Ireland didn't have multiple referendums until they got the "right" result. This is a perpuated by the uninformed or the deliberately disingenuous.
They held a referendum on whether to accept the treaty. The Irish people said no. They were asked why and then the treaty was renegotiated to satisfy their concerns.
Another referendum was held to see if the Irish people where happy with the amended treaty and they voted yes.
This is perfectly acceptable in a properly functioning democracy. The fact people can't understand that tells you everything you need to know about the state of our democracy.
Even more telling is that many Brexiters will claim they voted leave because the EU isn't democratic, whilst blithely ignoring the major deficiencies in our own democracy.
I actually agree with a much of the original post but this whole myth around the Irish rerunning referendums really annoys me as it feeds directly into the whole 'EU=bullying undemocratic dictatorship' narrative spouted by Leavers.
Without checking admittedly, but I'm pretty sure none of the votes held on the treaties were about the adoption of the euro either.
One of the referendums we votes twice on was Lisbon. I believe that was the one that introduced Article 50. The other referendum we ran twice was Nice.
Ireland was the only EU member state that held public referendums on the Treaty. Ratification of the Treaty in all other member states is decided upon by the states' national parliaments. The referendum was part of the larger EU ratification of the Treaty, which required that all EU members and the European Parliament must ratify it. A "No" vote in the referendum could have blocked the treaty in the EU altogether. ...
Accordingly, the Irish government renegotiated the terms of the Treaty, adding areas where Ireland would have specific exclusions,[clarification needed] which could be presented in a second referendum.
However, many Irish voters were critical of the Treaty contents, believing that it marginalised smaller states. Others questioned the impact of the Treaty on Irish neutrality. Other sections viewed the leadership of the Union as out of touch and arrogant, with the Treaty offering a perceived chance to 'shock' the European leadership into a greater willingness to listen to its critics.
......
The Irish government, having obtained the Seville Declaration on Ireland's policy of military neutrality from the European Council, decided to have another referendum on the Treaty of Nice on Saturday, 19 October 2002. Two significant qualifications were included in the second proposed amendment, one requiring the consent of the Dáil for enhanced cooperation under the treaty, and another preventing Ireland from joining any EU common defence policy.
As a country we had concerns with both treaties and the possible expansion of the powers of the EU over our sovereignty. We rejected the treaties. Our government listed to us, negotiated improved terms specific to the concerns of the people and once these issues were addressed we voted yes.
A very grown up approach to the EU. Its notable that we have among the highest EU approval among all members despite how we feel about the terms forced upon us during the bank bail out.
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
Are you saying we've never had a PM with a posh voice? Alec Douglas-Home (a member of the aristocracy), Anthony Eden (a member of the aristocracy) - both in my lifetime (Eden just!) and both Old Etonians.
The so-called 'elite' will always run the country - twas ever thus, despite the hopes that leavers had of the little man taking back control.
nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of "the common man" don't go into politics because they are blinkered & think its a rich mans "thing" and some are even blinkered enough to think that "speaks well" means "toff" and therefore up their own arses.
Also many go straight into manual work & stay there for the rest of their lives.
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
Fully support the idea that Prime Ministers should be educated. What’s not sitting with me comfortably though is the fact that Eton College is one school in the UK and yet it is disproportionately represented in the House of Commons on the front benches and out of a total of 54 Prime Ministers the staggering figure of 19 were educated at Eton.
Now that’s quite some coincidence or something else is working here.
I will also add that I do worry that too many people equate speaking with a plummy accent as being a sign of intelligence. But the British do still like in the main to doff our caps.
Top positions being filled from The best schools seems reasonable to me.
You might imagine that such selection would lead to the best quality applicants. Take a look at our 'top' politicians; it doesn't seem to be working.
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
Are you saying we've never had a PM with a posh voice? Alec Douglas-Home (a member of the aristocracy), Anthony Eden (a member of the aristocracy) - both in my lifetime (Eden just!) and both Old Etonians.
The so-called 'elite' will always run the country - twas ever thus, despite the hopes that leavers had of the little man taking back control.
nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of "the common man" don't go into politics because they are blinkered & think its a rich mans "thing" and some are even blinkered enough to think that "speaks well" means "toff" and therefore up their own arses.
Also many go straight into manual work & stay there for the rest of their lives.
seems the same old prejudices still exist.
