To be serious I understand where @rikofold is coming from as a general principle re legal obligations and constitution of the fund for the 'benefit' of the Club.
The question I would ask is how does one legally define the 'benefit' of the Club?
From a fan's viewpoint it is reasonable to want to watch every Jordan, Ade or Esri for a season or two and hope that the Club 'benefits' by gaining promotion to a higher level (s) of football.
From a regime point of view selling Gomez for £3.5m keeps Katrien and Sue in vol au vents and brings in funds thus, from their perspective, giving 'benefit' to the Club by partially mitigating losses.
I tentatively suggest, I say tentatively because I am not a lawyer and I genuinely can see the legal dilemma faced by @rikofold and Paul Nottage, that given the grey area of just what is 'benefit,' as briefly described above, they could have dug their heels in more re handing over the dosh.
I have no idea who this Matt Baker bloke is with the casting vote but perhaps it might not be a bad idea for him as the supposed 'independent' to try and get some sort of legal opinion as to what 'benefit' is in this context.
If already done my apologies but I've not read that explicitly anywhere.
To answer your specific point, Matt did get legal advice in the summer and that's guided our subsequent actions.
The legal question isn't benefit actually, but the basis of the scheme is that the academy (not the club) is the primary object and whilst that continues to be the academy that's where our financial support goes.
One question we raised was whether Katrien's comments indicated a different definition of academy, but the reality is that her comments addressed what happens after the academy has developed players, and that's not within our scope.
Touched a nerve obviously - but that's how i feel. the abuse i get for a "failed" pitch invasion but these people cant be criticised!
what a joke!
leave it out.
You don't abuse, you get some stick for promising something and not delivering. That's not abuse
These people can be criticised FOR THEIR ACTIONS OR LACK OF SAME, not the same at all as calling them traitors etc.
I have argued long and hard with @rikofold over VG as anyone reading CL will know but he is not a traitor, neither are the few fans still working for the club, neither was @BDL before he quit.
play the ball, not the man.
Katrien is and employee - so play the ball not the man? give it a rest! you are judged on actions, and if that action is helping the regime then you are tarred with that brush.
or are we saying Tony, katrien and Thomas are not immune because they are the man not the ball?
Glad you live in such a black and white world. For me there are a lot shades of gray where good people are forced into uncomfortable situations and try to influence from the inside while remaining on the side of angels.
Some cross the line like John Comberford who actively supports the regime and attacks protesters. Attack them by all means but don't assume that everyone who isn't as "radical" as you is a traitor. Not only are you totally wrong it just drives more and more people away from working with you.
The views on here are MY views nothing at all to do with being part of the Belgium20 Protest. Also i dont look for people to work with me, i help lay plans for protests and if people feel passionately about joining the planned protests then that's up to them.
I'm not starting a CULT
I alone call these people traitors - myself and @jamescafc just had a debate about this on whatsapp, both of us have connections to Belgium protests but we have our own views.
If people dont want to be part of protests in Belgium that i help plan because I'm so called "radical" then that's ridiculous, and you helping them make that decision biased on nonsense is part of the problem.
People can do what the hell they like, the Valley gold people included, but I'm entitled to my opinion and i dont feel the need to censor it to get brownie points from CL.
I will continue to target everyone who aligns with the club, valley gold are part of that and i would encourage others to distance there self's from this additional revenue for the regime. That's a personal recommendation, if the Belgium20 group want to release a statement then that's up to them nothing to do with me, likewise CARD or anyone else.
Probably got more to do with CARD than you've yet realised when you're throwing insults my way
@rikofold don't know you from Adam, but whatever the rights and wrongs of all this, thanks for all the time and effort you've put into VG. Bit of a 'rock and a hard place' issue, but whatever I think about our owner/CEO they badly mis-manage a football club and are not the Third Reich, so a sense of perspective in what we call each other wouldn't go amiss
@rikofold has said many times that the way the scheme is set up means they HAVE to hand the money over. They are governed by certain legislation which means that they are obliged to do so. It seems to me that they have come up with a way of having some level of control over where the money goes, which is a positive step. Anybody who is still in the scheme has to make a decision as to whether they are comfortable with spending money on Valley Gold membership on the understanding that the money WILL go to the club in some way or another.
I find the timing of this announcement quite interesting, with it on the back of protests at the game being reintroduced in less than 2 weeks. (when was the meeting that funds would go to the academy: arranged/took place?) On the face of it this announcement, was timed to cause a potential rift between people who they see as big players in CARD and also to irritate the likes of people like me who they see as sheep into thinking, ”well, what the point of me protesting, if we as supporters are still handing over big money to the club” The rights and wrongs of VG have been done to the death. Stay strong people. We will be rid of the idiots one day, although they have played this one quite well.
