"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
As 'Brexit' has come to mean whatever you want it to mean, that is a question nobody can answer. I did not vote Leave for financial reasons anyway. Business is full of ups and downs. I doubt that will change whatever happens.
The idea that Brexit will fail primarily because of the Irish border situation is typical of the tendency to attribute blame to outside elements, a key feature in the thinking behind the Leave vote.
If Brexit does cause problems it is more likely because of inept planning and a lack of understanding about how the UK is intertwined in so many ways with the EU rather than because of the Irish border, the EU not being fair in negotiations, etc etc.
"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
As 'Brexit' has come to mean whatever you want it to mean, that is a question nobody can answer. I did not vote Leave for financial reasons anyway. Business is full of ups and downs. I doubt that will change whatever happens.
"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
As 'Brexit' has come to mean whatever you want it to mean, that is a question nobody can answer. I did not vote Leave for financial reasons anyway. Business is full of ups and downs. I doubt that will change whatever happens.
OK. Thanks for answering, @Southbank - not every straight question gets answered, either on this thread or elsewhere.
It was a simple yes or no and you've avoided coming down on either side.
For my part, I cannot see any version of Brexit that will have anything other than a negative effect.
So, it seems that there are two opposing views. One that says Brexit will be bad for business. And another that says, "I don't know".
I hope someone can point me to the sunny uplands when they come along. Because I can't see them anywhere.
An interesting and completely bias article. I watch QT every week and it's preposterous to suggest that it is Reality TV. There is a healthy Brexit debate virtually every week and has been for donkey's years. Presumably, that is what europainted are unhappy about ?
"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
As 'Brexit' has come to mean whatever you want it to mean, that is a question nobody can answer. I did not vote Leave for financial reasons anyway. Business is full of ups and downs. I doubt that will change whatever happens.
I think we can take that as bad or at best not good.
It would be far better if it took one subject and had a full discussion on that. I'm not sure it really informs - it is always a case of hurrying the speakers up.
"Impartial journalism is not giving equal airtime to two people one of whom says the world is flat and the other one says the world is round. That is not balanced, impartial journalism.”
It is why I stopped watching Question Time. The BBC seem to make it a priority to give equal air time to experts/professionals and completely wacko Brexit nut jobs.
"Peston said he consistently said on ITV News that leaving the EU would make the UK poorer. “Not massively poorer. I thought the Project Fear bit of the government’s campaign was overdone. But poorer.”
The hysteria of the Remain camp is based on the Project Fear message from the Establishment that "poorer" means the UK economy will be trashed if we leave the EU. So Peston would agree with me, it's misinformation. The projected drag on GDP over 30 years with a no deal Brexit was calculated by the Treasury in 2016 as a 6% drag on GDP which was presented as every household being £4,300 worse off. It has now moved to 8% over 15 years.
On the same basis the Treasury could have told us in 2008, had it been able to predict the drag on GDP of 20% to date, that every household will be £14,000 worse off by 2018. (£14k is a bit of guesstimate but it would be of that sort of order). That drag is the result of none of the anticipated 3% wage growth emerging and the prevailing levels of company investment not increasing in line with historic rates. Nor does GDP growth correlate to growth in spendable income - more misinformation avidly bought into unchallenged by Remainers. Instead of intelligently challenging the propaganda, Brexiteers made the mistake of saying the figures were made up. It's the propaganda use of the numbers which is the problem, not the numbers themselves.
An 8% drag over 15 years is liable to be impacted by 101 other events within and without our control. So fixating on Brexit as the number one danger for our economy is just plain Project Fear, but it seems an entrenched belief that Brexit will destroy any possibility of the UK economy growing.
Brexit should force government to focus on solutions that help the 90% of businesses that employ most of the UK workers and encourage exporting initiatives, instead of pandering to the global giants whose profits, in relative terms, do little to help the UK economy as compared to the small domestic employers.
The difference between the rate of GDP drag with a deal or no-deal is, according to the Treasury forecasts, a few percentage points, a few hundred pounds "per household" nonsense if you like, hardly worth accepting a half-baked Brexit for. The main difference will be on the extent of disruption in reorganisation of services and procedures for business.
You have been flogging this nonsense that Brexit will have an impact on the UK economy no greater than the impact of other big events in the past or in the future for about a year now. Are these forcasts from the idiot 2 or 3 Brexit economists we see rolled out every few months. Have you any evidence to back up your claims?
You seem to have lost track of the debate. Dismissing anything negative about Brexit as Project Fear worked during the referendum but since then the debate has been overtaken by events, facts and truth.
