Uncontrolled immigration? I thought To y Blair’s government was one of the few European governments to permit immediate free movement of the Eastern European states acceding to the EU which had two effects, 1) significant economic growth in the UK compared to other European countries who regulated immigration and 2) pockets of unintegrated Eastern European tradespeople who didn’t bring families but worked harder, more professionally and cheaper than the existing workforce.
If this is what you mean by uncontrolled immigration, I agree.
However I think many people voting to leave the EU, particularly those from non-urban areas also voted to leave on the understanding that not only the Europeans would be restricted in free movement to the UK but also those from non-EU, in particular anyone Muslim where the prevailing view seemed to be that the closed and insular society favoured by many Imam developed a total lack of British identity and harboured terrorist cells.
Whether there are any serious any grounds to either argument is open to question, but I agree the perception that immigration has been uncontrolled and the increase in population cells that do not want or cannot integrate with those already present has been a massive influence on the vote, and unfortunately remains the most difficult aspect of running the country.
Do we need economic growth? If so we need to attract immigrant talent and labour.
If we look to grow by productivity improvement (where the UK is very weak) then we need to understand why we are so poor in this area.
Three things jump to mind:
1) we work too long hours in the main. Look at the 4 day week initiatives. Working longer hours is not more productive
2) incentivise research and development and arts spend in the uk
3) encourage integration of immigrant populations (don’t know what exactly I’m thinking of here tbf)
Is society under strain because of the level of immigration over the last few decades, yes. Has it been uncontrolled, no. Should there have, and should there be more support, yes.
Population and economic growth deliver benefits but they stretch existing resources (NHS, schools) while they add value (pays for our ridiculously unfunded state pension).
Politicians have known what they are doing on this for a long time and to say it is uncontrolled is not right. Totally agree it’s been badly managed.
Do you seriously think voters in urban Labour heartlands considered 'significant economic growth' 'increased net tax income', even if they thought it was true? Or do you think they voted leave for more immediate effects in their street/schools/towns?
And you can declare that immigration wasnt uncontrolled, but that just flies in the face of all evidence, from Campbell, Mandelson and The Guardian's own writing.
From the first year in office, the issue had hit the Labour government like a whirlwind. In 1997 net migration had been 48,000, but it rose extremely rapidly over the next 12 months, almost trebling to 140,000 in 1998. It was never to fall below 100,000 again.
Ministers and officials from that era recall in painful detail the apparently impossible task of dealing with the surge in asylum applications, as refugees fled to Britain. Almost every day, newspaper headlines would sneer at chaos in Whitehall as the Immigration and Nationality Directorate, later described as dysfunctional by ministers, struggled to cope.
Charles Clarke, who took over as home secretary in 2004, says that from Labour’s first days in office, the system for assessing applications for citizenship, residency and asylum claims was a mess. “We developed a massive backlog, particularly on asylum where we had cases waiting literally five years to be solved,” Clarke says. “That was the core problem that had built up behind an unmanageable set of issues. It was a complete nightmare and led to a sense of complete ungovernability of the whole system and that I think has undermined confidence in it.”
Yeah I know but while the numbers of people arriving was in excess of expectations it was also deliberate.
A bad mistake perhaps as I do agree that many of the tradespeople I know voted for leave as a direct result of their livelihoods being threatened or changed by European migrants and also where they lived changing. The latter more so from non-European migrants.
Deliberate Neil? Did we change a law or guidelines allowing more leniency? Did the Tories close these doors when Cameron was elected? No. The global Middle East crisis and new EU members changed the mix.
When do Dave Milliband and Jo Johnson announce the new centralist pro-remain party?
One nation under a groove.
Jo Johnson, centrist? Shall we examine his voting record?
Whooosh
The fact that I was seriously longing for said party shows that the bottom of the barrel has finally been reached
Ok let's play and annoy the Corbyn cultists.
Dan Jarvis - Minister of Defence
Your the cultish Henry - you throw darts at Corbyn's picture before you go to bed - admit it. You make me laugh more than annoy, your attempts are so feeble. It was annoying when you blamed him for a few things, but I think there isn't anything you haven't blamed him for now
Your not very good at pretending your not getting wound up @MuttleyCAFC
It's ok, lots of people used to believe in a kind man with a white beard bringing happiness but then they realised father Christmas wasn't real either.
