I know a couple of Bulgarian guys who live in South London. They work for a company that collect car tyres for recycling. They are both adamant that they had a better standard of living under communism. Like others have said I find it hard that they think like this but the fact is that they do.
Russia is having internal strife at the moment because of the government intention to raise the retirement age above 60.(I believe I have the number right). Today in 'communist' China the retirement age for women is 55 and for men it is 60.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
As I have mentioned previously I worked on EU Accession projects in Hungary and then Bulgaria between 2002 - 2006. There is much in what you say about getting the politians you vote for. It has been very disheartening to see both of these countries go down the populist hard man route with Orban in Hungary and Borissov in Bulgaria. But it isn’t only in Central/Eastern Europe we see this happening and corruption comes in many forms. Perhaps the former communist states are just a bit less subtle about it!
As far as I am concerned there is a much bigger picture being played out here. One that will ensure peace, security and economic stability across Europe because of the efforts of the EU. Of course it will take time for the fledgling democracies to shake off the practices of the past. But I ‘m sure with the input of the many extremely talented and hopeful young officials I worked alongside they will get there eventually.
This correlates to what I've been told by those working with officials in the Balkans towards EU membership too. There are still huge problems in the region that might require a long while, perhaps even a generation, to tackle but there is a real sense of wanting to make up for lost time and a genuine desire to move their country forward through the EU.
Accession is a process, and Mr. Juncker's term ends next year - even if it didnt, he does not have the power to make decisions about expansion or otherwise - it's unlikely that any of the accession states are on the cusp of finally joining. But they are on a path to EU membership, and I'd expect will continue along it, unless Mr. Putin and his friends are successful.
The decision about expansion rests with the member states, as does that of deepening EU structures, which may also happen, but is also unlikely in the short term.
I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!
True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
I often chat about this with a Bulgarian that I work with. The only real plus of Bulgaria's EU membership for her was that she could finally get out of Bulgaria. It's basically the poorest and most corrupt country in the EU and as far many of her family and friends back there can say, the EU has done little or nothing to improve matters. Her family have been subject to death threats from criminal gangs trying to extort protection money from her dad's business. What does the EU actually do about it, apart from publish an annual report confirming that Bulgaria is the still the most corrupt country in the EU and it must try harder. They've been under "temporary" monitoring measures against corruption ever since they joined in 2007 and nothing has really changed, corruption and organised crime are rife.
Many of her friends and relatives feel that life was better under communism. Nobody was a millionaire but everybody generally made do with what they had and the state provided. That was an eye opener for me, someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s when we were all convinced commies were the enemy and their people were victims of totalitarian oppression. Turns out there are plenty of them who'd prefer that to what the EU has left them with.
If the EU has made such minimal progress in reforming an actual member in Bulgaria, what hope is there of ever getting former Yugoslavian states in line? Croatia had their accession messed about for years by Slovenia. When they finally agreed arbitration on border disputes they let Croatia in, only for the Croats to turn round within a couple of years and refuse to abide with what they agreed. Croatia has the same sort of disputes going on with Serbia and you can bet the house that Croatia will extract maximum advantage before they consent to Serbia's accession.
Former Yugoslavian states may well want to join the EU, but by the same token, do the EU want to accept them in? What is the EU's actual appetite for the Balkans and their endless aggravations and bitter enmities?
Aren't you just making the case for more EU intervention into domestic affairs here?
I was just trying to point out that being in the EU was supposed to improve life for the average Bulgarian and from what I hear, that is not necessarily the case. As for how the can EU fix it? I think we're in one of those, "I wouldn't start from here" situations. Bulgaria hadn't done enough to put its house in order before it was allowed to join the EU. Bulgarians should be acting to fix their own country but now we're stuck with a systematically corrupt, poverty stricken nation that sees it's brightest and best take advantage of free movement rather than fight a losing battle of reform.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
Russia is having internal strife at the moment because of the government intention to raise the retirement age above 60.(I believe I have the number right). Today in 'communist' China the retirement age for women is 55 and for men it is 60.
I think it helps that even under their failed 1 child policy, China still had both a rapidly growing population and economy. Two things that make it easy to keep retirement ages low.
Accession is a process, and Mr. Juncker's term ends next year - even if it didnt, he does not have the power to make decisions about expansion or otherwise - it's unlikely that any of the accession states are on the cusp of finally joining. But they are on a path to EU membership, and I'd expect will continue along it, unless Mr. Putin and his friends are successful.
The decision about expansion rests with the member states, as does that of deepening EU structures, which may also happen, but is also unlikely in the short term.
I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!
True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
I often chat about this with a Bulgarian that I work with. The only real plus of Bulgaria's EU membership for her was that she could finally get out of Bulgaria. It's basically the poorest and most corrupt country in the EU and as far many of her family and friends back there can say, the EU has done little or nothing to improve matters. Her family have been subject to death threats from criminal gangs trying to extort protection money from her dad's business. What does the EU actually do about it, apart from publish an annual report confirming that Bulgaria is the still the most corrupt country in the EU and it must try harder. They've been under "temporary" monitoring measures against corruption ever since they joined in 2007 and nothing has really changed, corruption and organised crime are rife.
