The big question is - will leaving the EU affect our ground breaking scouting system? Or, put another way, will Roland still be able to get the pictures of all those world wide games in his office?
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
22 is large enough any manager wants two players for each position plus young players got to be careful not to block the path to the first team for our young players of which 3/4 will become first team players this season
The problem with that is that our squad won't be 22 plus young players will it? it will be 22 including young players. And considering that some of the 22 will be injury prone/can't last 46 games like Solly, Jackson, Diarra and others like Igor (if he stays) and Kashi coming off long term injuries, then a squad of 22 will in no way be good enough to cope with the demands of a 46 game season.
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
fixed it for you
The guy knows the league. So why not give him a chance before digging him out?
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
fixed it for you
The guy knows the league. So why not give him a chance before digging him out?
I think it is because he is the appointment of the regime. Slade has to achieve promotion as a minimum for fans to accept him in a kind of neutral fashion. I have always quite liked him as a bloke, but now he is at my club he has to deliver with no excuses.
22 is large enough any manager wants two players for each position plus young players got to be careful not to block the path to the first team for our young players of which 3/4 will become first team players this season
Pure nonsense.
You can get away with 11 but we are not talking about a Sunday league team here. There is a little more to building a squad than working from the arse end of the balance sheet.
The big question is - will leaving the EU affect our ground breaking scouting system? Or, put another way, will Roland still be able to get the pictures of all those world wide games in his office?
The bigger question is will the liar lose her right to live and 'work' in the UK.
As @Scoham has implied, you can get away with 22 if they are good enough and if the backroom medical and fitness team is superior to those of the other clubs.
I would argue even then it would be very difficult especially towards the back end of a season when fatigue and injuries begin to take their toll.
Also won't it just limit our options and the way can play? What happens if one player losses form and his replacement picks up an injury. Will we have enough personal to change shape or cover that position.
Be interesting to know Slades squad sizes when he managed Orient. If there were that small before then maybe he knows that he could be successful and this is coming from him and not the clowns upstairs.
As @Scoham has implied, you can get away with 22 if they are good enough and if the backroom medical and fitness team is superior to those of the other clubs.
I would argue even then it would be very difficult especially towards the back end of a season when fatigue and injuries begin to take their toll.
Also won't it just limit our options and the way can play? What happens if one player losses form and his replacement picks up an injury. Will we have enough personal to change shape or cover that position.
Be interesting to know Slades squad sizes when he managed Orient. If there were that small before then maybe he knows that he could be successful and this is coming from him and not the clowns upstairs.
Without looking it up would say that he would have had a small squad at the Os as they have always had tight budgets. Probably one of the things that made him an a attractive proposition to RD and KM.
What Slade said was that he wants a squad of 22 with another 3 or 4 of the promising youngsters added to that.
We are in L1 now, how many players do you actually think next season's budget will stretch too?
As Elthamaddick said none of you know who the 22 will be, but don't let that put you off of getting your moaning in early will you!
You really do make me laugh, I bet most of the posters having a dig are the one's not renewing their season tickets. Lucky we've got a budget at all really!
Depends how many of them are crocks - I got the impression he meant 22 established payers with additional youth team players who are ready pushing it up to 25. There is a balance to be had as too big a squad and the team might be less tight. I am willing to give the bloke a chance. Not the regime, but Slade is not the regime.
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
fixed it for you
The guy knows the league. So why not give him a chance before digging him out?
I think it is because he is the appointment of the regime. Slade has to achieve promotion as a minimum for fans to accept him in a kind of neutral fashion. I have always quite liked him as a bloke, but now he is at my club he has to deliver with no excuses.
This quote has now proven what certain fans of our club are like. We are not going to give him a chance as "t is because he is the appointment of the regime." Pathetic
He does say 22-25, not the 22 that it says in the thread title.
For me 22 would leave us very weak, especially with the number of injuries that our training methods produce and our medical/fitness staff seem incapable of dealing with. 25 might just be enough: 11 first teamers, 11 like for like replacements, 1 extra goalie, 2 decent utility men.
What Slade said was that he wants a squad of 22 with another 3 or 4 of the promising youngsters added to that.
We are in L1 now, how many players do you actually think next season's budget will stretch too?
As Elthamaddick said none of you know who the 22 will be, but don't let that put you off of getting your moaning in early will you!
You really do make me laugh, I bet most of the posters having a dig are the one's not renewing their season tickets. Lucky we've got a budget at all really!
Good job we've got the likes of you to "save" the club then because, as you know, not having a season ticket means you have no interest in the club, whatever your reasons for not buying.
What Slade said was that he wants a squad of 22 with another 3 or 4 of the promising youngsters added to that.
We are in L1 now, how many players do you actually think next season's budget will stretch too?
As Elthamaddick said none of you know who the 22 will be, but don't let that put you off of getting your moaning in early will you!
