That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Course he wasn't, he didn't want to run into you.
Think you are being a bit optimistic about a Layber Guvt, I thought we were heading for an eternal Tory Guvt. We voted for them once we keep them for ever. I believe that is how it works now with elections and referendums.
Was Cleggy there or has he buggered off to Facebook already?
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?! I This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Cheap shot. You are a dedicated champion of many causes. How about you dissect the six Labour red-lines before you pour scorn on Corbyn who had no involvement in the referendum.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?! I This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Cheap shot. You are a dedicated champion of many causes. How about you dissect the six Labour red-lines before you pour scorn on Corbyn who had no involvement in the referendum.
Sorry mate but I've never had any time for Corbyn and his twats. Since the 80s. Shall I dig out Neil Kinnock's speech to remind you of where they lead you?
How is it possible that you have the biggest protest for years against a key Govt. policy and none of the front bench of HM Opposition even attend?
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?! I This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Cheap shot. You are a dedicated champion of many causes. How about you dissect the six Labour red-lines before you pour scorn on Corbyn who had no involvement in the referendum.
Sorry mate but I've never had any time for Corbyn and his twats. Since the 80s. Shall I dig out Neil Kinnock's speech to remind you of where they lead you?
How is it possible that you have the biggest protest for years against a key Govt. policy and none of the front bench of HM Opposition even attend?
Maybe because they were elected last year on a Leave manifesto? I know it is very old fashioned to think that what politicians say during election campaigns should be adhered to, so apologies for that.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Half the bloody problem isn’t it? He wasn’t there and he isn’t engaged. Absolute dereliction of duty.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
Do me a favour.
Some honesty would be helpful. Just what percentage of those on the march would be happy to leave the EU and only have a say on the terms of leaving would you estimate?
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
But it IS over. There isn't going to be another vote. If there is any vote it will likely be yet another general election because the Tories fail to get a deal that parliament will back. Where will that leave us? It's unlikely it will lead to a change in government, just more turmoil.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
We've already voted to remain. Democracy would be dead in this country if there was a second vote on this.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
Precisely! What the Brexiteers are afraid of is that there is no actual deal which remotely resembles what they promised back in 2016. So their standard response is to cite an advisory referendum result and tell May to "get on with it"
Their cause is starting to fragment just as we hit the decisive period with respects to the deal and ratification, or not.
Given that there is little chance of extending the Article 50 period, the extreme Brexit elements squawks about "No deal" being Ok. Anything to get Brexit over the line!
However defeat for a deal in Parliament might lead to a people's vote or a snap election as MPs will wish to avoid "No deal".
Impossible to predict but it's clear that Leave wish to freeze the UK at that point in June 2016... or at least prepare their victim narrative so as to give them chances in a new vote. Hannan is now saying leave voters should boycott another vote... running scared!
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
We've already voted to remain. Democracy would be dead in this country if there was a second vote on this.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
We've already voted to remain. Democracy would be dead in this country if there was a second vote on this.
So, democracy is a snapshot. Say cheese and hope for the best. I hope you don't blink because you can never try to improve upon it.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
We've already voted to remain. Democracy would be dead in this country if there was a second vote on this.
Blimey a new twist, when did we vote to remain ?
What, we lost the leave vote? I must have been sleeping. Can I vote again until I get the answer I want
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Hang about. You've been arguing since the referendum that the only way is your way i.e. no SM or CU membership. Now you appear to be saying you think the Norway option would fulfil the outcome of the vote. On that we can agree.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Farage said if he lost 48-52 it wasn't over. Why should it be over if it went his way?
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
We've already voted to remain. Democracy would be dead in this country if there was a second vote on this.
Blimey a new twist, when did we vote to remain ?
What, we lost the leave vote? I must have been sleeping. Can I vote again until I get the answer I want
I keep hearing Brexit voters telling me they won but they're unable to articulate what Brexit means. The leaders of the Brexit campaign don't even want to get involved with the process because they don't know what they're doing and shirk responsibility.
If you're going to leave something you need to understand what you're doing and how to do so - that certainly isn't the case.
This isn't some stupid childish game where the level of debate is 'we won, you lost so stop arguing'.
I fully get that there was a referendum to leave the EU but can someone on here seriously argue that politicians have a clue how to execute this?
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?! I This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
That would be the liberal elite / remain establishment fake news channel?!
This should galvanize those members of Parliament who see an opportunity to take back control of democracy.