Not sure but im willing to bet that the vast majority of MP’s come from what you are suggesting is a common background. Speaking well is not the preserve of what you are referring to as toffs. Agree that some people listen to someones accent and think they must be either clever or transversely thick. Never judge a book by its cover.
Ireland didn't have multiple referendums until they got the "right" result. This is a perpuated by the uninformed or the deliberately disingenuous.
They held a referendum on whether to accept the treaty. The Irish people said no. They were asked why and then the treaty was renegotiated to satisfy their concerns.
Another referendum was held to see if the Irish people where happy with the amended treaty and they voted yes.
This is perfectly acceptable in a properly functioning democracy. The fact people can't understand that tells you everything you need to know about the state of our democracy.
Even more telling is that many Brexiters will claim they voted leave because the EU isn't democratic, whilst blithely ignoring the major deficiencies in our own democracy.
I actually agree with a much of the original post but this whole myth around the Irish rerunning referendums really annoys me as it feeds directly into the whole 'EU=bullying undemocratic dictatorship' narrative spouted by Leavers.
Without checking admittedly, but I'm pretty sure none of the votes held on the treaties were about the adoption of the euro either.
Breaking my own rule to not contribute here
I could be wrong and I probably am about Ireland and the euro, the main guts of my post was to say it's obvious the political establishment did not want the result they got. As someone who isn't part of that I just see they still haven't got it, the vote should never have happened.
Cameron could have seen off UKIP considering they hardly had any representation in parliament he should not have risen to the bait but what he should have done was shown tangible, actual action to address the issues even he must have known are bubbling under the surface. If May held abother referendum tomorrow knowing what we know now, I am confident we would he remaining. Johnson and Gove proved themselves to be the dogs that caught the car and Farage is not even an MP and for all his bluster and bullshit about having worked in commerce, he hasn't done so for a long time and certainly not to any extent that he is an expert, more an opportunist gobshite
The government and to be honest, society, needs to open up about the issues that caused millions of people to tick the leave box else we will never progress. All this nonsense about alt-right Nazis and left wing snowflakes is bollocks, people are allowed to be different and have different opinions and views. If our leaders don't address the issues or are blind to them having another referendum will be a disaster
I agree with all of that too...with the exception another referendum would result in a Remain outcome. I'd like to think so obviously but I think we'd just have the same old bollocks in the Mail et al and the same old soundbites and lies from Farage, etc. and, because it's what people want to believe, the outcome would still be Leave. The thing that might sway it is the demographics I suppose.
Ireland didn't have multiple referendums until they got the "right" result. This is a perpuated by the uninformed or the deliberately disingenuous.
They held a referendum on whether to accept the treaty. The Irish people said no. They were asked why and then the treaty was renegotiated to satisfy their concerns.
Another referendum was held to see if the Irish people where happy with the amended treaty and they voted yes.
This is perfectly acceptable in a properly functioning democracy. The fact people can't understand that tells you everything you need to know about the state of our democracy.
Even more telling is that many Brexiters will claim they voted leave because the EU isn't democratic, whilst blithely ignoring the major deficiencies in our own democracy.
I actually agree with a much of the original post but this whole myth around the Irish rerunning referendums really annoys me as it feeds directly into the whole 'EU=bullying undemocratic dictatorship' narrative spouted by Leavers.
Without checking admittedly, but I'm pretty sure none of the votes held on the treaties were about the adoption of the euro either.
Breaking my own rule to not contribute here
I could be wrong and I probably am about Ireland and the euro, the main guts of my post was to say it's obvious the political establishment did not want the result they got. As someone who isn't part of that I just see they still haven't got it, the vote should never have happened.
Cameron could have seen off UKIP considering they hardly had any representation in parliament he should not have risen to the bait but what he should have done was shown tangible, actual action to address the issues even he must have known are bubbling under the surface. If May held abother referendum tomorrow knowing what we know now, I am confident we would he remaining. Johnson and Gove proved themselves to be the dogs that caught the car and Farage is not even an MP and for all his bluster and bullshit about having worked in commerce, he hasn't done so for a long time and certainly not to any extent that he is an expert, more an opportunist gobshite
The government and to be honest, society, needs to open up about the issues that caused millions of people to tick the leave box else we will never progress. All this nonsense about alt-right Nazis and left wing snowflakes is bollocks, people are allowed to be different and have different opinions and views. If our leaders don't address the issues or are blind to them having another referendum will be a disaster
I agree with all of that too...with the exception another referendum would result in a Remain outcome. I'd like to think so obviously but I think we'd just have the same old bollocks in the Mail et al and the same old soundbites and lies from Farage, etc. and, because it's what people want to believe, the outcome would still be Leave. The thing that might sway it is the demographics I suppose.
