Frothing at the mouth because a few thousand away fans managed to get into home areas is quite valid I think. Even though it went off fairly quietly with a few scuffles I doubt that folks with their kids found it any less scary.
OK I take that point, but that wasn't what former Coveredender @Covered End ( ) was frothing about. The question I am still not seeing answered in the media is how many of them got in without tickets, and how the hell that happened, if it did. If so, I would have expected a lot more than "five public order arrests". If they nearly all purchased tickets, then its Arsenal who have some questions to answer.
I look forward to your balanced view the next time we hit the headlines if only 5 arrests are made
Somehow I think your approach will be very different.
Are you a fan of balanced views?
Are you suggesting otherwise?
Should I be?
Why do you ask?
Interested to know if you are a fan of balanced views, you don't have to tell me.
Yes, yes I am. I now look forward to whatever it is you've been dying to dig out or the actual point you've been wanting to make.
Fill your boots.
Good to hear it. I will look forward to seeing balanced comments from you in the future then.
We got there in the end, no need to fill my boots.
One mans balanced is another mans skewed.
We'd have got there even sooner if you hadn't fannied about in saying what you really wanted to say.
So not balanced then?
I would have thought you would have enjoyed a pithy conversation, so why rush.
Again, you 'thought' wrong. Becoming somewhat of a habit.
So I can look forward to both balanced remarks and verbose comments from you in the future then?
Did my answer only leave you with the option suggested in your latest retort?
If not then it seems a bit odd that you'd jump to a singular conclusion.
Frothing at the mouth because a few thousand away fans managed to get into home areas is quite valid I think. Even though it went off fairly quietly with a few scuffles I doubt that folks with their kids found it any less scary.
OK I take that point, but that wasn't what former Coveredender @Covered End ( ) was frothing about. The question I am still not seeing answered in the media is how many of them got in without tickets, and how the hell that happened, if it did. If so, I would have expected a lot more than "five public order arrests". If they nearly all purchased tickets, then its Arsenal who have some questions to answer.
I look forward to your balanced view the next time we hit the headlines if only 5 arrests are made
Somehow I think your approach will be very different.
Are you a fan of balanced views?
Are you suggesting otherwise?
Should I be?
Why do you ask?
Interested to know if you are a fan of balanced views, you don't have to tell me.
Yes, yes I am. I now look forward to whatever it is you've been dying to dig out or the actual point you've been wanting to make.
Fill your boots.
Good to hear it. I will look forward to seeing balanced comments from you in the future then.
We got there in the end, no need to fill my boots.
One mans balanced is another mans skewed.
We'd have got there even sooner if you hadn't fannied about in saying what you really wanted to say.
So not balanced then?
I would have thought you would have enjoyed a pithy conversation, so why rush.
Again, you 'thought' wrong. Becoming somewhat of a habit.
So I can look forward to both balanced remarks and verbose comments from you in the future then?
Did my answer only leave you with the option suggested in your latest retort?
If not then it seems a bit odd that you'd jump to a singular conclusion.
I am afraid you are wrong there. A group of little herberts did. I saw and heard it happen. And to the best of my knowledge, they were not arrested, possibly because some others found the culprits and told them to pack it in, rather like happened last night.
As a % of the 250 or so who went, they were tiny. However 5 arrests as a percentage of 20,000 is so small my tiny brain can't calculate it. I am sure you can.
Ae you trying to become CL's answer to Mary Whitehouse?
According to a Twitter account with a limited command of the English language. Might be better to wait until the morning before rushing to judgement?
Read the thread. Read the BBC report (1st post), watch the videos, it's all there.
You need to get that knee seen to, it keeps jerking.
Am I seriously to believe that around 17,000 Cologne fans without tickets got into the Emirates for free? and what happened to the 17,000 loyal Arsenal fans they have presumably displaced?
"When the gates were finally opened, Cologne fans happily went in and crowded at least one quarter of the stadium."
I don't know how they got in and I didn't say they all got in for free, because they obviously didn't.
Frothing at the mouth because a few thousand away fans managed to get into home areas is quite valid I think. Even though it went off fairly quietly with a few scuffles I doubt that folks with their kids found it any less scary.