I don't know how many jobs you, or the forcasters you quote, are responsible for creating. I suspect the answer is zero. I do know that the people running small, medium and large manufacturing businesses in the UK responsible for creating 100s of thousands of jobs are unanimous in their view of how disastrous any kind of Brexit, let alone a bad Brexit, will be for the economy and all these jobs. You can't dismiss the views of the people who run these businesses as Project Fear or just more forecasts from so called experts that may or may not turn out to be correct. These people are not making forecasts. They are simply telling us what decisions they will be forced to take in the event of a Brexit that leaves us outside the customs Union and single market and without the benefits of frictionless trade.
I run a small business and the Brexit vote has had no impact on my business, in fact this year is the best one for ages. So we business owners are not unanimous I am afraid. I know many other business owners who say the same thing.
In fact, if you knew nothing about Brexit and avoided the media you would not see any appreciable difference in daily life in the UK between May 2016 and today, except there are fewer people unemployed. Wages are still stagnating, the NHS still has problems and the trains do not run on time. Plus ca change.
Hysterics like yourself appear increasingly eccentric when you claim we are all doomed. The problems we face here preceded Brexit and will carry on after it. The only real difference will be that our political class will no longer have the EU as a scapegoat.
Anecdotes is not the plural of data. But, it will be interesting to see which businesses suffer the consequences of Brexit if it were to go ahead. And which of their suppliers and customers do too.
I was simply challenging the word 'unanimous'. And even if you do not like anecdotes, the fact that there is near full employment and lower net immigration has contributed to my workers having substantial pay rises in order for us to retain them.
Do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
Forgive me, @Southbank if I have missed your reply to this. But, just to repeat the binary question, do you think Brexit will be good or bad for your business?
As 'Brexit' has come to mean whatever you want it to mean, that is a question nobody can answer. I did not vote Leave for financial reasons anyway. Business is full of ups and downs. I doubt that will change whatever happens.
OK. Thanks for answering, @Southbank - not every straight question gets answered, either on this thread or elsewhere.
It was a simple yes or no and you've avoid coming down on either side.
For my part, I cannot see any version of Brexit that will have anything other than a negative effect.
So, it seems that there are two opposing views. One that says Brexit will be bad for business. And another that says, "I don't know".
I hope someone can point me to the sunny uplands when they come along. Because I can't see them anywhere.
This article is essentially saying that being anti-EU is not a legitimate point of view and therefore should not have been given airtime. That is an opinion not shared by the majority of people who voted in the Referendum of course. The focus on MEPs is useful for Remainers but fraudulent as the overall majority on QT are Remainers. The fact that despite that they have not been able to win over the majority is an indictment of them, not the BBC.
An interesting and completely bias article. I watch QT every week and it's preposterous to suggest that it is Reality TV. There is a healthy Brexit debate virtually every week and has been for donkey's years. Presumably, that is what europainted are unhappy about ?
@Covered End . I say this with the greatest respect as I often feel we see the world the same way although from different sides of the political divide (which would obviously make you wrong on everything and me right on everything) but Question Time has been mostly theatre for about 25 years.
The idea that Brexit will fail primarily because of the Irish border situation is typical of the tendency to attribute blame to outside elements, a key feature in the thinking behind the Leave vote.
If Brexit does cause problems it is more likely because of inept planning and a lack of understanding about how the UK is intertwined in so many ways with the EU rather than because of the Irish border, the EU not being fair in negotiations, etc etc.
I was purely stating that where we are currently is mainly down to the Iridh border.
I totally agree with you. The people to blame for all the shitfest is not the electorate but the politicians......namely David Cameron & his Government. Before asking the people to vote on something I would suggest that it would be a bloody good idea to know what you are asking them can actually be delivered. You may as well ask do you want to sun to set this evening, yes or no.
btw......I wasn't swayed by the big red bus, promises of blue passports or Boris as PM. I have had a dislike of the EU for years & was mightly pleased when we didnt join the Euro (which was more fudge from the EU - how many of the 27 met the criterea ? - Grecee on par with Germany ??).
I voted leave for 2 main reasons; The end of freedom of movement & no ECJ. The fact that freedom of movement means leaving the single market/CU is a by-product of the EU's making. Cut the ties between the 2 & a sensible deal could probably be reached.
As I said - that's why I voted to leave. 17 million other people I suggest have 17 million other reasons. I cant talk for them.
The idea that Brexit will fail primarily because of the Irish border situation is typical of the tendency to attribute blame to outside elements, a key feature in the thinking behind the Leave vote.