We live in strange old times.
I agree with your conclusion and why as a Leaver I am in favour of another referendum. Asking people to carry on with unrestricted immigration, subsidising the EU to the tune of 9 billion a year and having a distant and unaccountable Court make decisions that affect our lives and you will get the same result-except this time it should be an instruction to leave whatever.
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
JRM may have an education but so what? He spouts garbage but because he does so in an antiquated accent and suit he somehow deserves to be taken more seriously. Intelligence and education are not the same thing ?
Approx 50% of our PMs attended Eton or Harrow. This either suggests that this country is run by an elite or that those who attend these schools are super intelligent?
I imagine someone on here will tell me that Bojo and JRM are like Trump not part of the elite.
Good luck Seth Plum, Bournemouth Addick, Red in SE8, Muttley etc. Guess you will be marching instead of watching Charlton v Barnsley1
I will be at the football. I have no enthusiasm for another vote, peoples or referendum or whatever. However another vote might be the least worst of the options that might be ahead.
Good luck Seth Plum, Bournemouth Addick, Red in SE8, Muttley etc. Guess you will be marching instead of watching Charlton v Barnsley1
There was a chance this was going to be my first match of the season. For reasons that have nothing to do with the march that is no longer the case. But I sense you are trying to make a point. Not sure what it is though.
Ireland didn't have multiple referendums until they got the "right" result. This is a perpuated by the uninformed or the deliberately disingenuous.
They held a referendum on whether to accept the treaty. The Irish people said no. They were asked why and then the treaty was renegotiated to satisfy their concerns.
Another referendum was held to see if the Irish people where happy with the amended treaty and they voted yes.
This is perfectly acceptable in a properly functioning democracy. The fact people can't understand that tells you everything you need to know about the state of our democracy.
Even more telling is that many Brexiters will claim they voted leave because the EU isn't democratic, whilst blithely ignoring the major deficiencies in our own democracy.
I actually agree with a much of the original post but this whole myth around the Irish rerunning referendums really annoys me as it feeds directly into the whole 'EU=bullying undemocratic dictatorship' narrative spouted by Leavers.
Without checking admittedly, but I'm pretty sure none of the votes held on the treaties were about the adoption of the euro either.
Breaking my own rule to not contribute here
I could be wrong and I probably am about Ireland and the euro, the main guts of my post was to say it's obvious the political establishment did not want the result they got. As someone who isn't part of that I just see they still haven't got it, the vote should never have happened.
Cameron could have seen off UKIP considering they hardly had any representation in parliament he should not have risen to the bait but what he should have done was shown tangible, actual action to address the issues even he must have known are bubbling under the surface. If May held abother referendum tomorrow knowing what we know now, I am confident we would he remaining. Johnson and Gove proved themselves to be the dogs that caught the car and Farage is not even an MP and for all his bluster and bullshit about having worked in commerce, he hasn't done so for a long time and certainly not to any extent that he is an expert, more an opportunist gobshite
The government and to be honest, society, needs to open up about the issues that caused millions of people to tick the leave box else we will never progress. All this nonsense about alt-right Nazis and left wing snowflakes is bollocks, people are allowed to be different and have different opinions and views. If our leaders don't address the issues or are blind to them having another referendum will be a disaster
I agree with all of that too...with the exception another referendum would result in a Remain outcome. I'd like to think so obviously but I think we'd just have the same old bollocks in the Mail et al and the same old soundbites and lies from Farage, etc. and, because it's what people want to believe, the outcome would still be Leave. The thing that might sway it is the demographics I suppose.
We live in strange old times.
New Editor (pro remain) at the Mail might just make all the difference 😁
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
JRM may have an education but so what? He spouts garbage but because he does so in an antiquated accent and suit he somehow deserves to be taken more seriously. Intelligence and education are not the same thing ?
Approx 50% of our PMs attended Eton or Harrow. This either suggests that this country is run by an elite or that those who attend these schools are super intelligent?
I imagine someone on here will tell me that Bojo and JRM are like Trump not part of the elite.