OK I take that point, but that wasn't what former Coveredender @Covered End ( ) was frothing about. The question I am still not seeing answered in the media is how many of them got in without tickets, and how the hell that happened, if it did. If so, I would have expected a lot more than "five public order arrests". If they nearly all purchased tickets, then its Arsenal who have some questions to answer.
I look forward to your balanced view the next time we hit the headlines if only 5 arrests are made
Somehow I think your approach will be very different.
You want a balanced view of last night from someone you wouldn't consider to be "biased" against Millwall?
No problem. . Written by the Spanner who is leading the media fight against Lewisham Council for you
"In the most fraught moments leading up to kick-off police riot teams could be seen snaking through the huge crowd at the turnstiles, and some arrests were made after a group of Cologne fans tried to storm one of the entrances. There were scuffles among the visiting fans and some nasty moments in the away end in the delay before kick-off as those with tickets in other parts of the ground tried to force their way into the main mass of Cologne fans and fought intermittently with stewards. Eventually the police arrived, hundreds of extra officers having been scrambled to deal with a situation that appeared to have caught them on the hop a little."
Frothing at the mouth because a few thousand away fans managed to get into home areas is quite valid I think. Even though it went off fairly quietly with a few scuffles I doubt that folks with their kids found it any less scary.
OK I take that point, but that wasn't what former Coveredender @Covered End ( ) was frothing about. The question I am still not seeing answered in the media is how many of them got in without tickets, and how the hell that happened, if it did. If so, I would have expected a lot more than "five public order arrests". If they nearly all purchased tickets, then its Arsenal who have some questions to answer.
I look forward to your balanced view the next time we hit the headlines if only 5 arrests are made
Somehow I think your approach will be very different.
You want a balanced view of last night from someone you wouldn't consider to be "biased" against Millwall?
No problem. . Written by the Spanner who is leading the media fight against Lewisham Council for you
The clue was in the 'we' part of my post. The next time 'we' play should have been a massive give away, mate.
I know you've given a balanced view on last night. I simply asked that you afford us the same courtesy the next time West Ham show up out of the blue and cause trouble at one of our fixtures.
In the most fraught moments leading up to kick-off police riot teams could be seen snaking through the huge crowd at the turnstiles, and some arrests were made after a group of Cologne fans tried to storm one of the entrances. There were scuffles among the visiting fans and some nasty moments in the away end in the delay before kick-off as those with tickets in other parts of the ground tried to force their way into the main mass of Cologne fans and fought intermittently with stewards. Eventually the police arrived, hundreds of extra officers having been scrambled to deal with a situation that appeared to have caught them on the hop a little.
Look, it's just a football forum and not The FT letters page, but it is kind of normal to put speechmarks around a quotation and tell people where you got it from , so that they can read the whole article, and as a result, come to a different conclusion to that which they might have just reading the above on its own.
In the most fraught moments leading up to kick-off police riot teams could be seen snaking through the huge crowd at the turnstiles, and some arrests were made after a group of Cologne fans tried to storm one of the entrances. There were scuffles among the visiting fans and some nasty moments in the away end in the delay before kick-off as those with tickets in other parts of the ground tried to force their way into the main mass of Cologne fans and fought intermittently with stewards. Eventually the police arrived, hundreds of extra officers having been scrambled to deal with a situation that appeared to have caught them on the hop a little.
Look, it's just a football forum and not The FT letters page, but it is kind of normal to put speechmarks around a quotation and tell people where you got it from , so that they can read the whole article, and as a result, come to a different conclusion to that which they might have just reading the above on its own.
I can't recollect German fans ever coming over in such numbers, and causing such problems before, I imagine everyone was caught out, both clubs and the police.
From what I've heard there was talk all over the forums of people saying they were going to the Emirates ticket or not.
Fair play to the Cologne fan in that article. But they should have also thought about the issues that would occur with thousands of away fans pouring into the home areas. It's bloody lucky it went off without major disturbances.
