What I find interesting is that none of the remainers on here have mentioned the last quarter unemployment figures released. For those of you that haven’t seen it, unemployment fell by 47k to August with youth unemployment at an all time low. I believe the remain campaign promised us a 500 - 800k spike in unemployment in the event of brexit. Still waiting for that guys 😚
Right, unemployment levels are low while we’re in the EU, why would you want to change that?
Clearly brexit isn’t having the effect on businesses that remain promised. Whilst brexit is clearly a clusterfuck thanks to the politicians, it’s good that the business community is holding their nerve.
Right, but Brexit hasn’t happened yet...
I don't understand like you why someone is debating the effect of Brexit when it hasn't actually happened. Am I missing something?
People keep telling me how well informed the electorate were over the referendum.
What is laughable is that some people think being in the single market is a bad thing. Brexiters were telling us that we would still have all the benefits of the single market prior to the referendum.
What is laughable is that some people think being in the single market is a bad thing. Brexiters were telling us that we would still have all the benefits of the single market prior to the referendum.
We still don't know what type of Brexit we're going to have - all seems to be going swimmingly. Hopefully somebody has a cunning plan.
Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
Because they feel it would prevent the UK from making deals with other countries.
But as 43% of our trade is with the EU and a good proportion of that trade is food imports it would solve the question of port hold ups and resolve the Irish border issue. Surely any deals that were made in addition would be just that Negotiatiated and therefore a deal by deal basis. Being outside the CU will not only be ridiculous in terms of red tape it will cost a small fortune. I just don’t get it.
She really doesn’t. I think the truly hardcore, Mogg type, Brexiteers are a noisy minority in her party and in the House. Trying to be all things to all people has been one of May’s real fatal flaws. Time to put something on the table that says we will leave the EU in March but remain in the customs union and single market during the “implementation period” which, if we don’t have a solution after the implementation period, then we stay in both until a solution is found and dare the House to vote it down in favour of a no deal alternative.
Isn't that pretty much Labour Party policy?
No, Labour Party policy is to pursue a customs union, not the customs union. Not sure what the difference is, think it’s basicslky status quo without freedom of movement - which the EU would never accept.
Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
Because they feel it would prevent the UK from making deals with other countries.
But as 43% of our trade is with the EU and a good proportion of that trade is food imports it would solve the question of port hold ups and resolve the Irish border issue. Surely any deals that were made in addition would be just that Negotiatiated and therefore a deal by deal basis. Being outside the CU will not only be ridiculous in terms of red tape it will cost a small fortune. I just don’t get it.
The Government have it all in hand and have planned for every eventuality. Too many doom-mongers about.
If you read the Daily Express you'll realise all will be okay.
Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
Because they feel it would prevent the UK from making deals with other countries.
But as 43% of our trade is with the EU and a good proportion of that trade is food imports it would solve the question of port hold ups and resolve the Irish border issue. Surely any deals that were made in addition would be just that Negotiatiated and therefore a deal by deal basis. Being outside the CU will not only be ridiculous in terms of red tape it will cost a small fortune. I just don’t get it.
I don't think trade was necessarily on everyone's mind. They'll need us more than we need them in any case. I think as Seth says, if you are part of the customs Union you can't negotiate your own trade deals
The deals with other countries argument is possibly one of the most ridiculous of all Brexit claims. Being part of the EU gives us trading advantages. The bigger you are the better deals you get - a basic rule of business that shouldn't be beyond the grasp of a village idiot. The most successful exporter in the World is a country in the EU FFS!
Does anybody think a complete A hole like Liam Fox can do all these deals! If so they need to book into the funny farm.
Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
Because they feel it would prevent the UK from making deals with other countries.
But as 43% of our trade is with the EU and a good proportion of that trade is food imports it would solve the question of port hold ups and resolve the Irish border issue. Surely any deals that were made in addition would be just that Negotiatiated and therefore a deal by deal basis. Being outside the CU will not only be ridiculous in terms of red tape it will cost a small fortune. I just don’t get it.
Neither do I. I was trying to be helpful rather than big up the opportunity to do independent trade deals with Micronesia.
The deals with other countries argument is possibly one of the most ridiculous of all Brexit claims. Being part of the EU gives us trading advantages. The bigger you are the better deals you get - a basic rule of business that shouldn't be beyond the grasp of a village idiot. The most successful exporter in the World is a country in the EU FFS!
Does anybody think a complete A hole like Liam Fox can do all these deals! If so they need to book into the funny farm.
