This weekend I had to endure an argument about how we need to leave the EU to regain sovereignty, and not abide by rules made by others. The solution, naturally, was to revert to WTO rules. Help me out here... Did the UK exclusively put together these WTO rules? I'd hate to imply this argument is flawed.
Theresa May to make a statement in the Commons this afternoon. I expect it will be more of less the same old story, perhaps with heightened lamentations about the EU being the EU and consistently so to boot. As I write the UK brexit negotiators are yet to tell us their plan for the Irish border in order to facilitate the withdrawal agreement.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Are they working to any particular set of standards then? Perhaps we should do the same.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I think we must all agree that Cameron setting up the referendum, knowing full well that should the people decide to vote for it would be almost impossible to actually implement, must be one of the most irresponsible acts a Prime Minister has ever made. Then walking away from it straight away compounds the folly of it all. People talk about not honouring the referendum decision as being the greatest betrayal of the people ever, but Cameron's reckless and blase deception has arguably caused a far greater loss of trust in politicians.
The whole Brexit referendum and negotiation shambles has proved how utterly useless the majority of our politicians are at present. Since Cameron got this process started it's been a comedy of errors.
To embark on this path with an ill-advised and ill thought out referendum undertaken with no preparation is really beyond belief. I'm not really clear who has benefitted from this.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I understand that Cambridge Audio is a Uk domiciled business, with appropriate CIT arrangements, whose main value creating employees are also located here. Do let me know if I am wrong.
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
There is an economic argument behind what Muttley says
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
The Euro has most definitely benefitted some EU members more than others.
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I understand that Cambridge Audio is a Uk domiciled business, with appropriate CIT arrangements, whose main value creating employees are also located here. Do let me know if I am wrong.
Next?
I'd argue your last statement but that's not the point...Honda UK might be a subsidiary for Honda Motors but they are still a UK company manufacturing goods in the UK.
So are Honda Civics actually Japanese goods? They've not been imported, built here in the UK, so are they less British than your Chinese made speakers under the name of a British company? I genuinely want to know!
Words fail me. At least he could claim one by saying he’s drunk a pint of Guinness.
What I don’t understand is that someone must have told this bloke that he is entitled to an Irish passport because he’s English - who is coming up with this nonsense in the first place?
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
I pretty much agree with your first paragraph. I think the second one overstates the ire and bile on here, though there's no dispute that it exists.
I think it's worth considering why it exists at all. After all, very few political decisions give rise to such intensity of feeling, why should this one? A clue is in the fact that it wasn't decided by politicians. It was ordinary people who (by a very narrow margin) chose this path - or at least some sort of path; they don't really know the details and to be fair, how could they? Had the government just said 'we are going for Brexit' they'd have been hounded out of power by now. People may have been happy with the original decision, but with the facts that have since emerged, any politian wanting to pursue Brexot without the false legitimacy of the referendum would be an absolute laughing stock. You want to do what? Ha ha ha.
That bloody referendum has completely skewed the landscape though. Ordinary people can't criticise the decision, because it's theirs. Instead the seek to blame the EU (again) or the govts negotiating skills. Politicians shy away from criticising it, because it was made by the constituents whose votes they'll want in the future.
I have yet to hear one credible, factually based, benefit of Brexit. Most Brexieers don't even bother trying to give one. Yet we are still continuing down the path of mayhem. It's ridiculous.
It may not be a nice thing to contemplate, but with the rights of generation being swept away, I think that the ire and bile we see after March will be far more significant than anything we've seen yet. We desperately need our politicians to grow some balls and end this charade now.
I fear you might be proved to be very right on this. In the 80's families and friendships were torn apart during the miners strike and still haven't been reconciled. I believe the same will happen on a national scale when the full ramifications of Leaving are played out in a few years and people start losing their jobs, etc.
428 pages on and it still boils down to the Brexiters wanting out of Europe because they hate the idea of anyone other than someone from Eton running the show. Hate the idea of being European and not English / British (delete as applicable). See the future through the prism of the 1950’s and would rather the economy flatlines than admit or even recognise that we will all be worse off for a very long time as a result. No amount of expert opinion or economic forecasts are going to make the slightest difference but fuck it. At least we have blue passports and anyway queuing is what the British do best. They won’t admit to this of course. They just re peddle the lies of taking back control and project fear and offer nothing constructive by way of a solution.
