The Labour party has now an important role to play. It has had opportunities to side with Tory remainers and defeat the government in key votes in the past but has tabled its own amendments that they can't support. But I think this is honest and people who say the six tests are asking the impossible may be right, but it is not unfair to demand them seeing as the government said they would deliver them.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
The Liberals sided with the Tories in 2010 for the good of the country ostensibly and as a result they got mashed in 2015. Labour do have that firmly in mind. I have always thought that the 'six tests' we're unconvincing but in opposition you have the luxury of saying anything, which is a shame because Labour should be attacking this rank and vile bunch of evil Tories. If I were Labour my strategy would be oppose the Tories and hope to get a general election out of it.
We can't keep having general elections - I'm still not really clear what Labour's position is on Brexit? Corbyn is not a fan of the EU and if he were to become PM he'd have to stop behaving like a student politico.
We had a referendum which we either have to go with or admit that we've f***ed up and revisit our options. I can't see much leadership on this at present which is very worrying.
If we are going to leave the EU it can't be done in such a half-arsed manner.
Being in the customs union means we can't negotiate our own trade deals, instead having to rely on the deals the EU negotiates on our behalf. Some people think we should stay in the customs union and continue to benefit from the 750+ deals and treaties from which we already benefit. Some people think we should be outside the customs union and make our own deals. Here are a few pointers.
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
You ignore the elephant in room. The Euro. Germany benefits considerably as an exporter from the Euro being weaker than it ought to be, against a hypothetical Deutschmark. While the German economy itself is strong, the value of the Euro is dragged down by the likes of Greece and Italy who are up to their ears in debt, unemployment and poor productivity. Not only can they not compete with German industry, their weak economies help to devalue the Euro which only increases Germany's advantage.
But the value of the Euro shouldn't affect the ability of the UK to compete - it has (with the exception of its abortive membership of the ERM) always been in the UK's gift to devalue the Pound (along with all the other associated economic levers), should it so desire, to create a competitive advantage for its industry.
I could see your argument if the UK was in the Eurozone.
@Missed It also ignores the point that Germany has been smashing it out of the park in terms of exports for decades. Not because of the Euro as much as they manufacture stuff people want and are good at setting up and maintaining the deals to sell it.
I'm busy today. here's two minutes worth of google instead.
The Labour party has now an important role to play. It has had opportunities to side with Tory remainers and defeat the government in key votes in the past but has tabled its own amendments that they can't support. But I think this is honest and people who say the six tests are asking the impossible may be right, but it is not unfair to demand them seeing as the government said they would deliver them.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
I think he has to, but I am not totally confident. We shall see.
I’ve said it all along. Corbyn is as anti EU as Rees-Mogg. Having the Tories do a brexit and in doing so open the door for him to come in and only pick up the pieces he wants with little or no blame is like a dream come true for him.
I’m a labour voter and in order to rid the country of this shambolic and dishonest government I will probably vote Labour next time but I don’t think Corbyn would make a better deal than May. He has his own agenda on Brexit and I don’t like it. Why ? Because the man won’t tell us what it actually is. I trust him as far as I could throw Boris Johnson.
And you need everybody to be united as to what they want. I mean let's face facts - May got a deal agreed and when she took it back the DUP and rebels in her own party kicked up a stink. You can't have this - it makes the whole thing impossible. As a business, if I agree a price with a customer I can't say I have changed my mind and raise it. Hands were shaken and how can anybody expect the EU to move once that happens.
And you need everybody to be united as to what they want. I mean let's face facts - May got a deal agreed and when she took it back the DUP and rebels in her own party kicked up a stink. You can't have this - it makes the whole thing impossible. As a business, if I agree a price with a customer I can't say I have changed my mind and raise it. Hands were shaken and how can anybody expect the EU to move once that happens.
This is ultimately the issue - if Parliament can't unite on a deal then negotiations seem utterly pointless. A 'no deal' Brexit looms.