Will be interesting to see how the event will be digested over the next week or two.
Actually the organisers claimed 700,000 and the BBC reported the claim. The police refused to give an estimate, too much of a political hot potato.
I am sure there were a lot of Remainers on the streets today tho, London has always been Remain.
Just as they refuse to investigate the Vote Leave election expenditure scandal for the same reason : "political sensitivity". I cannot remember them ever refusing to estimate a protest crowd before. And they had enough helicopters in the air. It's wholly unacceptable, and we won't have heard the last of it.
At the Wooferendum event before it started, the guy leading the event started predicting the effect if the numbers reached a certain level. He stopped at 300k ("they will be shitting themselves" ) . He also said that as they march at the back, they expected to wait until 13.00 before they moved off. So the numbers were twice his wildest dreams, and I was already at The Valley before my four legged comrades got a proper walk. I think 700k is perfectly believable.
Well done for going @PragueAddick, Helen was there too but she didn't spot you.
I didnt spot the Leader of the Next Layber Guvt pledged to Soshulist Policees, either. Was he there?
Cheap shot. You are a dedicated champion of many causes. How about you dissect the six Labour red-lines before you pour scorn on Corbyn who had no involvement in the referendum.
Sorry mate but I've never had any time for Corbyn and his twats. Since the 80s. Shall I dig out Neil Kinnock's speech to remind you of where they lead you?
How is it possible that you have the biggest protest for years against a key Govt. policy and none of the front bench of HM Opposition even attend?
@PragueAddick I think you have a tendency to see everything in black and white with Corbyn in particular and Labour in general (when it comes to Brexit).
The grey area is that they have to somehow represent two views the first is the best Brexit we can get and the second is no Brexit. By holding the first view they can hold the govt. to account and perhaps prove that a good Brexit is impossible to achieve. If they can prove that and their six tests (all of which are cleverly drawn from Tory/May quotes) will almost certainly reach that conclusion then they open the door too no Brexit.
But (and it is a big but) how possible do you think it is to go from the Tories omni-shambles on this straight to a no Brexit? I would say pretty impossible as things stand but that might change and the change might be quick.
Like it or not the country did vote to leave and like it or not the country is still hugely divided which gives several strong conclusions. I think you can apply this to all anti-Brexit groups/individuals not just Labour.
1. They can do nothing if they are not in power. 2. How do they heal the rift running down the middle of our country. 3. Should they put all their eggs in the one basket of 'no Brexit' and risk an appalling deal/leaving on a no deal.
The first is self-explanatory, the second could see even greater support for the far right if we do not address it properly and a never ending in/out battle where all our political capacity is taken up arguing rather than changing the conditions that 'enabled' a Brexit vote.
The third is in my opinion where the real dereliction of duty would come in, we need to ensure that we don't leave on a no deal or leave in a way that rips our country apart for a generation or leave in a way that cuts us off from our European partners because of distrust and mutual loathing. Sure Labour are playing politics and keeping their options open but isn't that how you get the best deal and isn't that how the best politics is played out?
This excellent piece by Carole Cadwalladr needs no additional observation from me other than to say that Nick Clegg is the kind of centrist, democrat and Europhile that many on here have been calling to rescue us all from right/left/in/out .
By working for Facebook he has lost any last vestiges of moral authority to lecture the rest of us Leavers or Remainers, I particularly put this to you @PragueAddick because apart from you being a Lib Dem* you above anybody else I know has been warning us on here of the dangers of Facebook and what their true purpose was for some time, I also know that you are a big fan of Carole Cadwalladr as well.
A bunch of people exercising their democratic right to show their hatred for democracy.
God bless Britain.
Actually this deserves a more serious response.
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
As long as it is a vote on whether the terms should be accepted or not, and not a rerun of the Referendum then I agree.
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
Hang about. You've been arguing since the referendum that the only way is your way i.e. no SM or CU membership. Now you appear to be saying you think the Norway option would fulfil the outcome of the vote. On that we can agree.
Spot on. Brexit means (god knows how many ways) means Brexit. Are we supposed to believe that all leave voters voted for the same version. Most didn’t know what the “Norway option” was then and most still don’t.
@NornIrishAddick - It seems on this point, we are in agreement, any form of 'border' would be an absolute shitshow, which I stated earlier, my point was that a full hard border would not be necessary.
