It seems Roland is indeed waiting for a “purley” price and it seems we must all wait for an oyster to create one from a grain of sand...couple of hundred years is that?
I am not sure that people are reading properly what NLA is saying; and without an ounce of insider knowledge; I think his conclusion is right. It is possible that everyone in the consortium can afford to buy the club on their own, Muir certainly but they are not prepared to and want to share the financial burden amongst a range of people.
I can afford to by a mint E-Type Jag if i sold my house and divorced the wife but I am not prepared to do that!
I am not sure that people are reading properly what NLA is saying; and without an ounce of insider knowledge; I think his conclusion is right. It is possible that everyone in the consortium can afford to buy the club on their own, Muir certainly but they are not prepared to and want to share the financial burden amongst a range of people.
I can afford to by a mint E-Type Jag if i sold my house and divorced the wife but I am not prepared to do that!
Fuck me, is this what it's come to - people arguing about whether the old fucker is asset stripping or not?
The font of all knowledge that is Wikipedia (I know) says this:
Asset stripping is a term used to refer to the practice of selling off a company's assets in order to improve returns for equity investors. With a lower level of assets, it is maintained, the business is rendered financially less stable or viable.
Certainly sounds like it to me. Reducing liabilities = improving returns for equity investors, and we only have one of those.
But either way, it matters not. There is quite clearly only one person to blame for the current 4+ year shitfest we are enduring and to suggest there is even a morsel of blame falling elsewhere, quite frankly, comes across as pie in the sky heatwave induced jibbering bollocks.
I don’t think anyone anywhere has suggested there is anyone to blame than RD for all of this
If it turns out that the Aussies made false bids in order to secure the club without having the funds in place that imo is nothing to do with the situation we have with RD but is well worthy of discussion debate and criticism
WTF????
They don’t have the money so why out bid people who do there are questions that need to be asked
And they have never had the money
Not according to the Club who said in their statement that the Aussies had the funds. Do you have proof to the contrary?
A year ago their website stated they were seeking investors.
The SLP reported this week they are seeking investors.
They tried to drop the price at the last minute, hoping RD would accept as he had no other options.
All 3 facts have been well reported in tbe press, 2+2+2 is not 7.
The Aussies dropping their offer late doors is no different than RD starting high at a reported £50M.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
I am not sure that people are reading properly what NLA is saying; and without an ounce of insider knowledge; I think his conclusion is right. It is possible that everyone in the consortium can afford to buy the club on their own, Muir certainly but they are not prepared to and want to share the financial burden amongst a range of people.
I can afford to by a mint E-Type Jag if i sold my house and divorced the wife but I am not prepared to do that!
What about just divorcing your wife?
Don't bring his wife into this, we have enough problems already
I have to apologise to @nth london addick to the extent that I asserted he did not share with me privately his sources, he did tell me a fair bit back in June, and quite reasonably he would not have wanted to say more in public. But those sources have not been used elsewhere to the best of my knowledge. They were the result of coincidences that sometimes happen.
That said, I'm still concerned that he is making suppositions about the state of play rather than being able to be sure enough to assert that "the Aussies don't have the money" and that's the subject of a further private discussion.
Separately, to ward off the rather tiresome insinuations I see surfacing here again, I would like to mention that neither I nor any of my close Charlton buddies have had any private conversation with Richard Murray since early January.
I think you are overlooking this, although accept you would dispute that being a private conversation since there was a report. However, Murray is just one source for information among many. It's not nearly good enough to think the multiple stories out there are mainly or wholly sourced from him. I really don't see why De Turck would hold a meeting so he can tells lies to the FF, for example. As per the credit card payments disclosure, he appears more naive than calculating.
Taken from the above meeting between Richard Murray and the Trust in June.
"Richard reiterated what he told us back in January - that he is not party to the details of the negotiations. He was however able to tell us that the two parties (one Australian; one British) who were negotiating with Roland Duchatelet in January are still in negotiations."
So if we believe Murray the deal had not been concluded in June and they were still negotiating.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
I would be shocked and gutted if they are only looking to raise the asking price, what would they intend to do once they owned the club?
I'm fairly sure they easily have enough money to buy the club but they don't want to buy it until they have investment enough to take the club forward.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
Golfie, yes ages ago. But remember, they raised, or are raising (?), enough to buy the club and run it in such a way that it could be promoted to the PL in 5 years. It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
Golfie, yes ages ago. But remember, they raised, or are raising (?), enough to buy the club and run it in such a way that it could be promoted to the PL in 5 years. It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
I believe that to satisfy EFL regulations any buyer has to have funds in place to cover running costs for 2 years (I could be wrong there). Not enough funds to get to the PL in five years!! The latter would be around £150m, the former significantly less than that but more than the purchase price of course.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
If the Aussies officially pulled out today, I hardly think we would be better off. You're supposition is very naive, thinking Muir could just put in an extra amount of millions and then just sort it out later. If they haven't got the funds after a year, how will they easily achieve it in the short term ?
