- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
I had missed that the Dutch have recruited an additional 1000 customs staff in preparation of a "chaotic Brexit". We, on the other hand, don't even appear to know how many we already have let alone have recruited and trained enough to cope with the extra work leaving will bring about...
Yet still people are prepared to put our faith in these fecking morons in charge.
Ironic really, all of the Brexit nutters will have their blue passports back....but will be stuck in queues so long that they won't be able to use them.
I think you will find that if there are long queues to get stuck in, the remainer nutters might get stuck in them too along with those in between.
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
No you didn't.......that is what I was voting for. The end of complete open borders for 27 countries. It just so happens that the EU tie up their no-tarrif trade deal with this.
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
No you didn't.......that is what I was voting for. The end of complete open borders for 27 countries. It just so happens that the EU tie up their no-tarrif trade deal with this.
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
If you are concerned about millions of people entering the UK how would you prevent that on the Irish border after the UK leaves? Are you able to provide a detailed and comprehensive solution as the issue seems to worry you a lot? I assume border control was something you knew the solution to when voting brexit.
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
No you didn't.......that is what I was voting for. The end of complete open borders for 27 countries. It just so happens that the EU tie up their no-tarrif trade deal with this.
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
If you’re happy to stop the inflow of young, motivated people whos contribution to our economy vastly outweighs the cost and the outflow of elderly people who retire to other countries where they burden their health systems rather than ours despite contributing little in taxable income to make up for it then crack on, let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population of this country is significantly worse off.
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
No you didn't.......that is what I was voting for. The end of complete open borders for 27 countries. It just so happens that the EU tie up their no-tarrif trade deal with this.
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
What checks do you mean? Any time I have entered the UK from abroad I have had to show my passport. If you are saying that we don't actually need to show them then was was the big hoo-hah of the only tangible brexit benefit of needing blue passports?
Since when was it either noble or the “right” decision to continue to pursue a policy that will knowingly make everyone’s lives worse off in the name of a political ideology?
its not political fucking ideology its what the electorate voted for ffs !!
Leave means leave. not stay in some convoluted customs union or tied to the EU in any wsy shape or form.
I for 1 salute MP's like her. Prepared to stand up & be counted & not meekly agree with whatever shitfest TM concocts with the EU.
Oh dear Golfie - fifth time (I think) I have had to trot this out. Your heroes said we would be staying in the single market though, didn't they...
ffs !! no one is my hero. I didnt vote for any person or party. I voted to leave the EU. TM's Chequers plan (which is being watered down as I type) does not constitute leaving on 29th March. I dont care what anyone said pre or post June 2016. All I care about is that the Government deliver what they asked me to vote on. If they can't then fair enough.....but say it. Own up. Go on tv & say "sorry, we asked you to vote on something that is undeliverable. we were wrong. The UK can not leave the EU, ending freedom of trade & movement of people. we are incompetent because we didnt check this out before asking you. we will now have a GE so that you, the people, can decide what happens next".
Its quite simple. they asked a yes or no question......we should have an answer.
I must have missed the bit when we were asked to vote on this...
No you didn't.......that is what I was voting for. The end of complete open borders for 27 countries. It just so happens that the EU tie up their no-tarrif trade deal with this.
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
I voted Remain. In part, because the benefits of open movement far outweigh the perceived costs. I knew that millions of people do not simply enter the country without any checks. And I knew that those who do can be removed.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
This. But you forgot - "it's the EU's fault for Brexit not working".
@NornIrishAddick one thing though you were completely right on was the Northern Irish border issue which I did dispute at the time of the referendum. Still seems the tail wagging the dog but that is another matter.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
I had missed that the Dutch have recruited an additional 1000 customs staff in preparation of a "chaotic Brexit". We, on the other hand, don't even appear to know how many we already have let alone have recruited and trained enough to cope with the extra work leaving will bring about...
Yet still people are prepared to put our faith in these fecking morons in charge.
Ironic really, all of the Brexit nutters will have their blue passports back....but will be stuck in queues so long that they won't be able to use them.
I think you will find that if there are long queues to get stuck in, the remainer nutters might get stuck in them too along with those in between.
So long as they don't bring back the idiot border guard at Ebsfleet who interrogated me as I was trying to leave the country, about my life in Prague, which he seemed barely able to comprehend. "What kind of consultancy ?" "Arms trading, a bit of human trafficking...can I get my train now?"
@NornIrishAddick one thing though you were completely right on was the Northern Irish border issue which I did dispute at the time of the referendum. Still seems the tail wagging the dog but that is another matter.
I think phrases like “tail wagging the dog” are entirely the reason why Brexiteers didn’t foresee the issues the Irish border would create.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
And when you were asked I bet you regurgitated the lies and crap spouted by Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage et al.
You could of course have another reason. Not going to give you a pound but enlighten us.
@NornIrishAddick one thing though you were completely right on was the Northern Irish border issue which I did dispute at the time of the referendum. Still seems the tail wagging the dog but that is another matter.
You called my earlier post ignorant. You might want to look closer to home after this comment ?