I haven't looked at this thread for a couple of months. Read just one comment (this comment) and remember why. Just totally insulting and ignorant. If I had a £ for every time somebody told me why I voted Brexit I would have bought Charlton by now with many million to spare to get us back to the premier!
Indeed. I don't normally bother with this thread for just this reason but when I do pop in from time to time with an alternative point of view I count myself lucky if I get out again without being called racist, ignorant or a Little Englander. The snide remarks about blue passports stopped being funny, if they ever were, years ago.
I am coming round to the idea of another referendum mainly because the Remainers would double down on how racist, thick and uneducated we Leavers are. This attitude would virtually guarantee another Leave vote, but this time based on a clean break and led by Leave not Remain politicians.
I've said before, we live in a parliamentary democracy. We elect our representatives to make decisions on our behalf. Referendums should be used sparingly, if at all. Part of the fallout of the referendum is that unlike a decision made by the government, where the government is seen to be to blame, people blame their fellow citizens for the choice.
While this thread does have its occasional moments of civilised disagreement it's often characterized by the ire and bile of people throwing blame and insult at each other.
I pretty much agree with your first paragraph. I think the second one overstates the ire and bile on here, though there's no dispute that it exists.
I think it's worth considering why it exists at all. After all, very few political decisions give rise to such intensity of feeling, why should this one? A clue is in the fact that it wasn't decided by politicians. It was ordinary people who (by a very narrow margin) chose this path - or at least some sort of path; they don't really know the details and to be fair, how could they? Had the government just said 'we are going for Brexit' they'd have been hounded out of power by now. People may have been happy with the original decision, but with the facts that have since emerged, any politian wanting to pursue Brexot without the false legitimacy of the referendum would be an absolute laughing stock. You want to do what? Ha ha ha.
That bloody referendum has completely skewed the landscape though. Ordinary people can't criticise the decision, because it's theirs. Instead the seek to blame the EU (again) or the govts negotiating skills. Politicians shy away from criticising it, because it was made by the constituents whose votes they'll want in the future.
I have yet to hear one credible, factually based, benefit of Brexit. Most Brexieers don't even bother trying to give one. Yet we are still continuing down the path of mayhem. It's ridiculous.
It may not be a nice thing to contemplate, but with the rights of generation being swept away, I think that the ire and bile we see after March will be far more significant than anything we've seen yet. We desperately need our politicians to grow some balls and end this charade now.
I fear you might be proved to be very right on this. In the 80's families and friendships were torn apart during the miners strike and still haven't been reconciled. I believe the same will happen on a national scale when the full ramifications of Leaving are played out in a few years and people start losing their jobs, etc.
- the EU is dominated by Germany - the EU is "bullying" or "trying to punish" Britain - politics in other EU countries is moving towards a similar 'exit' policy.
need to listen to this absolutely on the money report from the BBC's Mark Mardell this lunchtime from the Netherlands. Starts at 10.21 mins. If nothing else listen from 13.30 to a Mr Mulder, a Dutch MP in charge of Brexit preparation who delivers one of the best lines I've heard in the last three years, referring to a 'special relationship'....
Listen to the Dutch, for chrissake...
It is dominated by Germany though.
The one thing that every German government have sedulously sought to achieve in the EU, mindful as they are of recent history, is not dominating it.
Germany is certainly the leading economy in the EU, but is generally happier to have had France or other EU states (including the UK) to take the lead in major political decisions about the future of the EU.
I think the evidence points elswhere. When you look at the treatment of Greece - Germany was right of the heart of that. The Euro is a currency that is brilliant for Germany, less so for other countries. Having said all that, we will suffer a massive financial hit leaving the EU so we ought to agree it is daft to leave at least.
I really don't think that it does.
Germany may have been at the heart of the approach taken by EU member states, but the action taken by the EU was not taken just because Germany wanted that approach taken.
As the article makes clear, Germany was clearly in favour of austerity as a solution for the Greek crisis, but it was far from alone.
