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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • I think an in out referendum will be May's best move.
  • se9addick said:

    It wont get the numbers, but I'm sure that is the plan.

    Really? Of the 650 MPs in the Commons you think more than 325 would vote “no deal” rather than the scenario I outlined? I really don’t, I actually don’t even think it would be particularly close.
    Not when May effectively said yesterday that turning down the deal might trigger more negotiations of more likely a referendum
  • edited October 2018
    Parliament has already got agreement on having a vote on a no deal scenario, so they can send the government back to the table. The government would most likely call a referendum in those circumstances. It would be hard for either side not to respect the result of that although it is unlikely to stop the split in the country.
  • In my opinion there is no deal that would get through Parliament.

    Onto a couple of points that make me love this thread:

    AfD getting 11% means that immigration isn't key in Germany, although in a country try where a referendum was won purely on hatred of immigrants, the anti immigration party got 12% of the vote in the 2015 election.

    David Cameron is a scumbag for calling a referendum and should be in jail. Theresa May must now call an in/out referendum.

    I've met lots of Brexit voters by the way, they just have different opinions from us. Opinions are one of the things that make us human. Of all the Brexit voters I have spoken to about Brexit, none of them have come across to me as racist, or deluded or misled, and all have been able to have a respectful conversation with me about what our differences of opinion are, including a lot of points in which we agree but on the balance have come to a decision that is different.

    That's life.
  • edited October 2018
    Barnier has just said more time is needed to complete the Brexit deal and it almost certainly won't be completed tomorrow.
    More likely next week.
  • Huskaris said:

    In my opinion there is no deal that would get through Parliament.

    Onto a couple of points that make me love this thread:

    AfD getting 11% means that immigration isn't key in Germany, although in a country try where a referendum was won purely on hatred of immigrants, the anti immigration party got 12% of the vote in the 2015 election.

    David Cameron is a scumbag for calling a referendum and should be in jail. Theresa May must now call an in/out referendum.

    I've met lots of Brexit voters by the way, they just have different opinions from us. Opinions are one of the things that make us human. Of all the Brexit voters I have spoken to about Brexit, none of them have come across to me as racist, or deluded or misled, and all have been able to have a respectful conversation with me about what our differences of opinion are, including a lot of points in which we agree but on the balance have come to a decision that is different.

    That's life.

    I think to be fair when the Brexit referendum was held voters on both sides were pretty clueless as to what it meant. The referendum question itself was far too simplistic.

    All that's really happened since then is that our politicians have demonstrated how clueless they are.

    We can have as many debates as we like but unfortunately it's still the same clowns presiding over the process. The only real decisive action has been Cameron's bottle job.
  • I think there are people with emotional attachments to the EU and to leaving it. There is far more realism and pragmatism on the remain side though.
  • edited October 2018

    Parliament has already got agreement on having a vote on a no deal scenario, so they can send the government back to the table. The government would most likely call a referendum in those circumstances. It would be hard for either side not to respect the result of that although it is unlikely to stop the split in the country.

    I think there would be as many problems with that as a possibility as there is with ‘The People’s Vote’ campaign proposal.

    As the link below to a BBC ‘Reality Check’ page explains:

    “That's because a referendum requires an Act of Parliament, which needs to be voted through by the majority of MPs…..

    There's also the referendum question itself and the options on the ballot paper to consider.

    These need to be presented "clearly, simply and neutrally", according to the Electoral Commission.

    Justine Greening argues for three options: accept a negotiated Brexit deal, stay in the EU, or leave with no deal…..”

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44847404

    However, it’s potentially even more complicated even than that.

    For there to be the full range of choice I reckon there would need to be around 5 options:

    1. Whatever Theresa May might agree, or if she doesn’t a ‘no deal’ Brexit;

    2. The Tory Brexiteers’ Canada Plus’ proposal;

    3. Labour’s ‘6 points’;

    4. The often mentioned Norway/EFTA option;

    5. And finally, staying in the EU on current terms as we are now.

    But of course - even if all the obstacles to agreeing to hold a 2nd referendum and what question(s)/option(s) might be offered could be overcome (and in time) – you can’t really have a referendum with more than 2 options; otherwise we’d probably end up even more divided than now.

    If Parliament rejects whatever Theresa May ends up with then the only way out of that constitutional crisis would be a General Election with the various parties putting forward their proposals on Brexit (along with all the other national issues).

    Whether any of them would end up with a overall majority is another matter.....
  • I think there are people with emotional attachments to the EU and to leaving it. There is far more realism and pragmatism on the remain side though.

