interpretation. And if unicorns actually existed then they would now be considered an endangered species!
Every month the polls develop, the politics develop and we move another month away from June 2016. It is blindingly obvious that those most attached to that result are least willing to let go of it and have the temerity to call those who want another vote on the actual deal undemocratic. But the polls will only guide the MPs. It's the actual arithmetic and where the Tory Remainers fall that dictates both the life expectency of the WA and the options after that.
May is trying to deliver Brexit without crashing the economy. She too has been rewarded in the polls with a 33% increase in her support rating. For many now simply want Brexit to be delivered.
For sure some argue that we should leave everything because "that's what 17.4 million voted for". Except they didn't for a significant number of leave voters support remaining in the CU. And the polls hint that this is why 40% of those Tory Leave voters abandoning the Tories are migrating to Labour and not UKIP. So the Brextremists can continue the fight and now we all see that they cannot even get all the members of the ERG to support a no-confidence in the PM.
There will be more polls and we will see a trend develop. Right now the number which really matters is how the WA vote drops when it is put to the House. And what the oposition parties and Remain Tories decide to do should it fail.
Apart from President Obama, all EU leaders, most MPs, the CBI, the IMF, the Bank of England, the Prime Minister, the leader of the opposition, the City of London, most Tory MPs,most university lecturers, most lawyers, most teachers, the Labour Party, the SNP, the Liberals.(none of tbe above apparently constitute the elite by the way)
If only Remain had had some heavyweights behind it.
I was going to say that you are a condescending twat ... but I don’t think you are even that good.