If Brexit does cause problems it is more likely because of inept planning and a lack of understanding about how the UK is intertwined in so many ways with the EU rather than because of the Irish border, the EU not being fair in negotiations, etc etc.
I was purely stating that where we are currently is mainly down to the Iridh border.
I totally agree with you. The people to blame for all the shitfest is not the electorate but the politicians......namely David Cameron & his Government. Before asking the people to vote on something I would suggest that it would be a bloody good idea to know what you are asking them can actually be delivered. You may as well ask do you want to sun to set this evening, yes or no.
btw......I wasn't swayed by the big red bus, promises of blue passports or Boris as PM. I have had a dislike of the EU for years & was mightly pleased when we didnt join the Euro (which was more fudge from the EU - how many of the 27 met the criterea ? - Grecee on par with Germany ??).
I voted leave for 2 main reasons; The end of freedom of movement & no ECJ. The fact that freedom of movement means leaving the single market/CU is a by-product of the EU's making. Cut the ties between the 2 & a sensible deal could probably be reached.
As I said - that's why I voted to leave. 17 million other people I suggest have 17 million other reasons. I cant talk for them.
Sadly, the fact that you can't and the point you make earlier sums up the problem exactly. Cameron called the referendum because he was sure about the outcome. That makes his actions all the more reckless.
An interesting and completely bias article. I watch QT every week and it's preposterous to suggest that it is Reality TV. There is a healthy Brexit debate virtually every week and has been for donkey's years. Presumably, that is what europainted are unhappy about ?
@Covered End . I say this with the greatest respect as I often feel we see the world the same way although from different sides of the political divide (which would obviously make you wrong on everything and me right on everything) but Question Time has been mostly theatre for about 25 years.
Yes, they have added a "celebrity" to the panel & occasionally they are idiotic like Russel Brand. But I don't see any real harm in asking the opinion of an author (this week) as opposed to purely politicians. It is still a serious debating programme and if it was anything like reality TV, then my wife would watch it
Arron Banks, Putin’s useful idiot still at it. Piece from C4 news last night. Russian Ambassador was also asked later in the programme about meetings with him. Not much in the way of a response as you can imagine.
Accession is a process, and Mr. Juncker's term ends next year - even if it didnt, he does not have the power to make decisions about expansion or otherwise - it's unlikely that any of the accession states are on the cusp of finally joining. But they are on a path to EU membership, and I'd expect will continue along it, unless Mr. Putin and his friends are successful.
The decision about expansion rests with the member states, as does that of deepening EU structures, which may also happen, but is also unlikely in the short term.
I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!
True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
I often chat about this with a Bulgarian that I work with. The only real plus of Bulgaria's EU membership for her was that she could finally get out of Bulgaria. It's basically the poorest and most corrupt country in the EU and as far many of her family and friends back there can say, the EU has done little or nothing to improve matters. Her family have been subject to death threats from criminal gangs trying to extort protection money from her dad's business. What does the EU actually do about it, apart from publish an annual report confirming that Bulgaria is the still the most corrupt country in the EU and it must try harder. They've been under "temporary" monitoring measures against corruption ever since they joined in 2007 and nothing has really changed, corruption and organised crime are rife.
Many of her friends and relatives feel that life was better under communism. Nobody was a millionaire but everybody generally made do with what they had and the state provided. That was an eye opener for me, someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s when we were all convinced commies were the enemy and their people were victims of totalitarian oppression. Turns out there are plenty of them who'd prefer that to what the EU has left them with.
If the EU has made such minimal progress in reforming an actual member in Bulgaria, what hope is there of ever getting former Yugoslavian states in line? Croatia had their accession messed about for years by Slovenia. When they finally agreed arbitration on border disputes they let Croatia in, only for the Croats to turn round within a couple of years and refuse to abide with what they agreed. Croatia has the same sort of disputes going on with Serbia and you can bet the house that Croatia will extract maximum advantage before they consent to Serbia's accession.
Former Yugoslavian states may well want to join the EU, but by the same token, do the EU want to accept them in? What is the EU's actual appetite for the Balkans and their endless aggravations and bitter enmities?
Some of them may have felt better off under communism, but it isn't a system that has shown itself to make people's live's better generally. What it does do is ensure some people are unprepared for a capitalist economy and the sharks and crooks move in. Caring capitalism whith its emphasis on social justice above all else has to be the future but we seem a long way off it. Making money isn't a crime, doing well isn't a crime but there are many that aspire to do both whilst not crapping on the less fortunate.