Really not sure what your perception of a hard border is ? To me it’s customs posts and passport checks on all road crossing points which will probably mean some smaller crossing points being blocked. That is what a hard border means to me anyway.
That's not what I've seen in other countries I've visited, all members of the WTO.
That is certainly an interpretation of a hard border, one that I think is possible. What I was saying is 100% unnecessary is a hard border (wall/fence) across the entire island.
That won’t happen. Don’t think I’ve ever read that it would.
Go back and look at the last page.
"Who is actually going to construct the thing? 310 miles of fence/wall/radar surveillance or whatever is agreed looks like being one hell of a construction project. I hope they've got their contracts and project plans in place for immediate sign-off. Like everything else to do with Brexit it's looking like a very tall order."
I think the point was being made that it won’t be a completely fenced border, not least due to the enormous engineering cost and complexity involved.
I would guess that the borders you’ve visited that trade on WTO terms do have customs & immigration posts on the major crossings?
1) I don't agree that was the point at all, the poster, imo, was seriously discussing how a full border would be financed and built.
2) Yes, which I think is the worst possible outcome of a hard Brexit - which would be a total disaster - but several people have discussed a full border, numerous times, which is what I was saying will never happen, as it's completely unnecessary.
Agreed, those people are mental.
To be fair, the entire idea of a no deal scenario is mental.
JRM thinks differently - will provide a £1.1 trillion boost to UK economy over 15 years. There is nothing to fear....
It convinced me and it's a very big number. I'm not quite sure how the figure was arrived at but he seems an awfully nice chap and it seems rude to question him.
We're in the money providing those pesky remainers don't ruin everything.
@NornIrishAddick - It seems on this point, we are in agreement, any form of 'border' would be an absolute shitshow, which I stated earlier, my point was that a full hard border would not be necessary.
Really not sure what your perception of a hard border is ? To me it’s customs posts and passport checks on all road crossing points which will probably mean some smaller crossing points being blocked. That is what a hard border means to me anyway.
That's not what I've seen in other countries I've visited, all members of the WTO.
That is certainly an interpretation of a hard border, one that I think is possible. What I was saying is 100% unnecessary is a hard border (wall/fence) across the entire island.
That won’t happen. Don’t think I’ve ever read that it would.
Go back and look at the last page.
"Who is actually going to construct the thing? 310 miles of fence/wall/radar surveillance or whatever is agreed looks like being one hell of a construction project. I hope they've got their contracts and project plans in place for immediate sign-off. Like everything else to do with Brexit it's looking like a very tall order."
I think the point was being made that it won’t be a completely fenced border, not least due to the enormous engineering cost and complexity involved.
I would guess that the borders you’ve visited that trade on WTO terms do have customs & immigration posts on the major crossings?
1) I don't agree that was the point at all, the poster, imo, was seriously discussing how a full border would be financed and built.
2) Yes, which I think is the worst possible outcome of a hard Brexit - which would be a total disaster - but several people have discussed a full border, numerous times, which is what I was saying will never happen, as it's completely unnecessary.
Agreed, those people are mental.
To be fair, the entire idea of a no deal scenario is mental.
JRM thinks differently - will provide a £1.1 trillion boost to UK economy over 15 years. There is nothing to fear....
It convinced me and it's a very big number. I'm not quite sure how the figure was arrived at but he seems an awfully nice chap and it seems rude to question him.
We're in the money providing those pesky remainers don't ruin everything.
In JRM we trust!
Nailed it
The trouble is I'm now relying on JRM being a deluded genius.
Would seem we'd be better off joining the EEA in April 2019.
Doesn't suit the hard Brexiters as still a "vassal state" and doesn't suit the remainers either as not in the EU but we have Norway style access to the single market, Ireland isn't an issue either but it does give us time to either do a better deal with the EU (unlikely) or sort out 75 trade deals with other countries so we just don't fall off the no deal cliff.
But as very few people and very few MPs want EEA membership May can't politically opt for that.
I think the problem is that a lot of people think "no deal" means carrying on pretty much as we are but with a few longer queues when you go abroad. It actually means and would be better called "no deals". It means we have no trade deals with any country at all.
The problem with the EEA/Norway solution on its own is that it does not solve the NI/frictionless trade issue. We have only to look at the Norway/Sweden border to see that. Even with the magical unicorn technology APNR etc solution that Norway are trying to introduce in the next 5 years, it will only stop around 70% of goods transits requiring a physical check (reported by Norway Govt). So we would need to have a Customs Union agreement as as well.
