Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
stonemuse got bored of being the 'reasonable' one and decided to stick one up the snowflakes!!! and you should just SEE how they responded!!
Mmm ... looking at the below definition, it is a very aposite description of a number of posters on here.
“Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a neologistic term used to characterize the young adults of the 2010s as being more prone to taking offence and less resilient than previous generations, or as being too emotionally vulnerable to cope with views that challenge their own.”
The number times you have thrown your toys out of your pram on this thread because not everyone toes the line of "let's all give Stonemuse extra slack and pretend he is making reasonable points as otherwise us Remainers will only have real nutters like Chippy to debate with", I would suggest it is a very apposite description of you!
Nutter ? will always be behind you in that queue....well in front in almost everything else.
stonemuse got bored of being the 'reasonable' one and decided to stick one up the snowflakes!!! and you should just SEE how they responded!!
Mmm ... looking at the below definition, it is a very aposite description of a number of posters on here.
“Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a neologistic term used to characterize the young adults of the 2010s as being more prone to taking offence and less resilient than previous generations, or as being too emotionally vulnerable to cope with views that challenge their own.”
The number times you have thrown your toys out of your pram on this thread because not everyone toes the line of "let's all give Stonemuse extra slack and pretend he is making reasonable points as otherwise us Remainers will only have real nutters like Chippy to debate with", I would suggest it is a very apposite description of you!
Typical snowflake response.
And just to be clear, @Chippycafc is not one of the posters to who I was referring as a nutter.
Can’t remember who I was thinking of now ..... mmmmmm.
stonemuse got bored of being the 'reasonable' one and decided to stick one up the snowflakes!!! and you should just SEE how they responded!!
Mmm ... looking at the below definition, it is a very aposite description of a number of posters on here.
“Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a neologistic term used to characterize the young adults of the 2010s as being more prone to taking offence and less resilient than previous generations, or as being too emotionally vulnerable to cope with views that challenge their own.”
The number times you have thrown your toys out of your pram on this thread because not everyone toes the line of "let's all give Stonemuse extra slack and pretend he is making reasonable points as otherwise us Remainers will only have real nutters like Chippy to debate with", I would suggest it is a very apposite description of you!
I should add that the problem with living in your little world is that you believe that anyone living outside it is a racist xenophobe.
In fact, forget the snowflake inference ... and apologies to @PragueAddick for using the term ... but you fit virtue signalling so well.
Always angry but with no real thoughts of your own. All you do is post links to the opinions of others or sling insults.
The problem with that approach is that it gives you no credence.
Well I have to say it again....Post of the year so far....If the guardian closed down he would just shrivel up.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Listening to the alt-right whinge about what kind of Brexit they're getting reminds me of those "Sweet 16" teenagers in America throwing a huge tantrum because the new luxury sports car their parents have bought them has the wrong colour steering wheel.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
Is that why all the Brexit campaigners, the official Leave campaign, and UKIP's policy was to remain in the Customs Union and Single Market?
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
I don't know. You referenced the 'white' working class as a reference to your 'reality'. Why 'white'? Perhaps your invented reality is about the multi ethnic working class.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
But therein lies the problem - you clearly know why you voted to leave and have also made it clear that hard Brexit is what you want. But nobody knows why others voted to Leave the European Union (the question). Clearly (not probably) if we are no longer members of the European Union following Brexit then the will of the people will have been satisfied as per the wording of the referendum that you so doggedly claim was democracy at work.
Yes Remainers and Leavers both lied during the referendum campaign but the whole shebang was flawed from the outset.
Remain in the European Union - clear consequence of the outcome, the status quo. Leave the European Union - consequence? f*ck knows.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
Yeah....I remember Brexit supporters never stopped whinging about "being under the aegis of the ECJ" during the Referendum!
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
I don't know. You referenced the 'white' working class as a reference to your 'reality'. Why 'white'? Perhaps your invented reality is about the multi ethnic working class.
