Well it is Lab, Lib Dem or Green for me. None seem to be doing that well, who would you have me vote for? I will do what I always do and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories where I live.
I think I have said it many times, I like Labours policies but I am not sure that Corbyn is electable. Unlike New Labour where I didn't like their policies but Blair was very electable (and I didn't like him).
The definition of balance. Right there.
Yeah basically not keen on anyone, the older I get the more Anarchist I become. Although the Tories are so awful I will hold my nose and vote to defeat them.
How about you, is it Lib Dem or no one? Or are you the Tory a lot of us suspect you are?
A lot of us? Time for bed.
Yes - a lot of us. As a supposed denizen of the middle ground, your criticism of the two main parties seems to be 90% against the party of opposition who have no real power, as opposed to the party in charge of the decisions we are discussing. As an intelligent person, I am sure that you can understand why we might question your claim to be a centerist under the circumstances?
Typical Tory rant from The People's Front of Judea.
Well it is Lab, Lib Dem or Green for me. None seem to be doing that well, who would you have me vote for? I will do what I always do and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories where I live.
I think I have said it many times, I like Labours policies but I am not sure that Corbyn is electable. Unlike New Labour where I didn't like their policies but Blair was very electable (and I didn't like him).
The definition of balance. Right there.
Yeah basically not keen on anyone, the older I get the more Anarchist I become. Although the Tories are so awful I will hold my nose and vote to defeat them.
How about you, is it Lib Dem or no one? Or are you the Tory a lot of us suspect you are?
A lot of us? Time for bed.
Yes - a lot of us. As a supposed denizen of the middle ground, your criticism of the two main parties seems to be 90% against the party of opposition who have no real power, as opposed to the party in charge of the decisions we are discussing. As an intelligent person, I am sure that you can understand why we might question your claim to be a centerist under the circumstances?
Typical Tory rant from The People's Front of Judea.
Re the multi-speed EU. In principle I share your interest in the idea. And to a British reader, the article you quoted seems to make a lot of sense.
Unfortunately it currently plays rather badly in some of the very countries you'd probably expect to be relegated to "Division 2", the ex CEE countries. Sometimes that position seems perverse, the Czechs are currenly dragging their feet on joining the eurozone for example. But it is usually the more pro Europe sections of their electorate who are most keen on integration. They want their country to be as much like the Netherlands as possible: prosperous, mature justice system, minimum corruption.
Here is the saddest thing: these countries are generally very positive about the UK generally. They look up to it, most especially our justice system. The UK had the best chance of selling them on the idea, if only we had stayed. But no, we had to make it the same old in versus out tribal conflict, instead of seeking out consensus and middle ground. Hugely frustrating.
This is worth reading in full: 'there is not enough time for a referendum, the constitutional opportunities for checking (or slowing) Brexit have already come and gone, there will be no way to choose between competing mandates, the whole thing will be divisive, and it may not get the result its supporters want anyway.'
Well it is Lab, Lib Dem or Green for me. None seem to be doing that well, who would you have me vote for? I will do what I always do and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories where I live.
I think I have said it many times, I like Labours policies but I am not sure that Corbyn is electable. Unlike New Labour where I didn't like their policies but Blair was very electable (and I didn't like him).
The definition of balance. Right there.
Yeah basically not keen on anyone, the older I get the more Anarchist I become. Although the Tories are so awful I will hold my nose and vote to defeat them.
How about you, is it Lib Dem or no one? Or are you the Tory a lot of us suspect you are?
A lot of us? Time for bed.
You must be exhausted.
Must be my reading matter.
I could recommend some books for you, nothing to tricky.
Says the cat who can't spell, 'too'. Riiiight.
Ouch that is really harsh. I concede to your superior wit and intellect.
From the cat who can spell 'stick to posting comical photos and funny tweets, you have a talent for it'.
Re the multi-speed EU. In principle I share your interest in the idea. And to a British reader, the article you quoted seems to make a lot of sense.
Unfortunately it currently plays rather badly in some of the very countries you'd probably expect to be relegated to "Division 2", the ex CEE countries. Sometimes that position seems perverse, the Czechs are currenly dragging their feet on joining the eurozone for example. But it is usually the more pro Europe sections of their electorate who are most keen on integration. They want their country to be as much like the Netherlands as possible: prosperous, mature justice system, minimum corruption.