Many of her friends and relatives feel that life was better under communism. Nobody was a millionaire but everybody generally made do with what they had and the state provided. That was an eye opener for me, someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s when we were all convinced commies were the enemy and their people were victims of totalitarian oppression. Turns out there are plenty of them who'd prefer that to what the EU has left them with.
If the EU has made such minimal progress in reforming an actual member in Bulgaria, what hope is there of ever getting former Yugoslavian states in line? Croatia had their accession messed about for years by Slovenia. When they finally agreed arbitration on border disputes they let Croatia in, only for the Croats to turn round within a couple of years and refuse to abide with what they agreed. Croatia has the same sort of disputes going on with Serbia and you can bet the house that Croatia will extract maximum advantage before they consent to Serbia's accession.
Former Yugoslavian states may well want to join the EU, but by the same token, do the EU want to accept them in? What is the EU's actual appetite for the Balkans and their endless aggravations and bitter enmities?
Aren't you just making the case for more EU intervention into domestic affairs here?
I was just trying to point out that being in the EU was supposed to improve life for the average Bulgarian and from what I hear, that is not necessarily the case. As for how the can EU fix it? I think we're in one of those, "I wouldn't start from here" situations. Bulgaria hadn't done enough to put its house in order before it was allowed to join the EU. Bulgarians should be acting to fix their own country but now we're stuck with a systematically corrupt, poverty stricken nation that sees it's brightest and best take advantage of free movement rather than fight a losing battle of reform.
Your view that “Bulgaria hadn’t done enough to put its house in order before it was allowed to join the EU” wasn’t one that was shared by the other Member States (including the UK). And from my experience and that of the many Accession advisers from across the EU I worked with they had all of the relevant systems and staffing in place to manage the process. Combatting corruption is still an issue but it is nowhere near as bad as it was in communist times (aIthough there still appear to be a lot of Russian gangsters plying their trade in the country). How do you judge poverty? Last time I was in Sofia there were less rough sleepers than I see here in Manchester and Liverpool city centres.
I defer to your first hand experience on the improvement, but the stats are all out there for anyone to find. I'm sure the google pedants will be along shortly to fact check.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
An interesting and completely bias article. I watch QT every week and it's preposterous to suggest that it is Reality TV. There is a healthy Brexit debate virtually every week and has been for donkey's years. Presumably, that is what europainted are unhappy about ?
It was the stat about MEPs that I was referring to, CE, not the biased article.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
The last sentence of your post says it all really. That is why so many eastern Europeans come to the UK. I would like to know how many people from the UK go to live in eastern Europe.
Ahem. Greetings from a small Czech village, where I have been comprehensively outclassed in rhe annual village table tennis tourno. There are apparently 5,000 Brits registered in CZ. There are quite a few retirees who bought in BG too, believe it or not.
Ahem. Greetings from a small Czech village, where I have been comprehensively outclassed in rhe annual village table tennis tourno. There are apparently 5,000 Brits registered in CZ. There are quite a few retirees who bought in BG too, believe it or not.
BTW how old are the two BG guys you mentioned?
I take it you are asking me this question. The two guys I am refering to are both in their 40's. Both have their families back home and both are adamant that life is not very good in Bulgaria. I have no doubt that plenty of British people live in your neck of the woods. As for your table tennis skills I have no comment.
Surely they can't have been more than teenagers under communism then? Romanticising it also seems a little strange since they wouldn't have been able to leave the country or at least the Eastern Bloc under communism.
Whilst I agree that the EU could be doing more to push former communist countries it is a slow process and having spent quite a bit of time in various former USSR or Warsaw Pact countries, the transformation they have already made since the grim pre -89 days is remarkable and much of that has been due to their desire to modernise and join the rest of Europe.
Made my point for me, @CharltonMadrid. It's a universal phenomenon that we all look back and remember the good bits.But really who in their 40s and older can have any meaningful idea of what life was like when they were 14?
There is no doubt Bulgaria is a difficult place to live in compared with most EU countries. I am glad I didnt try to move there rather than here in the early 90s. One lesser known fact is that BG population was 9.5m in 1989 but is now only 7.5. Many of them cleared out in the first year after the fall, and they have often been the best and brightest, like my buddy who helped bring us Kishi. its also the case that when the the people of these countries caught glimpses of life in the West, they assumed that all of them would immediately own a Merc and be kitted out in Armani. Was never going to happen, was it?
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
It doesn't appear to be helping Bulgaria though.