I look forward to JRM as PM as he has all the qualities needed:
He speaks slowly He wears a double breasted suit He has a large private income and understands hedge funds He doesn't raise his voice He understands Latin He takes good care of his nanny He doesn't have self doubt He gives his children obscure names He has strong religious beliefs
You forgot Eton educated.
sorry, I forgot you're not allowed to be "educated" anymore. Fwiw I know JRM will never be PM because of the way he speaks so its all academic (see what I did there) anyway.
Katie Price for PM !!!
Fully support the idea that Prime Ministers should be educated. What’s not sitting with me comfortably though is the fact that Eton College is one school in the UK and yet it is disproportionately represented in the House of Commons on the front benches and out of a total of 54 Prime Ministers the staggering figure of 19 were educated at Eton.
Now that’s quite some coincidence or something else is working here.
I will also add that I do worry that too many people equate speaking with a plummy accent as being a sign of intelligence. But the British do still like in the main to doff our caps.
Top positions being filled from The best schools seems reasonable to me.
I've always known you were a Tory bastard but I never took you for a lickspittle.
I'm not sure why the government doesn't hold a referendum for its own good. Whatever it negotiates, it is going to cause uproar within its ranks with and it is very likely it will be defeated. If May just says - look I am trying to do a deal and everybody is undermining me from both sides and making it impossible. Reluctantly, I need to have a vote to give me a mandate one way or the other. I think that would be understandable.
Now we know it isn't in the governments interests to have an election, but what would a vote do? Well at the very least it would provide a possibility for there to be something to shut up the agitators. If it was a clear leave, it would kill the remain argument. If it was a clear remain, a few would whinge but nobody could argue that democracy hasn't spoken. May could always say that she tried her best to avoid it but parliament kept throwing in spanners. As long as the vote is clear (and it might not be), but if it is, it would shut everybody up.
And whatever the decision, both parties could move Brexit off the top of their agendas and get on with what they should be getting on with. If we end up with a deal nobody wants or a no deal, the government will ultimately suffer for it so there isn't a logical incentive to keep flogging a dead horse.
I marched in 2003 in the largest anti war march in history. Well over 6 million in Europe joined me, which was nice. But futile.
You marched with Jezza and McDonnell then?
I never saw them. Were they there? Never heard from them at the time either. Remember Tony Benn - proper Labour - and someone I respected despite his difficulties, Charles Kennedy was there though I didn't hear his speech til later.
Remember Cookie make a speech...the only dissenter in the whole Labour cabinet IIRR, .and that vile woman Tosser Jowell tried to disrupt us.
I'm not sure why the government doesn't hold a referendum for its own good. Whatever it negotiates, it is going to cause uproar within its ranks with and it is very likely it will be defeated. If May just says - look I am trying to do a deal and everybody is undermining me from both sides and making it impossible. Reluctantly, I need to have a vote to give me a mandate one way or the other. I think that would be understandable.
Now we know it isn't in the governments interests to have an election, but what would a vote do? Well at the very least it would provide a possibility for there to be something to shut up the agitators. If it was a clear leave, it would kill the remain argument. If it was a clear remain, a few would whinge but nobody could argue that democracy hasn't spoken. May could always say that she tried her best to avoid it but parliament kept throwing in spanners. As long as the vote is clear (and it might not be), but if it is, it would shut everybody up.
And whatever the decision, both parties could move Brexit off the top of their agendas and get on with what they should be getting on with. If we end up with a deal nobody wants or a no deal, the government will ultimately suffer for it so there isn't a logical incentive to keep flogging a dead horse.
What is in it for May?
Well that is interesting but remember both main parties stood on Leave manifestos only last year, when all the current difficulties were already apparent. So they are mandated in a referendum to campaign for Leave, or should it just be a free for all?
I'm not sure why the government doesn't hold a referendum for its own good. Whatever it negotiates, it is going to cause uproar within its ranks with and it is very likely it will be defeated. If May just says - look I am trying to do a deal and everybody is undermining me from both sides and making it impossible. Reluctantly, I need to have a vote to give me a mandate one way or the other. I think that would be understandable.
Now we know it isn't in the governments interests to have an election, but what would a vote do? Well at the very least it would provide a possibility for there to be something to shut up the agitators. If it was a clear leave, it would kill the remain argument. If it was a clear remain, a few would whinge but nobody could argue that democracy hasn't spoken. May could always say that she tried her best to avoid it but parliament kept throwing in spanners. As long as the vote is clear (and it might not be), but if it is, it would shut everybody up.
