I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
Yes, I support it, I want another referendum. But I think when we hopefully have it, we ought to win it? It feels to me like some remainers are a bit too sure we would win it. The march was part of the pressure - telling politicians that a lot of people are calling for it. When we are given the options by May, and we do have to wait for them as they could be between her deal and no deal or just be a no deal, it will dictate the response.
Nothing I have said has contradicted itself, unless you want to look at it too simply. I forgive you for doing it that way Henry.
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
Yes, I support it, I want another referendum. But I think when we hopefully have it, we ought to win it? It feels to me like some remainers are a bit too sure we would win it. The march was part of the pressure - telling politicians that a lot of people are calling for it. When we are given the options by May, and we do have to wait for them as they could be between her deal and no deal or just be a no deal, it will dictate the response.
Nothing I have said has contradicted itself, unless you want to look at it too simply. I forgive you for doing it that way Henry.
"i believe in what i believe, until the dear leader tells me different"
One of the tropes that is still in existence is brexit voters saying they knew what they were voting for. My interpretation of that stance is that they have a thought-through solution to all of the issues and that they anticipated the current mess the UK is in. Brexit voters in that state of mind in my view should have a realistic answer to every question that arises from this whole process and into the next fifty years of the UK existence. Otherwise what? Do brexit voters say they didn't know what they were voting for after all? Until brexit voters start to ask themselves 'what on earth was I thinking?' rather than saying to others they knew what they were doing, then positions won't shift. A peoples vote and/or another referendum is very likely to be as divisive as the last one. There is no sign that brexit voters are able to bring themselves to admit that actually they don't have a clue, so the UK trundles on...reminds me of that old song 'Three Wheels On My Wagon', brexit voters still feel that a mile up the road there's a hidden cave and they can watch those Cherokees go galloping by. I am prepared to shift from remain to leave if I could be persuaded. I have asked on this thread periodically what the good thing about brexit is, and how exactly will it work, I am open to persuasion (admittedly it would be a tough call in my case), but one of the saddest aspects of this is that brexit voters are unable to explain any benefits. They often frame things in what can be got rid of, laws, immigrants, burgundy passports, subscription to the EU and so on (they might frame that stuff as a benefit), but they are unable to frame a positive picture of the future that stands up to any reasoned examination. So the brexit fall back position is 'we'll have to wait and see', and with that they stalk off to the outhouse with their roll up, bog paper and newspaper to await developments.
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
Yes, I support it, I want another referendum. But I think when we hopefully have it, we ought to win it? It feels to me like some remainers are a bit too sure we would win it. The march was part of the pressure - telling politicians that a lot of people are calling for it. When we are given the options by May, and we do have to wait for them as they could be between her deal and no deal or just be a no deal, it will dictate the response.
Nothing I have said has contradicted itself, unless you want to look at it too simply. I forgive you for doing it that way Henry.
"i believe in what i believe, until the dear leader tells me different"
What a load of crap from the usual suspects. I want a referendum. Just don't think it is a good idea calling Brexiters idiots and demanding it before May plays her cards. They will be played soon enough and the time to act will come.
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Hi @Southbank . It's three pages back so I just wanted to gently remind you of my question
Admittedly it's three years since I first asked you, so a few more days won't hurt.
Ha! I don't have any expectations either way for my personal life-but I guess you mean my finances/ business life. We have just received a big government order to create a post Brexit thing (can't go into any detail for confidentially reasons) which will create new jobs and would have gone to a different European country pre-Brexit. I imagine there is a lot of that happening. In general I think the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is if we leave or if we do not. As you know economics is not the reason I voted Brexit.
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
Yes, I support it, I want another referendum. But I think when we hopefully have it, we ought to win it? It feels to me like some remainers are a bit too sure we would win it. The march was part of the pressure - telling politicians that a lot of people are calling for it. When we are given the options by May, and we do have to wait for them as they could be between her deal and no deal or just be a no deal, it will dictate the response.