I just rewatched the Sunderland game on a much clearer stream and keep thinking what a decent season we would have if we had new owners and strengthened the squad by now. Aribo, KAG and Taylor are all good players for this division and our whole team looked well above Sunderland for over 40 minutes. Even though we lost in the end I still think we can play more entertaining football than they do. Some of our players are definitely technically superior. This is the best Charlton performance I've watched for some time. (I didn't get to watch any of the playoff games last season)
But.... our squad is too thin so we simply won't be able to keep playing this well throughout the season during which more injuries are going to happen.
Perhaps I should've put this post in the post-match thread but our issues are totally down to RD. We have a good team but a tiny squad and it'd be a real shame if we ended up just around mid-table or even lower. If RD is gone tomorrow I believe we can start looking forward to a great new season.........
I have to apologise to @nth london addick to the extent that I asserted he did not share with me privately his sources, he did tell me a fair bit back in June, and quite reasonably he would not have wanted to say more in public. But those sources have not been used elsewhere to the best of my knowledge. They were the result of coincidences that sometimes happen.
That said, I'm still concerned that he is making suppositions about the state of play rather than being able to be sure enough to assert that "the Aussies don't have the money" and that's the subject of a further private discussion.
Separately, to ward off the rather tiresome insinuations I see surfacing here again, I would like to mention that neither I nor any of my close Charlton buddies have had any private conversation with Richard Murray since early January.
I think you are overlooking this, although accept you would dispute that being a private conversation since there was a report. However, Murray is just one source for information among many. It's not nearly good enough to think the multiple stories out there are mainly or wholly sourced from him. I really don't see why De Turck would hold a meeting so he can tells lies to the FF, for example. As per the credit card payments disclosure, he appears more naive than calculating.
Taken from the above meeting between Richard Murray and the Trust in June.
"Richard reiterated what he told us back in January - that he is not party to the details of the negotiations. He was however able to tell us that the two parties (one Australian; one British) who were negotiating with Roland Duchatelet in January are still in negotiations."
So if we believe Murray the deal had not been concluded in June and they were still negotiating.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
Golfie, yes ages ago. But remember, they raised, or are raising (?), enough to buy the club and run it in such a way that it could be promoted to the PL in 5 years. It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
I believe that to satisfy EFL regulations any buyer has to have funds in place to cover running costs for 2 years (I could be wrong there). Not enough funds to get to the PL in five years!! The latter would be around £150m, the former significantly less than that but more than the purchase price of course.
Sorry Bob, I was referring to the Aussies’ plan, rather than the EFL’s rules.
Could it be that the earlier statement (from GM via @JamesSeed I believe) about the "difficult two weeks ahead" is simply that they Aussie Consortium have given Duchatelet an ultimatum that unless he sells by August 9th, i.e. close of the transfer window (excluding loans) then the deal is off. Part of the 2 week window deal might be that, in that time, Duchatelet (as the current owner) is free to buy (unlikely) or sell players as he pleases? Would explain the derisory offers to Aribo, Fosu and (most likely) Bauer as he would be hoping they would all look elsewhere (like Konsa) and he would get some 'quick cash'.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
Golfie, yes ages ago. But remember, they raised, or are raising (?), enough to buy the club and run it in such a way that it could be promoted to the PL in 5 years. It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
Sorry......I was trying to keep it simple. Same premise as above but substitue £4m each to £10m each. £100m now - £40m to buy the club & £60m to cover running costs & players purchases for 3-5 years. I think £150-£200m is rather excessive. Does new Sunderland owner have this amount of money ?? How is he funding them going forward (genuine question - saw brief interview with him yesterday but don't know any figures)
I think your right and at the same time he will sell anything and anyone that has value to fund the day to day losses
Asset stripping is not asset stripping if it’s covering running costs
It feels like it is to us as fans but he is running it as a business and the sales are cash flow
It sucks but I don’t see anything to fault in your post
asset stripping is asset stripping. if i told you i had a ferrari for 100k then decided to take all of the interior ans engine out before you turn up to buy, how can i ask for the same money if its basically a lump of metal with a flash horse badge?
We know how much his monthly losses are all he is doing is selling to cover the running costs it’s not asset stripping
He is the owner, it's his responsibility to cover the monthly losses. The fact is, if he removes saleable assets from the club, he cannot expect to receive the same price for the business as he expected a few months prior to removing those assets. Part of the valuation of a business is based on it's assets. If those assets are removed/sold, then the value decreases.
I think your right and at the same time he will sell anything and anyone that has value to fund the day to day losses
Asset stripping is not asset stripping if it’s covering running costs
It feels like it is to us as fans but he is running it as a business and the sales are cash flow
It sucks but I don’t see anything to fault in your post
asset stripping is asset stripping. if i told you i had a ferrari for 100k then decided to take all of the interior ans engine out before you turn up to buy, how can i ask for the same money if its basically a lump of metal with a flash horse badge?