Fair play to the Cologne fan in that article. But they should have also thought about the issues that would occur with thousands of away fans pouring into the home areas. It's bloody lucky it went off without major disturbances.
Fair play to the Cologne fan in that article. But they should have also thought about the issues that would occur with thousands of away fans pouring into the home areas. It's bloody lucky it went off without major disturbances.
Lucky it was Arsenal.
Exactly. If it was Chelsea or millwall for instance it would have been carnage
Hard to relate to people, particularly Prague (with whom I know ive debated with before on similar issues) with the view of 'nothing to really see here'
They have turned up in huge numbers, got pissed up, caused plenty of problems for the police, surged the home gates, fought with police and stewards etc.
Now Prague, I'm sure if it had been England (or an English club side) behaving like that, you'd have (quite rightly some would say) had a field day slagging us/them off.
The only difference here was that there were no locals wanting/trying to have a pop at Cologne and the police treated them well, otherwise you'd have seen even more carnage.
I've not got a big problem with what they did yesterday, but the usual culprits who can't wait to have a pop at English fans in the same scenario, defending the behaviour, is a bit frustrating.
As a side note, I went to 1860 v Cologne a few years back in the German 2nd division on a Sunday lunchtime and Cologne brought 12k - unreal support.
Fair play to the Cologne fan in that article. But they should have also thought about the issues that would occur with thousands of away fans pouring into the home areas. It's bloody lucky it went off without major disturbances.
Lucky it was Arsenal.
Exactly. If it was Chelsea or millwall for instance it would have been carnage
I am afraid you are wrong there. A group of little herberts did. I saw and heard it happen. And to the best of my knowledge, they were not arrested, possibly because some others found the culprits and told them to pack it in, rather like happened last night.
As a % of the 250 or so who went, they were tiny. However 5 arrests as a percentage of 20,000 is so small my tiny brain can't calculate it. I am sure you can.
Ae you trying to become CL's answer to Mary Whitehouse?
Bottles and flares thrown in St Truiden? Been four times and seen nothing but respect for citizens of both countries and fans of all clubs involved there.
And the biggest contingent of Charlton fans there was closely co-ordinated with the local police and authorities, unlike the chaos caused last night by hoards of ticketless Germans.
Hard to relate to people, particularly Prague (with whom I know ive debated with before on similar issues) with the view of 'nothing to really see here'
They have turned up in huge numbers, got pissed up, caused plenty of problems for the police, surged the home gates, thought with police and stewards etc.
Now Prague, I'm sure if it had been England (or an English club side) behaving like that, you'd have (quite rightly some would say) had a field day slagging us/them off.
The only difference here was that there were no locals wanting/trying to have a pop at Cologne and the police treated them well, otherwise you'd have seen even more carnage.
I've not got a big problem with what they did yesterday, but the usual culprits who can't wait to have a pop at English fans in the same scenario, defending the behaviour, is a bit frustrating.
As a side note, I went to 1860 v Cologne a few years back in the German 2nd division on a Sunday lunchtime and Cologne brought 12k - unreal support.
Well, you know I've got a huge respect for you, travelling in support of England to some bloody difficult places.
I don't think it is fair to imply that I only slag off English fans. I've already pointed out that Arsenal have to play Red Star. They should have been banned for years for what they did in Prague a while back but of course because it was away from the stadium, UEFA washed their hands of it.
UEFA should themselves be abolished for allowing a Europa league draw which takes the Albanian team Skanderbeg to Partizan Belgrade. Seriously, if a more nationalistic Serb government was in power, that could kick off a new war. ****s, the lot of them, IMHO. It's just that none of those fans will turn up in London any time soon.
I know a bit about the German club scene, but enough to know that Cologne really don't have a bad reputation. There are German clubs with a serious problem, Hansa Rostock and the newly resurgent Dynamo Dresden are the worst, I believe. During the Czech-Germany game a couple of weeks back some German fans apparently were giving it the Nazi thing, which is beyond the pale, but from what i have read (I was thankfully on holiday) it was just a few, and they are being fingered as fans from those two clubs, and more generally from the East of Germany. I'd bet a lot of money no Cologne fans were involved, anyone who has spent time there knows its the most anti Nazi city you could find. What definitely did not happen was any German fans occupying the street side of pubs in Prague giving it the Nazi stuff, and that's for me a big difference with what often happens when England fans pitch up in somewhere like Marseille or Stuttgart.
