Labour Remainers often get accused of betraying their white working class voter base, but only 37% of Labour voters voted Leave whereas 42% of Tory voters voted to Remain, yet Tory Brexiters are never referred to as betraying their voter base (and the analysis of Remain voter make up is that the white split was almost 50/50, and Remainers were made up more of private renters, mortgage holders, small business owners, professionals and managers). Those with the most to lose from Brexit voted Remain whilst those who will virtually see no impact on their personal fortune voted to Leave. Virtually no one will benefit from Brexit, save the handful of barons who have been betting against Britain and hope to make a windfall from the asset stripping that will occur following our eventual exit. The Rolands of the political sphere.
The people who stand to 'benefit' from Brexit, were it to go ahead, are those 17.4 million people who used their right as citizens in a country they live and pay taxes in, to decide the future political direction of the country.
That is a 'benefit' that many millions of people in China and elsewhere can only dream about. Those with the most to lose are the 17.4 million people who, were Brexit not to go ahead, would discover that their vote was worthless, and they may as well have stayed at home on referendum day like those who decided they could not be bothered to vote either way.
We then would all lose because our democracy would be shown to be not worth the ballot paper it was written on. It would increase the alienation from politics that many people already feel and would have long term consequences far worse than whatever short term economic difficulties occur.
Dear @Southbank . In 1992, I voted for Neil Kinnock's Labour. I was convinced that this time enough of my fellow countrymen had had enough of the Tories too. Indeed, in a severe case of premature ejaculation I uncorked a bottle of shampoo while watching the early results from Sunderland North etc. (no exit polls then to speak of). Imagine how i felt next day when i woke up with a hangover to find that John Major was still my effing Prime Minister. Worse was to come. Under that total idiot Norman Lamont, I saw my mortgage rate shoot up 5 % in one day, until the pound crashed out of the ERM. Then they went on to privatise the railways. But I did not bleat about my vote being "wasted". I just accepted that not everyone saw it as I did. Yet. In 1997 they were all finally turfed out, because enough of my fellow citizens had finally had enough. Things change. People's opinions evolve, as they discover more. We are not China, and will not be seeking to change the constitution so that Theresa May can go on and on. There will be another general election. As people's understanding of Brexit also evolves, and if the opinion polls continue to chart a shift in opinion, it would be undemocratic not to ask the electorate if they still want to proceed with Brexit now that the full implications of doing so are clear.
Just to ask you directly, if the result of the first referendum is not carried out, why should anybody believe the result of a second referendum would or should be honoured?
The 'full implications' are not clear by the way. The full implications of having the Leave process carried out by people who do not believe in it is what is being revealed.
We might as well say that another referendum should be between the result of May's dreadful negotiation process and leaving properly. But I know that is not what you are proposing.
Of the known voting choice of MPs (547) in the referendum over 73% voted to Remain. What else did you expect?
It should also be pointed out that out of all the politicians, pundits and barons who promoted Brexit, not a single one has either stepped forward to claim responsibility for delivering Brexit, or had any idea of how to do it in the first place.
If any Brexiters truly believe the Brexit process would be any better or different if any of the frauds, liars, or morons who promoted the Leave campaign were in charge then they ought to be informed that Brexit was always going to be a total disaster, regardless of who is in charge.
As I said before, those who wanted Brexit in the first place are the Rolands of the political world.
Business leaders back Remain because it makes Britain a better and more prosperous marketplace.
Maybe actually quote something people might give a shit about but don't prattle on endlessly about elites because you don't seem to have any real reason why you are so vexed that so many intelligent, progressive and successful people voted Remain because they were voting with Britain's best interests in mind.
Yes they are entitled to do that. But you cannot then claim that Leave was backed by the establishment.
Interesting thread this and to my mind confirms my long held opinion that referendums are the worst kind of democracy and have always believed that we elect a government to "govern" and we should do that after reading the party manifestos and deciding which party suits my agenda best. Then let them get on with it!
From a distance you could see the oncoming problems, and that being a close run vote (which it was) meaning millions of whatever persuasion would be pissed off, and here we are on this thread displaying that dissatisfaction.
As a remainer I see no point in having another referendum why? because if we voted to go back it is likely that we would have to re-enter the EU under terms that are worse than when we left, for example one of the criteria to join the EU is the adoption of the Euro something we would never countenance I believe.