Brexit is an emotional issue, reasoning and facts don't seem to have any effect on Brexiters. However they are the winners anyway. The issue now is surely about practicalities. The responsibility for resolving those issues is squarely with the brexiters because they won.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
Telegraph trying to make Johnson look very Churchillian today. Churchill type pose and mutterings about aggressors at the top of the front page. It is getting beyond pathetic now.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
Do you think what a 'clean break' means will be explained to the voters during another referendum campaign by the eventual leave victors?
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
I believe you are mistaken regarding this thread. I feel the bile to reasoning ratio is more like 85% reasoning and 15% bile.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
I believe you are mistaken regarding this thread. I feel the bile to reasoning ratio is more like 85% reasoning and 15% bile.
Well, like I said, I'm not in here all that often but I see enough to keep me out.
Indeed. May's strategy appears to be to concede on the Irish Border issue in private with the EU negotiator, get the 27 to sign off on her compromise this week then try to bounce a majority of her Cabinet into agreeing with it later this week, then rely on dissident Labour MPs like Caroline Flint to get it through Parliament. What could possibly go wrong.
Indeed. May's strategy appears to be to concede on the Irish Border issue in private with the EU negotiator, get the 27 to sign off on her compromise this week then try to bounce a majority of her Cabinet into agreeing with it later this week, then rely on dissident Labour MPs like Caroline Flint to get it through Parliament. What could possibly go wrong.
Due to a poorly worded and ill thought out referendum where there was no planning the UK has shot itself in the foot. I don't really see what has been achieved other than to create a divided country.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
I pretty much agree with your first paragraph. I think the second one overstates the ire and bile on here, though there's no dispute that it exists.
I think it's worth considering why it exists at all. After all, very few political decisions give rise to such intensity of feeling, why should this one? A clue is in the fact that it wasn't decided by politicians. It was ordinary people who (by a very narrow margin) chose this path - or at least some sort of path; they don't really know the details and to be fair, how could they? Had the government just said 'we are going for Brexit' they'd have been hounded out of power by now. People may have been happy with the original decision, but with the facts that have since emerged, any politian wanting to pursue Brexot without the false legitimacy of the referendum would be an absolute laughing stock. You want to do what? Ha ha ha.
That bloody referendum has completely skewed the landscape though. Ordinary people can't criticise the decision, because it's theirs. Instead the seek to blame the EU (again) or the govts negotiating skills. Politicians shy away from criticising it, because it was made by the constituents whose votes they'll want in the future.
I have yet to hear one credible, factually based, benefit of Brexit. Most Brexieers don't even bother trying to give one. Yet we are still continuing down the path of mayhem. It's ridiculous.
It may not be a nice thing to contemplate, but with the rights of generation being swept away, I think that the ire and bile we see after March will be far more significant than anything we've seen yet. We desperately need our politicians to grow some balls and end this charade now.
Comments
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
There's an interesting (and thankfully brief) overview available here: https://thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
But if you're happy with the status quo of allowing millions of people to simply enter our country without any checks or thought to our infrastructure then great. Crack on. Let me know how it goes in another 10 years when the population in this country is 70 million.
Are you able to provide a detailed and comprehensive solution as the issue seems to worry you a lot? I assume border control was something you knew the solution to when voting brexit.
But, then again, I knew what I was voting for.
Just totally insulting and ignorant.
If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
You could of course have another reason. Not going to give you a pound but enlighten us.
You called my earlier post ignorant. You might want to look closer to home after this comment ?
The issue now is surely about practicalities.
The responsibility for resolving those issues is squarely with the brexiters because they won.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
Ms Adler is known to be a tad eurosceptic, too, so this is worthy of attention:
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
I remain unclear how this binary question explains how the Brexit process was going to work. Was there some hidden detail I was missing?
Two years on and I'm still none the wiser and nobody seems to know what they voted for other than on sentiment.
What could possibly go wrong.
The whole thing is an utter farce.
I think it's worth considering why it exists at all. After all, very few political decisions give rise to such intensity of feeling, why should this one? A clue is in the fact that it wasn't decided by politicians. It was ordinary people who (by a very narrow margin) chose this path - or at least some sort of path; they don't really know the details and to be fair, how could they? Had the government just said 'we are going for Brexit' they'd have been hounded out of power by now. People may have been happy with the original decision, but with the facts that have since emerged, any politian wanting to pursue Brexot without the false legitimacy of the referendum would be an absolute laughing stock. You want to do what? Ha ha ha.
That bloody referendum has completely skewed the landscape though. Ordinary people can't criticise the decision, because it's theirs. Instead the seek to blame the EU (again) or the govts negotiating skills. Politicians shy away from criticising it, because it was made by the constituents whose votes they'll want in the future.
I have yet to hear one credible, factually based, benefit of Brexit. Most Brexieers don't even bother trying to give one. Yet we are still continuing down the path of mayhem. It's ridiculous.
It may not be a nice thing to contemplate, but with the rights of generation being swept away, I think that the ire and bile we see after March will be far more significant than anything we've seen yet. We desperately need our politicians to grow some balls and end this charade now.