If you say so. By the way, there are a couple of threads you might have missed - The Sky Q box one. Corbyn is to blame for poor reception in certain areas, and the Dynasties one, Corbyn wound up the chimps and got them fighting each other! Saves you some time - I hope you appreciate it! Make the most of it, I can't be arsed to help you any more!
Can’t Corbynites just admit they’ve been had on this, you fell for the bollocks that there was a long game, that he was going to become a hero of remain. Instead he’s desperate for the hardest possible leave, with the most possible damage, so he and Milne can build their vision of socialism in one land.
Well, if there is a long game, it hasn't finished yet.:) Why does he have to be the hero of remain by the way? I am a remainer, but the holier than thou attitude of many remainers hasn't done our side of the argument much good. The fact is, the Germans and to a lesser extent, the French rule the EU and the EU is undemocratic (so are we by the way). All these posts saying how great it is - this is the EU who forced needless austerity on nations, well it is almost as bad as the Leave lies!
The fact is, the EU is flawed, but we are too intertwined to leave in the way we are doing. It is going to make us all poorer and who wants to vote for that? Well actually, some put having control over your own laws above that. You have to respect their position, even though it has to be better to try and change the EU from within rather than jump off a cliff! And some just want to get the foreigners out , which is alright to do now - it isn't racist, Johnson and Gove said so!
What we had in the referendum was a competition of lies, and to an extent, nothing has changed.
Quite. But that's not the point. It isn't what I'm suggesting either.
UKIP's detestable rise was fueled by uncontrolled immigration. Deny it, intellectualize it, blame it on right wing press or bluff it away, it really cant be denied.
None of the experts on this thread have explained why Labour heartlands voted to leave. Do you think northern industrial town Labour voters were influenced by right wing press? Really? Then if you do perhaps you are wrong.
Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester all voted Remain 😉
Quite. But that's not the point. It isn't what I'm suggesting either.
UKIP's detestable rise was fueled by uncontrolled immigration. Deny it, intellectualize it, blame it on right wing press or bluff it away, it really cant be denied.
None of the experts on this thread have explained why Labour heartlands voted to leave. Do you think northern industrial town Labour voters were influenced by right wing press? Really? Then if you do perhaps you are wrong.
Leeds, Liverpool and Manchester all voted Remain 😉
Oh well, that sorted it all out then! Cheers. ;-) These big cities didn't have enough remainers to swing the vote, and the reason wasn't Cameron.
By Tom Whitehead, Home Affairs Editor6:42PM BST 23 Oct 2009 The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons.
Mr Neather was a speech writer who worked in Downing Street for Tony Blair and in the Home Office for Jack Straw and David Blunkett, in the early 2000s.
Well, if there is a long game, it hasn't finished yet.:) Why does he have to be the hero of remain by the way? I am a remainer, but the holier than thou attitude of many remainers hasn't done our side of the argument much good. The fact is, the Germans and to a lesser extent, the French rule the EU and the EU is undemocratic (so are we by the way). All these posts saying how great it is - this is the EU who forced needless austerity on nations, well it is almost as bad as the Leave lies!
The fact is, the EU is flawed, but we are too intertwined to leave in the way we are doing. It is going to make us all poorer and who wants to vote for that? Well actually, some put having control over your own laws above that. You have to respect their position, even though it has to be better to try and change the EU from within rather than jump off a cliff! And some just want to get the foreigners out , which is alright to do now - it isn't racist, Johnson and Gove said so!
What we had in the referendum was a competition of lies, and to an extent, nothing has changed.
I agree with much of what you say Muttley. The Leave vote was definitely a coalition of various outlooks. But I have come to understand that there is a deep cultural divide in our country which the Referendum did not create, but rather revealed. There are still millions of people who have no political representatives and who are not spoken for by mainstream politicians. If Brexit had not happened it would have taken another form, perhaps a big break through by UKIP. I am not opposed to another referendum by the way if there is sufficient support from the people in general. However, it would not heal the division but exacerbate it and politics will come to reflect that division whatever the outcome.
What some on here have to get is that if a second referendum is achieved in the way they want it, it is more likely to end the same way as the first. People are worried about being worse off but are also very disaffected. Calling them idiots is not the way. But these same people long for a new neo-liberal party of the middle, which shows how out of touch they are with the way the world is going!
As for the nonsense from Tom Whitehead, the reason we have had increases in migrants is that the economy has encouraged it. EU migrants have been falling since Brexit and non-EU migrants have been rising! Nobody seems to make any effort to explain that!