I don't believe that the 16.1 million who voted to remain are all the so called elite, just mainly ordinary people who were fearful of the outcome of leaving the EU and the effect it will have on our economy and society in general. It is like saying those who voted to leave are all neo-fascist racists that is just not so.
As for the current Labour parties new stance I cannot see it makes any sense at all, lacking both clarity and reference to other deals which are neither what we have now or in the case of Switzerland mind bogglingly complicated. When questioned Jeremy Corbyn could not outline what Plan B is if (and it is highly likely) the EU does not allow continued membership of the customs union or something similar but kept saying "we will continue to negotiate" really! I am no lover of this Tory government or Theresa May but this tactic is to only force a general election and nothing to do with Brexit. There is a great deal of hypocrisy on both sides and this is just another example.
So I guess I need to put the tin hat on but as a remainer I see no option but to see this process through, although how this is going to get done is beyond my intellect, however the idea that we will cherry pick all the bits we like and lose the rest is frankly naïve, best that can be done is an exclusive trade deal that protects our mutual interests because for sure the EU does want to do business with us but what that looks like I have no idea.
Whilst one can but agree that a referendum was not the way to answer the question, we have to recognise that this has thrown up the biggest democratic opportunity in our lifetimes. For we get to discuss and possibly influence how we leave the EU. Millions can choose to participate or not. And the polls consistently show only a minority support for the Hard Brexit leave everything view. That contribution might be one liners on here (or other social media) or links to articles. Or the participation in surveys, meetings and actual campaigning. This is what makes a democracy thrive as opposed to people shutting down debate.
Yesterday's intervention in favour of a common sense retention of membership of the Customs Union resonates with approximately 2/3 of the electorate, i.e. a "grand coalition" of those who wish to remain (and thus fight the referendum) as together with pragmatic leave and remain voters who see absolutely no case to break up tariff free access for goods.
What Brexit and Trump have done is remind the rich, the powerful and the thinktanks / academics that everybody has a vote. Everybody counts. Forget the EU for a minute and remember the regions and the left behind as @Southbank reminds us. Then take five to realise what that means in an age where there are billions of smartphones on the planet and everybody has access to video, chatrooms, short courses, lectures and of course 24/7 news - fake and real. Some countries have democracies where we vote. Others don't.
As a result of "that referendum", the UK is engaged in a once in a lifetime opportunity to choose the proximity of orbit to the EU (Canada or Norway) as well as attitudes to deregulation - single market or race to the bottom. Yes, the real choice is now and we perhaps should embrace it? Why not celebrate that we have a new deadline with real choices and that is why we have the real debate as opposed to the cartoon like campaign of 2016.
It opens up the country to examine where it wants to go with the full knowledge of a deadline in March 2019 and a possible election before or after to determine the long term settlement. Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union and nobody voted to leave the Single Market nor Euratom etc. The EU27 will clearly consider an application to stay in the CU and the whole of the SM... but not cherry pick the parts which suit the UK or a particular approach.
These choices are like lighthouses and they will not change over the next 13 months. Ignore them and the country will hit the rocks. As it appears that the Leave/Remain vote will not shift from a 46% each tie, perhaps we should examine the popular support for remaining in the Customs Union. It is overwhelming with the electorate and in Parliament - with or without six Sinn Fein MPs!
The real debate will be membership of the single market which includes adherence to the four freedoms. That one might come later in the year? That one might go to another referendum or an election? We will have the same shrill voices from the extremes while manifestos evolve. The point is that we will all have a chance to influence the debate about what the will of the people means. As @PragueAddick states higher up, we are not bound by elections of the last century nor before the crash. The 2016 referendum will simply blend into the political history of our country. We are leaving the EU but how are we leaving?
What is interesting is that those most wedded to a hard Brexit are those who come out with the sound bites at every stage telling us how easy it will be or how we should walk away if we don't secure what we want. "No deal is better than a bad deal". Actually it is very clear what "No deal" means and who is supporting that line. And this in turn is a force which is helping to create a "Grand Coalition" which takes an alternative pragmatic approach. One which benefits and is attractive to the majority of ordinary working people, their families as well as those who once were working people, i.e. the retired.