And you need everybody to be united as to what they want. I mean let's face facts - May got a deal agreed and when she took it back the DUP and rebels in her own party kicked up a stink. You can't have this - it makes the whole thing impossible. As a business, if I agree a price with a customer I can't say I have changed my mind and raise it. Hands were shaken and how can anybody expect the EU to move once that happens.
Agree. May has her hands tied by the split in her own party. She is always having to do a double negotiation. How can that ever work ? She should have been stronger and called out the loony’s by saying support me or I call an election as this can’t work. She as most politicians will put party over country every time. That’s what’s so galling. Brexit of any flavour will be worse than our current position yet politiking is still the order of the day.
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
Whatever deal she comes up with the DUP or attention seeking twats such as Bojo or Moggy will attempt to sabotage it - she might as well just accept nothing will be agreed upon.
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
She scuppered that herself with her liking of fatuous soundbites. No deal is better than a bad deal.
Add to that Brexit means Brexit and do you remember strong and stable ?
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
She scuppered that herself with her liking of fatuous soundbites. No deal is better than a bad deal.
Add to that Brexit means Brexit and do you remember strong and stable ?
And the magic money tree!
To be fair all we get is soundbites from politicians in the age of twitter.
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
She scuppered that herself with her liking of fatuous soundbites. No deal is better than a bad deal.
Add to that Brexit means Brexit and do you remember strong and stable ?
And the magic money tree!
To be fair all we get is soundbites from politicians in the age of twitter.
What she should have done was say - this is the deal we have agreed with the EU in principle. Support me or don't support me but it is the best deal we can get. And things should have developed from there.
She scuppered that herself with her liking of fatuous soundbites. No deal is better than a bad deal.
Add to that Brexit means Brexit and do you remember strong and stable ?
Just watching The Politics show on BBC2. Had a bloke on there who has written a book about the 2017 Election. Said that TM's press statement outside No.10 when she announced the GE didn't originally have the GE being about "strong & stable" but about something else (wasn't listening fully) but at the last moment it was changed by her "advisors" and she went on the "strong & stable" theme.
The Irish foreign minister yesterday reminded the UK that last December it gave an undertaking in writing regarding the backstop with no time limit attached. Should the UK break that undertaking?
The Irish foreign minister yesterday reminded the UK that last December it gave an undertaking in writing regarding the backstop with no time limit attached. Should the UK break that undertaking?
No it shouldn't but it shouldn't have given the undertaking knowing the issues it had. I find it incredible that anybody can expect the EU to give ground after an agreement has been reached. And seeing as this has all been one incompetent balls up from beginning to end, surely we need another referendum or election to try to give the government - whatever colour it is enough power to conclude this one way or another.
You can't ignore the balls up, whether you are a Brexiter or Remainer surely!
The Irish foreign minister yesterday reminded the UK that last December it gave an undertaking in writing regarding the backstop with no time limit attached. Should the UK break that undertaking?
I mean - it offends common sense. The prime minister has been told she has to come up with fresh ideas by EU leaders to solve teh Irish Border issue. Is she going to Brussels today with fresh ideas? Just imagine there is this fresh idea that the combined wisdom within the country hasn't been able to come up with by now!
All we get from Brexiters is a sci -fi solution that has been investigated and found not to be possible at this time within multiple investigations and reports. If it was possible, the government would chose it as it simplifies things for them. They still say, ah but I think it is possible. But all the expert reports say it isn't, but idiots, yes I don't use the term lightly, like Stewart and Johnson mumble away that they think it could be with no detail or evidence. The fact is, there isn't a magic solution and an answer needs to be found within the options available.
I mean - it offends common sense. The prime minister has been told she has to come up with fresh ideas by EU leaders to solve teh Irish Border issue. Is she going to Brussels today with fresh ideas? Just imagine there is this fresh idea that the combined wisdom within the country hasn't been able to come up with by now!