Nothing I have said has contradicted itself, unless you want to look at it too simply. I forgive you for doing it that way Henry.
Does that all that cognitive dissonance hurt or do you just chant "four legs good, two legs better" until the pain goes away?
Your the cultist, Henry. You'd rather focus on Corbyn than the people who are to blame for this complete mess! Says all that needs saying.
Much as Cameron, May, Johnson, Farage etc etc are to blame for this mess so, in part, is Corbyn and one day you will wake up and realise that.
A life long anti-EUer who did next to nothing in the referendum despite Remain being party policy and who now constantly contradicts the current labour party position. He keeps doing it and Starmer has to be wheeled out again to explain away the inconsistencies.
He gives an interview to a German paper (Meire style media work there) but is almost invisible in the UK debate, preferring to talk about Chile on the day of the People's March. Why? Because he's a leaver but he doesn't want to say that.
You're being played, you've always been played and I think the reason you are trying to make this all about me (there are lots of others on here and elsewhere saying the same thing but you only focus on me and try to make it personal) is that deep down you are starting to realise that. You're lashing out at me but really you know what I and many others are saying might just be closer to the truth than you want to admit.
Your the cultist, Henry. You'd rather focus on Corbyn than the people who are to blame for this complete mess! Says all that needs saying.
Much as Cameron, May, Johnson, Farage etc etc are to blame for this mess so, in part, is Corbyn and one day you will wake up and realise that.
A life long anti-EUer who did next to nothing in the referendum despite Remain being party policy and who now constantly contradicts the current labour party position. He keeps doing it and Starmer has to be wheeled out again to explain away the inconsistencies.
He gives an interview to a German paper (Meire style media work there) but is almost invisible in the UK debate, preferring to talk about Chile on the day of the People's March. Why? Because he's a leaver but he doesn't want to say that.
You're being played, you've always been played and I think the reason you are trying to make this all about me (there are lots of others on here and elsewhere saying the same thing but you only focus on me and try to make it personal) is that deep down you are starting to realise that. You're lashing out at me but really you know what I and many others are saying might just be closer to the truth than you want to admit.
These accusations are constantly repeated, usually without citing any evidence.
So, although it's been posted before, it seems necessary to repeat the actual evidence from the time of the 2016 referendum:
Jeremy Corbyn and the EU Referendum
Angela Eagle 16.41 13th June 2016:
“Jeremy [Corbyn] is up and down the country, pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported, it is very difficult. This whole thing is about Tory big beasts having a battle like rutting stags, but it’s far more important, this vote, than any of that”.
The only substantial analysis of how those that voted for each party in the 2015 General Election then cast their vote in the EU Referendum (by Lord Ashcroft Polls – link below) suggests that Labour supporters voted 63% for Remain - only just behind the 64% of SNP supporters who voted Remain in Scotland.
However, what was hailed as a triumph for the SNP in Scotland has been presented as a failure by Labour in the UK as a whole – and in particular a personal failure by Corbyn; while no mention is made of the role of the official ‘leader’ of the ‘Labour In’ campaign – Alan Johnson MP.
“A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters. Nearly two thirds of Labour and SNP voters (63% and 64%), seven in ten Liberal Democrats and three quarters of Greens, voted to remain”.
Media coverage of the EU Referendum (report 5) 27th June 2016
Loughborough University Centre for Research in Communication and Culture
Table 2.1: Top thirty media appearances (6 May – 22 June)
Key findings:
“The most frequently reported Labour politician was Jeremy Corbyn (7th) [123 appearances]. Only ten Labour politicians made the top thirty. They account for 15% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty”.
I try not to get dragged back in to the pre-referendum debate but I think the fact that 2 & 1/2 years after the vote posters on here are still discussing what the supposed benefits of this all are and Leavers (and Cabinet Ministers ffs!), are still unable to point to any real, day-to-day, tangible, positive outcomes to the general population speaks volumes.