Labour Remainers often get accused of betraying their white working class voter base, but only 37% of Labour voters voted Leave whereas 42% of Tory voters voted to Remain, yet Tory Brexiters are never referred to as betraying their voter base (and the analysis of Remain voter make up is that the white split was almost 50/50, and Remainers were made up more of private renters, mortgage holders, small business owners, professionals and managers). Those with the most to lose from Brexit voted Remain whilst those who will virtually see no impact on their personal fortune voted to Leave. Virtually no one will benefit from Brexit, save the handful of barons who have been betting against Britain and hope to make a windfall from the asset stripping that will occur following our eventual exit. The Rolands of the political sphere.
The people who stand to 'benefit' from Brexit, were it to go ahead, are those 17.4 million people who used their right as citizens in a country they live and pay taxes in, to decide the future political direction of the country.
That is a 'benefit' that many millions of people in China and elsewhere can only dream about. Those with the most to lose are the 17.4 million people who, were Brexit not to go ahead, would discover that their vote was worthless, and they may as well have stayed at home on referendum day like those who decided they could not be bothered to vote either way.
We then would all lose because our democracy would be shown to be not worth the ballot paper it was written on. It would increase the alienation from politics that many people already feel and would have long term consequences far worse than whatever short term economic difficulties occur.
Dear @Southbank . In 1992, I voted for Neil Kinnock's Labour. I was convinced that this time enough of my fellow countrymen had had enough of the Tories too. Indeed, in a severe case of premature ejaculation I uncorked a bottle of shampoo while watching the early results from Sunderland North etc. (no exit polls then to speak of). Imagine how i felt next day when i woke up with a hangover to find that John Major was still my effing Prime Minister. Worse was to come. Under that total idiot Norman Lamont, I saw my mortgage rate shoot up 5 % in one day, until the pound crashed out of the ERM. Then they went on to privatise the railways. But I did not bleat about my vote being "wasted". I just accepted that not everyone saw it as I did. Yet. In 1997 they were all finally turfed out, because enough of my fellow citizens had finally had enough. Things change. People's opinions evolve, as they discover more. We are not China, and will not be seeking to change the constitution so that Theresa May can go on and on. There will be another general election. As people's understanding of Brexit also evolves, and if the opinion polls continue to chart a shift in opinion, it would be undemocratic not to ask the electorate if they still want to proceed with Brexit now that the full implications of doing so are clear.
Just to ask you directly, if the result of the first referendum is not carried out, why should anybody believe the result of a second referendum would or should be honoured?
The 'full implications' are not clear by the way. The full implications of having the Leave process carried out by people who do not believe in it is what is being revealed.
We might as well say that another referendum should be between the result of May's dreadful negotiation process and leaving properly. But I know that is not what you are proposing.
Of the known voting choice of MPs (547) in the referendum over 73% voted to Remain. What else did you expect?
It should also be pointed out that out of all the politicians, pundits and barons who promoted Brexit, not a single one has either stepped forward to claim responsibility for delivering Brexit, or had any idea of how to do it in the first place.
If any Brexiters truly believe the Brexit process would be any better or different if any of the frauds, liars, or morons who promoted the Leave campaign were in charge then they ought to be informed that Brexit was always going to be a total disaster, regardless of who is in charge.
As I said before, those who wanted Brexit in the first place are the Rolands of the political world.
And that is why May placed Davis, Gove, Fox and Johnson in the cabinet. They have had ample opportunity and civil service resources to publish a strategy and an approach. And yet all we get is vacuous nonsense - or the promise of a bag of crisps instead of a three course meal.
Labour Remainers often get accused of betraying their white working class voter base, but only 37% of Labour voters voted Leave whereas 42% of Tory voters voted to Remain, yet Tory Brexiters are never referred to as betraying their voter base (and the analysis of Remain voter make up is that the white split was almost 50/50, and Remainers were made up more of private renters, mortgage holders, small business owners, professionals and managers). Those with the most to lose from Brexit voted Remain whilst those who will virtually see no impact on their personal fortune voted to Leave. Virtually no one will benefit from Brexit, save the handful of barons who have been betting against Britain and hope to make a windfall from the asset stripping that will occur following our eventual exit. The Rolands of the political sphere.
