There's considerable breathing space between 'can do no wrong' and 'as bad as Boris' tbf
Like, Corbyn does have to make a move at some point soon, but it has to be as argument-proof as possible. Don't you think Labour are working out how and when to switch strategy every single day?
No I don’t. They want an election, full stop. And I mean Corbyn and McDonnell here.
They are fully aware that most of their support wants the party to push for a second referendum but they continue to ignore this in order to achieve their personal aims.
The opposition want an election - what a surprise! If there are votes of no confidence - it leads to an election, if the Tories change leader, it leads to a referendum. A lot of what will happen will be a reaction to events and what May does and is outside of the Labour party's control.
"The creatures outside looked from Rees Mogg to Corbyn, and from Corbyn to Rees Mogg and from Rees Mogg to Corbyn again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
One of these men is promising to nationalise the rail network, and the other one would privatise your family if he could get away with it
but both ride a wave of populism and criticism of either get vitriol shot their way from their fanatics.
The opposition want an election - what a surprise! If there are votes of no confidence - it leads to an election, if the Tories change leader, it leads to a referendum. A lot of what will happen will be a reaction to events and what May does and is outside of the Labour party's control.
Of course any opposition want an election - but surely not achieving that by playing silly buggers with something as fundamentally important as Brexit.
That's tactics to force an election, and that is not what's best for the country right now.
Yeah exactly. Corbyn is obviously stalling for time imo - not remotely comparable to Johnson's side-switching, provocative shenanigans
LMAO how much more time does he need? The government need?
Brexit is a disaster.
Both sides see it as an opportunity to make a giant stamp on british politics for the next 50 years, like a blank cheque to rewrite much of the way politics and everything in this country works, both sides have absolutely no idea how to do it, but are terrified of the other getting the opportunity to do so.
The best interests of the country is to stop this disaster, both leaders are unwilling to do so. Both utter shitstains for not putting the country above their politics.
It doesn't matter what you support - they might believe a Labour government is best for the country - you may be a Labour supporter who doesn't. I do understand the importance of thwarting Brexit, but we don't know how the government are going to try and put this through, and how they do it will determine what happens next. We have to wait and see as frustrating as that is.
I think their position is clear enough. they would prefer an election but are open to a referendum if that isn't likely or possible.
"The creatures outside looked from Rees Mogg to Corbyn, and from Corbyn to Rees Mogg and from Rees Mogg to Corbyn again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
One of these men is promising to nationalise the rail network, and the other one would privatise your family if he could get away with it
but both ride a wave of populism and criticism of either get vitriol shot their way from their fanatics.
Two sides of the same coin.
You're right to use the term "populist" here because that's what both are @kentaddick
"The creatures outside looked from Rees Mogg to Corbyn, and from Corbyn to Rees Mogg and from Rees Mogg to Corbyn again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
One of these men is promising to nationalise the rail network, and the other one would privatise your family if he could get away with it
but both ride a wave of populism and criticism of either get vitriol shot their way from their fanatics.
Two sides of the same coin.
You're right to use the term "populist" here because that's what both are @kentaddick
Brexit still remains a Tory lead mess by far btw.
cameron took a shit, the tories are saying "What a beautiful shit, let us mould this shit to make britain into a giant castle of shit, it might be made of shit, but its british and it will make us better than not being a giant shit castle" whilst furiously patting the shit together to try and make some kind of structure, whilst corbyn is going "hmmm, should we clean up this shit? or make a wonderful workers paradise made of shit? A castle clearly wont work made of shit.. but maybe something else can be made of this shit".
The answer : nothing can be made from shit, its shit, it will just all end up a shitty mess, the only way is to clean up the shit and try and pretend that it never happened.
But a lot of people voted for that shit! I agree it is shit, but Golf, Chippy and Southbank to name but three don't seem to have changed their minds. They might be wrong,in your eyes and my eyes, but we can't just ignore them and by them I mean the millions not the three!
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.
A lol from @leuth ... why don’t you explain why you don’t see this as a power grab?
Corbyn is the Messiah so any criticism is treated with disdain.
The only way to resolve this is either another referendum or we crash out - an election would be meaningless and certainly not decisive in terms of the way forward on Brexit. Both main parties are wedded to this 'will of the people' even though the 'will' of said people has probably changed sufficiently to have a narrow vote to remain. Nobody, not even Southbank I would think, voted for a Brexit without any deal whatsoever.
If Southbank did then perhaps he could explain the benefits of a no-deal Brexit. Oh no, wait a minute - I've asked that before and so has Prague on more than one occasion without any rational response.
But you dismiss a General Election as “not decisive in terms of the way forward on Brexit” but then seem to concede that a 2nd referendum may also not be ‘decisive’ when you say “the 'will' of [the] people has probably changed sufficiently to have a narrow vote to remain”
However, even that ‘probability’ is relatively recent, very narrow and has proved very volatile since the 2016 referendum (as shown by the poll results published by ‘What UK Thinks’ - that I’ve posted before), nor does it factor in that that narrow opinion poll lead is occurring when there is currently no campaigning in progress, or how people might react to effectively being asked to ‘try again’.
