@Mark_West49 I agree with your general proposition. £40m is a ridiculous price. Utterly without any normal business rationale.
Bu I disagree that you should assume they need £10m per annum to keep it afloat. That figure is based on readings of Charlton's current accounts. That means it is based on RD's towering incompetence. I am sure the Aussies think that this is where their business expertise and understanding of sport would help them do better. One relevant "empirical fact" (which I got directly from their CEO, rather than a minor newspaper article) is that AFC Wimbledon run on £4m per annum. They know that it is the 4th lowest figure in the league, and I don't suggest that Charlton can run on that. But it doesn't have to be £10m either.
and do you realise that, at £4m a pop, that's 25 would-be investors that they've been searching for over a year... at an extremely high risk with absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of ever getting a penny back?
And if we do actually get to the PL when do they get paid out, these myriad investors? You need a very solid Championship winning team + £40m to even have a chance of surviving the first PL season.
The chances of payback are, at the very best, extremely slim.
If paperwork at the EFL really is the problem then no wonder, with so many people concerned.
And if, after all that money gets poured in, and we do a Leeds and stay in the Championship for 20 years?
Let’s hope they don’t read this ;-)
Tbtw I have no knowledge of the make up of the consortium. I’d be amazed if there were 25 of them.
Seriously though James (and excuse me, I've read the 8 billion pages of this thread and so far not commented - unless it was at the very beginning) but you must have an idea of the mindset of your contact.
To me, it seems that they have no grasp of the enormity of running an English football club. Muir is proven, as a businessman and philanthropist, but in Australia. It's a small country (sic).
I cannot seriously believe that he, nor his partners, would be willing to invest so much money into Charlton on a whim and a prayer... they could probably buy Chesterfield or Newport (to name two clubs off-hand) for two quid and with the £39.999.98 saved get them into to the PL.
Why start a venture in English football with a huge weight around your neck and £40m of debt to pay back before you've even started?
I just don't buy the package I'm afraid... I'm not really sure you do anymore either. The finances just don't make sense, unless it involves the unlikely sale of the Valley/SL in the general plan - and that's a topic we've been round in circles on enough already.
No sale of Valley. The rest of what you say makes sense. But they must have started with a figure in mind for their 5 year plan. Let’s say £120m. £40m for purchase. £80m to run it for 5 years, with investment. Perhaps a couple dropped after it became clear that the price was hugely inflated. New investors and other potential buyers all agreed, hence Roland’s desperate efforts to make the club more lean. Unfortunately, due to the Aussies info blackout, I ‘ain’t got a clue’ (in the words of Stuart Pearce’s favourite band).
and do you realise that, at £4m a pop, that's 25 would-be investors that they've been searching for over a year... at an extremely high risk with absolutely no guarantee whatsoever of ever getting a penny back?
And if we do actually get to the PL when do they get paid out, these myriad investors? You need a very solid Championship winning team + £40m to even have a chance of surviving the first PL season.
The chances of payback are, at the very best, extremely slim.
If paperwork at the EFL really is the problem then no wonder, with so many people concerned.
And if, after all that money gets poured in, and we do a Leeds and stay in the Championship for 20 years?
Let’s hope they don’t read this ;-)
Tbtw I have no knowledge of the make up of the consortium. I’d be amazed if there were 25 of them.
Seriously though James (and excuse me, I've read the 8 billion pages of this thread and so far not commented - unless it was at the very beginning) but you must have an idea of the mindset of your contact.
To me, it seems that they have no grasp of the enormity of running an English football club. Muir is proven, as a businessman and philanthropist, but in Australia. It's a small country (sic).
I cannot seriously believe that he, nor his partners, would be willing to invest so much money into Charlton on a whim and a prayer... they could probably buy Chesterfield or Newport (to name two clubs off-hand) for two quid and with the £39.999.98 saved get them into to the PL.
Why start a venture in English football with a huge weight around your neck and £40m of debt to pay back before you've even started?
I just don't buy the package I'm afraid... I'm not really sure you do anymore either. The finances just don't make sense, unless it involves the unlikely sale of the Valley/SL in the general plan - and that's a topic we've been round in circles on enough already.
No sale of Valley. The rest of what you say makes sense. But they must have started with a figure in mind for their 5 year plan. Let’s say £120m. £40m for purchase. £80m to run it for 5 years, with investment. Perhaps a couple dropped after it became clear that the price was hugely inflated. New investors and other potential buyers all agreed, hence Roland’s desperate efforts to make the club more lean. Unfortunately, due to the Aussies info blackout, I ‘ain’t got a clue’ (in the words of Stuart Pearce’s favourite band).