Some of them may have felt better off under communism, but it isn't a system that has shown itself to make people's live's better generally. What it does do is ensure some people are unprepared for a capitalist economy and the sharks and crooks move in. Caring capitalism which its emphasis on social justice above all else has to be the future but we seem a long way off it. Making money isn't a crime, doing well isn't a crime but there are many that aspire to do both whilst not crapping on the less fortunate.
Point taken re: communism/capitalism but that's not really what I was getting at. For me the issue is that the EU is supposed to be the driver for reform in the ex-eastern bloc countries and as far as I can see they are failing in that regard. The EU let Bulgaria join too soon while their institutions were still corrupt with weak law enforcement and now that Bulgaria is an EU member, seem powerless to improve the situation.
That's a fair point about Bulgaria. I do quite a lot of work in Romania and the situation is similar. Some of the stories I have heard about the siphoning of off EU funds for infrastructure work is shocking - roads being constructed for a quarter of the cost stated with the rest of the money being pocketed by corrupt officials. The EU needs to do much more about monitoring how its funding is used.
This combined with the brain drain of people leaving if they can has left quite a feeling of ambivalence towards the EU, though there is recognition that being in it is a sign of progress and the money sent back by Romanians working abroad is a boost for the economy. Generally, like a lot of countries in that part of Europe, there is a feeling of being between the sphere of influence of Russia and Western Europe and on balance there is much more appetite for the latter. I lived for a while in the Czech Republic and that was certainly the case there as well.
Well to that I visited Bulgaria a total of 5 times between 87-89, so i saw Communist Bulgaria close up. Its a common refrain among some in all these countries, but that doesnt make it true by any rational measure. My friends are all uni grads. But under communism what hope did they have to better themselves? The guys were moneychanging on the beach just to try and do something for themselves.
One of the women is a lawyer. She has one of those gangsters as a client. Someone has to do it. Far from being a bent lawyer, she said she would prefer that Bulgarian law and courts was completely given over to the EU. But of course that cannot happen. Can you imagine the outcry here if Juncker even mused on something like that. In 1996 my best buddy was so unnerved by the lackmof security that he came up to Prague to investigate whether he could run the biz from here in safer environmnet for his family. But he stayed, now they have two beautful houses, his wife also a successful lawyer. The thing is that they had the character and resolve to work hard in trying circumstances Quite what you expect the EU to do now is beyond me. Look at Poland. The EU is rightly disquieted and many Poles want it to intervene. But when it does, the populists build up a head of steam, and not just in Poland about outside interference. There's your answer, right there.
The mistake we all made, including people like me when we first arrived, was to think that when you announce "democracy" everybody starts behaving like in Iceland. It takes ages to take root. But I can tell you that when my friends and I got together on the Black Sea Coast, 31 years after we first met, none of us for one moment thought the EU was worse than Communism.
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Accession is a process, and Mr. Juncker's term ends next year - even if it didnt, he does not have the power to make decisions about expansion or otherwise - it's unlikely that any of the accession states are on the cusp of finally joining. But they are on a path to EU membership, and I'd expect will continue along it, unless Mr. Putin and his friends are successful.
The decision about expansion rests with the member states, as does that of deepening EU structures, which may also happen, but is also unlikely in the short term.
I guess the old drunk was just flapping his gums again then. Who put him in charge of anything?!
True, it's a process and there are many bumps in the road. Iceland were in that process and thought better of it. It's laudable that the EU tries to use membership as incentive for reformation of these former Eastern Bloc European countries, but I'm doubtful Serbia would ever reach the civic standards of a nation like Iceland. Maybe 5 years will be long enough for Serbia to sort out its human rights issues, or police up the huge number of unregistered weapons in circulation. I suspect not.
I do understand where you are coming from, but I am probably unique on here in that I live in one of those countries that went down the path. I came here in '93, and the accession took place in 2004. Many of the biggest reforms took place before 2004- compliance. Like in any country you had different strands of opinion. Not everyone celebrated the fall of communism, and some smartarses who gained power, didn't want any pesky foreigners pointing out to the naive electorate what they were really about. But the clear majority wanted to be European again, and this desire helped push through the reforms that ensured the country was cleared to join. Joining the European club gives people a common sense of how they want to live, which helps for a more coherent politics.
The Balkans are a right bloody handful, and I say that as someone with several cherished friends in/from Bulgaria, as well as a Serbian mate who lives here. Quite a few of my Bulgarian friends would have liked the EU to have been tougher on them before joining, and that for me is the key lesson in how to deal with the West Balkan applicants. But hold out the possibility, please. Millions of them see it as their future.