Why was the EU so harsh? EU leaders and bond rating agencies wanted to make sure Greece wouldn't use the new debt to pay off the old. Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Ireland, and Spain had already used austerity measures to strengthen their own economies. Since they were paying for the bailouts, they wanted Greece to follow their examples. Some EU countries like Slovakia and Lithuania refused to ask their taxpayers to dig into their pockets to let Greece off the hook. These countries had just endured their own austerity measures to avoid bankruptcy with no help from the EU.
For what it's worth, my own memory is that the Netherlands were quite a bit more hardline in their stance than Germany.
And, regarding the Euro, Germany never wanted it - they had the Deutschmark and were very happy with their lot. The Euro was the quid pro quo required for French-led EU support for German reunification. That said, once they were to be dragged into the currency, they were determined that it should be managed as if by grown-ups....
The Euro has been incredibly helpful for German exports.
By far the most helpful thing for German exports has been their quality - frankly, I don't think the change to the Euro from the Deutschmark had that big an impact.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
Quite. I wish @MuttleyCAFC would just go take a look around his gaff as I did, and let us know what he has bought that is British (nb a Toyota Nissan or Honda does not count as British...)
What if his Honda was manufactured in the UK but your Cambridge Audio speakers were in, oh I don't know, China...What's more British?
I understand that Cambridge Audio is a Uk domiciled business, with appropriate CIT arrangements, whose main value creating employees are also located here. Do let me know if I am wrong.
Next?
I'd argue your last statement but that's not the point...Honda UK might be a subsidiary for Honda Motors but they are still a UK company manufacturing goods in the UK.
So are Honda Civics actually Japanese goods? They've not been imported, built here in the UK, so are they less British than your Chinese made speakers under the name of a British company? I genuinely want to know!
Kind of surprised, but OK, here goes.
We have been discussing that the German economy is driven as much by the Mittelstand SMEs as much as by the giants such as the auto companies and Bosch Siemens etc. One such Mittelstand whose product many Lifers have purchased is Sennheiser. As you can read, Sennheiser is famous for continuing to produce in its small home town near Hannover, even though its global success means it has expanded its operations. We can safely assume that profits are repatriated to and taxed in Germany. It is therefore a German company, no?
I am looking for UK equivalents to such a company and since we have a bit of a reputation in the same field, we might think that Cambridge Audio is similar (albeit much smaller). The Wki shows us that while indeed it does manufacture in China, "Investment in new products continues and the company now employs 91 people including an in-house engineering team of 24, based at the Cambridge Audio HQ in London, SE1 and at the company's Cambridge base".
As such I believe that the profits are declared and taxed in the UK, and that UK management decides on the future direction and investments of the company, to the benefit of the UK more than any other country.
None of the last sentence can be ascribed to Honda, fine company that it is.
But I can't help thinking that you already knew all that...
"...also speaking at the ‘Save Brexit Rally’ at the Bournemouth International Centre is Conor Burns, MP for Bournemouth West, who has recently called for the government's 'Chequers' proposal – currently being considered by the EU – to be abandoned.
"They are having a whole series of these events across the country to continue to make the arguments for leaving," said Mr Burns.
He said he thought leave campaigners had been too complacent in the aftermath of the referendum.
"When the result came in we stopped campaigning, while those who supported staying in saw it as the beginning of another campaign," he said.
"In Denmark, France, Ireland, when people have had the opportunity to have a referendum there have been some minor changes made and they have then been told to vote again until they come up with the 'right' answer.
"We thought it would be different here, we would hold the vote and that would be that."
Anyone for a UK- wide referendum about the NI issue? Something simple like.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
If the “divorce bill” is due to be around £39bn then why don’t we just sell Northern Ireland to the Republic for that sum and deal with two issues at once?
Why should the Republic pay for a territory that they, and 99% of the rest of the world, believe belongs to them in the first place?
Important then to focus the hatred not on the Leave voters but the people making a mint off it
My issue is with politicians not voters. It's politicians who came up with a half-baked referendum not explaining what they were going to do.
The referendum in that format shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead. There needed to be a clear explanation of what leaving the EU meant in practical terms - two years post referendum and we're still none the wiser.
The blame for this lies with the mess created by negligent cowardly politicians. They created this....
Meanwhile some important info on the Bavarian elections for those on here who seem to know more about the Germans than the Germans themselves do ( warning: helps if you speak some German...)