Is this the group Southbank refers to as 'the elite'?
A few months ago I completely and comprehensively destroyed Southbank's nonsense that the elite voted for Remain using the analysis from Ashcroft. You can look at every demographic that voted to Remain and none of them would fit any reasonable definition of 'elite'. It didn't stop him repeating his lie here on a daily basis though.
No you did not. You wilfully misrepresented what I said. It is called a straw man argument.
What I have said and is factually indisputable ( but do please try ) is that the majority of big business, politicians, the rich, both in the UK and across the world ( no need to call them an elite, they just are that whatever you want to call them) campaigned for Remain, while only a minority of those people campaigned to Leave.
You tried to pretend that I said that all those who voted Remain were part of an elite.
If you cannot see the difference between those two things then I am sure other people can.
You're forgetting the unions, academia, medical professionals, regulators, law enforcement and so on from your definition of elite Remain campaigners. Again.
I understand that you may find it difficult to reconcile your conspiracy theory with the reality that a huge cross section of informed, yet disparate, groups advised against your own view but you could at least acknowledge this happened.
Yes I admitted to mention that a majority of academics, union leaders, civil servants etc etc also backed Remain. Thanks for reminding me.
The point is that a majority of people voted leave DESPITE the fact that rich, powerful and influential people advised them against it. That is what was wonderful about the result. It showed that the people are capable of making up their own minds despite people in and with power telling them not to.
17million voted to Leave despite being advised against it by rich powerful and influential people.
But 17million people voted to Leave because they were advised to by an even richer, even more powerful and even more influential group of people.
Because let's be honest there was not a single working class person publicly promoting or campaigning for our exit to leave the EU. Everyone involved in the Leave project came from an extremely privileged background.
I have challenged you before to add up the wealth of those who backed Leave and see if you can make it come to the wealth of just one person who backed Remain -George Soros at 25b, let alone the other billionaires who backed Remain. Let alone the politicians from Obama downwards who backed Remain etc etc. Of all the conspiracy theories on this thread, your idea that Leave was the will of the global establishment is the most bizarre.
I think Putin trumps Soros
Now THAT, @Chippycafc , is a wicket-taking delivery. Middle stump.
Obama trumps Putin
Game set and match
Clearly you are not aware of Putin's real personal wealth (still less, how he got it).
Still nothing from the "trade-led Brexiteers" on Sir Malcolm Donnelly's speech. Since I am sure it churns their stomachs to have to read a speech from a "Whitehall Mandarin" , Nick Cohen has handily pulled out 8 killer points from it in this Twitter thread. Well, chaps?
Still nothing from the "trade-led Brexiteers" on Sir Malcolm Donnelly's speech. Since I am sure it churns their stomachs to have to read a speech from a "Whitehall Mandarin" , Nick Cohen has handily pulled out 8 killer points from it in this Twitter thread. Well, chaps?
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
The question is does/will the US market import our services. I'm guessing the context of the point is that the EU is the only functional market in the world where we can actually sell our services, not that it's the only market in the world.
I imagine the US imports very few services external to it's own market, and that the EU is probably similar in that. That being the case, putting ourselves outside of that market is economically suicidal.
Relax. Brexit voters knew what they were voting for. There are solutions to all the problems, but brexit voters are keeping them secret, excerpt Chippy who let the cat out of the bag when he told us that the Republic of Ireland would have a rope put round it and would be towed out to the middle of the Atlantic.
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
Quite, he US has a very functional market for its 50 states, are you suggesting the U.K. become the 51st because that's the only way I can see us getting the access we would need Post-Brexit.
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
Quite, he US has a very functional market for its 50 states, are you suggesting the U.K. become the 51st because that's the only way I can see us getting the access we would need Post-Brexit.
Very true. The USA is actually very closed off to services from other countries due to the red tape and regulations. Not a single company I worked for had US based clients for this very reason. I imagine it is a lucrative market but non-US companies don't have access to it.
Meanwhile as a member of MiFID we can market our world-beating financial services to the world's most lucrative market. Once we leave the EU it is likely the profits will diminish if not cease completely depending on how much access the EU allows our services to have.
