Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
If you were a passionate remainer, and consider Brexit a big deal, why would you vote for a party that supports Brexit?
Some, like me, voted Lib Dem. But I recognise it was a completely pointless and futile gesture. Most Labour Remainers were not willing to do that. Who would you suggest they vote for?
Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
If you were a passionate remainer, and consider Brexit a big deal, why would you vote for a party that supports Brexit?
Alastair Campbell voted Labour at the last election. Are you suggesting that secretly he is in favour of Brexit?
I think it is accepted that most Labour supporters voted remain. It is just there are firm remainers in the northern Labour heartlands that are hard to ignore.
Or possibly not....
There hasn't been much more than a cigarette paper between the official Conservative and Labour positions on Brexit - both are determined to leave and both rely on magical thinking regarding the EU's approach to the Single Market. The Conference composite motion changes almost nothing.
I agree with this. My belief is that the Labour Party have played a very smart game by saying as little as they can on Brexit.
With regards to a deal on leaving, the EU have basically made it clear that there is no cherry picking and are completely intransigent (as is their right to be). Anyone claiming they can get a "good deal" is lying. Anyone that claims they can have access to the single market whilst leaving the EU is also lying. The only "good deal" with the EU is remaining in the EU, and with that all the institutions and jurisdictions etc.
Labour are trying to hedge their bets by showing enough leg to those who want to believe they might be able to do something, whilst not looking like they will overturn the result, effectively winking to both groups of voters within clear sight of the other.
Should give enough to the usual "Tories are mean and killing everyone for fun" morons though.
I really do hope that the Labour leadership are playing a smart game. Thing is I don’t think they are that smart. I think Corbyn wants to be all things to all people with regard to Brexit. Watch the Tories stumble it over the line and be just popular enough to snatch a general election victory in the aftermath.
Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
If you were a passionate remainer, and consider Brexit a big deal, why would you vote for a party that supports Brexit?
Some, like me, voted Lib Dem. But I recognise it was a completely pointless and futile gesture. Most Labour Remainers were not willing to do that. Who would you suggest they vote for?
A party that aligns with their views. It may be that Brexit wasn’t top of their agenda and that nationalising the railways or something was of greater importance however.
If you want succinct, here we go (don't get too excited). Labour is better than those vile Tories.
Future #Labour Government.
1. Corbyn as PM 😆😆😆 2. Mcdonnell as Chancellor of the exchequer. 😆😆😆 3. Abbott as Home Secretary. 😆😆😆 4. Butler as Chief Whip. 😆😆😆 5. Lammy as Education secretary. 😆😆😆
Vote for that, I dare you.
I doubt it will happen. Corbyn will probably get the chop by McDonnell in tbe same way that Ken Livingstone disposed of Andrew McIntosh when Labour last won the GLC election.
The Labour left is very good at engineering party procedures amd rules to get what they want. They dress it up as democracy until they don't like what the membership tells them - witness the hectoring dinosaur McClusky.
I am not sure how the conference will play out to floating voters but to me it looks a repeat of the 70s and 80s where it's all about the party and some of its big egos. As @NornIrishAddick said earlier, Corbyn's high water mark may have passed.
Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
I'm not so sure - the Labour position is a lot more flexible on some of the red lines such as free movement. They would also have a bargaining position around they fact the EU will not hold them responsible for the mess. But it is irrelevant as Labour are not negotiating a deal, May's government is trying to.
Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
I can't see where you took that inference from.
During my management studies I was told that if somebody fails to understand a communication, it is the fault of the person who tried to convey the message, so I apologise if I wasn't clear.
I am sure that the majority of the people that voted Labour in the last general election were indeed hoping that Labour would foil Brexit and ensure that the UK remain in the EU. This makes no sense.
The Lib Dems were the only remain party and yet many people, presumably hated them so much due to the uni fees that they invested their vote in a party that stated they would take the UK out of the EU.
Until now, Corbyn has managed to muddle their position during his public utterances. The Labour Party's swivel eyed remainers might have just guaranteed that the Tories stay in power by losing many of their traditional voters.
Always voted Labour when I lived in the UK but their stance (or lack of) on Brexit means I probably wouldn't again if I return, unless they have a complete change in leadership.
Considering the UK are in possibly the most perilous situation in living memory the quality of politicians on all sides must be the worst ever, making it even more likely to go badly. Very difficult to imagine who could be the next half decent PM for either party.
I do think Labour are hedging their bets a bit on the 2nd referendum. But I also think the vote will come down to an in or out as Keir Starmer is suggesting, if there is a feeling it will benefit them at the polls which I suspect it would.
Despite many people pointing out that 85% of the general electorate voted for Brexit if they voted Tory or Labour, we were told this was bollox by some of those who voted Labour.