And whatever the decision, both parties could move Brexit off the top of their agendas and get on with what they should be getting on with. If we end up with a deal nobody wants or a no deal, the government will ultimately suffer for it so there isn't a logical incentive to keep flogging a dead horse.
What is in it for May?
Well that is interesting but remember both main parties stood on Leave manifestos only last year, when all the current difficulties were already apparent. So they are mandated in a referendum to campaign for Leave, or should it just be a free for all?
I am no supporter of Corbyn and think he has taken Labour backwards but the idea that everyone who voted Labour supports Brexit or even Corbyn's own stance on it is very simplistic. Clearly people were thinking of things other than as well as Brexit in the last election and it's pretty disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
I'm not sure why the government doesn't hold a referendum for its own good. Whatever it negotiates, it is going to cause uproar within its ranks with and it is very likely it will be defeated. If May just says - look I am trying to do a deal and everybody is undermining me from both sides and making it impossible. Reluctantly, I need to have a vote to give me a mandate one way or the other. I think that would be understandable.
Now we know it isn't in the governments interests to have an election, but what would a vote do? Well at the very least it would provide a possibility for there to be something to shut up the agitators. If it was a clear leave, it would kill the remain argument. If it was a clear remain, a few would whinge but nobody could argue that democracy hasn't spoken. May could always say that she tried her best to avoid it but parliament kept throwing in spanners. As long as the vote is clear (and it might not be), but if it is, it would shut everybody up.
And whatever the decision, both parties could move Brexit off the top of their agendas and get on with what they should be getting on with. If we end up with a deal nobody wants or a no deal, the government will ultimately suffer for it so there isn't a logical incentive to keep flogging a dead horse.
What is in it for May?
Well that is interesting but remember both main parties stood on Leave manifestos only last year, when all the current difficulties were already apparent. So they are mandated in a referendum to campaign for Leave, or should it just be a free for all?
I am no supporter of Corbyn and think he has taken Labour backwards but the idea that everyone who voted Labour supports Brexit or even Corbyn's own stance on it is very simplistic. Clearly people were thinking of things other than as well as Brexit in the last election and its pretty disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
Neither Party has a mandate to campaign for Remain, so how would it work?
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-eighth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland#First_Lisbon_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Nice#The_Irish_referendums As a country we had concerns with both treaties and the possible expansion of the powers of the EU over our sovereignty. We rejected the treaties. Our government listed to us, negotiated improved terms specific to the concerns of the people and once these issues were addressed we voted yes.
A very grown up approach to the EU. Its notable that we have among the highest EU approval among all members despite how we feel about the terms forced upon us during the bank bail out.
nothing to do with the fact that the vast majority of "the common man" don't go into politics because they are blinkered & think its a rich mans "thing" and some are even blinkered enough to think that "speaks well" means "toff" and therefore up their own arses.
Also many go straight into manual work & stay there for the rest of their lives.
seems the same old prejudices still exist.
We live in strange old times.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Approx 50% of our PMs attended Eton or Harrow. This either suggests that this country is run by an elite or that those who attend these schools are super intelligent?
I imagine someone on here will tell me that Bojo and JRM are like Trump not part of the elite.
Guess you will be marching instead of watching Charlton v Barnsley1
I have no enthusiasm for another vote, peoples or referendum or whatever.
However another vote might be the least worst of the options that might be ahead.
Now we know it isn't in the governments interests to have an election, but what would a vote do? Well at the very least it would provide a possibility for there to be something to shut up the agitators. If it was a clear leave, it would kill the remain argument. If it was a clear remain, a few would whinge but nobody could argue that democracy hasn't spoken. May could always say that she tried her best to avoid it but parliament kept throwing in spanners. As long as the vote is clear (and it might not be), but if it is, it would shut everybody up.
And whatever the decision, both parties could move Brexit off the top of their agendas and get on with what they should be getting on with. If we end up with a deal nobody wants or a no deal, the government will ultimately suffer for it so there isn't a logical incentive to keep flogging a dead horse.
What is in it for May?
Remember Tony Benn - proper Labour - and someone I respected despite his difficulties, Charles Kennedy was there though I didn't hear his speech til later.
Remember Cookie make a speech...the only dissenter in the whole Labour cabinet IIRR, .and that vile woman Tosser Jowell tried to disrupt us.
I suppose you believed Saint Tony?
Approx.