At this stage not one of us should have to ask that question.
Angela Eagle is a labour MP so not really an unbiased source there.
Not sure what the Ashcroft polls say about Corbyn other than that he was a failure but Alan Johnson lead the Labour in campaign. So 63% of labour supporters voted remain. So Corbyn has a mandate to support remain then. But he doesn't.
The Loughborough research contradicts what you quoted Angela Eagle as saying.
Corbyn was Labour Leader so of course he would or should get more appearances in the media than other labour policiticians. What that doesn't say is what did those media appearances cover? What did he say? Did he have any impact.
My recollection was that Corbyn and Labour in general were very low key in the campaign and Corbyn made some half hearted announcements about working time directives and working conditions near the end of the campaign but very little else.
Angela Eagle is a labour MP so not really an unbiased source there.
Not sure what the Ashcroft polls say about Corbyn other than that he was a failure but Alan Johnson lead the Labour in campaign. So 63% of labour supporters voted remain. So Corbyn has a mandate to support remain then. But he doesn't.
The Loughborough research contradicts what you quoted Angela Eagle as saying.
Corbyn was Labour Leader so of course he would or should get more appearances in the media than other labour policiticians. What that doesn't say is what did those media appearances cover? What did he say? Did he have any impact.
My recollection was that Corbyn and Labour in general were very low key in the campaign and Corbyn made some half hearted announcements about working time directives and working conditions near the end of the campaign but very little else.
It’s noteworthy that you’ve offered no evidence of your own – apart from your ‘recollection’.
But Angela Eagle’s quote and the Loughborough research, which you wrongly say contradicts what Angela Eagle said, go some way to explaining your ‘recollection’.
Angela Eagle said “if we are not reported, it is very difficult. This whole thing is about Tory big beasts having a battle like rutting stags” and that is supported (not contradicted) by the Loughborouh analysis of media coverage:
“This section examines which individuals, organisations and institutions received most media coverage…….
Key findings
Seven of the top ten people and half of all people in the top thirty are Conservative politicians. In all, they account for 73% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty.
The most frequently reported Labour politician was Jeremy Corbyn (7th). Only ten Labour politicians made the top thirty. They account for 15% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty.
Only two representatives from other UK political parties made the list: Nigel Farage (4th) and Nicola Sturgeon (16th).
No representative of the Liberal Democrats made the top thirty”
Labour made a decision to run it's own 'Labour In' campaign because, based on its' bad experience of the Scottish Independence vote, it did not want to be 'tainted' in the minds of it's supporters by working together with Cameron and other 'Remain' Tories.
Also, as I've posted more recently, I think Corbyn's own account of being 70 - 75% in favour of the EU in an interview during the 2016 referendum in the link below made him more likely to to be able to win over wavering Leave/Remain Labour voters. In the 2016 referendum and now a politician who says they have reservations about the EU but nonetheless says that they believe that ordinary people would be better off if the UK remains an EU member was and is in a better position to win over the many millions who voted for and still support Brexit than any unalloyed europhile from the PLP.
Quite. But that's not the point. It isn't what I'm suggesting either.
UKIP's detestable rise was fueled by uncontrolled immigration. Deny it, intellectualize it, blame it on right wing press or bluff it away, it really cant be denied.
None of the experts on this thread have explained why Labour heartlands voted to leave. Do you think northern industrial town Labour voters were influenced by right wing press? Really? Then if you do perhaps you are wrong.
Partially The Sun, partially inherited bigotry unreconstructed by actual exposure to foreigners, partially racist and deceitful Facebook advertising, but mostly the not absurd notion that the state has let them down big time and ruined their lives
Really? From your privileged London throne you think Labour voting northern industrial unemployed workers are sucked in by the Scum Newspaper? Dream on with your deluded views. Which state let them down? The current conservative twats or their supposed natural soul mates, the Labour party? Labour who ignored their needs for the sake of a few hundred thousand votes. Who let them down? Could it be Bliar and Brown who were supposed to look after their interests or the hated tories who, lets face it, have been their traditional foe since they first started voting? Who was it Leuth? Clue. They never voted Tory. Blame Facewank, advertising, a paper/press they have never trusted and a media they never read or believed, or could it possibly, maybe, incredibly, be what they see on their streets and their daily experiences? Something so far removed from your idealogical ivory tower you simply cant conceive it?