    Without going into the pros and cons of being in the EU I'm still astonished that our parliamentarians didn't really have a clue what the Brexit process entailed and how complex it was when they began the process. Two years on from the referendum we don't seem to have made much progress.

    Having a buffoon like Farage heading up the anti-Eu faction hasn't really helped. For a man who supposedly hates the EU he's happy to work as an MEP for an organisation he supposedly despises, he's happy to take generous expenses from them and he'll see out his days on a generous EU pension. No doubt he'll end up living on the European mainland. Just like Bojo he loves to criticise but runs a mile when it comes to doing anything constructive.

    I realise there are arguments for and against the EU but sadly it seems to have been largely idiots leading the debate. I'm assuming those who seem most complacent about it will be okay whatever happens.

    We seem to have reached a stage where everyone is just crossing their fingera hoping everything will be okay.

  • A couple of things that I've seen that interest me (oh, and make me feel at least a little smug and self-satisfied - but, in me, that's really quite an endearing quality).

    https://garybainbridge.com/2018/10/10/column-october-11-2018/

    https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1051411763680473090
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  • What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚
  • edited October 2018

    What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    I'm reasonably certain that the case Cameron and Osborne (who I argue definitely did not campaign on my behalf - in the same way that Leave supporters can argue for or against statements made by Farage, Johnson, etc.) argued was predicated upon the UK seeking to leave the EU virtually immediately.

    I do feel that I should point out both that the UK has not yet left yet and that jobs that used to be in the UK have already gone abroad (while companies with an international footprint are currently holding off on making investment decisions - if they decide against the UK, I'd argue that the impact would be greater than the, admittedly very positive, growth in employment).

    Mind you, I believe that a badly managed Brexit (like the one currently being prepared) will have a hugely damaging impact, beyond the economy, especially over here.
  • This thread moving forward

    I’d like to take this opportunity to try and set out some guidelines re; using this thread moving forward. I appreciate it will be difficult as this topic more than any others seems to bring out the worst in us, and I include myself in that.

    It seems that on the whole, the majority of the people that post on here are pro remain (again, that includes me). Therefore I would like for all those that post on here regularly who are pro remain to consider that we have one or two on here who voted to leave and they are not morons, fools, racists or little englanders, and should be allowed to come on here without being rounded on and shouted down or classified as one of the above. It’s lazy stereotyping and we’re better than that. That’s goes the other way as well.

    For those of us who are regular posters on here, we should know or have an idea of who sits on which side of the debate. Therefore, can we please go out of our way to not deliberately wind each other up, or seek to get a rise out of each other. I’m of the opinion that your political leanings are your political leanings and it’s unlikely you’ll be swayed to change them debating with fellow Charlton fans on this forum, and what is more likely, is you’ll end up in spat on here and it will spoil yours and other posters use of the forum.

    This isn’t aimed at any one individual or individuals and I am not looking to impose any sort of jurisdiction on what you say or limit freedom of speech. All I’m asking is that you think about what you post before you respond to someone who has an opposing view to yours.

    My personal commitment is that I’m choosing not to post on this thread anymore, simply moderate and try my best to keep a balanced environment so people of all views feel they can contribute

    Thanks all
  • se9addick said:

    What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    Right, unemployment levels are low while we’re in the EU, why would you want to change that?
    Clearly brexit isn’t having the effect on businesses that remain promised. Whilst brexit is clearly a clusterfuck thanks to the politicians, it’s good that the business community is holding their nerve.
  • Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
  • What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    You do know that Brexit hasn't happened yet?
    Yes sir. You do know remain lost don’t you?
  • se9addick said:

    What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    Right, unemployment levels are low while we’re in the EU, why would you want to change that?
    Clearly brexit isn’t having the effect on businesses that remain promised. Whilst brexit is clearly a clusterfuck thanks to the politicians, it’s good that the business community is holding their nerve.
    Right, but Brexit hasn’t happened yet...
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  • What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    I'm reasonably certain that the case Cameron and Osborne (who I argue definitely did not campaign on my behalf - in the same way that Leave supporters can argue for or against statements made by Farage, Johnson, etc.) argued was predicated upon the UK seeking to leave the EU virtually immediately.

    I do feel that I should point out both that the UK has not yet left yet and that jobs that used to be in the UK have already gone abroad (while companies with an international footprint are currently holding off on making investment decisions - if they decide against the UK, I'd argue that the impact would be greater than the, admittedly very positive, growth in employment).