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
Quite, he US has a very functional market for its 50 states, are you suggesting the U.K. become the 51st because that's the only way I can see us getting the access we would need Post-Brexit.
Very true. The USA is actually very closed off to services from other countries due to the red tape and regulations. Not a single company I worked for had US based clients for this very reason. I imagine it is a lucrative market but non-US companies don't have access to it.
Meanwhile as a member of MiFID we can market our world-beating financial services to the world's most lucrative market. Once we leave the EU it is likely the profits will diminish if not cease completely depending on how much access the EU allows our services to have.
Given the ambitions the French have for Paris and the Germans for Frankfurt I see absolutely no chance of us getting a decent deal on financial services, they are probably already praying for hard Brexit so they can figure out how they carve the City up between them - don't blame them either.
That's quite a shock to me because the USA is a very functional market of 50 individual states, many with different taxes and laws and regs and we are a service economy as well. It's not like the world never had a functional market until the EU showed up.
Quite, he US has a very functional market for its 50 states, are you suggesting the U.K. become the 51st because that's the only way I can see us getting the access we would need Post-Brexit.
Very true. The USA is actually very closed off to services from other countries due to the red tape and regulations. Not a single company I worked for had US based clients for this very reason. I imagine it is a lucrative market but non-US companies don't have access to it.
Meanwhile as a member of MiFID we can market our world-beating financial services to the world's most lucrative market. Once we leave the EU it is likely the profits will diminish if not cease completely depending on how much access the EU allows our services to have.
Given the ambitions the French have for Paris and the Germans for Frankfurt I see absolutely no chance of us getting a decent deal on financial services, they are probably already praying for hard Brexit so they can figure out how they carve the City up between them - don't blame them either.
Exactly. When Brexiters whinge that Brexit is failing because the EU is refusing to give into our demands, it hasn't occurred to them that the EU exists to represent its members interests and not to listen to the infantile bleatings of a group of people who don't understand the basics of international business and markets.
The only way Brexit can even be remotely worth doing is if we get "as good as" access to the EU market as we do now. And that simply isn't going to happen. The EU has very little incentive to do so.
When Brexit does happen, I imagine goods and services will continue to cross the UK-EU border, but we will be paying through the nose for it and we will have no say if the rules change.
Not at all mate. The Irish border issue is obviously something that troubles you and I wish I could answer how it will be settled. Tbh it troubles me too
Not at all mate. The Irish border issue is obviously something that troubles you and I wish I could answer how it will be settled. Tbh it troubles me too
The reason it troubles me is because it symbolises division which is something that is a running sore through the whole Brexit debate. My mother was an Irish immigrant and as a result I have an Irish passport, and one of my brothers lives in Ballycasey County Clare, and I have other relatives there. I also lived as a young man through the terrorist atrocities that overshadowed our lives then, and when I first met Mrs Plum she lived near Liverpool Street and one of our dare I say 'romantic' phone conversations was shattered by a massive IRA bomb going off in the city. As well as that the border troubles me because I don't see Brexit as opening up to the world so much as shutting down interaction with our neighbours and dare I say friends.
Not at all mate. The Irish border issue is obviously something that troubles you and I wish I could answer how it will be settled. Tbh it troubles me too
The reason it troubles me is because it symbolises division which is something that is a running sore through the whole Brexit debate. My mother was an Irish immigrant and as a result I have an Irish passport, and one of my brothers lives in Ballycasey County Clare, and I have other relatives there. I also lived as a young man through the terrorist atrocities that overshadowed our lives then, and when I first met Mrs Plum she lived near Liverpool Street and one of our dare I say 'romantic' phone conversations was shattered by a massive IRA bomb going off in the city. As well as that the border troubles me because I don't see Brexit as opening up to the world so much as shutting down interaction with our neighbours and dare I say friends.
Fair enough. My godparents were also Irish immigrants and they were my parents closest friends. I understand fully where you are coming from and I have no argument with you there. I voted for Brexit and I would do the same again tomorrow but I have my doubts as to how it will pan out due to the incompetence of the people doing our negotiations. Anyway it's always nice talking to you as opposed to a couple of posters on here as all they do is insult people who voted Brexit.