You really do make me laugh, I bet most of the posters having a dig are the one's not renewing their season tickets. Lucky we've got a budget at all really!
Good job we've got the likes of you to "save" the club then because, as you know, not having a season ticket means you have no interest in the club, whatever your reasons for not buying.
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
fixed it for you
The guy knows the league. So why not give him a chance before digging him out?
I think it is because he is the appointment of the regime. Slade has to achieve promotion as a minimum for fans to accept him in a kind of neutral fashion. I have always quite liked him as a bloke, but now he is at my club he has to deliver with no excuses.
This quote has now proven what certain fans of our club are like. We are not going to give him a chance as "t is because he is the appointment of the regime." Pathetic
Certain fans? Or this fan? What constitutes a chance then? I am clearly giving him a chance to get promotion which is giving him a chance isn't it. Because he is the appointment of this regime his starting position is not neutral in my opinion.
Just to add, when I said that 25 might be enough, that assumes that they are 25 good signings who are fit and well with recent experience of playing a good number of games at this level. To date the regime has liked to gamble on youngsters, old crocs and people who've not been getting a game. Such gambles can be fine, but you have to account for the fact that they won't all come off. If they continue with the same recruitment strategy, they'll need a few more bodies to allow for the inevitable failures.
Murray was bemoaning the number of key injuries that we had last season, but they didn't all come about by accident. It was as a result of their mismanagement. I hope they've learned from that. But I expect that in a years time they'll still be saying, 'we need to learn from our mistakes'.
He is looking at quality rather than quantity as well as adding 3 to 4 youth players within that squad. Regardless if it is a football team/ squad or within the workplace it is better to have continuity rather than chopping and changing, players will be more settled and confident in the knowledge they will have a run of 10 games rather than 2 or 3 before they are dropped Injured. A prime example last season was Leicester with the infamous Tinker man in charge hardly rotated the team.
fixed it for you
The guy knows the league. So why not give him a chance before digging him out?
I think it is because he is the appointment of the regime. Slade has to achieve promotion as a minimum for fans to accept him in a kind of neutral fashion. I have always quite liked him as a bloke, but now he is at my club he has to deliver with no excuses.
This quote has now proven what certain fans of our club are like. We are not going to give him a chance as "t is because he is the appointment of the regime." Pathetic
Certain fans? Or this fan? What constitutes a chance then? I am clearly giving him a chance to get promotion which is giving him a chance isn't it. Because he is the appointment of this regime his starting position is not neutral in my opinion.
I would say certain fans, and in terms of what constitutes of a chance is atleast two seasons. In one breath people are moaning that they want a British manager now that they have one he isn't good enough, or are not prepared to give him a fair crack of the whip, you couldn't make it up and i would suggest that if it was any other club we would be mocking them. Regardless who is in charge of the club, they are not prepared to sell weather you like it or not, therefore i would urge the fans to get behind Slade and the team, as a team that is in a healthy position playing good football, with decent gates is a more attractive to a potential buyer rather than a toxic one. If you wish to beat them try another tack as this one clearly isn't working.
Players used at the time he was at orient. 2010/11 29 players finished 7th. 2011/12 40 players finished 20th 2012/13 29 players finished 7th 2013/14 28 players finished 3rd.
I don't agree two seasons is a fair crack of the whip in the circumstances we are in. I expect 50 points by January 31st 2017 followed by promotion as a minimum. More or less the same chance I give the other head coaches. I don't care if the manager is from Micronesia, it is results that count. I do wish to beat this regime, and I have been trying a variety of tacks.
2 Goalkeepers (third will be sent on loan) 2 Right Backs / 2 Left-Backs / 5-Centre Backs 2 Right-Mid / 2 Left-Mid / 5-Centre Mid 4 Strikers
Squad of 24 I reckon is probably enough (Maybe one more Striker) as remember there will be players who can play multiple positions... Think that is enough to be competitive in League One, the problem that Roland is. is the squad balance as previously its roughly been.
50% Foreign / 30% Youth / 20% Experience when its needs to be 30% Foreign (max) / 60% Experience / 10% Youth.
i.e. look at the squad we won League One with... Only around 24 players were used on that occasion
Goalkeepers: Hamer / Sullivan Right-Backs: Solly ... Left-Backs: Wiggins / Evina Centre-Backs: Morrison / Taylor / Cort / Doherty Right-Mid: Wagstaff / Green ... Left-Mid: Jackson / * Loans * Centre-Mid: Hughes / Pritchard / Stephens / Hollands / Russell Strikers: Hayes / Wright-Phillips / Haynes / Kermorgant
This is starting to resemble the early days of the Peeters appointment.
The "noise" around the building of the squad then was about building from within. The challenge to such an approach is if the players "from within" are not yet ready individually or collectively to step up.