I often chat about this with a Bulgarian that I work with. The only real plus of Bulgaria's EU membership for her was that she could finally get out of Bulgaria. It's basically the poorest and most corrupt country in the EU and as far many of her family and friends back there can say, the EU has done little or nothing to improve matters. Her family have been subject to death threats from criminal gangs trying to extort protection money from her dad's business. What does the EU actually do about it, apart from publish an annual report confirming that Bulgaria is the still the most corrupt country in the EU and it must try harder. They've been under "temporary" monitoring measures against corruption ever since they joined in 2007 and nothing has really changed, corruption and organised crime are rife.
Many of her friends and relatives feel that life was better under communism. Nobody was a millionaire but everybody generally made do with what they had and the state provided. That was an eye opener for me, someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s when we were all convinced commies were the enemy and their people were victims of totalitarian oppression. Turns out there are plenty of them who'd prefer that to what the EU has left them with.
If the EU has made such minimal progress in reforming an actual member in Bulgaria, what hope is there of ever getting former Yugoslavian states in line? Croatia had their accession messed about for years by Slovenia. When they finally agreed arbitration on border disputes they let Croatia in, only for the Croats to turn round within a couple of years and refuse to abide with what they agreed. Croatia has the same sort of disputes going on with Serbia and you can bet the house that Croatia will extract maximum advantage before they consent to Serbia's accession.
Former Yugoslavian states may well want to join the EU, but by the same token, do the EU want to accept them in? What is the EU's actual appetite for the Balkans and their endless aggravations and bitter enmities?
Aren't you just making the case for more EU intervention into domestic affairs here?
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
The idea that Brexit will fail primarily because of the Irish border situation is typical of the tendency to attribute blame to outside elements, a key feature in the thinking behind the Leave vote.
If Brexit does cause problems it is more likely because of inept planning and a lack of understanding about how the UK is intertwined in so many ways with the EU rather than because of the Irish border, the EU not being fair in negotiations, etc etc.
I was purely stating that where we are currently is mainly down to the Iridh border.
I totally agree with you. The people to blame for all the shitfest is not the electorate but the politicians......namely David Cameron & his Government. Before asking the people to vote on something I would suggest that it would be a bloody good idea to know what you are asking them can actually be delivered. You may as well ask do you want to sun to set this evening, yes or no.
btw......I wasn't swayed by the big red bus, promises of blue passports or Boris as PM. I have had a dislike of the EU for years & was mightly pleased when we didnt join the Euro (which was more fudge from the EU - how many of the 27 met the criterea ? - Grecee on par with Germany ??).
I voted leave for 2 main reasons; The end of freedom of movement & no ECJ. The fact that freedom of movement means leaving the single market/CU is a by-product of the EU's making. Cut the ties between the 2 & a sensible deal could probably be reached.
As I said - that's why I voted to leave. 17 million other people I suggest have 17 million other reasons. I cant talk for them.
An excellent summary of the situation in that we had a yes/no vote back in 2016 where Remain was defined as where we are today. Whilst Leave meant anything except the status quo or a recipe for a protest vote if ever there was one.
It was an advisory vote so the Government could ignore or they might take an extreme position. The simplest solution is actually BINO or a very long transition.
This might be followed by a campaign full of angst by those who wish to leave everything. Those who talk of a "vassel state" should feel free to continue their campaign. However, poll after poll shows that only one third of the country wants to leave everything.
And ideally, any follow up is prosecuted via a parliamentary campaign by some Alt-right group such as the ERG/ UKIP / DUP. In other words they can hold their views but it's only the history and construction of the Tory Party which has empowered them up until this point. They are a minority cult within a minority government.
Of the 17 million who voted leave, we know three million were UKIP voters with a set manifesto but its impossible to define the precise mix for the rest. For sure there's an issue with immigration but that is now way down the list in attitudinal surveys - has immigration changed or is it simply not on the tabloid front pages every day?
The likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and Farage will continue with their agendas whatever the outcome next week and in March. All we should ask is that the electorate have a genuine choice between a socialist Labour option, the Alt-right and a one nation conservative view. And no doubt there will be a new centrist option once the time is right and if the protagonists can get their act together!
For those who subscribe to third technocratic way without a guiding philosophy, think Macron, think Blair! Not sure it will sell that well in the forseeable future - not when populists are on the rise.