I find the timing of this announcement quite interesting, with it on the back of protests at the game being reintroduced in less than 2 weeks. (when was the meeting that funds would go to the academy: arranged/took place?) On the face of it this announcement, was timed to cause a potential rift between people who they see as big players in CARD and also to irritate the likes of people like me who they see as sheep into thinking, ”well, what the point of me protesting, if we as supporters are still handing over big money to the club” The rights and wrongs of VG have been done to the death. Stay strong people. We will be rid of the idiots one day, although they have played this one quite well.
Yep, I'm all about trying to cause a rift with those big players in CARD. Damn you big players, says this idiot.
Touched a nerve obviously - but that's how i feel. the abuse i get for a "failed" pitch invasion but these people cant be criticised!
what a joke!
leave it out.
You don't abuse, you get some stick for promising something and not delivering. That's not abuse
These people can be criticised FOR THEIR ACTIONS OR LACK OF SAME, not the same at all as calling them traitors etc.
I have argued long and hard with @rikofold over VG as anyone reading CL will know but he is not a traitor, neither are the few fans still working for the club, neither was @BDL before he quit.
play the ball, not the man.
Katrien is and employee - so play the ball not the man? give it a rest! you are judged on actions, and if that action is helping the regime then you are tarred with that brush.
or are we saying Tony, katrien and Thomas are not immune because they are the man not the ball?
Glad you live in such a black and white world. For me there are a lot shades of gray where good people are forced into uncomfortable situations and try to influence from the inside while remaining on the side of angels.
Some cross the line like John Comberford who actively supports the regime and attacks protesters. Attack them by all means but don't assume that everyone who isn't as "radical" as you is a traitor. Not only are you totally wrong it just drives more and more people away from working with you.
The views on here are MY views nothing at all to do with being part of the Belgium20 Protest. Also i dont look for people to work with me, i help lay plans for protests and if people feel passionately about joining the planned protests then that's up to them.
I'm not starting a CULT
I alone call these people traitors - myself and @jamescafc just had a debate about this on whatsapp, both of us have connections to Belgium protests but we have our own views.
If people dont want to be part of protests in Belgium that i help plan because I'm so called "radical" then that's ridiculous, and you helping them make that decision biased on nonsense is part of the problem.
People can do what the hell they like, the Valley gold people included, but I'm entitled to my opinion and i dont feel the need to censor it to get brownie points from CL.
I will continue to target everyone who aligns with the club, valley gold are part of that and i would encourage others to distance there self's from this additional revenue for the regime. That's a personal recommendation, if the Belgium20 group want to release a statement then that's up to them nothing to do with me, likewise CARD or anyone else.
Probably got more to do with CARD than you've yet realised when you're throwing insults my way
I dont get it - none of my comments are directed at CARD. They are directed at VG and those associated? if you are part of CARD that has nothing to do with any of this?
If I'm missing something perhaps PM me to clarify. Are you saying that by criticizing peoples actions outwith CARD that reflects on CARD?
EDIT: also to add my "insults" aren't just at you it is at all of VG Team and membership.
"Many thanks for organising VG however enough is enough and I have cancelled my direct debit. My reasons for leaving are twofold, first I am completely disheartened by the way the current owner and his SMT are ruining our club and second that I hear that about £53,000 has recently been given to the club but none of it has been allocated to the women’s team which the club overtly supports but not in anyway financially, an example being that Gemma Shepherd, a leading goal scorer for the team, is having to publicly beg for money so as to fund a hip operation which should return her to full fitness."
her reply was
"I am in discussions at the moment with Stephen King about money for the ladies team so we will be giving them some and this will be published when the money is given. The money we have given was asked for by Steve Avory from the academy and not the club."
So VG will give money from the fans to the women's team but the club which promotes them on their web site will not.
Stephen King, is the CEO of the company that sponsor the women team shirt, along with being the women's team chairman.
Bollox gonna have to cancel now ... I can't stand doing admin Although this may be the third time I've threatened to leave the scheme but am too lazy to go through with it but the thought of any dough easing pressure on Mr 1.5%'s fat wallet means this time I'm gonna have to go through with it . Appreciate the work and words of rikofold
@rikofold I wasn't.calling you an idiot, and I appreciate all that you have done, not less than sitting through that bloody powerpoint meeting. It's just that probably the most divisive thing I can think of is now being talked about again. I don't in any way blame you for that.
In light of the debate earlier in the year maybe there was a need to have communicated the rationale behind the payments following the legal advise received. A preemptive "strike" as it were.