Because it is the white working class, not the the black or Asian working class that I was talking about. Again, if you have other evidence that the white working class is not abandoning Social Democratic parties I would be pleased to see it.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
What have you heard? Media sources (that don't instantly view Corbyn as Satan) are saying that his speech will signal support for a Customs Union, which solves the Irish border question.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Best wait and see what he actually says. From the briefings it all sounds pretty pragmatic to me.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
Listening to Barry Gardiner this morning it sounds like the soft Brexit fantasy has gripped the Labour leadership.
So still brexit then
Only if you think people voted to stay under the aegis of the ECJ and have continued freedom of movement-opposition to which are the only two things that probably united the 52%.
Yeah....I remember Brexit supporters never stopped whinging about "being under the aegis of the ECJ" during the Referendum!
As I am a reasonable person i will ask a reasonable question. If Leave voters did not intend that leaving would end freedom of movement and/or control by EU institutions like the ECJ, what exactly do you think they voted for in relation to the EU?
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Perhaps you might quote your source or is it the briefings by Keir Starmer and Barry Gardiner? At first glance you appear to be taking a Liam Fox approach to the Labour announcement?!
Let us focus on the Customs Union discussion which is the issue of the day, and perhaps the whole of March. Let us not conflate with the Single Market debate.
Edit: no need! I've found your source. Tom Brake (who!!!) Is the Lib Dem Brexit spokesman. In the Guardian, his response is a divisive "cake and eat it" jibe banging on about the Single Market. Why not simply welcome the shift? Or is Party political advantage more important?
In contrast, Umunna and Lord Adonis welcome this as a step in the right direction. The Lib Dems are finished for a generation having put Cameron into power in the first place. Quite why they see the need for barbed comment today is beyond me. Surely the centre left should unite in the face of this nationalist alt-right threat?
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
Your mistake is conflating a reduced level of support for a party with the assumption that it's because their voters have all moved to some extremist anti-EU position.
I notice that the word "France" was notably lacking from your list, and as for Holland, you might want to read carefully about the make up of the myriad parties that now have representation in Parliament. In my experience it has always been a mistake to assume the Dutch are "just like us" simply because both are great trading nations and former colonialists. With Spain I am sure @CharltonMadrid will be along to provide a reasoned and informed viewpoint. As for Italy it has always been a political basket case. If I were able to rewrite the history of the EU going back to the early 60s, I would rewrite those fuckers out of it.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
I don't know. You referenced the 'white' working class as a reference to your 'reality'. Why 'white'? Perhaps your invented reality is about the multi ethnic working class.
Because it is the white working class, not the the black or Asian working class that I was talking about. Again, if you have other evidence that the white working class is not abandoning Social Democratic parties I would be pleased to see it.
I have no evidence either way. However don't expect me to take your assertions as a given, vague at best, and the ebb and flow of politics is usually that factions can gain and lose support, look at UKIP in the UK. You have as much command as to what constitutes reality as I do, but then use your version in an attempt to trump 'wishful thinking'. Kind of ironic when one could argue that a brexit vote is wishful thinking writ large, like 350 million a week for the NHS was writ large on the side of the bus..
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
Your mistake is conflating a reduced level of support for a party with the assumption that it's because their voters have all moved to some extremist anti-EU position.
I notice that the word "France" was notably lacking from your list, and as for Holland, you might want to read carefully about the make up of the myriad parties that now have representation in Parliament. In my experience it has always been a mistake to assume the Dutch are "just like us" simply because both are great trading nations and former colonialists. With Spain I am sure @CharltonMadrid will be along to provide a reasoned and informed viewpoint. As for Italy it has always been a political basket case. If I were able to rewrite the history of the EU going back to the early 60s, I would rewrite those fuckers out of it.
Well, the Socialists got hammered in France as well. I am not conflating SD collapse with being pro EU, although I think it is a factor. I was responding to O'Toole's article about the future of Europe being Social Democratic, which is a pipe dream. Like you, I have nobody to vote for at present. There are too many people like us for the current situation to carry on forever-but it could be a long while before any real change happens
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
What have you heard? Media sources (that don't instantly view Corbyn as Satan) are saying that his speech will signal support for a Customs Union, which solves the Irish border question.