With regards to your points on the Euro, that probably requires a separate thread for along with Brexit, the EU is entering ground breaking territory when it comes to the single currency. It's another front line where alt-right populists are faced with reality - this time Rome is faced with the markets pushing the spread between Italy and Germany to above 300 basis points.
Totally agree that we are best out of that and would add that the EU really doesn't need the UK right now. An extreme outcome is that all EU nations should choose between the Euro and EFTA over the next five-ten years. And the UK would do well to sit in EFTA next to Norway, awaiting the outcome of discussions within Poland, Sweden and Denmark. For those three countries make up the lions share of the non Euro part of the EU, once the UK leaves next March.
Again thanks for your honest contributions (and for those from @Southbank ). I'm obviously a remainer, but one who has believed for sometime that our country belongs in EFTA. So not in the EU neither should we park ourselves in the Atlantic and that was before Trump arrived.
It's my belief that the Customs Union and Single Market retain clear majority support in our country. And once we leave the EU, entering a transition period we should then have a clean in / out debate about life after transition in 2021. In short, we need an election AFTER we have left in order to restore democratic legitimacy to the situation.
The Customs Union is a very simple discussion and might even be resolved over the next few days. However the single Market is far, far more complex and nuanced. The time to research and debate is probably after we have left - and that is where both the UK and EU are at right now. First we leave and then we discuss the future relationship.
Some remainers simply don't want to leave. It would appear that they are still at anger or denial in the five stages of grief! For the sake of the nation, we all need to arrive at acceptance and for a long time it has become apparent that to close this chapter in our history, we need to Leave.
Well to that I visited Bulgaria a total of 5 times between 87-89, so i saw Communist Bulgaria close up. Its a common refrain among some in all these countries, but that doesnt make it true by any rational measure. My friends are all uni grads. But under communism what hope did they have to better themselves? The guys were moneychanging on the beach just to try and do something for themselves.
One of the women is a lawyer. She has one of those gangsters as a client. Someone has to do it. Far from being a bent lawyer, she said she would prefer that Bulgarian law and courts was completely given over to the EU. But of course that cannot happen. Can you imagine the outcry here if Juncker even mused on something like that. In 1996 my best buddy was so unnerved by the lackmof security that he came up to Prague to investigate whether he could run the biz from here in safer environmnet for his family. But he stayed, now they have two beautful houses, his wife also a successful lawyer. The thing is that they had the character and resolve to work hard in trying circumstances Quite what you expect the EU to do now is beyond me. Look at Poland. The EU is rightly disquieted and many Poles want it to intervene. But when it does, the populists build up a head of steam, and not just in Poland about outside interference. There's your answer, right there.
The mistake we all made, including people like me when we first arrived, was to think that when you announce "democracy" everybody starts behaving like in Iceland. It takes ages to take root. But I can tell you that when my friends and I got together on the Black Sea Coast, 31 years after we first met, none of us for one moment thought the EU was worse than Communism.
I'm as shocked as you are that some people still have a nostalgic longing for the days of communism, but that is what I get in my admitted limited anecdotal knowledge of Bulgarian daily life. I've heard the same from Russians too, but that's more to do with dubious people getting super rich and everybody else getting screwed.
Should the member countries of the EU be responsible for their own compliance with membership requirements or should the supranational authority of the EU intervene to ensure compliance? As you say, that's the $64,000 question that pours petrol on the eurosceptic fire. But there are standards that the EU set out and all the member countries signed up to them. What is the point of them if they're not adhered to?
Yes, but maybe too much is expected of the EU in that respect.
Sorry, don't buy that at all. If the EU set standards for membership like Copenhagen criteria, GDP/debt targets etc. what is the point if they let in countries that don't meet them in the first place and are ineffective in ensuring continued compliance? The EU is responsible for its own standards, nobody else. Why is it expecting too much for them actually meet and enforce those standards?
Its true as @CharltonMadrid wrote that the EU should put in tougher audits of how money is deployed. At the same time you need to remember that "the EU" Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour. Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
As I have mentioned previously I worked on EU Accession projects in Hungary and then Bulgaria between 2002 - 2006. There is much in what you say about getting the politians you vote for. It has been very disheartening to see both of these countries go down the populist hard man route with Orban in Hungary and Borissov in Bulgaria. But it isn’t only in Central/Eastern Europe we see this happening and corruption comes in many forms. Perhaps the former communist states are just a bit less subtle about it!
As far as I am concerned there is a much bigger picture being played out here. One that will ensure peace, security and economic stability across Europe because of the efforts of the EU. Of course it will take time for the fledgling democracies to shake off the practices of the past. But I ‘m sure with the input of the many extremely talented and hopeful young officials I worked alongside they will get there eventually.