Apparently the combined GDP of the 3 countries that May visited a few weeks ago, when she first showed off her dance moves, is less than the GDP of Leeds.
Can someone explain to me exactly why being part of the customs union is such a no no for the Brexiteers. It really doesn’t make any sense to me.
Pushing this because I really would appreciate an answer from someone.
Does staying in until Customs Union require us to allow freedom of movement?
I don’t think it does. Remaining in the single market would but I don’t think that applies to the CU. It would also hugely benefit the EU if we were in the CU. Mays common rule book was rejected by the 27 but that I think was because it was recognised that there would be a divergence eventually. I could be wrong though.
She really doesn’t. I think the truly hardcore, Mogg type, Brexiteers are a noisy minority in her party and in the House. Trying to be all things to all people has been one of May’s real fatal flaws. Time to put something on the table that says we will leave the EU in March but remain in the customs union and single market during the “implementation period” which, if we don’t have a solution after the implementation period, then we stay in both until a solution is found and dare the House to vote it down in favour of a no deal alternative.
Isn't that pretty much Labour Party policy?
No, Labour Party policy is to pursue a customs union, not the customs union. Not sure what the difference is, think it’s basicslky status quo without freedom of movement - which the EU would never accept.
That's why I used "pretty much". We can't call it a customs union but it will be as close to it as possible.
Being in the customs union means we can't negotiate our own trade deals, instead having to rely on the deals the EU negotiates on our behalf. Some people think we should stay in the customs union and continue to benefit from the 750+ deals and treaties from which we already benefit. Some people think we should be outside the customs union and make our own deals. Here are a few pointers.
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
Being in the customs union means we can't negotiate our own trade deals, instead having to rely on the deals the EU negotiates on our behalf. Some people think we should stay in the customs union and continue to benefit from the 750+ deals and treaties from which we already benefit. Some people think we should be outside the customs union and make our own deals. Here are a few pointers.
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
You ignore the elephant in room. The Euro. Germany benefits considerably as an exporter from the Euro being weaker than it ought to be, against a hypothetical Deutschmark. While the German economy itself is strong, the value of the Euro is dragged down by the likes of Greece and Italy who are up to their ears in debt, unemployment and poor productivity. Not only can they not compete with German industry, their weak economies help to devalue the Euro which only increases Germany's advantage.
Being in the customs union means we can't negotiate our own trade deals, instead having to rely on the deals the EU negotiates on our behalf. Some people think we should stay in the customs union and continue to benefit from the 750+ deals and treaties from which we already benefit. Some people think we should be outside the customs union and make our own deals. Here are a few pointers.
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
You ignore the elephant in room. The Euro. Germany benefits considerably as an exporter from the Euro being weaker than it ought to be, against a hypothetical Deutschmark. While the German economy itself is strong, the value of the Euro is dragged down by the likes of Greece and Italy who are up to their ears in debt, unemployment and poor productivity. Not only can they not compete with German industry, their weak economies help to devalue the Euro which only increases Germany's advantage.
But the value of the Euro shouldn't affect the ability of the UK to compete - it has (with the exception of its abortive membership of the ERM) always been in the UK's gift to devalue the Pound (along with all the other associated economic levers), should it so desire, to create a competitive advantage for its industry.
I could see your argument if the UK was in the Eurozone.
Being in the customs union means we can't negotiate our own trade deals, instead having to rely on the deals the EU negotiates on our behalf. Some people think we should stay in the customs union and continue to benefit from the 750+ deals and treaties from which we already benefit. Some people think we should be outside the customs union and make our own deals. Here are a few pointers.
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
You ignore the elephant in room. The Euro. Germany benefits considerably as an exporter from the Euro being weaker than it ought to be, against a hypothetical Deutschmark. While the German economy itself is strong, the value of the Euro is dragged down by the likes of Greece and Italy who are up to their ears in debt, unemployment and poor productivity. Not only can they not compete with German industry, their weak economies help to devalue the Euro which only increases Germany's advantage.
But the value of the Euro shouldn't affect the ability of the UK to compete - it has (with the exception of its abortive membership of the ERM) always been in the UK's gift to devalue the Pound (along with all the other associated economic levers), should it so desire, to create a competitive advantage for its industry.
I could see your argument if the UK was in the Eurozone.
@Missed It also ignores the point that Germany has been smashing it out of the park in terms of exports for decades. Not because of the Euro as much as they manufacture stuff people want and are good at setting up and maintaining the deals to sell it.