We know how much his monthly losses are all he is doing is selling to cover the running costs it’s not asset stripping
He could have reduced his running costs by selling at a reasonable price months ago. Now he is still running at a loss with a rapidly depreciating commodity
And this is where it is both baffling and worrying.
Baffling as surely Dushitelet does not want to lose the increasing millions he seemingly is.
Worrying that he seems to be able to afford to lose this money.
Sad times.
That’s always been the biggest fear I had he is rich enough to say screw you I don’t care
Like was said yesterday sell the club for 10 mil less or lose 10 mil over the season what’s the difference to him
If he waits another year couldn’t he end up losing £10m on running the club AND sell for £10m less?
Yep he could but he doesn’t seem to give two shits about that does he
And this is what doesn't make sense. If he had sold in January for a few million less than he wanted he would not have needed to cover the losses for the past 6-7 months. If the £1m a month figure is anywhere near accurate he could have taken £5m off the asking price and still been in pocket compared to now.
He stands to lose even more money the longer this goes on. Duchatelet is not a stupid man, but why does he constantly seem to give the impression he is.
Not stupid, agreed.
However it does make you wonder what goes on in his head bearing in mind the catalogue of clangers since January 2014.
I am not sure that people are reading properly what NLA is saying; and without an ounce of insider knowledge; I think his conclusion is right. It is possible that everyone in the consortium can afford to buy the club on their own, Muir certainly but they are not prepared to and want to share the financial burden amongst a range of people.
I can afford to by a mint E-Type Jag if i sold my house and divorced the wife but I am not prepared to do that!
what about if it came with a little batchelor dwelling ?
Also, if its a big deal for the EFL to say to new owners that you must have enough money to cover costs for next 2 years then why doesn't that apply to RD now ?? We are in a worse position with RD than with new owners but they let him carry on. Should there not be an annual inspection to make sure you still have enough money to run your club (I have one done on me by the FCA every year to make sure I'm fit & proper....even down to my assets & liabilities & I don't earn enough to be VAT registered). Its all right to say "but he does have money - he's financed us before" but he's plainly not doing so now & simply asset stripping to pay monthly running costs - in any other business that would soon lead to closure
Also, if its a big deal for the EFL to say to new owners that you must have enough money to cover costs for next 2 years then why doesn't that apply to RD now ?? We are in a worse position with RD than with new owners but they let him carry on. Should there not be an annual inspection to make sure you still have enough money to run your club (I have one done on me by the FCA every year to make sure I'm fit & proper....even down to my assets & liabilities & I don't earn enough to be VAT registered). Its all right to say "but he does have money - he's financed us before" but he's plainly not doing so now & simply asset stripping to pay monthly running costs - in any other business that would soon lead to closure
I'm not aware that players are not getting paid or that the electricity has been cut off - or indeed he is running up debt other than to himself.
He does have enough money to cover the running costs - and is.
Also, if its a big deal for the EFL to say to new owners that you must have enough money to cover costs for next 2 years then why doesn't that apply to RD now ?? We are in a worse position with RD than with new owners but they let him carry on. Should there not be an annual inspection to make sure you still have enough money to run your club (I have one done on me by the FCA every year to make sure I'm fit & proper....even down to my assets & liabilities & I don't earn enough to be VAT registered). Its all right to say "but he does have money - he's financed us before" but he's plainly not doing so now & simply asset stripping to pay monthly running costs - in any other business that would soon lead to closure
I'm afraid RD can pretty much do as he pleases. He could sell the whole team if he choses to do so and play the Academy youngsters in the first team provided they were of age.
Fuck me, is this what it's come to - people arguing about whether the old fucker is asset stripping or not?
The font of all knowledge that is Wikipedia (I know) says this:
Asset stripping is a term used to refer to the practice of selling off a company's assets in order to improve returns for equity investors. With a lower level of assets, it is maintained, the business is rendered financially less stable or viable.
Certainly sounds like it to me. Reducing liabilities = improving returns for equity investors, and we only have one of those.
But either way, it matters not. There is quite clearly only one person to blame for the current 4+ year shitfest we are enduring and to suggest there is even a morsel of blame falling elsewhere, quite frankly, comes across as pie in the sky heatwave induced jibbering bollocks.
I don’t think anyone anywhere has suggested there is anyone to blame than RD for all of this
If it turns out that the Aussies made false bids in order to secure the club without having the funds in place that imo is nothing to do with the situation we have with RD but is well worthy of discussion debate and criticism
WTF????
They don’t have the money so why out bid people who do there are questions that need to be asked
And they have never had the money
So you say. Without ever having presented a shred of evidence or even a hint of what source you might have for this assertion. Not even in private. No answer to the proposition that no sane businessman "has the money" when that fuckwit is asking for money that has no rational business basis.