The sad thing about the reaction of @Covered End and others (and BTW CE, kind of you to recognise my loss, but I accept that if I have an argument on CL I should expect one back, so you fire away) is that, if you read the Cologne fans viewpoints, you realise something poignant. Despite the fact that they are better than us in virtually every aspect of football, both on the field and off, they still look up to us. They still think England is the mother country of football. The Cologne fans are just made up that at last they have a team to be proud of, and playing in London at the Emirates, well it really was their Cup Final. Can't we give them a break?
Apparently a large group of Cologne fans are still in the area, and have rocked up at an Arsenal U23 v Leicester U23 game, where they are chanting "come on Leicester!"
Just for clarification, as Prague seems to think I was overreacting and acting like Mary Whitehouse.
My reaction was saying that the Cologne fans were ;-
"Throwing bottles and letting off flares & fighting amongst themselves in London.
3,000 had tickets and it looks like far more than that have got in.
Fighting stewards."
These are all facts. I had seen footage of them fighting and one guy kicking another guy in the head.
I had seen the footage with far more than 3,000 fans in the stadium.
I took the police's word that their fans had been throwing bottles and letting off flares in London, which I think is reasonable evidence.
I made no other remark until I was told my comments should not be made without knowing the facts, which was complete nonsense, because I had seen the facts.
It wasn't me making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Frothing at the mouth because a few thousand away fans managed to get into home areas is quite valid I think. Even though it went off fairly quietly with a few scuffles I doubt that folks with their kids found it any less scary.
OK I take that point, but that wasn't what former Coveredender @Covered End ( ) was frothing about. The question I am still not seeing answered in the media is how many of them got in without tickets, and how the hell that happened, if it did. If so, I would have expected a lot more than "five public order arrests". If they nearly all purchased tickets, then its Arsenal who have some questions to answer.
I look forward to your balanced view the next time we hit the headlines if only 5 arrests are made
Somehow I think your approach will be very different.
Are you a fan of balanced views?
Are you suggesting otherwise?
Should I be?
Why do you ask?
Interested to know if you are a fan of balanced views, you don't have to tell me.
Yes, yes I am. I now look forward to whatever it is you've been dying to dig out or the actual point you've been wanting to make.
Fill your boots.
Good to hear it. I will look forward to seeing balanced comments from you in the future then.
We got there in the end, no need to fill my boots.
One mans balanced is another mans skewed.
We'd have got there even sooner if you hadn't fannied about in saying what you really wanted to say.
So not balanced then?
I would have thought you would have enjoyed a pithy conversation, so why rush.
Again, you 'thought' wrong. Becoming somewhat of a habit.
So I can look forward to both balanced remarks and verbose comments from you in the future then?
Did my answer only leave you with the option suggested in your latest retort?
If not then it seems a bit odd that you'd jump to a singular conclusion.
I am surprised at some of the comments on here making light of the situation. We all know what happened the last time a large group of ticketless fans stormed into a ground.......Hillsborough.
The situation last night could have been much worse had the Arsenal fans turned up in numbers because I doubt the German fans knew there were going to be so many empty seats.
I am surprised at some of the comments on here making light of the situation. We all know what happened the last time a large group of ticketless fans stormed into a ground.......Hillsborough.
The situation last night could have been much worse had the Arsenal fans turned up in numbers because I doubt the German fans knew there were going to be so many empty seats.
If that's really the last time ticketless fans turned up, you've got to say Mike, 28 years... that's a pretty good run.
Hillsborough was a combination of factors, mostly defined by bad crowd management. And as I understand it, the Cologne fans were motivated by the knowledge that there were empty areas to get into.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/sep/15/arsenal-cologne-fans-europa-league
As a % of the 250 or so who went, they were tiny. However 5 arrests as a percentage of 20,000 is so small my tiny brain can't calculate it. I am sure you can.