Can’t Corbynites just admit they’ve been had on this, you fell for the bollocks that there was a long game, that he was going to become a hero of remain. Instead he’s desperate for the hardest possible leave, with the most possible damage, so he and Milne can build their vision of socialism in one land.
Some have already and as things progress more will.
For me, brexit is the biggest crisis this country has faced in a generation at least... For some the biggest crisis they face is being able to put food on the table today, never mind whatever happens with brexit. Corbyn cares more about them than the Tories do, that's for sure. Corbyn is as bad as Rhys Mogg when it comes to brexit, but that is about it
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
What is one of the strongest cases for a referendum? I would say it could be that the deal the government has done and no deal at all were not what was promised to the people before the referendum. I think both leavers and remainers may be able to unite around that. But the deal the government has agreed - if they have agreed a deal - hasn't been announced yet. I don't think some ardent remainers understand the importance of that. We do have to wait and see what it is, and how the government approaches the next steps once we do. And then the reaction needs to be appropriate to that!
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Am I being wooshed or are you using a ridiculous dog whistle to blame migrants?
Only if you are so blind you cant see this whole shit show hasnt been in any way influenced by a decade of uncontrolled immigration.
Eight years of which have been under (effectively) Tory rule. As we keep telling you, it's a good thing for the economy, so maybe that's why they have left it as it is? Despite the EU (which this is all about) having rules in place that could stop it tomorrow. If people like yourself continue to use the language you do, it's no wonder the less well informed think that the situation is one of the EU's making, rather than the UK government, is it?
What is one of the strongest cases for a referendum? I would say it could be that the deal the government has done and no deal at all were not what was promised to the people before the referendum. I think both leavers and remainers may be able to unite around that. But the deal the government has agreed - if they have agreed a deal - hasn't been announced yet. I don't think some ardent remainers understand the importance of that. We do have to wait and see what it is, and how the government approaches the next steps once we do. And then the reaction needs to be appropriate to that!
I think you’re right, I think May will get her deal through cabinet - probably with a couple of resignations - but it will fail in Parliament, as carving off NI, even in a backstop scenario, is unacceptable. In that scenario we would be in pretty much uncharted territory.
I asked the question last week but I don’t think I got an answer (maybe because no one knows) but what is the actual mechanism for calling a new referendum? Can parliament include provisions for a new referendum as amendment to the bill that May will propose for her deal if the vote fails or can only a government call a referendum?
What is one of the strongest cases for a referendum? I would say it could be that the deal the government has done and no deal at all were not what was promised to the people before the referendum. I think both leavers and remainers may be able to unite around that. But the deal the government has agreed - if they have agreed a deal - hasn't been announced yet. I don't think some ardent remainers understand the importance of that. We do have to wait and see what it is, and how the government approaches the next steps once we do. And then the reaction needs to be appropriate to that!
I think you’re right, I think May will get her deal through cabinet - probably with a couple of resignations - but it will fail in Parliament, as carving off NI, even in a backstop scenario, is unacceptable. In that scenario we would be in pretty much uncharted territory.
I asked the question last week but I don’t think I got an answer (maybe because no one knows) but what is the actual mechanism for calling a new referendum? Can parliament include provisions for a new referendum as amendment to the bill that May will propose for her deal if the vote fails or can only a government call a referendum?
"... there is (as I have set out elsewhere) not enough time for all the necessary legislation to be passed and in place by next March.
There would have to be an extension of time.
The EU would probably agree to such an extension, as long as the withdrawal agreement was finalised.
But as it stands, no leading politician is in favour of a further referendum; the government and official opposition are against having one; and parliament is now away until September.
There could be a referendum, but there currently is no real prospect of one."
What some on here have to get is that if a second referendum is achieved in the way they want it, it is more likely to end the same way as the first. People are worried about being worse off but are also very disaffected. Calling them idiots is not the way. But these same people long for a new neo-liberal party of the middle, which shows how out of touch they are with the way the world is going!
As for the nonsense from Tom Whitehead, the reason we have had increases in migrants is that the economy has encouraged it. EU migrants have been falling since Brexit and non-EU migrants have been rising! Nobody seems to make any effort to explain that!
Fintan O'Toole on the ignorance of Brexit supporters, well worth a read
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
I would be surprised if Labour get their election before a referendum - perfectly right for them to try to get it though. But the dissenting pro remain Torries will back a referendum and last time I looked, Labour hadn't ruled it out. Sadly for some, this was always going to be a bit like fishing. A waiting game! There is a need for May to play the next card and to react appropriately to that. There are different scenarios how this can play out and the reaction to each will need to be different.