And then you write
"I don’t think anyone anywhere has suggested there is anyone to blame than RD for all of this "
I have a lot of respect for you, as you know, and I also know you have good contacts, but unless you can stand this shit up, you are not doing us any favours. We need to get this poison out of our club, rather than poison the ground for the new owners.
I have to apologise to @nth london addick to the extent that I asserted he did not share with me privately his sources, he did tell me a fair bit back in June, and quite reasonably he would not have wanted to say more in public. But those sources have not been used elsewhere to the best of my knowledge. They were the result of coincidences that sometimes happen.
That said, I'm still concerned that he is making suppositions about the state of play rather than being able to be sure enough to assert that "the Aussies don't have the money" and that's the subject of a further private discussion.
Separately, to ward off the rather tiresome insinuations I see surfacing here again, I would like to mention that neither I nor any of my close Charlton buddies have had any private conversation with Richard Murray since early January.
I think you are overlooking this, although accept you would dispute that being a private conversation since there was a report. However, Murray is just one source for information among many. It's not nearly good enough to think the multiple stories out there are mainly or wholly sourced from him. I really don't see why De Turck would hold a meeting so he can tells lies to the FF, for example. As per the credit card payments disclosure, he appears more naive than calculating.
Yes. I am talking about private conversations which you know he liked to have with various people as a way of "getting messages out there". In happier times, you would have been one of the recipients, right. You have subsequently become concerned that I in particular were being too easily swayed by continuing such conversations long after you had decided that his words could not be trusted. There was that time you posted a foto of me in the Directors Box for the Forest evening match...All of which is OK, btw, I respect your concern, although I regret that you saw my actions as gullible rather than, as I would see it, as a result of having a slightly different view of the business world and how it works.
Which brings me on to your de Turck point. I was not there, and I freely admit to being at odds, in a cordial way, with the two CAST guys who were there, on this. Now, I would not be disputing this, were it not for what I regard as the highly credible source of @Addickted who has now 3 times confirmed that he understands the ODT test has been completed, and that some weeks ago. We all need to make a determined effort to get to the bottom of this flat out contradiction on a very fundamental issue.
But you still ask, why would de Turck lie? My answer is, for exactly the same reason that Richard Murray has been saying what he has to us in the last months. You would call them "lies" too. However RM has explained it this way. He is the non-exec chairman. He therefore reports to the shareholders. That means, to RD. Rightly or wrongly he has felt it necessary to behave as a loyal employee. Mr de Turck is in the same boat, even more so, as he is a long standing CFO of one of RD's companies who has obviously been asked to see this through as part of his employed role. If Duchatelet tells him to try to and pin the blame on the EFL, because that would put pressure on the Aussies, he will do as instructed. Further, regardless of the actual status, I think the EFL will be less than impressed that Mr de Turck said this. They are absolutely paranoid at present about secrecy of ongoing deals due to problems in the Sunderland process. I would have thought it might also be a breach of signed NDAs too. If I was him, I would have said nothing, citing NDAs. Mr de Turck is the CFO of a micro-electronics firm. He may not be overly familiar with the current politics of English football. But he is a loyal employee.
Jeez.......I thought we'd done this hundreds of pages ago.
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
Golfie, yes ages ago. But remember, they raised, or are raising (?), enough to buy the club and run it in such a way that it could be promoted to the PL in 5 years. It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
I believe that to satisfy EFL regulations any buyer has to have funds in place to cover running costs for 2 years (I could be wrong there). Not enough funds to get to the PL in five years!! The latter would be around £150m, the former significantly less than that but more than the purchase price of course.
Quite - but funds to run the club for two years would be closer to £15-£20m, because the EFL isn't entitled to assume it would be in a higher division or chasing promotion from this one.
@PragueAddick go and ask the person who wrote the SLP article
The club has said many things all from the mouth of a liar or multiple liars
I have said on here where I got told the aussies had no money
It was laughed at because it came from the RD side
GM told James seed there was still two that needed to sign off
Now the fact the Aussies are again still being reported to be searching for investors and the deal is in real jeopardy and Keith harris is actively working on resolving
There are still those that wish to believe a statement from known liars
Richard Murray could tell me that today is sunday and my name is darren
I would still check the calendar and my driving licence
This whole dirty sorry saga has been going on here since October 2017 we are two months from a year
Instead of asking me where the evidence is to substantiate my claim that they don’t have it or have never had it
The real question should be prove that they have
When their own side is taking about still looking for investors 10 months later
I think my proof has been substantiated
Roland has screwed this great club to the floor by its balls and will continue to do so
Two possibly 3 parties have tickled his ego valuation enough for him to believe he is right
His valuation however absurd you or I may think it is people are looking and biting his hook
Something never sat right with me about the Aussie bid and I will be honest and happy to be proved wrong about them and we will only know should they have somehow found the funds since harris let out his snitbit
So from here on in it’s not me having to justify my posts mine have been proven right
It’s for the Aussies to put up or shut up stay or walk simple as
But all the time they are hanging around without completing it’s a black cloud not a silver lines one
Do you or do you not concede that Andrew Muir has the wherewithal to purchase the club if he so wished.....either as an individual or by raising his stake in the consortium?