I always thought that a Brexit deal that could unite the middle against the extremes would be something along those lines.
I am an EU Enthusiast - such a deal I could live with but if I had a chance to vote on it, I would vote to remain because that solution means we have far more limited influence than a full member. Even the Norwegian Govt suggested that would not be a good option.
This whole situation is an utter mess. May should never have triggered A50 until there was a clear exit plan fleshed out with the EU. The Brextremists should have taken their own advice and agreed a second referendum on the final deal. Instead rather like the Grand Old Duke of York, May has marched her troups to the top of the hill, and had to march them back down again as the EUs red lines trump hers.
There is now no Parliamentary majority for
1. Leaving with no deal 2. Chequers or son of Chequers 3. EEA + 4. Canada +++ 5. Remaining in the EU 6. A General Election
What needs to happen now is for the parliamentary arithmatic to play out. By the end of it, we may get an agreement to leave but only subject to a referendum on whatever the parliamentary outcome is.
If there is a deal (which I think there will be), then the question to the people will be
Leave on the deal or remain?
If there is no deal, then the question to the people will be.
Leave without a deal or remain?
This is the only way out now. Whatever happens we are in for years of argument.
Would seem we'd be better off joining the EEA in April 2019.
Doesn't suit the hard Brexiters as still a "vassal state" and doesn't suit the remainers either as not in the EU but we have Norway style access to the single market, Ireland isn't an issue either but it does give us time to either do a better deal with the EU (unlikely) or sort out 75 trade deals with other countries so we just don't fall off the no deal cliff.
But as very few people and very few MPs want EEA membership May can't politically opt for that.
I think the problem is that a lot of people think "no deal" means carrying on pretty much as we are but with a few longer queues when you go abroad. It actually means and would be better called "no deals". It means we have no trade deals with any country at all.
The problem with the EEA/Norway solution on its own is that it does not solve the NI/frictionless trade issue. We have only to look at the Norway/Sweden border to see that. Even with the magical unicorn technology APNR etc solution that Norway are trying to introduce in the next 5 years, it will only stop around 70% of goods transits requiring a physical check (reported by Norway Govt). So we would need to have a Customs Union agreement as as well.
I always thought that a Brexit deal that could unite the middle against the extremes would be something along those lines.
I am an EU Enthusiast - such a deal I could live with but if I had a chance to vote on it, I would vote to remain because that solution means we have far more limited influence than a full member. Even the Norwegian Govt suggested that would not be a good option.
This whole situation is an utter mess. May should never have triggered A50 until there was a clear exit plan fleshed out with the EU. The Brextremists should have taken their own advice and agreed a second referendum on the final deal. Instead rather like the Grand Old Duke of York, May has marched her troups to the top of the hill, and had to march them back down again as the EUs red lines trump hers.
There is now no Parliamentary majority for
1. Leaving with no deal 2. Chequers or son of Chequers 3. EEA + 4. Canada +++ 5. Remaining in the EU 6. A General Election
What needs to happen now is for the parliamentary arithmatic to play out. By the end of it, we may get an agreement to leave but only subject to a referendum on whatever the parliamentary outcome is.
If there is a deal (which I think there will be), then the question to the people will be
Leave on the deal or remain?
If there is no deal, then the question to the people will be.
Leave without a deal or remain?
This is the only way out now. Whatever happens we are in for years of argument.
Don't worry.......John Bercow will soon bully them into submission.
Comments
Think you are being a bit optimistic about a Layber Guvt, I thought we were heading for an eternal Tory Guvt. We voted for them once we keep them for ever. I believe that is how it works now with elections and referendums.
Was Cleggy there or has he buggered off to Facebook already?
God bless Britain.
How is it possible that you have the biggest protest for years against a key Govt. policy and none of the front bench of HM Opposition even attend?
The key demand of these protesters was a VOTE on the eventual terms of Brexit. A VOTE...
hatred for democracy, you say?
The referendum instruction was to Leave The EU. There are many ways to do this, May's is not one of them which makes sense. I would love a referendum which said to her, not good enough, try again.
But I also do not think that was what today's demo was about.
What are the brexiteers afraid of?
A vote on the deal, including a remain option, should settle it one way or another.
Some honesty would be helpful. Just what percentage of those on the march would be happy to leave the EU and only have a say on the terms of leaving would you estimate?