    Mind you, I believe that a badly managed Brexit (like the one currently being prepared) will have a hugely damaging impact, beyond the economy, especially over here.
    Leave out-campaigned remain, undeniable.

    Not sure I agree. Sounds like more remain conjecture!

    Yes I agree with you there and as I’ve said previously, a brexiteer should have been leading the negotiations rather than a remainer in May. My dad is from Fermanagh and I truly hope you guys don’t suffer from brexit.
  • cabbles said:

    This thread moving forward

    I’d like to take this opportunity to try and set out some guidelines re; using this thread moving forward. I appreciate it will be difficult as this topic more than any others seems to bring out the worst in us, and I include myself in that.

    It seems that on the whole, the majority of the people that post on here are pro remain (again, that includes me). Therefore I would like for all those that post on here regularly who are pro remain to consider that we have one or two on here who voted to leave and they are not morons, fools, racists or little englanders, and should be allowed to come on here without being rounded on and shouted down or classified as one of the above. It’s lazy stereotyping and we’re better than that. That’s goes the other way as well.

    For those of us who are regular posters on here, we should know or have an idea of who sits on which side of the debate. Therefore, can we please go out of our way to not deliberately wind each other up, or seek to get a rise out of each other. I’m of the opinion that your political leanings are your political leanings and it’s unlikely you’ll be swayed to change them debating with fellow Charlton fans on this forum, and what is more likely, is you’ll end up in spat on here and it will spoil yours and other posters use of the forum.

    This isn’t aimed at any one individual or individuals and I am not looking to impose any sort of jurisdiction on what you say or limit freedom of speech. All I’m asking is that you think about what you post before you respond to someone who has an opposing view to yours.

    My personal commitment is that I’m choosing not to post on this thread anymore, simply moderate and try my best to keep a balanced environment so people of all views feel they can contribute

    Thanks all

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment entirely I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to express your own opinions on a subject that's of interest to you. Carry on Brexiting!

    Ps can we add traitors and collaborators to the list of banned phrases too please?

    ;-)
  • cabbles said:

    This thread moving forward

    I’d like to take this opportunity to try and set out some guidelines re; using this thread moving forward. I appreciate it will be difficult as this topic more than any others seems to bring out the worst in us, and I include myself in that.

    It seems that on the whole, the majority of the people that post on here are pro remain (again, that includes me). Therefore I would like for all those that post on here regularly who are pro remain to consider that we have one or two on here who voted to leave and they are not morons, fools, racists or little englanders, and should be allowed to come on here without being rounded on and shouted down or classified as one of the above. It’s lazy stereotyping and we’re better than that. That’s goes the other way as well.

    For those of us who are regular posters on here, we should know or have an idea of who sits on which side of the debate. Therefore, can we please go out of our way to not deliberately wind each other up, or seek to get a rise out of each other. I’m of the opinion that your political leanings are your political leanings and it’s unlikely you’ll be swayed to change them debating with fellow Charlton fans on this forum, and what is more likely, is you’ll end up in spat on here and it will spoil yours and other posters use of the forum.

    This isn’t aimed at any one individual or individuals and I am not looking to impose any sort of jurisdiction on what you say or limit freedom of speech. All I’m asking is that you think about what you post before you respond to someone who has an opposing view to yours.

    My personal commitment is that I’m choosing not to post on this thread anymore, simply moderate and try my best to keep a balanced environment so people of all views feel they can contribute

    Thanks all

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment entirely I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to express your own opinions on a subject that's of interest to you. Carry on Brexiting!

    Ps can we add traitors and collaborators to the list of banned phrases too please?

    ;-)
    p.p.s Blue passport remarks too?

    #voteleave :wink:
  • cabbles said:

    This thread moving forward

    I’d like to take this opportunity to try and set out some guidelines re; using this thread moving forward. I appreciate it will be difficult as this topic more than any others seems to bring out the worst in us, and I include myself in that.

    It seems that on the whole, the majority of the people that post on here are pro remain (again, that includes me). Therefore I would like for all those that post on here regularly who are pro remain to consider that we have one or two on here who voted to leave and they are not morons, fools, racists or little englanders, and should be allowed to come on here without being rounded on and shouted down or classified as one of the above. It’s lazy stereotyping and we’re better than that. That’s goes the other way as well.