I have answered that question so many times on here
One of their investors has a personal wealth to buy us on his own but chooses not too
We are not talking about Andrew Muir as a single entity we are talking about a consortium he is part of and right now we don’t know if he alone is holding is 10% 50% 85% of that consortium
I thought he has stated that he wants it to be a consortium of equals i.e. equal financial input from each investor?
Which is in need of further investigation then because if he only wants the same as for example 10 others then this consortium is doomed to fail
Sorry, that doesn’t make sense.
What do you mean ‘wants the same’?
There could be five investors all putting in £30m.
There could be 30 putting in a mil
Comments like that don't help.
But that’s the whole point we do not know just how many or how few we do not know their intentions at all
All we know is that in more than a yr they haven’t raised the relevant funds to invest according to their own deal broker
So it could well be as complex as 30 loan investors
Highly doubtful but still possible
There’s got to be more to the failure to complete so far other than Director loans there just has to be
And harris has now publicly stated what that issue is
Its dragging on because no one is willing to pay £47mn, that's the agreed price of £40mn and then add the Directors Loans. That's assuming the Australians had their complete syndicate together for the £40mn in the first place or since. The debate goes on but the price remains ridiculously the same, keeping buyers away.
I think all of us agree that his valuation is high and above what most think is reasonable
But we do know that the 40 mil has been bid by two parties
One Saudi one aussie
The 7mil I refuse to believe was unknown by RD or those bidding
I also think that it’s the easiest part to work through
The biggest indicator is harris quotes in SLP Friday
There are no quotes from Harris in the SLP and nothing to suggest that Rich has spoken to him. I'm not saying the story is wrong, but it's unlikely to have come direct from Harris in my opinion.
I have to apologise to @nth london addick to the extent that I asserted he did not share with me privately his sources, he did tell me a fair bit back in June, and quite reasonably he would not have wanted to say more in public. But those sources have not been used elsewhere to the best of my knowledge. They were the result of coincidences that sometimes happen.
That said, I'm still concerned that he is making suppositions about the state of play rather than being able to be sure enough to assert that "the Aussies don't have the money" and that's the subject of a further private discussion.
Separately, to ward off the rather tiresome insinuations I see surfacing here again, I would like to mention that neither I nor any of my close Charlton buddies have had any private conversation with Richard Murray since early January.
I think you are overlooking this, although accept you would dispute that being a private conversation since there was a report. However, Murray is just one source for information among many. It's not nearly good enough to think the multiple stories out there are mainly or wholly sourced from him. I really don't see why De Turck would hold a meeting so he can tells lies to the FF, for example. As per the credit card payments disclosure, he appears more naive than calculating.
Taken from the above meeting between Richard Murray and the Trust in June.
"Richard reiterated what he told us back in January - that he is not party to the details of the negotiations. He was however able to tell us that the two parties (one Australian; one British) who were negotiating with Roland Duchatelet in January are still in negotiations."
So if we believe Murray the deal had not been concluded in June and they were still negotiating.
February: "Although the takeover has not yet been completed, the good news is the terms of the deal, including the price, have now been agreed between the parties and we are now just waiting for their respective lawyers to finalise the sale and purchase agreement."
@PragueAddick go and ask the person who wrote the SLP article
The club has said many things all from the mouth of a liar or multiple liars
I have said on here where I got told the aussies had no money
It was laughed at because it came from the RD side
GM told James seed there was still two that needed to sign off
Now the fact the Aussies are again still being reported to be searching for investors and the deal is in real jeopardy and Keith harris is actively working on resolving
There are still those that wish to believe a statement from known liars
Richard Murray could tell me that today is sunday and my name is darren
I would still check the calendar and my driving licence
This whole dirty sorry saga has been going on here since October 2017 we are two months from a year
Instead of asking me where the evidence is to substantiate my claim that they don’t have it or have never had it
The real question should be prove that they have
When their own side is taking about still looking for investors 10 months later
I think my proof has been substantiated
Roland has screwed this great club to the floor by its balls and will continue to do so
Two possibly 3 parties have tickled his ego valuation enough for him to believe he is right
His valuation however absurd you or I may think it is people are looking and biting his hook
Something never sat right with me about the Aussie bid and I will be honest and happy to be proved wrong about them and we will only know should they have somehow found the funds since harris let out his snitbit
So from here on in it’s not me having to justify my posts mine have been proven right
It’s for the Aussies to put up or shut up stay or walk simple as
But all the time they are hanging around without completing it’s a black cloud not a silver lines one
Do you or do you not concede that Andrew Muir has the wherewithal to purchase the club if he so wished.....either as an individual or by raising his stake in the consortium?