I really think it is probably time to draw a line under the contentious debate.
The challenge as to how the funds generated are paid are defined by the legislation under which the organisation was created. The officials are bound by due legal process. In the event they act outside of their responsibilities they will become personally liable.
SLFC comments in principle are entirely valid. They are the reason many valued supporters enter such fund raising schemes in the first place. It is telling that throughout its history our Valley Gold has never before been faced with such challenge.
In such a context I would argue there is a case for an extraordinary general meeting to reaffirm people's positive contribution to the organisation and the clear parameters under which it and the officials operate.
If there are those like SLFC who feel they wish to continue to contribute to the causes he has identified despite the operating focus of this executive then that is their prerogative.
The principles behind the scheme are as valid as the day it started. The principles however were to facilitate the development of young players to play for and contribute to the first team.
In light of the executive stated intents as per Dublin and its performance it is clear such principles are open to abuse. The planned exploitation of the goodwill involved by the deliberate positioning of a youth development pipeline for financial gain is not acceptable.
Such an approach needs to come under even greater scrutiny in the face of the accumulated trading debt of circa £50mn created by the profligate administration of the club by this executive.
Just how many Academy Scholars will get to make any material contribution to the first team squad before being sold to pay down the debt incurred by club mismanagement?
You can argue to the enforced sale of Academy players by previous regimes due to financial necessity but that is a matter of circumstances, not a planned financial business model. There is a difference.
A genuine question, the S&J administration aside, for all of their fine words what have this executive actually delivered to the academy which has added to the long established academy infrastructure.
They have been in control for 33 months but just where is the state of the art training ground and academy facility? Just exactly when will they be in a position to secure Category 1 status? When indeed did they last commit to a timeline to deliver to such an initiative?
The last indication I believe was 2018. On the current basis what do you believe the clubs operating debt will then be? At that point you have to question whether the whole process can but be viewed as being geared to merely paying down the Staprix debt.
Far be it for me to suggest that this indeed is/ was/ and always has been the executives long term plan.
Against that the provision of the right facilities and coaching to the youth of local community is in itself a worthy cause whether the Valley Gold initiative under its current legal parameters is the right vehicle has to be open to question.
A very sad state of affairs maybe the CACT could be encouraged to offer a more appropriate vehicle more worthy of supporters goodwill.
It is becoming very difficult to find any aspect of the club this executive has not tarnished
So am I right in thinking that despite having an owner worth almost a billion euros , the academy is still quite reliant on fans giving their hard earned.
So despite the club telling us how important the academy is to him and the club, the fans still have to foot the bill to the tune of £50,000?
I know Rikofold has no love for the regime, but his closeness means he will inevitably have a love for the scheme. I know I was proud to have contributed for many, many years with only a cheap coffee maker and a £25 Woolworths voucher to show for it (from the Sellout days). Of course it was never about winning anything, but helping the club I love.
I feel bad having left the scheme because it was important to me. I would imagine that pride needs to be multiplied by 100 for Rikofold. So nobody can lay any blame at his door for trying to protect a scheme he has put so much time and love into.
When I see a comment that Steve Avory requested the money I have to laugh. Like how does it work in this club. Does he bypass Katrien completely and goes to Valley Gold? It is the bullshit that those who are part of the scheme try to feed us that frustrates me. Keep what is left of it going by all means, but we shouldn't be fooled into thinking the money was ever truly going to be withheld and that decisions to fund part of the club are doneindependently of the club. Rikofold will say he has always been open - and I don't doubt that, but maybe the events of today could have been made a bit clearer and maybe it shouldn't be pretended that teh money is for Steve Avory and not the club. My plea will be to administer the scheme by all means, let members leave if they want to and don't give cryptic messages that might suggest that Valley Gold is about anything than putting money into the club (which effectively is tehe owner's pocket) and have something in place that can grow again when we get the enemy out.
So am I right in thinking that despite having an owner worth almost a billion euros , the academy is still quite reliant on fans giving their hard earned.
So despite the club telling us how important the academy is to him and the club, the fans still have to foot the bill to the tune of £50,000?
Wow
And one of our women footballers has to raise funds to pay for her own hip operation.
I'm with @oohaahmortimer on VG. Need to cancel but hate admin so please don't anyone shout at me on the odd chance that my number comes up in near future.
Thx to @rikofold for considerable efforts under v difficult circumstances. If only he put similar time and effort into CARD, eh? ;-)
Always find it fascinating who craves attention for their hard work and who doesn't. Rikofold certainly does not.
So am I right in thinking that despite having an owner worth almost a billion euros , the academy is still quite reliant on fans giving their hard earned.