Labour Remainers often get accused of betraying their white working class voter base, but only 37% of Labour voters voted Leave whereas 42% of Tory voters voted to Remain, yet Tory Brexiters are never referred to as betraying their voter base (and the analysis of Remain voter make up is that the white split was almost 50/50, and Remainers were made up more of private renters, mortgage holders, small business owners, professionals and managers). Those with the most to lose from Brexit voted Remain whilst those who will virtually see no impact on their personal fortune voted to Leave. Virtually no one will benefit from Brexit, save the handful of barons who have been betting against Britain and hope to make a windfall from the asset stripping that will occur following our eventual exit. The Rolands of the political sphere.
Is this the group Southbank refers to as 'the elite'?
A few months ago I completely and comprehensively destroyed Southbank's nonsense that the elite voted for Remain using the analysis from Ashcroft. You can look at every demographic that voted to Remain and none of them would fit any reasonable definition of 'elite'. It didn't stop him repeating his lie here on a daily basis though.
No you did not. You wilfully misrepresented what I said. It is called a straw man argument.
What I have said and is factually indisputable ( but do please try ) is that the majority of big business, politicians, the rich, both in the UK and across the world ( no need to call them an elite, they just are that whatever you want to call them) campaigned for Remain, while only a minority of those people campaigned to Leave.
You tried to pretend that I said that all those who voted Remain were part of an elite.
If you cannot see the difference between those two things then I am sure other people can.
You're forgetting the unions, academia, medical professionals, regulators, law enforcement and so on from your definition of elite Remain campaigners. Again.
I understand that you may find it difficult to reconcile your conspiracy theory with the reality that a huge cross section of informed, yet disparate, groups advised against your own view but you could at least acknowledge this happened.
Yes I admitted to mention that a majority of academics, union leaders, civil servants etc etc also backed Remain. Thanks for reminding me.
The point is that a majority of people voted leave DESPITE the fact that rich, powerful and influential people advised them against it. That is what was wonderful about the result. It showed that the people are capable of making up their own minds despite people in and with power telling them not to.
So you're suggesting we should celebrate ignorance and pigheadedness? Brilliant.
You've avoided the question. Again. Why would the TUC and the CBI be on the same side of this equation???
Not at all mate. The Irish border issue is obviously something that troubles you and I wish I could answer how it will be settled. Tbh it troubles me too
The reason it troubles me is because it symbolises division which is something that is a running sore through the whole Brexit debate. My mother was an Irish immigrant and as a result I have an Irish passport, and one of my brothers lives in Ballycasey County Clare, and I have other relatives there. I also lived as a young man through the terrorist atrocities that overshadowed our lives then, and when I first met Mrs Plum she lived near Liverpool Street and one of our dare I say 'romantic' phone conversations was shattered by a massive IRA bomb going off in the city. As well as that the border troubles me because I don't see Brexit as opening up to the world so much as shutting down interaction with our neighbours and dare I say friends.
I, for one, appreciate the interest (because I believe that Brexit, as currently being "negotiated", will be a disaster for both sides of the border - at the very least, it will offer wonderful money making opportunities for terrorists, so much so that Brexit may end up supporting the violent dissidents in much the same way as the dissidents supported Brexit).
And it will have an impact on the price of many purchases that we make on a daily basis, like Cheddar cheese and other essentials.
Like Viagra, manufactured in Ireland...
Not that it matters, but I wonder if properties downwind of the Pfizer plant in Ringaskiddy might be more popular with men of a certain age....
And while we're talking about the duplicity of the Tory ministers responsible for delivering Brexit, The Disgraced Former Defence Secretary Liam Fox has changed his tune too...
Comments
Yesterday's intervention in favour of a common sense retention of membership of the Customs Union resonates with approximately 2/3 of the electorate, i.e. a "grand coalition" of those who wish to remain (and thus fight the referendum) as together with pragmatic leave and remain voters who see absolutely no case to break up tariff free access for goods.
What Brexit and Trump have done is remind the rich, the powerful and the thinktanks / academics that everybody has a vote. Everybody counts. Forget the EU for a minute and remember the regions and the left behind as @Southbank reminds us. Then take five to realise what that means in an age where there are billions of smartphones on the planet and everybody has access to video, chatrooms, short courses, lectures and of course 24/7 news - fake and real. Some countries have democracies where we vote. Others don't.