It takes time,especially for those on the periphery. They will get there 😊
I've heard it described that some people are "people of somewhere" and others are "people of nowhere". The people of somewhere are bedded to the area they grew up, and the people, families etc, and where they are from is part of who they are. The people of nowhere are quite content that all of who they are is just within them, and are happy to live anywhere and still be themselves. I'm not saying either is right or wrong (I can definitely see both traits in myself) but there might be correlation between types and how they voted in the referendum.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
It doesn't appear to be helping Bulgaria though.
It takes time,especially for those on the periphery. They will get there 😊
It will take a lot more time now one of the main contributors is leaving...
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
It doesn't appear to be helping Bulgaria though.
It takes time,especially for those on the periphery. They will get there 😊
It will take a lot more time now one of the main contributors is leaving...
Who knows. They might pick up some of the jobs being relocated from the UK. Whatever, the cohesion policy will continue across mainland Europe.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
My Bulgarian friend is staying in the UK. She is married now and expecting her first child in the new year. I find it very sad that her parents will only get to see their grandchild a few times a year and miss so much of the kid growing up. As for her grandparents - who knows, maybe they only get to hold their great grandchild just a handful of times while they're still alive. For me, free movement of people is not the universal good that some people think it to be.
That's not a particularly good argument: people have always moved countries and always will for a variety of reasons, and migration is part of human history and nature. Besides, the point about not being able to see parents is as relevant as if someone from London moved to Scotland. Cheap, short flights and staying in touch via Skype make contact simple and the economic advantages of working in a country with a higher salary and quality of life easily outweigh the downsides.
Very true, though my first reaction was that Missed it was suggesting that people should be forced to remain where they were born, no matter what the circumstances, so that granny can see the grandchildren whenever she wants too...
I've had this discussion on here before. Is it a good thing to be able to up sticks to where the money is or is it a bad thing that countries with less opportunities are denuded of their best talent and families are split across the continent? I'm something of a homebody and family is important to me. The thought of a family situation where the grandparents have limited contact with their grandchildren for the sake of economics is saddening to me. Skype doesn't convey the smell of a new baby. How do cuddles work on the internet? I don't know. Maybe it's better when the kids turn in to snotty teenagers and you're quite happy to be 1,000 miles away from them!
It's a good thing that people have the choice. Always.
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
Certainly choice is good. But the economic disparities between member states changes the character of that choice. It's not a case of do I fancy going to work in France or Sweden or the UK? It becomes a push factor driving people out of their own country. Maybe its a good thing that the family can move abroad and send home some money to supplement grandma's EUR 70 a month pension. When does it become Hobson's choice?
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
It doesn't appear to be helping Bulgaria though.
It takes time,especially for those on the periphery. They will get there 😊
Just as, historically, EU development has improved the lot of earlier economically undeveloped countries like Spain, Portugal and Ireland (where, even at the depths of the banking crisis, the overall economy was more resilient than it had ever been before joining the EEC/EC/EU). Even Greece was hugely benefitted by EU membership, notwithstanding the real damage experienced in the last ten years.
But it is a generational change, even where the number of accession countries are limited. There are those who might suggest that, had the UK been willing to agree to deepening and strengthening of EU structures, rather than on the rapid expansion of recent decades, the EU membership might have more obvious and immediate impact on the countries that did join.
Comments
They work for a company that collect car tyres for recycling.
They are both adamant that they had a better standard of living under communism.
Like others have said I find it hard that they think like this but the fact is that they do.
Today in 'communist' China the retirement age for women is 55 and for men it is 60.
That is why so many eastern Europeans come to the UK.
I would like to know how many people from the UK go to live in eastern Europe.
BTW how old are the two BG guys you mentioned?
The two guys I am refering to are both in their 40's.
Both have their families back home and both are adamant that life is not very good in Bulgaria.
I have no doubt that plenty of British people live in your neck of the woods.
As for your table tennis skills I have no comment.
Whilst I agree that the EU could be doing more to push former communist countries it is a slow process and having spent quite a bit of time in various former USSR or Warsaw Pact countries, the transformation they have already made since the grim pre -89 days is remarkable and much of that has been due to their desire to modernise and join the rest of Europe.
There is no doubt Bulgaria is a difficult place to live in compared with most EU countries. I am glad I didnt try to move there rather than here in the early 90s. One lesser known fact is that BG population was 9.5m in 1989 but is now only 7.5. Many of them cleared out in the first year after the fall, and they have often been the best and brightest, like my buddy who helped bring us Kishi. its also the case that when the the people of these countries caught glimpses of life in the West, they assumed that all of them would immediately own a Merc and be kitted out in Armani. Was never going to happen, was it?
I have no family "gene" so we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on that one.
This is where the Commission’s Cohesion Policy comes in. The idea being to assist development in the most disadvantaged areas so that people don’t have to move away. Many parts of the UK have benefitted from this policy.
But it is a generational change, even where the number of accession countries are limited. There are those who might suggest that, had the UK been willing to agree to deepening and strengthening of EU structures, rather than on the rapid expansion of recent decades, the EU membership might have more obvious and immediate impact on the countries that did join.