I do not think I have ever commented on Colins' contribution to this board but he does seem, at the moment, to be in overdrive in defence of "the realm".
The suggestion or "regime mantra" the squad needs to allow space for the youngsters to progress is only valid if those youngsters are ready to progress.
The assertion 3 or 4 will be regular first teamers suggest within a match day squad of 17 outfield players nearly 25% will be inexperienced and learning their trade in one of the most physically competitive divisions on the planet.
As we have seen there is a huge difference between the physicality of the U21 development league and senior football. For a young professional to be asked to step up to deliver consistently for a 46 game league season is a big ask.
It is physically and mentally exhausting. It is why even exceptional talents like Gomez and Lookman needed/ need to be managed otherwise you get burn out, loss of confidence and they start to go backwards. You risk doing significantly more harm than good
To base your squad building around having 3 or 4 of such players and then expect to be in the mix for even a play off place is foolhardy.
Colin could you please add some clarity by suggesting exactly who these 3 or 4 might be and why in performance terms they will offer more to the success of the team than their senior counterparts.
There is no magic number here. Every squad is different in terms of the balance of skills, ability physical and mental attributes, leadership and team skills.
However as with any business "project" the key is in the preparation so from the outset you build in the margins for eventualities and leave yourself the budget to cope with the unexpected or the unknown. If things do not work to plan you have the "wiggle room" to adjust, reinforce and move forward.
Even at the lowest level of the pyramid I never worked with a squad of less than 25 players.
You always need to carry/ have access to 3 goalkeepers familiar with the rest of the squad notably the back 4.
That leaves 22 outfield players.
At any given point in the season you are going to have;
- 10% on long term injuries. - 10% on short term injuries. - 10% with family, personal or domestic issues - 10% with a complete loss of form - 10% with a short term loss of form
Adding in 25% looking to take their first steps in the senior game and you are asking for trouble
All of that before you even address the ability for players to work with each other.
Every one of these risks you ignore at your peril. I welcome the use of the most senior U21 players stepping up to cover the margins and yes you always hope 1 or 2 will suddenly become stand out performers but base your campaign on a series of unproven youngsters or for that matter unproven overseas players all new to the division and you risk it falling apart.
In the past 30 months we have seen nothing remotely approaching the building of a professional football squad - it has been a lottery based on a great deal of wishful thinking and a series of "punts".
One of the best signings Powell ever made was Andy Hughes. He barely kicked a ball in anger but he provided the experience, the professionalism to provide precisely the level of cover for the squad to get the job done.
Remember the object of the exercise is supposed to be about getting the job done, to be competitive, to be successful. It is about giving the manager/ head coach the tools to do the job. The modern game is about game management and using the squad to provide you with the options to go win games.
Based on injuries and loss of form alone with only 22 outfield players in the squad as a coach you are then left with the 16/17 you want for the match day squad.
Comments
I reckon we need the following
GK - 3 (2 + 1 youth)
Def - 12 ( based on suspensions and injuries etc)
MF - 7 ( again based on suspensions and injuries)
S - 5 (3+2 youth)
So that is 27 and that assumes any youth players are good enough to actually step.
The problem with that is that our squad won't be 22 plus young players will it? it will be 22 including young players. And considering that some of the 22 will be injury prone/can't last 46 games like Solly, Jackson, Diarra and others like Igor (if he stays) and Kashi coming off long term injuries, then a squad of 22 will in no way be good enough to cope with the demands of a 46 game season.
You can get away with 11 but we are not talking about a Sunday league team here.
There is a little more to building a squad than working from the arse end of the balance sheet.
I'm oot!
22 good, fit & well prepared player, without a history of injuries & have played a good number of games in the last year, should be ok.
We'll need to change our policy, to a sensible one.
This time, more than any other time........ we'll get it right!
(you youngsters can Google it!)
What Slade said was that he wants a squad of 22 with another 3 or 4 of the promising youngsters added to that.
We are in L1 now, how many players do you actually think next season's budget will stretch too?
As Elthamaddick said none of you know who the 22 will be, but don't let that put you off of getting your moaning in early will you!
You really do make me laugh, I bet most of the posters having a dig are the one's not renewing their season tickets. Lucky we've got a budget at all really!
For me 22 would leave us very weak, especially with the number of injuries that our training methods produce and our medical/fitness staff seem incapable of dealing with. 25 might just be enough: 11 first teamers, 11 like for like replacements, 1 extra goalie, 2 decent utility men.
What constitutes a chance then?
I am clearly giving him a chance to get promotion which is giving him a chance isn't it.
Because he is the appointment of this regime his starting position is not neutral in my opinion.
Murray was bemoaning the number of key injuries that we had last season, but they didn't all come about by accident. It was as a result of their mismanagement. I hope they've learned from that. But I expect that in a years time they'll still be saying, 'we need to learn from our mistakes'.