But Corbyn apparently has, despite official labour policy that all cards are on the table.
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
Corbyn has said that he doesn't think Brexit can be stopped - he may be proven wrong, he may not be. But I would prefer us go into these unpredicatble days in a less antagonistic way. I can't see the point having a second vote and Leave winning it again for similar reasons they did in the first vote!
Corbyn said it can't be stopped, there was no ambiguity to it. Meanwhile
What some on here have to get is that if a second referendum is achieved in the way they want it, it is more likely to end the same way as the first. People are worried about being worse off but are also very disaffected. Calling them idiots is not the way. But these same people long for a new neo-liberal party of the middle, which shows how out of touch they are with the way the world is going!
As for the nonsense from Tom Whitehead, the reason we have had increases in migrants is that the economy has encouraged it. EU migrants have been falling since Brexit and non-EU migrants have been rising! Nobody seems to make any effort to explain that!
Fintan O'Toole on the ignorance of Brexit supporters, well worth a read
Comments
Or do you think they voted leave for more immediate effects in their street/schools/towns?
Sorry, edited to authenticate what I say with supporting evidence from a Grauniad article.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story
Please read it.
From the first year in office, the issue had hit the Labour government like a whirlwind. In 1997 net migration had been 48,000, but it rose extremely rapidly over the next 12 months, almost trebling to 140,000 in 1998. It was never to fall below 100,000 again.
Ministers and officials from that era recall in painful detail the apparently impossible task of dealing with the surge in asylum applications, as refugees fled to Britain. Almost every day, newspaper headlines would sneer at chaos in Whitehall as the Immigration and Nationality Directorate, later described as dysfunctional by ministers, struggled to cope.
Charles Clarke, who took over as home secretary in 2004, says that from Labour’s first days in office, the system for assessing applications for citizenship, residency and asylum claims was a mess. “We developed a massive backlog, particularly on asylum where we had cases waiting literally five years to be solved,” Clarke says. “That was the core problem that had built up behind an unmanageable set of issues. It was a complete nightmare and led to a sense of complete ungovernability of the whole system and that I think has undermined confidence in it.”
A bad mistake perhaps as I do agree that many of the tradespeople I know voted for leave as a direct result of their livelihoods being threatened or changed by European migrants and also where they lived changing. The latter more so from non-European migrants.
The fact is, the EU is flawed, but we are too intertwined to leave in the way we are doing. It is going to make us all poorer and who wants to vote for that? Well actually, some put having control over your own laws above that. You have to respect their position, even though it has to be better to try and change the EU from within rather than jump off a cliff! And some just want to get the foreigners out , which is alright to do now - it isn't racist, Johnson and Gove said so!
What we had in the referendum was a competition of lies, and to an extent, nothing has changed.
Cheers. ;-)
These big cities didn't have enough remainers to swing the vote, and the reason wasn't Cameron.
The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons.
Mr Neather was a speech writer who worked in Downing Street for Tony Blair and in the Home Office for Jack Straw and David Blunkett, in the early 2000s.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html
If Brexit had not happened it would have taken another form, perhaps a big break through by UKIP.
I am not opposed to another referendum by the way if there is sufficient support from the people in general. However, it would not heal the division but exacerbate it and politics will come to reflect that division whatever the outcome.
As for the nonsense from Tom Whitehead, the reason we have had increases in migrants is that the economy has encouraged it. EU migrants have been falling since Brexit and non-EU migrants have been rising! Nobody seems to make any effort to explain that!
But others are good at cognitive dissonance
Wouldn’t be the first time Corbyn completely contradicted official labour policy (remember the trident debacle?) voted for by the members, whilst he’s been leader. But apparently he’s the most democratic leader in Europe according to some.
I asked the question last week but I don’t think I got an answer (maybe because no one knows) but what is the actual mechanism for calling a new referendum? Can parliament include provisions for a new referendum as amendment to the bill that May will propose for her deal if the vote fails or can only a government call a referendum?
There would have to be an extension of time.
The EU would probably agree to such an extension, as long as the withdrawal agreement was finalised.
But as it stands, no leading politician is in favour of a further referendum; the government and official opposition are against having one; and parliament is now away until September.
There could be a referendum, but there currently is no real prospect of one."
jackofkent.com/2018/07/the-current-likelihood-of-various-brexit-outcomes/
Admittedly it's three years since I first asked you, so a few more days won't hurt.