You've hit several nails on the head there for it wasn't simply immigration but 30 years of neoliberal policies administered by both the blue and red parties which saw GDP climb and climb and yet ordinary wages have stagnated. The increase in productivity and GDP since the 1980s mainly went to capital as well as cheaper price competition for consumers.
There are many works written this year about ten years since the crash with Tooze having written a compelling case - he has a 1/2 hour piece on youtube. Private losses at banks were socialised to save the banking system - had the pleasure of an evening with Alistair Darling lately as he promoted his own book. And yet the Blue party (with Lib Dem support) decreed that everybody must pay to reduce the deficit caused by lost taxes, a recession and the banking rescue costs. So billions or perhaps trillions went to banks but Osbourne cut everywhere and by his own admission allowed the EU to become the scapegoat. What's coming out now about cuts in universal credit down to Osbourne is scandalous!
Six years of austerity with disproportionate cuts in the regions and only a 1% rise in NHS budgets took its toll. Juxtapose that with a massive cut to corporation tax together with uber low interest rates and we see that capital has been the winner.
And this is what differentiates Corbyn and McDonnell from Blair, Campbell and Mandelson. One can call them populists but unlike Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain they aren't digging around with 20% support in the polls. Incidentally, Macron and REM, those neoliberal third way protagonists who mimic new Labour, are also kicking around at 20% support in France.
Labour put out their manifesto last year - it was part of a repositioning which won back old members as well as new and clearly won votes for policies that are attractive to those same people abandoned by Blair and New Labour. A commitment to nationalise rail travel and utilities as well as reverse corporation tax cuts and abandon PFI are but three policies which strike a chord. Every sector of government and the economy was addressed and policies were welcomed. But they are nowhere near as sure footed as they should be - the latest example being contradictions between Starmer and Corbyn.
This new alt-right phenomenon is cropping up all over western democracies so let us be clear that immigration has been a major part of the Italian and German political debate as up to 1M refugees and economic migrants attempt to cross the Med every year. Ironic given the origins of that crisis go back to neoliberal driven regime change in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan together with the Syrian civil war.
Thus many will agree with the symptoms and causes of where we are but what is the appropriate response? That's the challenge of our times and one upon which Blair, Cable and many others have forfeited the right to be taken seriously. Supporting the invasion of Iraq for a terrorist attack backed by Saudi elements and others or supporting austerity as a response to the biggest crash since 1930 kinda rules you out.
Austerity, failure to regulate and endless privatisation together with financialisation of housing and higher education have all contributed to wealth disparity unknown in our lifetimes together with the disenfranchisement which you and others address.
In short, the left which claim to represent ordinary people and working class interests have to become more innovative and more popular, bordering on populist if they are to win because the liberals have cards marked and the centre right have failed. The alternative is the disruptive Alt-right. At least the upside is that their surge has provoked a response. At the same time nationalism in Barcelona and Rome threatens the fabric of the entire setup.
Your the cultist, Henry. You'd rather focus on Corbyn than the people who are to blame for this complete mess! Says all that needs saying.
Much as Cameron, May, Johnson, Farage etc etc are to blame for this mess so, in part, is Corbyn and one day you will wake up and realise that.
A life long anti-EUer who did next to nothing in the referendum despite Remain being party policy and who now constantly contradicts the current labour party position. He keeps doing it and Starmer has to be wheeled out again to explain away the inconsistencies.
He gives an interview to a German paper (Meire style media work there) but is almost invisible in the UK debate, preferring to talk about Chile on the day of the People's March. Why? Because he's a leaver but he doesn't want to say that.