Ae you trying to become CL's answer to Mary Whitehouse?
I don't know how they got in and I didn't say they all got in for free, because they obviously didn't.
No problem. . Written by the Spanner who is leading the media fight against Lewisham Council for you
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/sep/14/cologne-fans-arsenal-english-football-taste-medicine
I know you've given a balanced view on last night. I simply asked that you afford us the same courtesy the next time West Ham show up out of the blue and cause trouble at one of our fixtures.
He lifted it from the Barney Ronay article I mentioned to BBW above...
If it was Chelsea or millwall for instance it would have been carnage
They have turned up in huge numbers, got pissed up, caused plenty of problems for the police, surged the home gates, fought with police and stewards etc.
Now Prague, I'm sure if it had been England (or an English club side) behaving like that, you'd have (quite rightly some would say) had a field day slagging us/them off.
The only difference here was that there were no locals wanting/trying to have a pop at Cologne and the police treated them well, otherwise you'd have seen even more carnage.
I've not got a big problem with what they did yesterday, but the usual culprits who can't wait to have a pop at English fans in the same scenario, defending the behaviour, is a bit frustrating.
As a side note, I went to 1860 v Cologne a few years back in the German 2nd division on a Sunday lunchtime and Cologne brought 12k - unreal support.
And the biggest contingent of Charlton fans there was closely co-ordinated with the local police and authorities, unlike the chaos caused last night by hoards of ticketless Germans.
I don't think it is fair to imply that I only slag off English fans. I've already pointed out that Arsenal have to play Red Star. They should have been banned for years for what they did in Prague a while back but of course because it was away from the stadium, UEFA washed their hands of it.
UEFA should themselves be abolished for allowing a Europa league draw which takes the Albanian team Skanderbeg to Partizan Belgrade. Seriously, if a more nationalistic Serb government was in power, that could kick off a new war. ****s, the lot of them, IMHO. It's just that none of those fans will turn up in London any time soon.
I know a bit about the German club scene, but enough to know that Cologne really don't have a bad reputation. There are German clubs with a serious problem, Hansa Rostock and the newly resurgent Dynamo Dresden are the worst, I believe. During the Czech-Germany game a couple of weeks back some German fans apparently were giving it the Nazi thing, which is beyond the pale, but from what i have read (I was thankfully on holiday) it was just a few, and they are being fingered as fans from those two clubs, and more generally from the East of Germany. I'd bet a lot of money no Cologne fans were involved, anyone who has spent time there knows its the most anti Nazi city you could find. What definitely did not happen was any German fans occupying the street side of pubs in Prague giving it the Nazi stuff, and that's for me a big difference with what often happens when England fans pitch up in somewhere like Marseille or Stuttgart.
The sad thing about the reaction of @Covered End and others (and BTW CE, kind of you to recognise my loss, but I accept that if I have an argument on CL I should expect one back, so you fire away) is that, if you read the Cologne fans viewpoints, you realise something poignant. Despite the fact that they are better than us in virtually every aspect of football, both on the field and off, they still look up to us. They still think England is the mother country of football. The Cologne fans are just made up that at last they have a team to be proud of, and playing in London at the Emirates, well it really was their Cup Final. Can't we give them a break?
My reaction was saying that the Cologne fans were ;-
"Throwing bottles and letting off flares & fighting amongst themselves in London.
3,000 had tickets and it looks like far more than that have got in.
Fighting stewards."
These are all facts. I had seen footage of them fighting and one guy kicking another guy in the head.
I had seen the footage with far more than 3,000 fans in the stadium.
I took the police's word that their fans had been throwing bottles and letting off flares in London, which I think is reasonable evidence.
I made no other remark until I was told my comments should not be made without knowing the facts, which was complete nonsense, because I had seen the facts.
It wasn't me making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The situation last night could have been much worse had the Arsenal fans turned up in numbers because I doubt the German fans knew there were going to be so many empty seats.
Hillsborough was a combination of factors, mostly defined by bad crowd management. And as I understand it, the Cologne fans were motivated by the knowledge that there were empty areas to get into.
Edit - typo