It seems that you really didn't know what you voted for. I'm not going to claim that you were lied to though. Everybody was told the Labour Party respected the referendum, apart from Lammy etc of course.
Still not enough for me to vote Corbyn though, far from it.
Are you seriously suggesting that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit? I was told to check my tin foil helmet was secured properly last week. Perhaps you should check yours?
They voted for a party that supports Brexit, which was The point TT was trying to make.
A fair few people have said over and over again that The labour leadership is pro-Brexit, some people have continued to deny that, after today, there can be no doubt, surely?
That was not the point he was making. It is a simple statement of fact that people who voted Labour at the last election voted for a party that supported Brexit. The completely false inference he was making, and many Brexit politicians have tried the same thing since the election, is that everyone who voted Labour at the last election were in favour of Brexit. I know many people who voted Labour at the last election who are more passionate Remainers than I am. There is no question that the vast majority of Labour voters support staying in the EU. To say that 85% of people at the last election voted for parties that support Brexit therefore 85% of voters are in favour of Brexit is simply nonsense.
If you were a passionate remainer, and consider Brexit a big deal, why would you vote for a party that supports Brexit?
Some, like me, voted Lib Dem. But I recognise it was a completely pointless and futile gesture. Most Labour Remainers were not willing to do that. Who would you suggest they vote for?
A party that aligns with their views. It may be that Brexit wasn’t top of their agenda and that nationalising the railways or something was of greater importance however.
Not that simple. I voted for Clive Efford last time because I wanted to limit May's mandate, he is a good MP and a Remainer
What I think is possible, though highly unlikely is that a Labour government attempts to negotiate Brexit with a time extension. So if it doesn't like May's plan and it doesn't want a hard Brexit, what choice would they give the public.
What I think is possible, though highly unlikely is that a Labour government attempts to negotiate Brexit with a time extension. So if it doesn't like May's plan and it doesn't want a hard Brexit, what choice would they give the public.
As far as I can see, a large part of the difficulty facing the two main parties is that they are not seeking to negotiate Brexit, but the post-Brexit trade deal (for such deal, at the moment, a broad brush political agreement is all that is required). Key to a Brexit agreement is agreeing a backstop for the Irish border, for which neither HM Government nor HM Loyal Opposition appear to have any plans.
Someone really needs to have a word with the relevant party "leaders" and explain that, when time is limited in talks, as now, the relative positions of both the cart and the horse can prove a bit more important than they appear to fondly imagine.
The backstop is merely the insurance policy, should a future trade deal not prove possible (the EU perspective seems to be that if all else fails Northern Ireland be treated like Tenerife, in reverse, so that a different relationship with the EU can exist without any diminution of sovereignty).
Personally, I believe that Corbyn is hoping that the Government will fall in mid- to late February 2019, leading to a General Election that has to be called for after the end of March (because of the required campaigning time). This way, he can attempt to continue presenting himself as all things to all men, without the responsibility of actual leadership.
Seeing as the Conservatives is made up of 50% hard brexiteers & 50% hard remainers.......and Labour is split between those who want to remain (Lammy etc), those who want to respect the Referendum (Mclusky, McDonell etc) and those who want a type of CU (Stermer & Corbyn) then wouldn't it be better if the old parties disbanded for the next 6-12 months & joined forces in their respective camps.
As something I've been going on about for the past year yet shouted down as being scaremongering...Government finally admits that planes won't be flying post No-Brexit. Now if only every single newspaper had this as a front page article...
Seeing as the Conservatives is made up of 50% hard brexiteers & 50% hard remainers.......and Labour is split between those who want to remain (Lammy etc), those who want to respect the Referendum (Mclusky, McDonell etc) and those who want a type of CU (Stermer & Corbyn) then wouldn't it be better if the old parties disbanded for the next 6-12 months & joined forces in their respective camps.
Would make Brexit easier.
100% not true. I know you're trying to make a different point but the actual breakdown of MP's who supported Leave, let alone a hard Brexit, against those supporting Remain is nowhere near 50/50.
Yep. And a bit frightening that they will sell this bullshite plan to plenty of voters.
"...As if to prove he really was as stupid as he sounded, Singham went on to suggest that post-Brexit, the UK might do some individual trade deals with separate EU countries..."
Not really illustrating the sort of background research one would hope from the "country's leading trade lawyer."
That motion is symptomatic of what is happening with our main two political parties at the moment. That is that nobody wants to be in charge on 29th March 2019. Every senior politician, despite what their public utterances are, is terrified of being the one holding the fort on that day. Regardless or what kind of deal (or even if we stay in the EU completely) because they know whoever is left carrying the can for the final outcome is going to be out of power the next chance the country gets. This is why the tories have May in charge, because anyone with the sense that might make them a good PM is steering well clear till this shitstorm is over. This is why Labour have no clear idea what their position is, because they don't want to jump the wrong way and risk losing big time at the next time we go to the polls.