Germany benefits from the Euro, but the bottom line with Germany is it makes quality products that the world wants to buy. That is the starting point for increasing exports. Why anybody thinks as a smaller entity we can negotiate better agreements than we already have and fails to realise the length of time it takes to negotiate agreements we don't have is beyond me. Actually, it isn't. They just don't consider it.
The Labour party has now an important role to play. It has had opportunities to side with Tory remainers and defeat the government in key votes in the past but has tabled its own amendments that they can't support. But I think this is honest and people who say the six tests are asking the impossible may be right, but it is not unfair to demand them seeing as the government said they would deliver them.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
The Labour party has now an important role to play. It has had opportunities to side with Tory remainers and defeat the government in key votes in the past but has tabled its own amendments that they can't support. But I think this is honest and people who say the six tests are asking the impossible may be right, but it is not unfair to demand them seeing as the government said they would deliver them.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
You’re basically asking Labour to function as a proper opposition to HM Government, which they haven’t on this subject so far and really show no signs of doing under Corbyn. In many ways their approach has been similar to the Brexiteers in the Tory party - to tell the PM everything that’s wrong with her (admittedly rubbish) plans without offering anything sensible of their own.
I would imagine that leaving the EU, even without a deal, and the reunification of Ireland would align with Corbyn’s real beliefs nicely - plus by sitting back and letting to Tory party do it for him he doesn’t even need to take the blame for the madness to follow and can pick up the pieces in the next General Election.
It is the job of the opposition to tell the government what is wrong if its plans are rubbish. And whilst they are being accused of being opportunistic, they have supported the government on votes when they could have defeated them which is the opposite. I am now asking the Labour party to be less idealistic and more tactical to help save the country from this government. They have given the government a chance to deliver what the people voted for, but it is clear that won't happen so it is time to stop us falling off the cliff. We have to see how it all plays out in the coming weeks. I won't forgive Labour if it allows us to fall off the hard Brexit cliff, and I am hopeful it won't. But we won't know until we get there.
My message to sensible Tories, of whom there are many is to follow the advice of Michael Heseltine. He has said, a future Tory government can always fix any damage a Labour government does. But Brexit will not be fixable. Everybody who understands what a disaster this will be has to put the country before their party.
Seeing, as I think we all know, that Brexit is a complete & utter shambles & whatever deal TM gets is not going to please anyone then should she;
1) plow on regardless - its "the will of the people"
2) own up that the Conservatives (ie David Cameron) fucked up calling a Referendum & until there is a United Ireland the UK is stuck inside the EU.
3) Call a GE & see whether the country wants Corbyn to sort it out.
4) something else ?
It may surprise you.....I'd go 2 or 3.
The only one that I think she should rule out is the one that she will follow (which is no. 1).
For no. 4, even at this late stage, I would suggest seeking all party agreement via a Constitutional Convention/Westminster Hall assembly.
It is, however, really depressing to see how the UK Government is seeking go backwards, by trying to negotiate again what has already been agreed - it's not quite Groundhog Day (because at least in the film the lead character develops from an unpromising start).
Seeing, as I think we all know, that Brexit is a complete & utter shambles & whatever deal TM gets is not going to please anyone then should she;
1) plow on regardless - its "the will of the people"
2) own up that the Conservatives (ie David Cameron) fucked up calling a Referendum & until there is a United Ireland the UK is stuck inside the EU.
3) Call a GE & see whether the country wants Corbyn to sort it out.
4) something else ?
It may surprise you.....I'd go 2 or 3.
The only one that I think she should rule out is the one that she will follow (which is no. 1).
For no. 4, even at this late stage, I would suggest seeking all party agreement via a Constitutional Convention/Westminster Hall assembly.
It is, however, really depressing to see how the UK Government is seeking go backwards, by trying to negotiate again what has already been agreed - it's not quite Groundhog Day (because at least in the film the lead character develops from an unpromising start).
Option 1 or 3 would be a disaster - both seem to be not facing up to the problem. Our politicians across the board need to show some balls and work together to sort this out.
The bickering within the Conservative party at this late stage is pretty shameful - too many politicians are pushing forward their own petty profiles at the expense of the country. The level of immaturity and selfishness from certain individuals is shocking.