I have answered that question so many times on here
One of their investors has a personal wealth to buy us on his own but chooses not too
We are not talking about Andrew Muir as a single entity we are talking about a consortium he is part of and right now we don’t know if he alone is holding is 10% 50% 85% of that consortium
I thought he has stated that he wants it to be a consortium of equals i.e. equal financial input from each investor?
Which is in need of further investigation then because if he only wants the same as for example 10 others then this consortium is doomed to fail
Sorry, that doesn’t make sense.
What do you mean ‘wants the same’?
There could be five investors all putting in £30m.
There could be 30 putting in a mil
Comments like that don't help.
But that’s the whole point we do not know just how many or how few we do not know their intentions at all
All we know is that in more than a yr they haven’t raised the relevant funds to invest according to their own deal broker
So it could well be as complex as 30 loan investors
Highly doubtful but still possible
There’s got to be more to the failure to complete so far other than Director loans there just has to be
And harris has now publicly stated what that issue is
Its dragging on because no one is willing to pay £47mn, that's the agreed price of £40mn and then add the Directors Loans. That's assuming the Australians had their complete syndicate together for the £40mn in the first place or since. The debate goes on but the price remains ridiculously the same, keeping buyers away.
I think all of us agree that his valuation is high and above what most think is reasonable
But we do know that the 40 mil has been bid by two parties
One Saudi one aussie
The 7mil I refuse to believe was unknown by RD or those bidding
I also think that it’s the easiest part to work through
The biggest indicator is harris quotes in SLP Friday
There are no quotes from Harris in the SLP and nothing to suggest that Rich has spoken to him. I'm not saying the story is wrong, but it's unlikely to have come direct from Harris in my opinion.
I forgot to ask NLA this...what is Harris supposed to have said, can you remind us? Ta.
I have to apologise to @nth london addick to the extent that I asserted he did not share with me privately his sources, he did tell me a fair bit back in June, and quite reasonably he would not have wanted to say more in public. But those sources have not been used elsewhere to the best of my knowledge. They were the result of coincidences that sometimes happen.
That said, I'm still concerned that he is making suppositions about the state of play rather than being able to be sure enough to assert that "the Aussies don't have the money" and that's the subject of a further private discussion.
Separately, to ward off the rather tiresome insinuations I see surfacing here again, I would like to mention that neither I nor any of my close Charlton buddies have had any private conversation with Richard Murray since early January.
I think you are overlooking this, although accept you would dispute that being a private conversation since there was a report. However, Murray is just one source for information among many. It's not nearly good enough to think the multiple stories out there are mainly or wholly sourced from him. I really don't see why De Turck would hold a meeting so he can tells lies to the FF, for example. As per the credit card payments disclosure, he appears more naive than calculating.
Taken from the above meeting between Richard Murray and the Trust in June.
"Richard reiterated what he told us back in January - that he is not party to the details of the negotiations. He was however able to tell us that the two parties (one Australian; one British) who were negotiating with Roland Duchatelet in January are still in negotiations."
So if we believe Murray the deal had not been concluded in June and they were still negotiating.
February: "Although the takeover has not yet been completed, the good news is the terms of the deal, including the price, have now been agreed between the parties and we are now just waiting for their respective lawyers to finalise the sale and purchase agreement."
@PragueAddick go and ask the person who wrote the SLP article
The club has said many things all from the mouth of a liar or multiple liars
I have said on here where I got told the aussies had no money
It was laughed at because it came from the RD side
GM told James seed there was still two that needed to sign off
Now the fact the Aussies are again still being reported to be searching for investors and the deal is in real jeopardy and Keith harris is actively working on resolving
There are still those that wish to believe a statement from known liars
Richard Murray could tell me that today is sunday and my name is darren
I would still check the calendar and my driving licence
This whole dirty sorry saga has been going on here since October 2017 we are two months from a year
Instead of asking me where the evidence is to substantiate my claim that they don’t have it or have never had it
The real question should be prove that they have
When their own side is taking about still looking for investors 10 months later
I think my proof has been substantiated
Roland has screwed this great club to the floor by its balls and will continue to do so
Two possibly 3 parties have tickled his ego valuation enough for him to believe he is right
His valuation however absurd you or I may think it is people are looking and biting his hook
Something never sat right with me about the Aussie bid and I will be honest and happy to be proved wrong about them and we will only know should they have somehow found the funds since harris let out his snitbit
So from here on in it’s not me having to justify my posts mine have been proven right
It’s for the Aussies to put up or shut up stay or walk simple as
But all the time they are hanging around without completing it’s a black cloud not a silver lines one
Do you or do you not concede that Andrew Muir has the wherewithal to purchase the club if he so wished.....either as an individual or by raising his stake in the consortium?
I have answered that question so many times on here
One of their investors has a personal wealth to buy us on his own but chooses not too
We are not talking about Andrew Muir as a single entity we are talking about a consortium he is part of and right now we don’t know if he alone is holding is 10% 50% 85% of that consortium
I thought he has stated that he wants it to be a consortium of equals i.e. equal financial input from each investor?