Fair enough, thanks for the answers/info... I think we're basically on the same page as far as the numbers are concerned. It does surprise me, though, why Muir, if he were that interested (as the principal instigator in all this) couldn't just make up the shortfall in the interim; i.e. lump up 30/40/50% or whatever it is, buy the club, run it as he and the others want... get the wheels turning if you like... and then seek further backing later down the line.
It all smacks of the cricket WC in the Windies about 12 years ago... far too many committees, too many interested islands/parties (+ the ICC)... in the end it proved a disaster.
I just wonder if it's a case with the Aussies that, let's say you and I (a & b) agree on something, then it has to go to c, d, e and f etc. to sign off. Unfortunately c adds something, so does e and f, and all that takes a month to come back to us; then we decide if we agree or not, then we re-submit it to everyone and so on and so on (if you get my drift).
The consortium theory doesn't sounds too efficient IMHO.
Mr Seed sorry chief but you sure there is actually a person on the phone when you call Australia?
What the fuck was the two tough weeks but it will be worth it about ?
The club we followed for decades is fucking dying and we have to see a COO who is an utter price of shit doing hs best to follow the owners bidding to drive us into oblivion and our only hope is a guy who may be on the end of a phone leaving cryptic messages that look daily like just another load of bollox.
If they don't or someone come in soon CAFC won't exist
Mr Seed sorry chief but you sure there is actually a person on the phone when you call Australia?
What the fuck was the two tough weeks but it will be worth it about ?
The club we followed for decades is fucking dying and we have to see a COO who is an utter price of shit doing hs best to follow the owners bidding to drive us into oblivion and our only hope is a guy who may be on the end of a phone leaving cryptic messages that look daily like just another load of bollox.
If they don't or someone come in soon CAFC won't exist
Dear Goonerhater,
I share your pain.
To allow my Aussie friend a fair suck at the pineapple, I think he said 'a couple of difficult weeks ahead', which technically means two weeks, but often 'a couple' means a tad more.
I doubt he meant two months though, which is beginning to look more realistic.
I'll definitely hold him to the 'it'll hopefully all be worthwhile' bit though.
Am I right in sensing that we are on the verge of a collective mental breakdown @AFKABartram ? Certainly feels that way.
Clubs at a real crossroads. What happens over the next couple of months could define its whole future. I think CAFC can bounce back from most outcomes except apathy. I fear much more of Duchatelet and the club once a major name in English football might fade away.
Clubs at a real crossroads. What happens over the next couple of months could define its whole future. I think CAFC can bounce back from most outcomes except apathy. I fear much more of Duchatelet and the club once a major name in English football might fade away.
This is my concern also. We have lost so many supporters under this regime and I fear many are lost forever.
I take it then that nothing will happen until the Shitweasel has an epiphany resulting in his re-engaging with reality and dropping the ridiculous asking price for what is now a husk of a once prestigious club that is currently losing money hand over fist due to his disastrous stewardship.
@Mark_West49 I agree with your general proposition. £40m is a ridiculous price. Utterly without any normal business rationale.
Bu I disagree that you should assume they need £10m per annum to keep it afloat. That figure is based on readings of Charlton's current accounts. That means it is based on RD's towering incompetence. I am sure the Aussies think that this is where their business expertise and understanding of sport would help them do better. One relevant "empirical fact" (which I got directly from their CEO, rather than a minor newspaper article) is that AFC Wimbledon run on £4m per annum. They know that it is the 4th lowest figure in the league, and I don't suggest that Charlton can run on that. But it doesn't have to be £10m either.
In the assumption we get back to the Championship we would be competing against clubs with massive budgets. And making massive losses, the finances in that division are horrendous.
Clubs at a real crossroads. What happens over the next couple of months could define its whole future. I think CAFC can bounce back from most outcomes except apathy. I fear much more of Duchatelet and the club once a major name in English football might fade away.
I genuinely don't believe we'll see more than about 1,000 regular boycotters returning when this is all over. Everyone will come back for the first game but then return to doing whatever the apathy drove them away to on Saturdays. Not even sure Premier League football will get them back either.
I think only a takeover which rains cash has any hope of repairing the damage RD has done to the club.