What is not to like about that?
To be fair, membership of a formal customs union with the EU would not, necessarily, solve the border conundrum (the nature and scope of the customs union would be key - at least, that's what the Turkish example would indicate).
As with everything else in the negotiations, the devil will be in the detail.
I'd be very interested in the UK government and Labour's reaction to the legal text, enshrining the Phase 1 agreement (at least the parts that relate to UK-EU relations), to be produced by the EU27 this week.
I can imagine a requirement for both parties to sign the text in March, prior to any agreement on a transition period (indeed, I cannot believe, given the attempted backsliding on December's agreements, that the EU27 could begin talks on transition, without the legal text being signed).
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
Reality? Are you claiming command of the concept of reality? Are you defining what is political and social reality across Europe? Quite a claim if you are.
OK Seth, happy to bow to your superior knowledge. Which Social Democratic parties are doing well in mainland Europe? In Germany the SPD is now down to a level with the far right, in Italy they are about to be beaten, in Spain they are losing support, in Holland they lost out badly.
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
I think you might need to look at Spain again. The traditional left parties of PSOE and IU have lost support in the medium term but that has gone to another left party in Podemos. At the last election PSOE's vote actually went up slightly.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
What have you heard? Media sources (that don't instantly view Corbyn as Satan) are saying that his speech will signal support for a Customs Union, which solves the Irish border question.
What is not to like about that?
To be fair, membership of a formal customs union with the EU would not, necessarily, solve the border conundrum (the nature and scope of the customs union would be key - at least, that's what the Turkish example would indicate).
As with everything else in the negotiations, the devil will be in the detail.
I'd be very interested in the UK government and Labour's reaction to the legal text, enshrining the Phase 1 agreement (at least the parts that relate to UK-EU relations), to be produced by the EU27 this week.
I can imagine a requirement for both parties to sign the text in March, prior to any agreement on a transition period (indeed, I cannot believe, given the attempted backsliding on December's agreements, that the EU27 could begin talks on transition, without the legal text being signed).
The border issue is both customs union and free movement of people, surely? All very well having free movement of goods if people have to be checked at a hard border.
Sadly for O'Toole's analysis, progressive, pro EU Social Democracy is in decline across Europe and with no sign of recovering. An important aspect of why this has happened is that they have aligned themselves so closely to the EU project-which is unpopular in many sections of the historically Social Democrat white working class across Europe. But let us not let reality get in the way of wishful thinking.
The social democratic construct has always been an alliance between middle classes and white working class. There might be theoretical differences between democratic socialist and social democrat but the pragmatic articulation via a manifesto and actual deeds tends to resolve.
The Alt-right have snaffled up to 15% in the polls across Europe and that has been taken directly from progressive democrats - and the reasons are well understood. Globalisation, stagnation of ordinary wages, and neoliberal approach to deregulation and privatisation. The white working class have had no benefits from the boost in GDP since no attention has gone on productivity. Outsourcing is always quicker and cheaper.
Throughout this thread you and I have recognised the source of the anger and energy supporting a leave vote. The last generation of social democrats such as Clegg and Blair are part of the cause so they really should take a back seat.
And as the centre has been hollowed out in UK politics (as it has in N.Ireland) we are dealing in high energy, high risk scenarios where the winner takes all. So yes the PD vote in Italy and the SPD in Germany is down but there is a populist left in both Spain and France.
More importantly western European centre left parties are in decline but Labour in the UK is polling above 40% for nine months now. And if the Tories screw up Brexit, Labour will win the next election. Given all the angles, how can the Tories not screw it up?!
One amazing thing about the UK is that the Tories, split top to bottom , are ahead of Labour in a lot of polls despite their incompetence. It seems highly unlikely that Corbyn can carry a majority in a straight fight with the Tories, given his own party is as split as the Tories. Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
Just for once I agree with you.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
What have you heard? Media sources (that don't instantly view Corbyn as Satan) are saying that his speech will signal support for a Customs Union, which solves the Irish border question.