Comments
If Brexit does cause problems it is more likely because of inept planning and a lack of understanding about how the UK is intertwined in so many ways with the EU rather than because of the Irish border, the EU not being fair in negotiations, etc etc.
It was a simple yes or no and you've avoided coming down on either side.
For my part, I cannot see any version of Brexit that will have anything other than a negative effect.
So, it seems that there are two opposing views. One that says Brexit will be bad for business. And another that says, "I don't know".
I hope someone can point me to the sunny uplands when they come along. Because I can't see them anywhere.
I watch QT every week and it's preposterous to suggest that it is Reality TV.
There is a healthy Brexit debate virtually every week and has been for donkey's years.
Presumably, that is what europainted are unhappy about ?
They are behind you @Chizz .
The focus on MEPs is useful for Remainers but fraudulent as the overall majority on QT are Remainers. The fact that despite that they have not been able to win over the majority is an indictment of them, not the BBC.
I totally agree with you. The people to blame for all the shitfest is not the electorate but the politicians......namely David Cameron & his Government. Before asking the people to vote on something I would suggest that it would be a bloody good idea to know what you are asking them can actually be delivered. You may as well ask do you want to sun to set this evening, yes or no.
btw......I wasn't swayed by the big red bus, promises of blue passports or Boris as PM. I have had a dislike of the EU for years & was mightly pleased when we didnt join the Euro (which was more fudge from the EU - how many of the 27 met the criterea ? - Grecee on par with Germany ??).
I voted leave for 2 main reasons; The end of freedom of movement & no ECJ. The fact that freedom of movement means leaving the single market/CU is a by-product of the EU's making. Cut the ties between the 2 & a sensible deal could probably be reached.
As I said - that's why I voted to leave. 17 million other people I suggest have 17 million other reasons. I cant talk for them.
But I don't see any real harm in asking the opinion of an author (this week) as opposed to purely politicians.
It is still a serious debating programme and if it was anything like reality TV, then my wife would watch it
Arron Banks, Putin’s useful idiot still at it. Piece from C4 news last night. Russian Ambassador was also asked later in the programme about meetings with him. Not much in the way of a response as you can imagine.
I wish the same could be said of with regards to "professional" commentators and politicians.
Many of her friends and relatives feel that life was better under communism. Nobody was a millionaire but everybody generally made do with what they had and the state provided. That was an eye opener for me, someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s when we were all convinced commies were the enemy and their people were victims of totalitarian oppression. Turns out there are plenty of them who'd prefer that to what the EU has left them with.
If the EU has made such minimal progress in reforming an actual member in Bulgaria, what hope is there of ever getting former Yugoslavian states in line? Croatia had their accession messed about for years by Slovenia. When they finally agreed arbitration on border disputes they let Croatia in, only for the Croats to turn round within a couple of years and refuse to abide with what they agreed. Croatia has the same sort of disputes going on with Serbia and you can bet the house that Croatia will extract maximum advantage before they consent to Serbia's accession.
Former Yugoslavian states may well want to join the EU, but by the same token, do the EU want to accept them in? What is the EU's actual appetite for the Balkans and their endless aggravations and bitter enmities?
This combined with the brain drain of people leaving if they can has left quite a feeling of ambivalence towards the EU, though there is recognition that being in it is a sign of progress and the money sent back by Romanians working abroad is a boost for the economy. Generally, like a lot of countries in that part of Europe, there is a feeling of being between the sphere of influence of Russia and Western Europe and on balance there is much more appetite for the latter. I lived for a while in the Czech Republic and that was certainly the case there as well.
Well to that I visited Bulgaria a total of 5 times between 87-89, so i saw Communist Bulgaria close up. Its a common refrain among some in all these countries, but that doesnt make it true by any rational measure. My friends are all uni grads. But under communism what hope did they have to better themselves? The guys were moneychanging on the beach just to try and do something for themselves.
One of the women is a lawyer. She has one of those gangsters as a client. Someone has to do it. Far from being a bent lawyer, she said she would prefer that Bulgarian law and courts was completely given over to the EU. But of course that cannot happen. Can you imagine the outcry here if Juncker even mused on something like that. In 1996 my best buddy was so unnerved by the lackmof security that he came up to Prague to investigate whether he could run the biz from here in safer environmnet for his family. But he stayed, now they have two beautful houses, his wife also a successful lawyer. The thing is that they had the character and resolve to work hard in trying circumstances Quite what you expect the EU to do now is beyond me. Look at Poland. The EU is rightly disquieted and many Poles want it to intervene. But when it does, the populists build up a head of steam, and not just in Poland about outside interference. There's your answer, right there.