The Labour party has now an important role to play. It has had opportunities to side with Tory remainers and defeat the government in key votes in the past but has tabled its own amendments that they can't support. But I think this is honest and people who say the six tests are asking the impossible may be right, but it is not unfair to demand them seeing as the government said they would deliver them.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
The Liberals sided with the Tories in 2010 for the good of the country ostensibly and as a result they got mashed in 2015. Labour do have that firmly in mind. I have always thought that the 'six tests' we're unconvincing but in opposition you have the luxury of saying anything, which is a shame because Labour should be attacking this rank and vile bunch of evil Tories. If I were Labour my strategy would be oppose the Tories and hope to get a general election out of it.
Comments
Because we haven’t left the eu yet.
People keep telling me how well informed the electorate were over the referendum.
Does staying in until Customs Union require us to allow freedom of movement?
If you read the Daily Express you'll realise all will be okay.
Does anybody think a complete A hole like Liam Fox can do all these deals! If so they need to book into the funny farm.
I was trying to be helpful rather than big up the opportunity to do independent trade deals with Micronesia.
I think I am.
Major telling it like it is
1. Some Brexiters think we should do a Canada Plus deal with the EU, to take effect as soon as we leave the EU (and the customs union). They miss the point that, should we do such a deal, we would go from having a deal with Canada (as we do now) to not having a deal with Canada (which we would have to start to negotiate the day after we leave the EU). So "Canada Plus" means "not having a deal with Canada".
2. Some Brexiters point to the fact that Germany does far more trade with countries outside the EU (for example Russia) than we do. They believe that, by leaving the customs union, we will be able to do more trade with countries outside the EU and, to an unspecified extent, compete with Germany. Do you see the folly here? If not, here goes: Germany is in the customs union. They don't do more trade with non-EU countries because they're free of the constraints of the customs union, they do more trade with non-EU countries, because they're better at it than we are. So, leaving the customs union in order to do more trade with other non-EU countries is neither necessary, nor desirable.
3. Some Brexiters are hung up on control. Gaining control of the trade deals we *can* do, seems to be more important than benefiting from the deals we will *have* to do. If we leave the customs union with a deal, we will go from having 750+ deals in place, to having one - with the EU. That's, of course, one more than we would have if we left with no deal. It's taken more than two years to get somewhere close to having that one trade deal - with the EU - in place. At the current run rate, we will be able to complete the 750+deals around the year 3518AD. (Just before RD's sale of Charlton finally goes through).
I could see your argument if the UK was in the Eurozone.
What Labour has to do now is be pragmatic. The government is taking us down a path to being a poorer nation. If it means Labour wins an election in that poorer nation, they won't be popular as they will be less able to deliver their objectives. Then there is the future of the Union and peace in Ireland to consider. What Labour has to do is prioritise the country falling off the cliff before winning the election. The numbers are there to do this and those numbers of all political colours have to put the country before party. They will reap the benefit if they do so and won't be forgiven if they don't.
I would imagine that leaving the EU, even without a deal, and the reunification of Ireland would align with Corbyn’s real beliefs nicely - plus by sitting back and letting to Tory party do it for him he doesn’t even need to take the blame for the madness to follow and can pick up the pieces in the next General Election.
My message to sensible Tories, of whom there are many is to follow the advice of Michael Heseltine. He has said, a future Tory government can always fix any damage a Labour government does. But Brexit will not be fixable. Everybody who understands what a disaster this will be has to put the country before their party.
what do you think TM should do now ?
Seeing, as I think we all know, that Brexit is a complete & utter shambles & whatever deal TM gets is not going to please anyone then should she;
1) plow on regardless - its "the will of the people"
2) own up that the Conservatives (ie David Cameron) fucked up calling a Referendum & until there is a United Ireland the UK is stuck inside the EU.
3) Call a GE & see whether the country wants Corbyn to sort it out.
4) something else ?
It may surprise you.....I'd go 2 or 3.
For no. 4, even at this late stage, I would suggest seeking all party agreement via a Constitutional Convention/Westminster Hall assembly.
It is, however, really depressing to see how the UK Government is seeking go backwards, by trying to negotiate again what has already been agreed - it's not quite Groundhog Day (because at least in the film the lead character develops from an unpromising start).
Our politicians across the board need to show some balls and work together to sort this out.
The bickering within the Conservative party at this late stage is pretty shameful - too many politicians are pushing forward their own petty profiles at the expense of the country. The level of immaturity and selfishness from certain individuals is shocking.
Labour needs to wise up to what's happening.
I have always thought that the 'six tests' we're unconvincing but in opposition you have the luxury of saying anything, which is a shame because Labour should be attacking this rank and vile bunch of evil Tories.
If I were Labour my strategy would be oppose the Tories and hope to get a general election out of it.