Here is the saddest thing: these countries are generally very positive about the UK generally. They look up to it, most especially our justice system. The UK had the best chance of selling them on the idea, if only we had stayed. But no, we had to make it the same old in versus out tribal conflict, instead of seeking out consensus and middle ground. Hugely frustrating.
If we had seen a normal negotiation process (i.e. a proper 'bargaining' procedure with both sides allowing room for movement) - without the ineptitude on our side (90% of the problem) and the intransigence on the side of the EU (10% of the problem) - then I truly believe that we could have 'sold' this idea during the negotiations.
I just hope that both sides have not missed this opportunity to show the ex-CEE countries exactly what can be achieved.
Incidentally, I am not convinced that the opportunity has yet been lost ... I do not accept that either side will allow the negotiations to 'fall over the precipice' ... there is still a way to go yet.
Well it is Lab, Lib Dem or Green for me. None seem to be doing that well, who would you have me vote for? I will do what I always do and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories where I live.
I think I have said it many times, I like Labours policies but I am not sure that Corbyn is electable. Unlike New Labour where I didn't like their policies but Blair was very electable (and I didn't like him).
The definition of balance. Right there.
Yeah basically not keen on anyone, the older I get the more Anarchist I become. Although the Tories are so awful I will hold my nose and vote to defeat them.
How about you, is it Lib Dem or no one? Or are you the Tory a lot of us suspect you are?
A lot of us? Time for bed.
You must be exhausted.
Must be my reading matter.
I could recommend some books for you, nothing to tricky.
Says the cat who can't spell, 'too'. Riiiight.
Ouch that is really harsh. I concede to your superior wit and intellect.
From the cat who can spell 'stick to posting comical photos and funny tweets, you have a talent for it'.
You've mis spelled 'cat', and please don't tell me what to post on.
Well it is Lab, Lib Dem or Green for me. None seem to be doing that well, who would you have me vote for? I will do what I always do and vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories where I live.
I think I have said it many times, I like Labours policies but I am not sure that Corbyn is electable. Unlike New Labour where I didn't like their policies but Blair was very electable (and I didn't like him).
The definition of balance. Right there.
Yeah basically not keen on anyone, the older I get the more Anarchist I become. Although the Tories are so awful I will hold my nose and vote to defeat them.
How about you, is it Lib Dem or no one? Or are you the Tory a lot of us suspect you are?
A lot of us? Time for bed.
You must be exhausted.
Must be my reading matter.
I could recommend some books for you, nothing to tricky.
Says the cat who can't spell, 'too'. Riiiight.
Ouch that is really harsh. I concede to your superior wit and intellect.
From the cat who can spell 'stick to posting comical photos and funny tweets, you have a talent for it'.
You've mis spelled 'cat', and please don't tell me what to post on.
Re the multi-speed EU. In principle I share your interest in the idea. And to a British reader, the article you quoted seems to make a lot of sense.
Unfortunately it currently plays rather badly in some of the very countries you'd probably expect to be relegated to "Division 2", the ex CEE countries. Sometimes that position seems perverse, the Czechs are currenly dragging their feet on joining the eurozone for example. But it is usually the more pro Europe sections of their electorate who are most keen on integration. They want their country to be as much like the Netherlands as possible: prosperous, mature justice system, minimum corruption.
Here is the saddest thing: these countries are generally very positive about the UK generally. They look up to it, most especially our justice system. The UK had the best chance of selling them on the idea, if only we had stayed. But no, we had to make it the same old in versus out tribal conflict, instead of seeking out consensus and middle ground. Hugely frustrating.
If we had seen a normal negotiation process (i.e. a proper 'bargaining' procedure with both sides allowing room for movement) - without the ineptitude on our side (90% of the problem) and the intransigence on the side of the EU (10% of the problem) - then I truly believe that we could have 'sold' this idea during the negotiations.
I just hope that both sides have not missed this opportunity to show the ex-CEE countries exactly what can be achieved.
Incidentally, I am not convinced that the opportunity has yet been lost ... I do not accept that either side will allow the negotiations to 'fall over the precipice' ... there is still a way to go yet.
I agree, in my opinion if the UK had started by convincing the EU we were willing to walk away, but then sat at the table like grown ups it could have been very different. There has definitely been intransigence from the EU, but I think Davis' peacocking early on has a lot to do with the entrenched positions the two sides are now in.
I fail to see how the sociological make up of over half a million people can be judged by the observations of cynical journalists, or anybody else either feeling positive or negative about the crowd. It was a lot of people after all.