So despite the club telling us how important the academy is to him and the club, the fans still have to foot the bill to the tune of £50,000?
Wow
Don't forget that ex VIPs were told that their cash wasn't required any longer.....
All sounds rather confusing to me.
But why should I be surprised when these clowns ae involved.
Just another classic example of how we shoot ourselves in the foot again.
Sometimes i just despair - and i can understand Rikofolds stance (to a degree, but maybe it should have been made clear earlier that legally the money was to go to Charlton ...maybe it was?) - however i can also understand C4FC4l1F3's frustration and fury in what has happened - must admit, i dont know all the details, but it all feels very wrong to me that we're giving a substantial amount of money to the club - as CAFC4L1f3 says, why boycott season tickets when we just give it back to them elsewhere. However, each are entitled to their views, and patronising comments are not needed nor wanted from people who seem to revel in doing so, coz then it just turns into a personal keyboard warrior battle- which gives credit to noone but shows to the people who monitor this forum the split within the supporter base.
So as I understand it legislation for the fund dictates the money collected must be handed over. Does it state what percentage and how regularly?
I am a huge fan of VG and would be very disappointed if I had to pull out. My grandfather was a member since it started and I took over the membership when he died. I get 10x more pleasure seeing the likes of Fox, Solly and Cousins play than many of the more glamorous players we've signed from overseas, but it doesn't sit well with me that we are helping fund the academy for Roland when we know his main aim is to sell them on to the highest bidder asap.
I would have hoped members were given the opportunity to approve the monies handed over this month but appreciate this may not have been an option. Will be interested to know when the next payment is due to the club and whether there is any intention to delay payment again as this will influence my decision to remain or quit.
My advice to those thinking about renewing now would be that if you are firmly of the view that you don't want a penny of your hard earned going to the club then don't renew now. You can always join again in a month, six months or a years time.
If you renew now then it seems to me there is a distinct possibility that a payment will be made to the club. Nobody is actually saying it won't. If you're fine with that then go for it. If you're not then don't.
Comments
The legal question isn't benefit actually, but the basis of the scheme is that the academy (not the club) is the primary object and whilst that continues to be the academy that's where our financial support goes.
One question we raised was whether Katrien's comments indicated a different definition of academy, but the reality is that her comments addressed what happens after the academy has developed players, and that's not within our scope.
Really think you are biting the wrong backside here, VG members whether paid up or board reps aren't the enemy here, far from it
On the face of it this announcement, was timed to cause a potential rift between people who they see as big players in CARD and also to irritate the likes of people like me who they see as sheep into thinking, ”well, what the point of me protesting, if we as supporters are still handing over big money to the club”
The rights and wrongs of VG have been done to the death.
Stay strong people.
We will be rid of the idiots one day, although they have played this one quite well.
If I'm missing something perhaps PM me to clarify. Are you saying that by criticizing peoples actions outwith CARD that reflects on CARD?
EDIT: also to add my "insults" aren't just at you it is at all of VG Team and membership.
If I was involved with CARD, will I be thrown out for my treachery?
But no you just dont get it. Ever thought of a career in the US police?
Well, if I was him, I'd make a Stand.
I protest hard against the regime but i also support a cause that takes cash from fans and hands it over to the regime I'm protesting against!!
What!
That's like the protest fund being given to the club to police the protests.
Why not tell people months ago that this was going to happen outright? you knew the cash would go to the regime.
Steve Avory can't ask for money that does not exist.
Although this may be the third time I've threatened to leave the scheme but am too lazy to go through with it but the thought of any dough easing pressure on Mr 1.5%'s fat wallet means this time I'm gonna have to go through with it .
Appreciate the work and words of rikofold
Appreciate that costs have been outlined but how is this going to be checked?
Is there a timescale for when these purchases will happen? Or are they relating to already paid for items (pre season, hotels etc)?
As far as I'm aware the academy is not a separate entity so I assume the £50k will be going straight in the club's bank account?
Is there anything stopping the SMT delaying purchasing the items outlined or are we (you) just taking their word...?
In light of the debate earlier in the year maybe there was a need to have communicated the rationale behind the payments following the legal advise received. A preemptive "strike" as it were.
I really think it is probably time to draw a line under the contentious debate.
The challenge as to how the funds generated are paid are defined by the legislation under which the organisation was created. The officials are bound by due legal process. In the event they act outside of their responsibilities they will become personally liable.
SLFC comments in principle are entirely valid. They are the reason many valued supporters enter such fund raising schemes in the first place. It is telling that throughout its history our Valley Gold has never before been faced with such challenge.
In such a context I would argue there is a case for an extraordinary general meeting to reaffirm people's positive contribution to the organisation and the clear parameters under which it and the officials operate.