There is also the matter of the question(s) for a 2nd referendum . I don’t think there would be agreement for another straightforward binary ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ choice – particularly if there is an agreed or virtually complete ‘divorce deal’ with the EU on the table. Plus, of course, others will argue that there is a 'better' divorce deal to be done.
So the referendum would probably need to have at least 3 choices (and arguably more); 1. A ‘divorce deal’ 2. Leave the EU without a deal, or 3. Remain in the EU as the UK currently is. Even with some sort of voting preference/transferable vote system, given the closeness of opinion, that seems a recipe for continued division and confusion rather than a resolution of where we are now.
A General Election may also not prove to be a panacea but I think it provides a better forum for a wider debate of the options and for the parties to be put on the spot regarding their solutions to the situation we’re in now than another referendum would, and it could give legitimacy to the EU policies of whichever party wins (or even of whatever coalition might emerge from a close outcome).
What a strange world we find ourselves in - the leader of the Tory party looking to take us out when she is a remainer, and the leader of the Labour Party being told by his membership to remain when his natural inclination is to leave.
"The rush to notify under Article 50, setting the ticking clock before there was any consensus on a UK negotiating position or any contingency planning, is one of the most stupid decisions in political history".
But surely only the 2nd (highlighted) part is true. Article 50 was triggered on March 29th 2017 over 9 months after the June 23rd 2016 referendum - so not exactly a 'rush'.
The failure to do the 2nd part before triggering Article 50 was due to the same Tory divisions that are causing the chaos we're in now, and so is unlikely to have been sorted no matter how long they delayed triggering Article 50.
"The rush to notify under Article 50, setting the ticking clock before there was any consensus on a UK negotiating position or any contingency planning, is one of the most stupid decisions in political history".
But surely only the 2nd (highlighted) part is true. Article 50 was triggered on March 29th 2017 over 9 months after the June 23rd 2016 referendum - so not exactly a 'rush'.
The failure to do the 2nd part before triggering Article 50 was due to the same Tory divisions that are causing the chaos we're in now, and so is unlikely to have been sorted no matter how long they delayed triggering Article 50.
There was absolutely no need to trigger Article 50 at the time, hence use of the word ‘rush’.
It was, and is, one of the biggest political mistakes of recent times.
"The rush to notify under Article 50, setting the ticking clock before there was any consensus on a UK negotiating position or any contingency planning, is one of the most stupid decisions in political history".
But surely only the 2nd (highlighted) part is true. Article 50 was triggered on March 29th 2017 over 9 months after the June 23rd 2016 referendum - so not exactly a 'rush'.
The failure to do the 2nd part before triggering Article 50 was due to the same Tory divisions that are causing the chaos we're in now, and so is unlikely to have been sorted no matter how long they delayed triggering Article 50.
Took nearly two years after the notification to get a negotiating paper together at Chequers, instead we had half arsed speeches which boxed Britain into a corner after the notification.
The opposition want an election - what a surprise! If there are votes of no confidence - it leads to an election, if the Tories change leader, it leads to a referendum. A lot of what will happen will be a reaction to events and what May does and is outside of the Labour party's control.
Of course any opposition want an election - but surely not achieving that by playing silly buggers with something as fundamentally important as Brexit.
That's tactics to force an election, and that is not what's best for the country right now.
Naturally the opposition want an election.
The fundamental issue is that May is now being squeezed for support by the ERG as well as Jo Johnson along with the Tory remainers. Why would Corbyn and McDonnell rush to support May right now? Polls on agreeing / regretting the 2016 result have shifted over the last 12 months, especially since Chequers was released.
The real question is whether the ERG, DUP and Tory Remainers will support whatever May brings back from M.Barnier, and today there is news that the text is nearly ready. Those still arguing for a time limited backstop re. Ireland are simply failing to understand the EU27 position and this is the key element which splits the Tories.
Whilst many support a People's vote as a way out of this mess and the argument is becoming more heated every day, May and her Cabinet will be doing everything they can to take a bill through Parliament that approves her deal. But let us not forget that May and her Cabinet are in power because of the support of a coalition which is fundamentally split on Brexit.
When the Brexit deal is presented, those in favour of a second referendum will surely table an amendment... And that's when we will see which way the Labour leadership will come down. And whether they can carry the vast majority of their 255 MPs?
The only way that Brexit can be stopped now is if May fails to secure support for her deal with Barnier. This then leads to a potential "no deal" which Parliament will not support so MPs either abort the whole thing or they put the question back to the people. And no matter how many different people look to criticise Corbyn or misinterpret the Labour composite resolution, that is precisely what Corbyn, McDonnell, Starmer et al have been playing for all along.
The irony is that the ball has been in May's court just as it has been all year. That some leading players in Labour believe that Brexit cannot be stopped is their view and one with which many concurred before Chequers came out. The people who can actually bring proceedings to a halt are actually the Tory remainers such as Jo Johnson and the cross party group of around 100 MPs. Not long to go until we see how this plays out.