Which is in need of further investigation then because if he only wants the same as for example 10 others then this consortium is doomed to fail
Sorry, that doesn’t make sense.
What do you mean ‘wants the same’?
There could be five investors all putting in £30m.
There could be 30 putting in a mil
Comments like that don't help.
But that’s the whole point we do not know just how many or how few we do not know their intentions at all
All we know is that in more than a yr they haven’t raised the relevant funds to invest according to their own deal broker
So it could well be as complex as 30 loan investors
Highly doubtful but still possible
There’s got to be more to the failure to complete so far other than Director loans there just has to be
And harris has now publicly stated what that issue is
Its dragging on because no one is willing to pay £47mn, that's the agreed price of £40mn and then add the Directors Loans. That's assuming the Australians had their complete syndicate together for the £40mn in the first place or since. The debate goes on but the price remains ridiculously the same, keeping buyers away.
I think all of us agree that his valuation is high and above what most think is reasonable
But we do know that the 40 mil has been bid by two parties
One Saudi one aussie
The 7mil I refuse to believe was unknown by RD or those bidding
I also think that it’s the easiest part to work through
The biggest indicator is harris quotes in SLP Friday
There are no quotes from Harris in the SLP and nothing to suggest that Rich has spoken to him. I'm not saying the story is wrong, but it's unlikely to have come direct from Harris in my opinion.
I forgot to ask NLA this...what is Harris supposed to have said, can you remind us? Ta.
Below is a link to the full article.
As you will see Harris is referred to but nothing in it is attributed to him:
So the fact(?) The Aussies do not have the money came from RDs side and is known to posters on here but RD still chose their bid over a Saudi Princes a little lower. Sorry, I don't buy it.
@PragueAddick go and ask the person who wrote the SLP article
The club has said many things all from the mouth of a liar or multiple liars
I have said on here where I got told the aussies had no money
It was laughed at because it came from the RD side
GM told James seed there was still two that needed to sign off
Now the fact the Aussies are again still being reported to be searching for investors and the deal is in real jeopardy and Keith harris is actively working on resolving
There are still those that wish to believe a statement from known liars
Richard Murray could tell me that today is sunday and my name is darren
I would still check the calendar and my driving licence
This whole dirty sorry saga has been going on here since October 2017 we are two months from a year
Instead of asking me where the evidence is to substantiate my claim that they don’t have it or have never had it
The real question should be prove that they have
When their own side is taking about still looking for investors 10 months later
I think my proof has been substantiated
Roland has screwed this great club to the floor by its balls and will continue to do so
Two possibly 3 parties have tickled his ego valuation enough for him to believe he is right
His valuation however absurd you or I may think it is people are looking and biting his hook
Something never sat right with me about the Aussie bid and I will be honest and happy to be proved wrong about them and we will only know should they have somehow found the funds since harris let out his snitbit
So from here on in it’s not me having to justify my posts mine have been proven right
It’s for the Aussies to put up or shut up stay or walk simple as
But all the time they are hanging around without completing it’s a black cloud not a silver lines one
Do you or do you not concede that Andrew Muir has the wherewithal to purchase the club if he so wished.....either as an individual or by raising his stake in the consortium?
I have answered that question so many times on here
One of their investors has a personal wealth to buy us on his own but chooses not too
We are not talking about Andrew Muir as a single entity we are talking about a consortium he is part of and right now we don’t know if he alone is holding is 10% 50% 85% of that consortium
I thought he has stated that he wants it to be a consortium of equals i.e. equal financial input from each investor?
Which is in need of further investigation then because if he only wants the same as for example 10 others then this consortium is doomed to fail
Sorry, that doesn’t make sense.
What do you mean ‘wants the same’?
There could be five investors all putting in £30m.
There could be 30 putting in a mil
Comments like that don't help.
But that’s the whole point we do not know just how many or how few we do not know their intentions at all
All we know is that in more than a yr they haven’t raised the relevant funds to invest according to their own deal broker
So it could well be as complex as 30 loan investors
Highly doubtful but still possible
There’s got to be more to the failure to complete so far other than Director loans there just has to be
And harris has now publicly stated what that issue is
Its dragging on because no one is willing to pay £47mn, that's the agreed price of £40mn and then add the Directors Loans. That's assuming the Australians had their complete syndicate together for the £40mn in the first place or since. The debate goes on but the price remains ridiculously the same, keeping buyers away.
I think all of us agree that his valuation is high and above what most think is reasonable
But we do know that the 40 mil has been bid by two parties
One Saudi one aussie
The 7mil I refuse to believe was unknown by RD or those bidding
I also think that it’s the easiest part to work through
The biggest indicator is harris quotes in SLP Friday
There are no quotes from Harris in the SLP and nothing to suggest that Rich has spoken to him. I'm not saying the story is wrong, but it's unlikely to have come direct from Harris in my opinion.