What the Brexiteers are afraid of is that there is no actual deal which remotely resembles what they promised back in 2016. So their standard response is to cite an advisory referendum result and tell May to "get on with it"
Their cause is starting to fragment just as we hit the decisive period with respects to the deal and ratification, or not.
Given that there is little chance of extending the Article 50 period, the extreme Brexit elements squawks about "No deal" being Ok. Anything to get Brexit over the line!
However defeat for a deal in Parliament might lead to a people's vote or a snap election as MPs will wish to avoid "No deal".
Impossible to predict but it's clear that Leave wish to freeze the UK at that point in June 2016... or at least prepare their victim narrative so as to give them chances in a new vote. Hannan is now saying leave voters should boycott another vote... running scared!
If you're going to leave something you need to understand what you're doing and how to do so - that certainly isn't the case.
This isn't some stupid childish game where the level of debate is 'we won, you lost so stop arguing'.
I fully get that there was a referendum to leave the EU but can someone on here seriously argue that politicians have a clue how to execute this?
The grey area is that they have to somehow represent two views the first is the best Brexit we can get and the second is no Brexit. By holding the first view they can hold the govt. to account and perhaps prove that a good Brexit is impossible to achieve. If they can prove that and their six tests (all of which are cleverly drawn from Tory/May quotes) will almost certainly reach that conclusion then they open the door too no Brexit.
But (and it is a big but) how possible do you think it is to go from the Tories omni-shambles on this straight to a no Brexit? I would say pretty impossible as things stand but that might change and the change might be quick.
Like it or not the country did vote to leave and like it or not the country is still hugely divided which gives several strong conclusions. I think you can apply this to all anti-Brexit groups/individuals not just Labour.
1. They can do nothing if they are not in power.
2. How do they heal the rift running down the middle of our country.
3. Should they put all their eggs in the one basket of 'no Brexit' and risk an appalling deal/leaving on a no deal.
The first is self-explanatory, the second could see even greater support for the far right if we do not address it properly and a never ending in/out battle where all our political capacity is taken up arguing rather than changing the conditions that 'enabled' a Brexit vote.
The third is in my opinion where the real dereliction of duty would come in, we need to ensure that we don't leave on a no deal or leave in a way that rips our country apart for a generation or leave in a way that cuts us off from our European partners because of distrust and mutual loathing. Sure Labour are playing politics and keeping their options open but isn't that how you get the best deal and isn't that how the best politics is played out?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/21/if-youre-on-the-side-of-democracy-why-are-you-going-to-work-for-facebook
This excellent piece by Carole Cadwalladr needs no additional observation from me other than to say that Nick Clegg is the kind of centrist, democrat and Europhile that many on here have been calling to rescue us all from right/left/in/out .
By working for Facebook he has lost any last vestiges of moral authority to lecture the rest of us Leavers or Remainers, I particularly put this to you @PragueAddick because apart from you being a Lib Dem* you above anybody else I know has been warning us on here of the dangers of Facebook and what their true purpose was for some time, I also know that you are a big fan of Carole Cadwalladr as well.
* I voted Lib Dem from 2002 - 2010 too.
I always thought that a Brexit deal that could unite the middle against the extremes would be something along those lines.
I am an EU Enthusiast - such a deal I could live with but if I had a chance to vote on it, I would vote to remain because that solution means we have far more limited influence than a full member. Even the Norwegian Govt suggested that would not be a good option.
This whole situation is an utter mess. May should never have triggered A50 until there was a clear exit plan fleshed out with the EU. The Brextremists should have taken their own advice and agreed a second referendum on the final deal. Instead rather like the Grand Old Duke of York, May has marched her troups to the top of the hill, and had to march them back down again as the EUs red lines trump hers.
There is now no Parliamentary majority for
1. Leaving with no deal
2. Chequers or son of Chequers
3. EEA +
4. Canada +++
5. Remaining in the EU
6. A General Election
What needs to happen now is for the parliamentary arithmatic to play out. By the end of it, we may get an agreement to leave but only subject to a referendum on whatever the parliamentary outcome is.
If there is a deal (which I think there will be), then the question to the people will be
Leave on the deal or remain?
If there is no deal, then the question to the people will be.
Leave without a deal or remain?
This is the only way out now. Whatever happens we are in for years of argument.
He is being controversial once again in order to keep himself in the media.