If there are those like SLFC who feel they wish to continue to contribute to the causes he has identified despite the operating focus of this executive then that is their prerogative.
The principles behind the scheme are as valid as the day it started. The principles however were to facilitate the development of young players to play for and contribute to the first team.
In light of the executive stated intents as per Dublin and its performance it is clear such principles are open to abuse. The planned exploitation of the goodwill involved by the deliberate positioning of a youth development pipeline for financial gain is not acceptable.
Such an approach needs to come under even greater scrutiny in the face of the accumulated trading debt of circa £50mn created by the profligate administration of the club by this executive.
Just how many Academy Scholars will get to make any material contribution to the first team squad before being sold to pay down the debt incurred by club mismanagement?
You can argue to the enforced sale of Academy players by previous regimes due to financial necessity but that is a matter of circumstances, not a planned financial business model. There is a difference.
A genuine question, the S&J administration aside, for all of their fine words what have this executive actually delivered to the academy which has added to the long established academy infrastructure.
They have been in control for 33 months but just where is the state of the art training ground and academy facility? Just exactly when will they be in a position to secure Category 1 status? When indeed did they last commit to a timeline to deliver to such an initiative?
The last indication I believe was 2018. On the current basis what do you believe the clubs operating debt will then be? At that point you have to question whether the whole process can but be viewed as being geared to merely paying down the Staprix debt.
Far be it for me to suggest that this indeed is/ was/ and always has been the executives long term plan.
Against that the provision of the right facilities and coaching to the youth of local community is in itself a worthy cause whether the Valley Gold initiative under its current legal parameters is the right vehicle has to be open to question.
A very sad state of affairs maybe the CACT could be encouraged to offer a more appropriate vehicle more worthy of supporters goodwill.
It is becoming very difficult to find any aspect of the club this executive has not tarnished
So despite the club telling us how important the academy is to him and the club, the fans still have to foot the bill to the tune of £50,000?
Wow
I feel bad having left the scheme because it was important to me. I would imagine that pride needs to be multiplied by 100 for Rikofold. So nobody can lay any blame at his door for trying to protect a scheme he has put so much time and love into.
When I see a comment that Steve Avory requested the money I have to laugh. Like how does it work in this club. Does he bypass Katrien completely and goes to Valley Gold? It is the bullshit that those who are part of the scheme try to feed us that frustrates me. Keep what is left of it going by all means, but we shouldn't be fooled into thinking the money was ever truly going to be withheld and that decisions to fund part of the club are doneindependently of the club. Rikofold will say he has always been open - and I don't doubt that, but maybe the events of today could have been made a bit clearer and maybe it shouldn't be pretended that teh money is for Steve Avory and not the club. My plea will be to administer the scheme by all means, let members leave if they want to and don't give cryptic messages that might suggest that Valley Gold is about anything than putting money into the club (which effectively is tehe owner's pocket) and have something in place that can grow again when we get the enemy out.
I'm with @oohaahmortimer on VG. Need to cancel but hate admin so please don't anyone shout at me on the odd chance that my number comes up in near future.
Thx to @rikofold for considerable efforts under v difficult circumstances. If only he put similar time and effort into CARD, eh? ;-)
Always find it fascinating who craves attention for their hard work and who doesn't. Rikofold certainly does not.
All sounds rather confusing to me.
But why should I be surprised when these clowns ae involved.
Sometimes i just despair - and i can understand Rikofolds stance (to a degree, but maybe it should have been made clear earlier that legally the money was to go to Charlton ...maybe it was?) - however i can also understand C4FC4l1F3's frustration and fury in what has happened - must admit, i dont know all the details, but it all feels very wrong to me that we're giving a substantial amount of money to the club - as CAFC4L1f3 says, why boycott season tickets when we just give it back to them elsewhere.
However, each are entitled to their views, and patronising comments are not needed nor wanted from people who seem to revel in doing so, coz then it just turns into a personal keyboard warrior battle- which gives credit to noone but shows to the people who monitor this forum the split within the supporter base.
I am a huge fan of VG and would be very disappointed if I had to pull out. My grandfather was a member since it started and I took over the membership when he died. I get 10x more pleasure seeing the likes of Fox, Solly and Cousins play than many of the more glamorous players we've signed from overseas, but it doesn't sit well with me that we are helping fund the academy for Roland when we know his main aim is to sell them on to the highest bidder asap.
I would have hoped members were given the opportunity to approve the monies handed over this month but appreciate this may not have been an option. Will be interested to know when the next payment is due to the club and whether there is any intention to delay payment again as this will influence my decision to remain or quit.