I’m just hoping, praying, that this latest negative press is the one that tips him over the edge and gets any deal done
It can only be him being vindictive now
I’m on holiday on Saturday but I hope thousands protest before the game and then go in the ground and cheer the lads to victory and it gets the publicity it deserves
Hopefully with the press coverage recently some knights in shining armour can turn up and make a few statements in the press and state their interest in buying - put some pressure on and maybe then the likes of the EFL or MP's can get more involved in making it happen - if there are buyers out there who are being ' blocked' why not make themselves known??
Mr Seed sorry chief but you sure there is actually a person on the phone when you call Australia?
What the fuck was the two tough weeks but it will be worth it about ?
The club we followed for decades is fucking dying and we have to see a COO who is an utter price of shit doing hs best to follow the owners bidding to drive us into oblivion and our only hope is a guy who may be on the end of a phone leaving cryptic messages that look daily like just another load of bollox.
If they don't or someone come in soon CAFC won't exist
Spot on, load of bull. In some ways social media can help a club but this thread, for example, has created such stress on fans who follow the club extremely closely, that I believe no social media would have been better all along.
Mr Seed sorry chief but you sure there is actually a person on the phone when you call Australia?
What the fuck was the two tough weeks but it will be worth it about ?
The club we followed for decades is fucking dying and we have to see a COO who is an utter price of shit doing hs best to follow the owners bidding to drive us into oblivion and our only hope is a guy who may be on the end of a phone leaving cryptic messages that look daily like just another load of bollox.
If they don't or someone come in soon CAFC won't exist
Spot on, load of bull. In some ways social media can help a club but this thread, for example, has created such stress on fans who follow the club extremely closely, that I believe no social media would have been better all along.
With all due respect you don’t have to read any of it. People come here searching for clues amongst the chit chat. Some is bull, some of it isn’t. I’d suggest the main stress on fans is caused by what is happening to their club, not what is said on here.
I take it then that nothing will happen until the Shitweasel has an epiphany resulting in his re-engaging with reality and dropping the ridiculous asking price for what is now a husk of a once prestigious club that is currently losing money hand over fist due to his disastrous stewardship.
@Mark_West49 I agree with your general proposition. £40m is a ridiculous price. Utterly without any normal business rationale.
Bu I disagree that you should assume they need £10m per annum to keep it afloat. That figure is based on readings of Charlton's current accounts. That means it is based on RD's towering incompetence. I am sure the Aussies think that this is where their business expertise and understanding of sport would help them do better. One relevant "empirical fact" (which I got directly from their CEO, rather than a minor newspaper article) is that AFC Wimbledon run on £4m per annum. They know that it is the 4th lowest figure in the league, and I don't suggest that Charlton can run on that. But it doesn't have to be £10m either.
Yes @PragueAddick, you make a good point about Wimbledon (and, obviously, there are three other clubs too who spend less).
The interesting thing about Wimbledon is that they are owned by the fans. I have no idea how that set up works, but I've always assumed it would be a major obstacle if they got promoted to the Championship (would they need, for example, to look to sell more shares to fans or look to get third party, non-majority, finance?). Having said that, they are moving to a new stadium, so they've found some money from somewhere, but you obviously have a far better understanding of how the club is run than me/most of us on here.
With their budget though it's hard to see them doing anything other than, at best, trundling along in L1and hoping for a 'Deli Alli season' where a good group of players comes along. No harm in that I suppose: better than the abject misery of having Douchebag in charge forever.
A large part of reducing our £10M defecit will fall on the new owners. 1000/1500 extra STs will help with the revenue stream, but they'll have to launch a massive publicity drive to get new fans and/or old and lapsed fans back. For that, they'll have to back it up in every aspect of how the club is run (Valley Express, ticket office, Kat Tax, etcetera).
There is a tremendous opportunity for new owners to turn the club around and win back the fan base, and that should be something that, perhaps, CARD and CAST could focus more on (accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative if you like).
But getting fans back - even up to 14/15k - means more revenue, more beers and pies sold, more programmes, more Junior Reds, more advertising and sponsorship... so yes, with all of that we could, as a club, meet somewhere in the middle between my (well, Roland's) £10M and Wimbledon's £4M.
Just a reminder and suspending disbelief for a moment..
LdT has under fairly intense questioning not a straight up statement, referenced the complexity of the Aussie bid - on two separate occasions, he said it a lot in the first meeting - and that the delay is connected with the submission of papers - he insisted it wasn’t a resubmission; and that they had the money.