The mistake we all made, including people like me when we first arrived, was to think that when you announce "democracy" everybody starts behaving like in Iceland. It takes ages to take root. But I can tell you that when my friends and I got together on the Black Sea Coast, 31 years after we first met, none of us for one moment thought the EU was worse than Communism.
Is not a bunch of little green men from Mars but politicians from Member States, including the UK,all of whom will have varying views on the wisdom of "interference". Its also true that many of the politicians who most wanted to support these countries are those who tend to see the best of people and did not anticipate quite such widespread bad behaviour.
Finally we should not let the citizens of those countries have an entirely free ride. They have the freedom to vote out corrupt politicians. Reform in a democratice country has to haplen in that country, something the typical Brexiteer often seems to conveniently forget. Still, you'll have your chance soon. And lets hope your Bulgarian friend feels able and willjng to stay.
It was an advisory vote so the Government could ignore or they might take an extreme position. The simplest solution is actually BINO or a very long transition.
This might be followed by a campaign full of angst by those who wish to leave everything. Those who talk of a "vassel state" should feel free to continue their campaign. However, poll after poll shows that only one third of the country wants to leave everything.
And ideally, any follow up is prosecuted via a parliamentary campaign by some Alt-right group such as the ERG/ UKIP / DUP. In other words they can hold their views but it's only the history and construction of the Tory Party which has empowered them up until this point. They are a minority cult within a minority government.
Of the 17 million who voted leave, we know three million were UKIP voters with a set manifesto but its impossible to define the precise mix for the rest. For sure there's an issue with immigration but that is now way down the list in attitudinal surveys - has immigration changed or is it simply not on the tabloid front pages every day?
The likes of Johnson, Rees Mogg and Farage will continue with their agendas whatever the outcome next week and in March. All we should ask is that the electorate have a genuine choice between a socialist Labour option, the Alt-right and a one nation conservative view. And no doubt there will be a new centrist option once the time is right and if the protagonists can get their act together!
For those who subscribe to third technocratic way without a guiding philosophy, think Macron, think Blair! Not sure it will sell that well in the forseeable future - not when populists are on the rise.
With regards to your points on the Euro, that probably requires a separate thread for along with Brexit, the EU is entering ground breaking territory when it comes to the single currency. It's another front line where alt-right populists are faced with reality - this time Rome is faced with the markets pushing the spread between Italy and Germany to above 300 basis points.
Totally agree that we are best out of that and would add that the EU really doesn't need the UK right now. An extreme outcome is that all EU nations should choose between the Euro and EFTA over the next five-ten years. And the UK would do well to sit in EFTA next to Norway, awaiting the outcome of discussions within Poland, Sweden and Denmark. For those three countries make up the lions share of the non Euro part of the EU, once the UK leaves next March.
Again thanks for your honest contributions (and for those from @Southbank ). I'm obviously a remainer, but one who has believed for sometime that our country belongs in EFTA. So not in the EU neither should we park ourselves in the Atlantic and that was before Trump arrived.
It's my belief that the Customs Union and Single Market retain clear majority support in our country. And once we leave the EU, entering a transition period we should then have a clean in / out debate about life after transition in 2021. In short, we need an election AFTER we have left in order to restore democratic legitimacy to the situation.
The Customs Union is a very simple discussion and might even be resolved over the next few days. However the single Market is far, far more complex and nuanced. The time to research and debate is probably after we have left - and that is where both the UK and EU are at right now. First we leave and then we discuss the future relationship.
Some remainers simply don't want to leave. It would appear that they are still at anger or denial in the five stages of grief! For the sake of the nation, we all need to arrive at acceptance and for a long time it has become apparent that to close this chapter in our history, we need to Leave.
Should the member countries of the EU be responsible for their own compliance with membership requirements or should the supranational authority of the EU intervene to ensure compliance? As you say, that's the $64,000 question that pours petrol on the eurosceptic fire. But there are standards that the EU set out and all the member countries signed up to them. What is the point of them if they're not adhered to?
As far as I am concerned there is a much bigger picture being played out here. One that will ensure peace, security and economic stability across Europe because of the efforts of the EU. Of course it will take time for the fledgling democracies to shake off the practices of the past. But I ‘m sure with the input of the many extremely talented and hopeful young officials I worked alongside they will get there eventually.