Indeed. Though those immigrants have by and large supplemented the economy, and the largest concentration of UKIP voters were in areas with the lowest immigration. There has been a lot of wrong building up to the fecal explosion we see before our eyes now
Comments
They are fully aware that most of their support wants the party to push for a second referendum but they continue to ignore this in order to achieve their personal aims.
Two sides of the same coin.
That's tactics to force an election, and that is not what's best for the country right now.
Brexit is a disaster.
Both sides see it as an opportunity to make a giant stamp on british politics for the next 50 years, like a blank cheque to rewrite much of the way politics and everything in this country works, both sides have absolutely no idea how to do it, but are terrified of the other getting the opportunity to do so.
The best interests of the country is to stop this disaster, both leaders are unwilling to do so. Both utter shitstains for not putting the country above their politics.
P.S. I am a Labour supporter btw.
I think their position is clear enough. they would prefer an election but are open to a referendum if that isn't likely or possible.
Brexit still remains a Tory lead mess by far btw.
The Callaghan one, Blair/Brown one or the Corbyn one?
The answer : nothing can be made from shit, its shit, it will just all end up a shitty mess, the only way is to clean up the shit and try and pretend that it never happened.
However, even that ‘probability’ is relatively recent, very narrow and has proved very volatile since the 2016 referendum (as shown by the poll results published by ‘What UK Thinks’ - that I’ve posted before), nor does it factor in that that narrow opinion poll lead is occurring when there is currently no campaigning in progress, or how people might react to effectively being asked to ‘try again’.
There is also the matter of the question(s) for a 2nd referendum . I don’t think there would be agreement for another straightforward binary ‘Remain’ or ‘Leave’ choice – particularly if there is an agreed or virtually complete ‘divorce deal’ with the EU on the table. Plus, of course, others will argue that there is a 'better' divorce deal to be done.
So the referendum would probably need to have at least 3 choices (and arguably more); 1. A ‘divorce deal’ 2. Leave the EU without a deal, or 3. Remain in the EU as the UK currently is. Even with some sort of voting preference/transferable vote system, given the closeness of opinion, that seems a recipe for continued division and confusion rather than a resolution of where we are now.
A General Election may also not prove to be a panacea but I think it provides a better forum for a wider debate of the options and for the parties to be put on the spot regarding their solutions to the situation we’re in now than another referendum would, and it could give legitimacy to the EU policies of whichever party wins (or even of whatever coalition might emerge from a close outcome).
Yup
"The rush to notify under Article 50, setting the ticking clock before there was any consensus on a UK negotiating position or any contingency planning, is one of the most stupid decisions in political history".
But surely only the 2nd (highlighted) part is true. Article 50 was triggered on March 29th 2017 over 9 months after the June 23rd 2016 referendum - so not exactly a 'rush'.
The failure to do the 2nd part before triggering Article 50 was due to the same Tory divisions that are causing the chaos we're in now, and so is unlikely to have been sorted no matter how long they delayed triggering Article 50.
It was, and is, one of the biggest political mistakes of recent times.
Thank goodness the uncontrolled immigration engineered by Campbell and Mandelsson has no culpability at all.
In no way could they have been responsible for the rise of UKIP.
In a totally unrelated story
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7706034/roma-children-slovakian-migrants-sheffield-shock/
The fundamental issue is that May is now being squeezed for support by the ERG as well as Jo Johnson along with the Tory remainers. Why would Corbyn and McDonnell rush to support May right now? Polls on agreeing / regretting the 2016 result have shifted over the last 12 months, especially since Chequers was released.
The real question is whether the ERG, DUP and Tory Remainers will support whatever May brings back from M.Barnier, and today there is news that the text is nearly ready. Those still arguing for a time limited backstop re. Ireland are simply failing to understand the EU27 position and this is the key element which splits the Tories.
Whilst many support a People's vote as a way out of this mess and the argument is becoming more heated every day, May and her Cabinet will be doing everything they can to take a bill through Parliament that approves her deal. But let us not forget that May and her Cabinet are in power because of the support of a coalition which is fundamentally split on Brexit.
When the Brexit deal is presented, those in favour of a second referendum will surely table an amendment... And that's when we will see which way the Labour leadership will come down. And whether they can carry the vast majority of their 255 MPs?
The only way that Brexit can be stopped now is if May fails to secure support for her deal with Barnier. This then leads to a potential "no deal" which Parliament will not support so MPs either abort the whole thing or they put the question back to the people. And no matter how many different people look to criticise Corbyn or misinterpret the Labour composite resolution, that is precisely what Corbyn, McDonnell, Starmer et al have been playing for all along.
The irony is that the ball has been in May's court just as it has been all year. That some leading players in Labour believe that Brexit cannot be stopped is their view and one with which many concurred before Chequers came out. The people who can actually bring proceedings to a halt are actually the Tory remainers such as Jo Johnson and the cross party group of around 100 MPs. Not long to go until we see how this plays out.
One nation under a groove.