What is not to like about that?
To be fair, membership of a formal customs union with the EU would not, necessarily, solve the border conundrum (the nature and scope of the customs union would be key - at least, that's what the Turkish example would indicate).
As with everything else in the negotiations, the devil will be in the detail.
I'd be very interested in the UK government and Labour's reaction to the legal text, enshrining the Phase 1 agreement (at least the parts that relate to UK-EU relations), to be produced by the EU27 this week.
I can imagine a requirement for both parties to sign the text in March, prior to any agreement on a transition period (indeed, I cannot believe, given the attempted backsliding on December's agreements, that the EU27 could begin talks on transition, without the legal text being signed).
I only like your attention to detail when it supports what I say!
I'm not 100% clear on what Labour are proposing. Do they want to stay in the "the" Customs Union or form a new Customs Union on new terms? If it is the later isn't that pretty similar to what the Conservative are propsing but substituting the words "deep and special economic partnership" for "a new Customs Union"?
Comments
Their should be a realignment, probably along pro or anti-EU lines-but our system legislates against this kind of thing.
From what I have heard of Corbyn's big statement today it sounds absolutely pathetic. Cake and eat it shit. Repeating Johnson's discredited £350m claim. Showing he doesn't understand what a customs union actually is. How are people like me expected to gladly vote for him? Chuka Umunna, no problem, bring him on.
Mind you giving up cheap footwear, dodgy US chicken and milk or eating cake. Bit of a dilemma
But I am sure you can let me know which ones are doing well.
Yes Remainers and Leavers both lied during the referendum campaign but the whole shebang was flawed from the outset.
Remain in the European Union - clear consequence of the outcome, the status quo.
Leave the European Union - consequence? f*ck knows.
What is not to like about that?
Perhaps you might quote your source or is it the briefings by Keir Starmer and Barry Gardiner? At first glance you appear to be taking a Liam Fox approach to the Labour announcement?!
Let us focus on the Customs Union discussion which is the issue of the day, and perhaps the whole of March. Let us not conflate with the Single Market debate.
Edit: no need! I've found your source. Tom Brake (who!!!) Is the Lib Dem Brexit spokesman. In the Guardian, his response is a divisive "cake and eat it" jibe banging on about the Single Market. Why not simply welcome the shift? Or is Party political advantage more important?
In contrast, Umunna and Lord Adonis welcome this as a step in the right direction. The Lib Dems are finished for a generation having put Cameron into power in the first place. Quite why they see the need for barbed comment today is beyond me. Surely the centre left should unite in the face of this nationalist alt-right threat?
I notice that the word "France" was notably lacking from your list, and as for Holland, you might want to read carefully about the make up of the myriad parties that now have representation in Parliament. In my experience it has always been a mistake to assume the Dutch are "just like us" simply because both are great trading nations and former colonialists. With Spain I am sure @CharltonMadrid will be along to provide a reasoned and informed viewpoint. As for Italy it has always been a political basket case. If I were able to rewrite the history of the EU going back to the early 60s, I would rewrite those fuckers out of it.
You have as much command as to what constitutes reality as I do, but then use your version in an attempt to trump 'wishful thinking'. Kind of ironic when one could argue that a brexit vote is wishful thinking writ large, like 350 million a week for the NHS was writ large on the side of the bus..
I am not conflating SD collapse with being pro EU, although I think it is a factor. I was responding to O'Toole's article about the future of Europe being Social Democratic, which is a pipe dream.
Like you, I have nobody to vote for at present. There are too many people like us for the current situation to carry on forever-but it could be a long while before any real change happens
As with everything else in the negotiations, the devil will be in the detail.
I'd be very interested in the UK government and Labour's reaction to the legal text, enshrining the Phase 1 agreement (at least the parts that relate to UK-EU relations), to be produced by the EU27 this week.
I can imagine a requirement for both parties to sign the text in March, prior to any agreement on a transition period (indeed, I cannot believe, given the attempted backsliding on December's agreements, that the EU27 could begin talks on transition, without the legal text being signed).
I stand corrected.