Just wondering if anybody cares what the working class might think, especially you pro Corbyn class warriors. They do not seem to have been on the demo. But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
That is complete rubbish - all classes were at the demo. There you go - corrected. I would say it was shy of thick, ignorant people but I think it is insulting if some are trying to say those sort of people are the working class.
But it isn't insulting to say those not on the march are thick and ignorant?
Which wasn't a criteria for not going on the march and not what I said. I'm sure the vast majority of people who did not go on the march were not thick and ignorant. The point is simple enough - how can people tell if somebody is from a working class background or not without speaking to them? And it isn't easy to speak to 700k people and know what class they represent. Actually, it is impossible. It is insulting and ignorant to suggest so.
This is worth reading in full: 'there is not enough time for a referendum, the constitutional opportunities for checking (or slowing) Brexit have already come and gone, there will be no way to choose between competing mandates, the whole thing will be divisive, and it may not get the result its supporters want anyway.'
This is worth reading in full: 'there is not enough time for a referendum, the constitutional opportunities for checking (or slowing) Brexit have already come and gone, there will be no way to choose between competing mandates, the whole thing will be divisive, and it may not get the result its supporters want anyway.'
My understanding, although I suppose exceptions can be made, indeed are made, is that if the UK leaves the EU, in order to re apply in the future should it wish to there would be a lot of pressure to join the Euro.
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
I actually agree with you. Fuck knows what happens next
My understanding, although I suppose exceptions can be made, indeed are made, is that if the UK leaves the EU, in order to re apply in the future should it wish to there would be a lot of pressure to join the Euro.
Countries joining the EU are supposed to sign up to joining the Euro, but certain conditions have to be met, so the UK could make like Sweden and tax and spend, with lots of money being focussed on public services, and never meet the criteria (obviously, that probably means never having a Tory Government again, which leads to much increased effort in trying to identify a downside somewhere).
Perhaps it’s best that the current governmental and opposition shitfest both collapse and we can start again with decent negotiators who actually know how to negotiate.
I think the bad publicity may have saved her this week. It is clear they are struggling to get the final numbers they need and people they may have persuaded may be taking a step back.
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
I see Kate Howey reads on here. Asked TM my question re who excatly would build the sodding border if no deal......TM didn't answer her either so we're still non the wiser !
‘But what cannot be denied is that nobody voted Leave on 23 June 2016 in order for its implementation to be entrusted to a minority government in all-out war with itself. It's too important. They have had their chance and they have failed more spectacularly than it is possible to imagine.‘
May was hinting at a customs union so perhaps that’s not true @""seth plum" Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
May was hinting at a customs union so perhaps that’s not true @""seth plum" Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
Until the extreme brexiteers say a customs union is not brexit. If David Davis ends up in charge perhaps he will magic up the easiest trade deal ever as he promised. Incidentally regarding the land border in Ireland, Davis has lined up firmly behind the non existent, and unworkable 'technological' solution, dressed up with these ridiculous 'trusted trader' ideas, and local exemptions. That all translates into Davis has no solution to the Irish border question.
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
I see Kate Howey reads on here. Asked TM my question re who excatly would build the sodding border if no deal......TM didn't answer her either so we're still non the wiser !
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
I see Kate Howey reads on here. Asked TM my question re who excatly would build the sodding border if no deal......TM didn't answer her either so we're still non the wiser !
I wouldn’t take any pleasure in being of the same mind as Kate Howey if I were you!
Actually felt sorry for May this afternoon. She’s hanging by a thread and the vultures are circling. The Tory brexiteer nutjobs are no way going to accept the deal May is bringing home. She’s swimming against the tide of her own party and even if she’s survives the next couple of weeks I don’t think she can survive the vote in Parliament. Can the government survive ? What follows that scenario ? Interesting times
I see Kate Howey reads on here. Asked TM my question re who excatly would build the sodding border if no deal......TM didn't answer her either so we're still non the wiser !
May was hinting at a customs union so perhaps that’s not true @""seth plum" Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
Until the extreme brexiteers say a customs union is not brexit. If David Davis ends up in charge perhaps he will magic up the easiest trade deal ever as he promised. Incidentally regarding the land border in Ireland, Davis has lined up firmly behind the non existent, and unworkable 'technological' solution, dressed up with these ridiculous 'trusted trader' ideas, and local exemptions. That all translates into Davis has no solution to the Irish border question.