As a result of "that referendum", the UK is engaged in a once in a lifetime opportunity to choose the proximity of orbit to the EU (Canada or Norway) as well as attitudes to deregulation - single market or race to the bottom. Yes, the real choice is now and we perhaps should embrace it? Why not celebrate that we have a new deadline with real choices and that is why we have the real debate as opposed to the cartoon like campaign of 2016.
It opens up the country to examine where it wants to go with the full knowledge of a deadline in March 2019 and a possible election before or after to determine the long term settlement. Nobody voted to leave the Customs Union and nobody voted to leave the Single Market nor Euratom etc. The EU27 will clearly consider an application to stay in the CU and the whole of the SM... but not cherry pick the parts which suit the UK or a particular approach.
These choices are like lighthouses and they will not change over the next 13 months. Ignore them and the country will hit the rocks. As it appears that the Leave/Remain vote will not shift from a 46% each tie, perhaps we should examine the popular support for remaining in the Customs Union. It is overwhelming with the electorate and in Parliament - with or without six Sinn Fein MPs!
The real debate will be membership of the single market which includes adherence to the four freedoms. That one might come later in the year? That one might go to another referendum or an election? We will have the same shrill voices from the extremes while manifestos evolve. The point is that we will all have a chance to influence the debate about what the will of the people means. As @PragueAddick states higher up, we are not bound by elections of the last century nor before the crash. The 2016 referendum will simply blend into the political history of our country. We are leaving the EU but how are we leaving?
What is interesting is that those most wedded to a hard Brexit are those who come out with the sound bites at every stage telling us how easy it will be or how we should walk away if we don't secure what we want. "No deal is better than a bad deal". Actually it is very clear what "No deal" means and who is supporting that line. And this in turn is a force which is helping to create a "Grand Coalition" which takes an alternative pragmatic approach. One which benefits and is attractive to the majority of ordinary working people, their families as well as those who once were working people, i.e. the retired.
I imagine the US imports very few services external to it's own market, and that the EU is probably similar in that. That being the case, putting ourselves outside of that market is economically suicidal.
Meanwhile as a member of MiFID we can market our world-beating financial services to the world's most lucrative market. Once we leave the EU it is likely the profits will diminish if not cease completely depending on how much access the EU allows our services to have.
The only way Brexit can even be remotely worth doing is if we get "as good as" access to the EU market as we do now. And that simply isn't going to happen. The EU has very little incentive to do so.
When Brexit does happen, I imagine goods and services will continue to cross the UK-EU border, but we will be paying through the nose for it and we will have no say if the rules change.
The Irish border issue is obviously something that troubles you and I wish I could answer how it will be settled.
Tbh it troubles me too
I also lived as a young man through the terrorist atrocities that overshadowed our lives then, and when I first met Mrs Plum she lived near Liverpool Street and one of our dare I say 'romantic' phone conversations was shattered by a massive IRA bomb going off in the city.
As well as that the border troubles me because I don't see Brexit as opening up to the world so much as shutting down interaction with our neighbours and dare I say friends.
My godparents were also Irish immigrants and they were my parents closest friends.
I understand fully where you are coming from and I have no argument with you there.
I voted for Brexit and I would do the same again tomorrow but I have my doubts as to how it will pan out due to the incompetence of the people doing our negotiations.
Anyway it's always nice talking to you as opposed to a couple of posters on here as all they do is insult people who voted Brexit.
You've avoided the question. Again. Why would the TUC and the CBI be on the same side of this equation???
And it will have an impact on the price of many purchases that we make on a daily basis, like Cheddar cheese and other essentials.
Like Viagra, manufactured in Ireland...
Not that it matters, but I wonder if properties downwind of the Pfizer plant in Ringaskiddy might be more popular with men of a certain age....
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/boris-johnson-tells-pm-wrong-to-see-govt-task-as-no-irish-border-after-brexit-11270041?__twitter_impression=true
I can't believe no one's pointed out the border might be a problem before @seth plum
:-)
Edit - oops sorry @Chizz just seen it's the same story.
independent.co.uk/voices/liam-fox-speech-eu-customs-union-brexit-europe-trade-deal-a8230571.html
Bit of a theme continuing with these numpties isn't there?