All this points to an issue with one or more of the investors and or opacity in the ownership structure.
Comments
Bu I disagree that you should assume they need £10m per annum to keep it afloat. That figure is based on readings of Charlton's current accounts. That means it is based on RD's towering incompetence. I am sure the Aussies think that this is where their business expertise and understanding of sport would help them do better. One relevant "empirical fact" (which I got directly from their CEO, rather than a minor newspaper article) is that AFC Wimbledon run on £4m per annum. They know that it is the 4th lowest figure in the league, and I don't suggest that Charlton can run on that. But it doesn't have to be £10m either.
The rest of what you say makes sense. But they must have started with a figure in mind for their 5 year plan. Let’s say £120m. £40m for purchase. £80m to run it for 5 years, with investment.
Perhaps a couple dropped after it became clear that the price was hugely inflated. New investors and other potential buyers all agreed, hence Roland’s desperate efforts to make the club more lean.
Unfortunately, due to the Aussies info blackout, I ‘ain’t got a clue’ (in the words of Stuart Pearce’s favourite band).
It all smacks of the cricket WC in the Windies about 12 years ago... far too many committees, too many interested islands/parties (+ the ICC)... in the end it proved a disaster.
I just wonder if it's a case with the Aussies that, let's say you and I (a & b) agree on something, then it has to go to c, d, e and f etc. to sign off. Unfortunately c adds something, so does e and f, and all that takes a month to come back to us; then we decide if we agree or not, then we re-submit it to everyone and so on and so on (if you get my drift).
The consortium theory doesn't sounds too efficient IMHO.
What the fuck was the two tough weeks but it will be worth it about ?
The club we followed for decades is fucking dying and we have to see a COO who is an utter price of shit doing hs best to follow the owners bidding to drive us into oblivion and our only hope is a guy who may be on the end of a phone leaving cryptic messages that look daily like just another load of bollox.
If they don't or someone come in soon CAFC won't exist
I share your pain.
To allow my Aussie friend a fair suck at the pineapple, I think he said 'a couple of difficult weeks ahead', which technically means two weeks, but often 'a couple' means a tad more.
I doubt he meant two months though, which is beginning to look more realistic.
I'll definitely hold him to the 'it'll hopefully all be worthwhile' bit though.
Am I right in sensing that we are on the verge of a collective mental breakdown @AFKABartram ? Certainly feels that way.
We have lost so many supporters under this regime and I fear many are lost forever.
Shan't be holding my breath, in that case.....
I think only a takeover which rains cash has any hope of repairing the damage RD has done to the club.
It can only be him being vindictive now
I’m on holiday on Saturday but I hope thousands protest before the game and then go in the ground and cheer the lads to victory and it gets the publicity it deserves
I’d suggest the main stress on fans is caused by what is happening to their club, not what is said on here.
The interesting thing about Wimbledon is that they are owned by the fans. I have no idea how that set up works, but I've always assumed it would be a major obstacle if they got promoted to the Championship (would they need, for example, to look to sell more shares to fans or look to get third party, non-majority, finance?). Having said that, they are moving to a new stadium, so they've found some money from somewhere, but you obviously have a far better understanding of how the club is run than me/most of us on here.
With their budget though it's hard to see them doing anything other than, at best, trundling along in L1and hoping for a 'Deli Alli season' where a good group of players comes along. No harm in that I suppose: better than the abject misery of having Douchebag in charge forever.
A large part of reducing our £10M defecit will fall on the new owners. 1000/1500 extra STs will help with the revenue stream, but they'll have to launch a massive publicity drive to get new fans and/or old and lapsed fans back. For that, they'll have to back it up in every aspect of how the club is run (Valley Express, ticket office, Kat Tax, etcetera).
There is a tremendous opportunity for new owners to turn the club around and win back the fan base, and that should be something that, perhaps, CARD and CAST could focus more on (accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative if you like).
But getting fans back - even up to 14/15k - means more revenue, more beers and pies sold, more programmes, more Junior Reds, more advertising and sponsorship... so yes, with all of that we could, as a club, meet somewhere in the middle between my (well, Roland's) £10M and Wimbledon's £4M.
LdT has under fairly intense questioning not a straight up statement, referenced the complexity of the Aussie bid - on two separate occasions, he said it a lot in the first meeting - and that the delay is connected with the submission of papers - he insisted it wasn’t a resubmission; and that they had the money.
All this points to an issue with one or more of the investors and or opacity in the ownership structure.