You're being played, you've always been played and I think the reason you are trying to make this all about me (there are lots of others on here and elsewhere saying the same thing but you only focus on me and try to make it personal) is that deep down you are starting to realise that. You're lashing out at me but really you know what I and many others are saying might just be closer to the truth than you want to admit.
He did do this - whether it's next to nothing I don't know, but it's pretty clear.
I agree he's been as useful as a chocolate fireguard since the referendum, and I'd like to see the back of him as Labour leader, but I cannot foresee a day when I will wake up and blame him for appeasing the right wing of the Tory party, running scared of a party of extreme nationalists and calling an ill thought out referendum. At least not until someone can point out to me when where that happened...
I know a few people who worked for Britain Stronger In, and they hated Corbyn and Milne, they refused to keep to the days message, and would often contradict that days message, they vetoed sharing the parties databases which would have helped in northern seats with targeted messages. His campaigning was half arsed, and he refused to work with the other parties on joint campaigns and stopped the Labour In campaign having additional spend.
I know a few people who worked for Britain Stronger In, and they hated Corbyn and Milne, they refused to keep to the days message, and would often contradict that days message, they vetoed sharing the parties databases which would have helped in northern seats with targeted messages. His campaigning was half arsed, and he refused to work with the other parties on joint campaigns and stopped the Labour In campaign having additional spend.
Far from being an extreme anything, it seems like he held a nuanced position, which is of course something that the discourse won't stand for these days
Any particular reason why this is directed to me @A-R-T-H-U-R ? Is it because I live abroad? Just wondered as don't recall saying anything about immigration on here for a long while. Found article interesting though.
Comments
Hang on, didn't you support a people's vote and go a march calling for that a few weeks ago?
Nothing I have said has contradicted itself, unless you want to look at it too simply. I forgive you for doing it that way Henry.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-historians-will-not-believe-sheer-ignorance-of-brexit-supporters-1.3695347
My interpretation of that stance is that they have a thought-through solution to all of the issues and that they anticipated the current mess the UK is in. Brexit voters in that state of mind in my view should have a realistic answer to every question that arises from this whole process and into the next fifty years of the UK existence.
Otherwise what?
Do brexit voters say they didn't know what they were voting for after all?
Until brexit voters start to ask themselves 'what on earth was I thinking?' rather than saying to others they knew what they were doing, then positions won't shift. A peoples vote and/or another referendum is very likely to be as divisive as the last one.
There is no sign that brexit voters are able to bring themselves to admit that actually they don't have a clue, so the UK trundles on...reminds me of that old song 'Three Wheels On My Wagon', brexit voters still feel that a mile up the road there's a hidden cave and they can watch those Cherokees go galloping by.
I am prepared to shift from remain to leave if I could be persuaded.
I have asked on this thread periodically what the good thing about brexit is, and how exactly will it work, I am open to persuasion (admittedly it would be a tough call in my case), but one of the saddest aspects of this is that brexit voters are unable to explain any benefits. They often frame things in what can be got rid of, laws, immigrants, burgundy passports, subscription to the EU and so on (they might frame that stuff as a benefit), but they are unable to frame a positive picture of the future that stands up to any reasoned examination.
So the brexit fall back position is 'we'll have to wait and see', and with that they stalk off to the outhouse with their roll up, bog paper and newspaper to await developments.
We have just received a big government order to create a post Brexit thing (can't go into any detail for confidentially reasons) which will create new jobs and would have gone to a different European country pre-Brexit. I imagine there is a lot of that happening.
In general I think the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is if we leave or if we do not. As you know economics is not the reason I voted Brexit.
Trumpian talk once again.
A life long anti-EUer who did next to nothing in the referendum despite Remain being party policy and who now constantly contradicts the current labour party position. He keeps doing it and Starmer has to be wheeled out again to explain away the inconsistencies.