    For those of us who are regular posters on here, we should know or have an idea of who sits on which side of the debate. Therefore, can we please go out of our way to not deliberately wind each other up, or seek to get a rise out of each other. I’m of the opinion that your political leanings are your political leanings and it’s unlikely you’ll be swayed to change them debating with fellow Charlton fans on this forum, and what is more likely, is you’ll end up in spat on here and it will spoil yours and other posters use of the forum.

    This isn’t aimed at any one individual or individuals and I am not looking to impose any sort of jurisdiction on what you say or limit freedom of speech. All I’m asking is that you think about what you post before you respond to someone who has an opposing view to yours.

    My personal commitment is that I’m choosing not to post on this thread anymore, simply moderate and try my best to keep a balanced environment so people of all views feel they can contribute

    Thanks all

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment entirely I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to express your own opinions on a subject that's of interest to you. Carry on Brexiting!

    Ps can we add traitors and collaborators to the list of banned phrases too please?

    ;-)
    Ha - I’m happy to take view from the sidelines from this point on. Again hope that none of you think I’m trying censure what you say on here, just take a minute to consider your response when responding to something you disagree with .

    All phrases such as the ones you reference and the ones I mentioned above aren’t helpful so yes, if we as a community can agree not to use any that would be quality

    We will get there :smile:
  • Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
  • What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚

    I'm reasonably certain that the case Cameron and Osborne (who I argue definitely did not campaign on my behalf - in the same way that Leave supporters can argue for or against statements made by Farage, Johnson, etc.) argued was predicated upon the UK seeking to leave the EU virtually immediately.

    I do feel that I should point out both that the UK has not yet left yet and that jobs that used to be in the UK have already gone abroad (while companies with an international footprint are currently holding off on making investment decisions - if they decide against the UK, I'd argue that the impact would be greater than the, admittedly very positive, growth in employment).

    Mind you, I believe that a badly managed Brexit (like the one currently being prepared) will have a hugely damaging impact, beyond the economy, especially over here.
    Leave out-campaigned remain, undeniable.

    Not sure I agree. Sounds like more remain conjecture!

    Yes I agree with you there and as I’ve said previously, a brexiteer should have been leading the negotiations rather than a remainer in May. My dad is from Fermanagh and I truly hope you guys don’t suffer from brexit.
    So a Brexiteer leading the negotiations would have persuaded the EU 27 to agree to compromise the integrity of the single market and lessen their commitment to the Republic of Ireland and the Good Friday agreement? Why would that be the case?
  • Surely David Davis was a Brexiter who was leading the negotiations, though he didn't seem to know what he was doing.
  • cabbles said:

    This thread moving forward

    I’d like to take this opportunity to try and set out some guidelines re; using this thread moving forward. I appreciate it will be difficult as this topic more than any others seems to bring out the worst in us, and I include myself in that.

    It seems that on the whole, the majority of the people that post on here are pro remain (again, that includes me). Therefore I would like for all those that post on here regularly who are pro remain to consider that we have one or two on here who voted to leave and they are not morons, fools, racists or little englanders, and should be allowed to come on here without being rounded on and shouted down or classified as one of the above. It’s lazy stereotyping and we’re better than that. That’s goes the other way as well.

    For those of us who are regular posters on here, we should know or have an idea of who sits on which side of the debate. Therefore, can we please go out of our way to not deliberately wind each other up, or seek to get a rise out of each other. I’m of the opinion that your political leanings are your political leanings and it’s unlikely you’ll be swayed to change them debating with fellow Charlton fans on this forum, and what is more likely, is you’ll end up in spat on here and it will spoil yours and other posters use of the forum.

    This isn’t aimed at any one individual or individuals and I am not looking to impose any sort of jurisdiction on what you say or limit freedom of speech. All I’m asking is that you think about what you post before you respond to someone who has an opposing view to yours.

    My personal commitment is that I’m choosing not to post on this thread anymore, simply moderate and try my best to keep a balanced environment so people of all views feel they can contribute

    Thanks all

    I don't want to be awkward but any chance you could tell me who they are.






    Only joking (you thick fucks).
  • se9addick said:

    But you are not Theresa May. She has to bother.

    She really doesn’t. I think the truly hardcore, Mogg type, Brexiteers are a noisy minority in her party and in the House. Trying to be all things to all people has been one of May’s real fatal flaws. Time to put something on the table that says we will leave the EU in March but remain in the customs union and single market during the “implementation period” which, if we don’t have a solution after the implementation period, then we stay in both until a solution is found and dare the House to vote it down in favour of a no deal alternative.
    Isn't that pretty much Labour Party policy?
  • Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Now I’ve been very clear, brexit means brexit.
This discussion has been closed.

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