I forgot to ask NLA this...what is Harris supposed to have said, can you remind us? Ta.
Below is a link to the full article.
As you will see Harris is referred to but nothing in it is attributed to him:
There is also no mention of Harris working for the Australians. The way I read it is that he has been asked to find interested parties.
The quote I am referring to is: "Harris was tasked with finding other investors to push the takeover through and it is unclear if he has achieved that.", which seems to be pointing to his original brief with RD, not extra subscribers to the consortium.
Comments
10 investors (my guess) all putting in £4m each. Put in FPP papers and 2 get knocked back. Now need to find an additional 2 investors with £4m each to replace them. Not finding it easy & now Harris is involved (maybe via RD as he's had enough already).
Would be easier if the remaining 8 (my guess) upped their stake to £5m each. Would also be much easier if Muir just upped his stake (chicken feed to him) & got the deal over the line but I understand if he wants everyone to be equal.......although he could do this & then find more investors & re-arrange % at a later date.
All pure guesswork of course but all plausible. Fits in with NLA's "don't have the money". Back in May they most probably did as I doubt they would have gone to the EFL if not, but now they don't. Also back in May we were more of an attractive propostion (play-offs) than we are now (and getting worse)......hence why finding it hard to find people daft enough to part with £4m (my figures).
As I've said before.....as every day passes the Aussies are making it harder for themselves & not endearing themselves to (some) fans. If it to do with money (either finding investors or paying ex-directors) then just buy the fecking club now & sort out the issues later. The money they are dicking about over is not insurmountable. If not then just walk. We are in a worse mess now because they are still hangng around - RD believes it will all go through v soon so is not running us properly (no CEO, selling players to fund costs etc). If there were no buyers around he would do things differently.
"Richard reiterated what he told us back in January - that he is not party to the details of the negotiations. He was however able to tell us that the two parties (one Australian; one British) who were negotiating with Roland Duchatelet in January are still in negotiations."
So if we believe Murray the deal had not been concluded in June and they were still negotiating.
I'm fairly sure they easily have enough money to buy the club but they don't want to buy it until they have investment enough to take the club forward.
It’s never been about raising £40m, it’s been about raising (guess alert) £150-200m.
You're supposition is very naive, thinking Muir could just put in an extra amount of millions and then just sort it out later.
If they haven't got the funds after a year, how will they easily achieve it in the short term ?
But.... our squad is too thin so we simply won't be able to keep playing this well throughout the season during which more injuries are going to happen.
Perhaps I should've put this post in the post-match thread but our issues are totally down to RD. We have a good team but a tiny squad and it'd be a real shame if we ended up just around mid-table or even lower. If RD is gone tomorrow I believe we can start looking forward to a great new season.........
However it does make you wonder what goes on in his head bearing in mind the catalogue of clangers since January 2014.
He does have enough money to cover the running costs - and is.
He could sell the whole team if he choses to do so and play the Academy youngsters in the first team provided they were of age.
Which brings me on to your de Turck point. I was not there, and I freely admit to being at odds, in a cordial way, with the two CAST guys who were there, on this. Now, I would not be disputing this, were it not for what I regard as the highly credible source of @Addickted who has now 3 times confirmed that he understands the ODT test has been completed, and that some weeks ago. We all need to make a determined effort to get to the bottom of this flat out contradiction on a very fundamental issue.
But you still ask, why would de Turck lie? My answer is, for exactly the same reason that Richard Murray has been saying what he has to us in the last months. You would call them "lies" too. However RM has explained it this way. He is the non-exec chairman. He therefore reports to the shareholders. That means, to RD. Rightly or wrongly he has felt it necessary to behave as a loyal employee. Mr de Turck is in the same boat, even more so, as he is a long standing CFO of one of RD's companies who has obviously been asked to see this through as part of his employed role. If Duchatelet tells him to try to and pin the blame on the EFL, because that would put pressure on the Aussies, he will do as instructed. Further, regardless of the actual status, I think the EFL will be less than impressed that Mr de Turck said this. They are absolutely paranoid at present about secrecy of ongoing deals due to problems in the Sunderland process. I would have thought it might also be a breach of signed NDAs too. If I was him, I would have said nothing, citing NDAs. Mr de Turck is the CFO of a micro-electronics firm. He may not be overly familiar with the current politics of English football. But he is a loyal employee.
https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5a96be566a1b3/richard-murray-provides-a-takeover-update-for-fans-as-february-draws-to-a-close
However, by June this was no longer the case, because 2 parties Australian and English were still negotiating.
As you will see Harris is referred to but nothing in it is attributed to him:
https://www.londonnewsonline.co.uk/charlton-athletics-takeover-talks-hanging-in-the-balance/
The quote I am referring to is: "Harris was tasked with finding other investors to push the takeover through and it is unclear if he has achieved that.", which seems to be pointing to his original brief with RD, not extra subscribers to the consortium.