He gives an interview to a German paper (Meire style media work there) but is almost invisible in the UK debate, preferring to talk about Chile on the day of the People's March. Why? Because he's a leaver but he doesn't want to say that.
You're being played, you've always been played and I think the reason you are trying to make this all about me (there are lots of others on here and elsewhere saying the same thing but you only focus on me and try to make it personal) is that deep down you are starting to realise that. You're lashing out at me but really you know what I and many others are saying might just be closer to the truth than you want to admit.
So, although it's been posted before, it seems necessary to repeat the actual evidence from the time of the 2016 referendum:
Jeremy Corbyn and the EU Referendum
Angela Eagle 16.41 13th June 2016:
“Jeremy [Corbyn] is up and down the country, pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped. We are doing our best, but if we are not reported, it is very difficult. This whole thing is about Tory big beasts having a battle like rutting stags, but it’s far more important, this vote, than any of that”.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/13/eu-referendum-live-labour-remain-campaign-final-10-days-vote?page=with:block-575ed486e4b0aa348f1cc33f#liveblog-navigation
Lord Ashcroft Polls
The only substantial analysis of how those that voted for each party in the 2015 General Election then cast their vote in the EU Referendum (by Lord Ashcroft Polls – link below) suggests that Labour supporters voted 63% for Remain - only just behind the 64% of SNP supporters who voted Remain in Scotland.
However, what was hailed as a triumph for the SNP in Scotland has been presented as a failure by Labour in the UK as a whole – and in particular a personal failure by Corbyn; while no mention is made of the role of the official ‘leader’ of the ‘Labour In’ campaign – Alan Johnson MP.
“A majority of those who backed the Conservative in 2015 voted to leave the EU (58%), as did more than 19 out of 20 UKIP supporters. Nearly two thirds of Labour and SNP voters (63% and 64%), seven in ten Liberal Democrats and three quarters of Greens, voted to remain”.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
Media coverage of the EU Referendum (report 5) 27th June 2016
Loughborough University Centre for Research in Communication and Culture
Table 2.1: Top thirty media appearances (6 May – 22 June)
Key findings:
“The most frequently reported Labour politician was Jeremy Corbyn (7th) [123 appearances]. Only ten Labour politicians made the top thirty. They account for 15% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty”.
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
At this stage not one of us should have to ask that question.
Not sure what the Ashcroft polls say about Corbyn other than that he was a failure but Alan Johnson lead the Labour in campaign. So 63% of labour supporters voted remain. So Corbyn has a mandate to support remain then. But he doesn't.
The Loughborough research contradicts what you quoted Angela Eagle as saying.
Corbyn was Labour Leader so of course he would or should get more appearances in the media than other labour policiticians. What that doesn't say is what did those media appearances cover? What did he say? Did he have any impact.
My recollection was that Corbyn and Labour in general were very low key in the campaign and Corbyn made some half hearted announcements about working time directives and working conditions near the end of the campaign but very little else.
But Angela Eagle’s quote and the Loughborough research, which you wrongly say contradicts what Angela Eagle said, go some way to explaining your ‘recollection’.
Angela Eagle said “if we are not reported, it is very difficult. This whole thing is about Tory big beasts having a battle like rutting stags” and that is supported (not contradicted) by the Loughborouh analysis of media coverage:
“This section examines which individuals, organisations and institutions received most media coverage…….
Key findings
Seven of the top ten people and half of all people in the top thirty are Conservative politicians. In all, they account for 73% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty.
The most frequently reported Labour politician was Jeremy Corbyn (7th). Only ten Labour politicians made the top thirty. They account for 15% of the total number of appearances in the top thirty.
Only two representatives from other UK political parties made the list: Nigel Farage (4th) and Nicola Sturgeon (16th).
No representative of the Liberal Democrats made the top thirty”
https://blog.lboro.ac.uk/crcc/eu-referendum/uk-news-coverage-2016-eu-referendum-report-5-6-may-22-june-2016/
Labour made a decision to run it's own 'Labour In' campaign because, based on its' bad experience of the Scottish Independence vote, it did not want to be 'tainted' in the minds of it's supporters by working together with Cameron and other 'Remain' Tories.