I'm not clear what this proves exactly? Asylum and refugees are an issue in Germany and Merkel has lost a lot of support. The AfD and the Greens both increased their share of the vote and the electorate seemed to be dissatisfied with the current coalition.
It proves what the first line of the Tweet says:
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is noton the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.
Comments
I expect it will be more of less the same old story, perhaps with heightened lamentations about the EU being the EU and consistently so to boot.
As I write the UK brexit negotiators are yet to tell us their plan for the Irish border in order to facilitate the withdrawal agreement.
People around the World want to buy German goods because they have a reputation for excellence.
"Should Northern Ireland be allowed to leave the UK"?
God knows what would happen if a majority voted 'YES'. Would keep us all occupied for decades.
To embark on this path with an ill-advised and ill thought out referendum undertaken with no preparation is really beyond belief.
I'm not really clear who has benefitted from this.
Next?
www.forbes.com/sites/miltonezrati/2018/01/23/the-german-swindle-built-into-the-euro/amp/
In theory, economies like Germany are benefitting from their currency being weaker than their nation on its own would suggest, and countries like Italy and Greece are suffering from their currency being too strong (and this is outside of the difficulties of sharing a monetary policy).
From the article, the IMF estimates Germany has a 6% comparative advantage outside of its economic fundamentals. It's very interesting if you are into all this economics stuff.
Words fail me. At least he could claim one by saying he’s drunk a pint of Guinness.
So are Honda Civics actually Japanese goods? They've not been imported, built here in the UK, so are they less British than your Chinese made speakers under the name of a British company? I genuinely want to know!
What I don’t understand is that someone must have told this bloke that he is entitled to an Irish passport because he’s English - who is coming up with this nonsense in the first place?
We have been discussing that the German economy is driven as much by the Mittelstand SMEs as much as by the giants such as the auto companies and Bosch Siemens etc. One such Mittelstand whose product many Lifers have purchased is Sennheiser. As you can read, Sennheiser is famous for continuing to produce in its small home town near Hannover, even though its global success means it has expanded its operations. We can safely assume that profits are repatriated to and taxed in Germany. It is therefore a German company, no?
I am looking for UK equivalents to such a company and since we have a bit of a reputation in the same field, we might think that Cambridge Audio is similar (albeit much smaller). The Wki shows us that while indeed it does manufacture in China, "Investment in new products continues and the company now employs 91 people including an in-house engineering team of 24, based at the Cambridge Audio HQ in London, SE1 and at the company's Cambridge base".
As such I believe that the profits are declared and taxed in the UK, and that UK management decides on the future direction and investments of the company, to the benefit of the UK more than any other country.
None of the last sentence can be ascribed to Honda, fine company that it is.
But I can't help thinking that you already knew all that...
https://bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/16965071.nigel-farage-to-lead-major-pro-brexit-rally-in-bournemouth/
"...also speaking at the ‘Save Brexit Rally’ at the Bournemouth International Centre is Conor Burns, MP for Bournemouth West, who has recently called for the government's 'Chequers' proposal – currently being considered by the EU – to be abandoned.
"They are having a whole series of these events across the country to continue to make the arguments for leaving," said Mr Burns.
He said he thought leave campaigners had been too complacent in the aftermath of the referendum.
"When the result came in we stopped campaigning, while those who supported staying in saw it as the beginning of another campaign," he said.
"In Denmark, France, Ireland, when people have had the opportunity to have a referendum there have been some minor changes made and they have then been told to vote again until they come up with the 'right' answer.
"We thought it would be different here, we would hold the vote and that would be that."
The referendum in that format shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead. There needed to be a clear explanation of what leaving the EU meant in practical terms - two years post referendum and we're still none the wiser.
The blame for this lies with the mess created by negligent cowardly politicians. They created this....
Asylum and refugees were a distant 4th in Bavarian voter priorities
Which is not how the results will have been interpreted on Planet @Southbank :-)
OK, to ram home the point. The far Right is not on the march across Europe. In the Czech municipal and Senate elections last week it was halted in its tracks too.
Naked anti immigrant parties manage to pick up about 15% in many countries but do not seem to get much beyond that point. UKIP of course polled 15% in 2015.