Regardless who is in charge of the club, they are not prepared to sell weather you like it or not, therefore i would urge the fans to get behind Slade and the team, as a team that is in a healthy position playing good football, with decent gates is a more attractive to a potential buyer rather than a toxic one.
If you wish to beat them try another tack as this one clearly isn't working.
2010/11 29 players finished 7th.
2011/12 40 players finished 20th
2012/13 29 players finished 7th
2013/14 28 players finished 3rd.
FFS I hope Roland isn't reading this.
I expect 50 points by January 31st 2017 followed by promotion as a minimum. More or less the same chance I give the other head coaches. I don't care if the manager is from Micronesia, it is results that count.
I do wish to beat this regime, and I have been trying a variety of tacks.
2 Right Backs / 2 Left-Backs / 5-Centre Backs
2 Right-Mid / 2 Left-Mid / 5-Centre Mid
4 Strikers
Squad of 24 I reckon is probably enough (Maybe one more Striker) as remember there will be players who can play multiple positions... Think that is enough to be competitive in League One, the problem that Roland is. is the squad balance as previously its roughly been.
50% Foreign / 30% Youth / 20% Experience when its needs to be 30% Foreign (max) / 60% Experience / 10% Youth.
i.e. look at the squad we won League One with... Only around 24 players were used on that occasion
Goalkeepers: Hamer / Sullivan
Right-Backs: Solly ... Left-Backs: Wiggins / Evina
Centre-Backs: Morrison / Taylor / Cort / Doherty
Right-Mid: Wagstaff / Green ... Left-Mid: Jackson / * Loans *
Centre-Mid: Hughes / Pritchard / Stephens / Hollands / Russell
Strikers: Hayes / Wright-Phillips / Haynes / Kermorgant
The "noise" around the building of the squad then was about building from within. The challenge to such an approach is if the players "from within" are not yet ready individually or collectively to step up.
I do not think I have ever commented on Colins' contribution to this board but he does seem, at the moment, to be in overdrive in defence of "the realm".
The suggestion or "regime mantra" the squad needs to allow space for the youngsters to progress is only valid if those youngsters are ready to progress.
The assertion 3 or 4 will be regular first teamers suggest within a match day squad of 17 outfield players nearly 25% will be inexperienced and learning their trade in one of the most physically competitive divisions on the planet.
As we have seen there is a huge difference between the physicality of the U21 development league and senior football. For a young professional to be asked to step up to deliver consistently for a 46 game league season is a big ask.
It is physically and mentally exhausting. It is why even exceptional talents like Gomez and Lookman needed/ need to be managed otherwise you get burn out, loss of confidence and they start to go backwards. You risk doing significantly more harm than good
To base your squad building around having 3 or 4 of such players and then expect to be in the mix for even a play off place is foolhardy.
Colin could you please add some clarity by suggesting exactly who these 3 or 4 might be and why in performance terms they will offer more to the success of the team than their senior counterparts.
There is no magic number here. Every squad is different in terms of the balance of skills, ability physical and mental attributes, leadership and team skills.
However as with any business "project" the key is in the preparation so from the outset you build in the margins for eventualities and leave yourself the budget to cope with the unexpected or the unknown. If things do not work to plan you have the "wiggle room" to adjust, reinforce and move forward.
Even at the lowest level of the pyramid I never worked with a squad of less than 25 players.
You always need to carry/ have access to 3 goalkeepers familiar with the rest of the squad notably the back 4.
That leaves 22 outfield players.
At any given point in the season you are going to have;
- 10% on long term injuries.
- 10% on short term injuries.
- 10% with family, personal or domestic issues
- 10% with a complete loss of form
- 10% with a short term loss of form
Adding in 25% looking to take their first steps in the senior game and you are asking for trouble
All of that before you even address the ability for players to work with each other.
Every one of these risks you ignore at your peril. I welcome the use of the most senior U21 players stepping up to cover the margins and yes you always hope 1 or 2 will suddenly become stand out performers but base your campaign on a series of unproven youngsters or for that matter unproven overseas players all new to the division and you risk it falling apart.
In the past 30 months we have seen nothing remotely approaching the building of a professional football squad - it has been a lottery based on a great deal of wishful thinking and a series of "punts".
One of the best signings Powell ever made was Andy Hughes. He barely kicked a ball in anger but he provided the experience, the professionalism to provide precisely the level of cover for the squad to get the job done.
Remember the object of the exercise is supposed to be about getting the job done, to be competitive, to be successful. It is about giving the manager/ head coach the tools to do the job. The modern game is about game management and using the squad to provide you with the options to go win games.
Based on injuries and loss of form alone with only 22 outfield players in the squad as a coach you are then left with the 16/17 you want for the match day squad.
That is the cost of doing business to succeed.
That is what being competitive actually means.