Also, as I've posted more recently, I think Corbyn's own account of being 70 - 75% in favour of the EU in an interview during the 2016 referendum in the link below made him more likely to to be able to win over wavering Leave/Remain Labour voters. In the 2016 referendum and now a politician who says they have reservations about the EU but nonetheless says that they believe that ordinary people would be better off if the UK remains an EU member was and is in a better position to win over the many millions who voted for and still support Brexit than any unalloyed europhile from the PLP.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36506163/corbyn-i-m-seven-out-of-10-on-eu
There are many works written this year about ten years since the crash with Tooze having written a compelling case - he has a 1/2 hour piece on youtube. Private losses at banks were socialised to save the banking system - had the pleasure of an evening with Alistair Darling lately as he promoted his own book. And yet the Blue party (with Lib Dem support) decreed that everybody must pay to reduce the deficit caused by lost taxes, a recession and the banking rescue costs. So billions or perhaps trillions went to banks but Osbourne cut everywhere and by his own admission allowed the EU to become the scapegoat. What's coming out now about cuts in universal credit down to Osbourne is scandalous!
Six years of austerity with disproportionate cuts in the regions and only a 1% rise in NHS budgets took its toll. Juxtapose that with a massive cut to corporation tax together with uber low interest rates and we see that capital has been the winner.
And this is what differentiates Corbyn and McDonnell from Blair, Campbell and Mandelson. One can call them populists but unlike Melenchon in France and Podemos in Spain they aren't digging around with 20% support in the polls. Incidentally, Macron and REM, those neoliberal third way protagonists who mimic new Labour, are also kicking around at 20% support in France.
Labour put out their manifesto last year - it was part of a repositioning which won back old members as well as new and clearly won votes for policies that are attractive to those same people abandoned by Blair and New Labour. A commitment to nationalise rail travel and utilities as well as reverse corporation tax cuts and abandon PFI are but three policies which strike a chord. Every sector of government and the economy was addressed and policies were welcomed. But they are nowhere near as sure footed as they should be - the latest example being contradictions between Starmer and Corbyn.
This new alt-right phenomenon is cropping up all over western democracies so let us be clear that immigration has been a major part of the Italian and German political debate as up to 1M refugees and economic migrants attempt to cross the Med every year. Ironic given the origins of that crisis go back to neoliberal driven regime change in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan together with the Syrian civil war.
Thus many will agree with the symptoms and causes of where we are but what is the appropriate response? That's the challenge of our times and one upon which Blair, Cable and many others have forfeited the right to be taken seriously. Supporting the invasion of Iraq for a terrorist attack backed by Saudi elements and others or supporting austerity as a response to the biggest crash since 1930 kinda rules you out.
Austerity, failure to regulate and endless privatisation together with financialisation of housing and higher education have all contributed to wealth disparity unknown in our lifetimes together with the disenfranchisement which you and others address.
In short, the left which claim to represent ordinary people and working class interests have to become more innovative and more popular, bordering on populist if they are to win because the liberals have cards marked and the centre right have failed. The alternative is the disruptive Alt-right. At least the upside is that their surge has provoked a response. At the same time nationalism in Barcelona and Rome threatens the fabric of the entire setup.
http://jeremycorbyn.org.uk/articles/jeremy-corbyn-my-speech-on-the-labour-case-to-vote-remain-in-the-eu-in-south-yorkshire/
I agree he's been as useful as a chocolate fireguard since the referendum, and I'd like to see the back of him as Labour leader, but I cannot foresee a day when I will wake up and blame him for appeasing the right wing of the Tory party, running scared of a party of extreme nationalists and calling an ill thought out referendum. At least not until someone can point out to me when where that happened...
He’s an extreme Leaver, like his hero Tony Benn