All we get from Brexiters is a sci -fi solution that has been investigated and found not to be possible at this time within multiple investigations and reports. If it was possible, the government would chose it as it simplifies things for them. They still say, ah but I think it is possible. But all the expert reports say it isn't, but idiots, yes I don't use the term lightly, like Stewart and Johnson mumble away that they think it could be with no detail or evidence. The fact is, there isn't a magic solution and an answer needs to be found within the options available.
People such as Moggy and Bojo are treating this whole thing as a game and a chance for some jolly japes and a bit of mischief making. They don't have anything constructive to offer and would probably reject any deal that was negotiated as a way of attention seeking.
I mean - it offends common sense. The prime minister has been told she has to come up with fresh ideas by EU leaders to solve teh Irish Border issue. Is she going to Brussels today with fresh ideas? Just imagine there is this fresh idea that the combined wisdom within the country hasn't been able to come up with by now!
All we get from Brexiters is a sci -fi solution that has been investigated and found not to be possible at this time within multiple investigations and reports. If it was possible, the government would chose it as it simplifies things for them. They still say, ah but I think it is possible. But all the expert reports say it isn't, but idiots, yes I don't use the term lightly, like Stewart and Johnson mumble away that they think it could be with no detail or evidence. The fact is, there isn't a magic solution and an answer needs to be found within the options available.
May’s adress to the EU leaders this evening will be a national embarrassment.
I mean - it offends common sense. The prime minister has been told she has to come up with fresh ideas by EU leaders to solve teh Irish Border issue. Is she going to Brussels today with fresh ideas? Just imagine there is this fresh idea that the combined wisdom within the country hasn't been able to come up with by now!
All we get from Brexiters is a sci -fi solution that has been investigated and found not to be possible at this time within multiple investigations and reports. If it was possible, the government would chose it as it simplifies things for them. They still say, ah but I think it is possible. But all the expert reports say it isn't, but idiots, yes I don't use the term lightly, like Stewart and Johnson mumble away that they think it could be with no detail or evidence. The fact is, there isn't a magic solution and an answer needs to be found within the options available.
May’s adress to the EU leaders this evening will be a national embarrassment.
I'm not really sure what she can do if she can't get backing from her own government. What does she get out of doing this job and being constantly undermined?
Comments
We had a referendum which we either have to go with or admit that we've f***ed up and revisit our options. I can't see much leadership on this at present which is very worrying.
If we are going to leave the EU it can't be done in such a half-arsed manner.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2018/01/23/the-german-swindle-built-into-the-euro/#7424127027da
https://www.businessinsider.com/germany-benefits-from-the-eurozone-2011-4?IR=T
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-trump-euro-analysis/euro-may-be-too-weak-for-germany-but-too-strong-for-others-idUKKBN15I1ND
I want a second referendum with a stop brexit and pretend it never happened option... No chance on earth of that
I’m a labour voter and in order to rid the country of this shambolic and dishonest government I will probably vote Labour next time but I don’t think Corbyn would make a better deal than May. He has his own agenda on Brexit and I don’t like it. Why ? Because the man won’t tell us what it actually is. I trust him as far as I could throw Boris Johnson.
Our politicians are twats.
Add to that Brexit means Brexit and do you remember strong and stable ?
To be fair all we get is soundbites from politicians in the age of twitter.
Should the UK break that undertaking?
You can't ignore the balls up, whether you are a Brexiter or Remainer surely!
All we get from Brexiters is a sci -fi solution that has been investigated and found not to be possible at this time within multiple investigations and reports. If it was possible, the government would chose it as it simplifies things for them. They still say, ah but I think it is possible. But all the expert reports say it isn't, but idiots, yes I don't use the term lightly, like Stewart and Johnson mumble away that they think it could be with no detail or evidence. The fact is, there isn't a magic solution and an answer needs to be found within the options available.
The whole spectacle is pathetic.