Essentially I think we are left with the C-list politicians until this majestically mis-managed process is over at which point all those who think they want to be in charge will suddenly jump and shout 'I can fix it'. Rather than trying to stand up when it matters and risk being the wrong side of an argument nobody understands and nobody wants to lose.
Essentially both sides are cowardly protecting their own political careers rather than trying to form a coherent solution that will work for both this country and the EU. In my view post referendum the negotiations should have been handled by a non-partisan team to at least try and form a position that would be more representative of the needs of the country as a whole.
I think Labour adopting the principle of a second referendum is more important than the detail of it at this stage. It is hard to see how there won't be an opportunity within it to remain when the time comes. I think it is wrong if it thinks an election is the better way to resolve the issue. My belief is that a second referendum is needed and a clear result for either side - of course I want that to be to remain, but a clear result is what is needed for people to accept it and stop arguing about it. We need to try to unite the country and Brexit has divided it unlike any other thing and that is very sad.
A second referendum would have better informed voters from both sides and whatever the result, it can't be accused of being undemocratic. People may say, you can't keep asking people until they give you the response you want, but I say that you should if their response is likely to have changed. And if that is not the case, why would Brexiters not want it to put the dissenters to bed and have another vote? It can only be because they respect democracy, when it gives them what they want.
Comments
I really do hope that the Labour leadership are playing a smart game. Thing is I don’t think they are that smart. I think Corbyn wants to be all things to all people with regard to Brexit. Watch the Tories stumble it over the line and be just popular enough to snatch a general election victory in the aftermath.
The Labour left is very good at engineering party procedures amd rules to get what they want. They dress it up as democracy until they don't like what the membership tells them - witness the hectoring dinosaur McClusky.
I am not sure how the conference will play out to floating voters but to me it looks a repeat of the 70s and 80s where it's all about the party and some of its big egos. As @NornIrishAddick said earlier, Corbyn's high water mark may have passed.
During my management studies I was told that if somebody fails to understand a communication, it is the fault of the person who tried to convey the message, so I apologise if I wasn't clear.
I am sure that the majority of the people that voted Labour in the last general election were indeed hoping that Labour would foil Brexit and ensure that the UK remain in the EU. This makes no sense.
The Lib Dems were the only remain party and yet many people, presumably hated them so much due to the uni fees that they invested their vote in a party that stated they would take the UK out of the EU.
Until now, Corbyn has managed to muddle their position during his public utterances. The Labour Party's swivel eyed remainers might have just guaranteed that the Tories stay in power by losing many of their traditional voters.
Unless their position changes of course.
newsthump.com/2018/09/24/labour-insists-peoples-vote-should-be-between-catastrophic-no-deal-brexit-and-catastrophic-brexit-deal/
Considering the UK are in possibly the most perilous situation in living memory the quality of politicians on all sides must be the worst ever, making it even more likely to go badly. Very difficult to imagine who could be the next half decent PM for either party.
Someone really needs to have a word with the relevant party "leaders" and explain that, when time is limited in talks, as now, the relative positions of both the cart and the horse can prove a bit more important than they appear to fondly imagine.
The backstop is merely the insurance policy, should a future trade deal not prove possible (the EU perspective seems to be that if all else fails Northern Ireland be treated like Tenerife, in reverse, so that a different relationship with the EU can exist without any diminution of sovereignty).
Personally, I believe that Corbyn is hoping that the Government will fall in mid- to late February 2019, leading to a General Election that has to be called for after the end of March (because of the required campaigning time). This way, he can attempt to continue presenting himself as all things to all men, without the responsibility of actual leadership.
Would make Brexit easier.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/uk-eu-flights-would-cease-immediately-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
"...As if to prove he really was as stupid as he sounded, Singham went on to suggest that post-Brexit, the UK might do some individual trade deals with separate EU countries..."
Not really illustrating the sort of background research one would hope from the "country's leading trade lawyer."
Essentially I think we are left with the C-list politicians until this majestically mis-managed process is over at which point all those who think they want to be in charge will suddenly jump and shout 'I can fix it'. Rather than trying to stand up when it matters and risk being the wrong side of an argument nobody understands and nobody wants to lose.
Essentially both sides are cowardly protecting their own political careers rather than trying to form a coherent solution that will work for both this country and the EU. In my view post referendum the negotiations should have been handled by a non-partisan team to at least try and form a position that would be more representative of the needs of the country as a whole.
A second referendum would have better informed voters from both sides and whatever the result, it can't be accused of being undemocratic. People may say, you can't keep asking people until they give you the response you want, but I say that you should if their response is likely to have changed. And if that is not the case, why would Brexiters not want it to put the dissenters to bed and have another vote? It can only be because they respect democracy, when it gives them what they want.