Well, seeing as staying in THE Customs Union means keeping freedom of trade & movement of people then I would have to agree that its not Brexit.
May was hinting at a customs union so perhaps that’s not true @""seth plum" Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
Until the extreme brexiteers say a customs union is not brexit. If David Davis ends up in charge perhaps he will magic up the easiest trade deal ever as he promised. Incidentally regarding the land border in Ireland, Davis has lined up firmly behind the non existent, and unworkable 'technological' solution, dressed up with these ridiculous 'trusted trader' ideas, and local exemptions. That all translates into Davis has no solution to the Irish border question.
Well, seeing as staying in THE Customs Union means keeping freedom of trade & movement of people then I would have to agree that its not Brexit.
its not that hard to understand is it.
Based on the wording of the referendum, the Norway model is Brexit - it's not that difficult to understand is it?
The problem is if the Tories get rid of May and replace her with a Brexiter, Remainers would rebel. If she was replaced with a Remainer, Brexiters would rebel. If they oust her, what will happen next will be hard to predict but I think that is the reason ultimately she will not be challenged for now. I think the threat may be tactical and about pushing her in the hard Brexiters direction.
May was hinting at a customs union so perhaps that’s not true @""seth plum" Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
Until the extreme brexiteers say a customs union is not brexit. If David Davis ends up in charge perhaps he will magic up the easiest trade deal ever as he promised. Incidentally regarding the land border in Ireland, Davis has lined up firmly behind the non existent, and unworkable 'technological' solution, dressed up with these ridiculous 'trusted trader' ideas, and local exemptions. That all translates into Davis has no solution to the Irish border question.
Well, seeing as staying in THE Customs Union means keeping freedom of trade & movement of people then I would have to agree that its not Brexit.
its not that hard to understand is it.
But the referendum didn't mention freedom of movement!
I believe (possibly wrongly) that losing freedom of movement will lead to a higher population in the UK. Eventually there will be a depression and our unemployed will have nowhere to go to find work. So which way should I have voted if I want to leave the EU but keep freedom of movement!
Comments
Re the multi-speed EU. In principle I share your interest in the idea. And to a British reader, the article you quoted seems to make a lot of sense.
Unfortunately it currently plays rather badly in some of the very countries you'd probably expect to be relegated to "Division 2", the ex CEE countries. Sometimes that position seems perverse, the Czechs are currenly dragging their feet on joining the eurozone for example. But it is usually the more pro Europe sections of their electorate who are most keen on integration. They want their country to be as much like the Netherlands as possible: prosperous, mature justice system, minimum corruption.
Here is the saddest thing: these countries are generally very positive about the UK generally. They look up to it, most especially our justice system. The UK had the best chance of selling them on the idea, if only we had stayed. But no, we had to make it the same old in versus out tribal conflict, instead of seeking out consensus and middle ground. Hugely frustrating.
jackofkent.com/2018/10/five-arguments-against-a-peoplesvote/
From the cat who can spell 'stick to posting comical photos and funny tweets, you have a talent for it'.
I just hope that both sides have not missed this opportunity to show the ex-CEE countries exactly what can be achieved.
Incidentally, I am not convinced that the opportunity has yet been lost ... I do not accept that either side will allow the negotiations to 'fall over the precipice' ... there is still a way to go yet.
Interesting times
Fuck knows what happens next
Trouble is I can’t think of any.
‘But what cannot be denied is that nobody voted Leave on 23 June 2016 in order for its implementation to be entrusted to a minority government in all-out war with itself. It's too important. They have had their chance and they have failed more spectacularly than it is possible to imagine.‘
Only problem of course is that Davis, Mogg et al won’t accept it. Suits the DUP though so it could come to a very close vote if the rest of what’s on the table satisfies Labours six tests.
Personally I now think David Davis will be PM before the end of March. That way the Tories survive because they won’t under any circumstances call a general election.
If David Davis ends up in charge perhaps he will magic up the easiest trade deal ever as he promised.
Incidentally regarding the land border in Ireland, Davis has lined up firmly behind the non existent, and unworkable 'technological' solution, dressed up with these ridiculous 'trusted trader' ideas, and local exemptions. That all translates into Davis has no solution to the Irish border question.
its not that hard to understand is it.
It may not be your version of Brexit though!
I believe (possibly wrongly) that losing freedom of movement will lead to a higher population in the UK.
Eventually there will be a depression and our unemployed will have nowhere to go to find work. So which way should I have voted if I want to leave the EU but keep freedom of movement!