Wrote a really long post on the ridiculousness of this side-issuing, but ultimately what is the point other than extending the pathetic debate.
All I'll say for the benefit of @bobmunro@cafc999 and others is I am a trust member and I'm happy for them to represent me as a member, as do currently about a thousand other fans. If I didn't I'd cancel forthwith. It's a shame that another 5,000 fans don't see the benefit in parting with a paltry fiver as the stronger the 'union', the more potential weight it carries for it's members, which ultimately is the supporters of Charlton Athletic. I don't want to be involved in any way but I do want them to be accountable, taking a stance that is imo the right one they should be taking for CAFC fans, or if not, I want to understand why. Which is why I went along to their AGM and put my hand up on numerous occasions to ask the Board questions or give my view as a member. As did many others there.
There was zero skull duggery in play, and I'm personally very pleased with the approach taken in recent weeks by the Trust, which is to survey members and non-members for views to see the strength of feeling in terms of protest, help co-ordinate approach with all other supporter groups for the famous meeting which, although didn't go as planned, appeared to have a great deal of supporter collaboration going into it that hasn't been there for years, and now further dialogue for with the club which hasn't been possible before.
The outcome of all this has been a signing has been made to the squad, talk of another is imminent, the extent of fans feelings have been clearly shown, and promises of better engagement between club and supporters have been made.
May only be small wins, and may not address most of our issues or make us feel better about all things Charlton,(certainly not mine), but for what that group can realistically achieve I believe they are going in the right direction with it and don't deserve in any way some of the criticism, and attempts to discredit that have been emerging in the last few weeks. Particularly from those they don't even represent.
Let's hope a line can be drawn, people can see the ridiculousness of it all, for everyone's sake.
So I deleted my long post only to end up typing out another long post, great!
I think that calls for a small celebration, I'm off to the co-op to get some ales..
Wrote a really long post on the ridiculousness of this side-issuing, but ultimately what is the point other than extending the pathetic debate.
All I'll say for the benefit of @bobmunro@cafc999 and others is I am a trust member and I'm happy for them to represent me as a member, as do currently about a thousand other fans. If I didn't I'd cancel forthwith. It's a shame that another 5,000 fans don't see the benefit in parting with a paltry fiver as the stronger the 'union', the more potential weight it carries for it's members, which ultimately is the supporters of Charlton Athletic. I don't want to be involved in any way but I do want them to be accountable, taking a stance that is imo the right one they should be taking for CAFC fans, or if not, I want to understand why. Which is why I went along to their AGM and put my hand up on numerous occasions to ask the Board questions or give my view as a member. As did many others there.
There was zero skull duggery in play, and I'm personally very pleased with the approach taken in recent weeks by the Trust, which is to survey members and non-members for views to see the strength of feeling in terms of protest, help co-ordinate approach with all other supporter groups for the famous meeting which, although didn't go as planned, appeared to have a great deal of supporter collaboration going into it that hasn't been there for years, and now further dialogue for with the club which hasn't been possible before.
The outcome of all this has been a signing has been made to the squad, talk of another is imminent, the extent of fans feelings have been clearly shown, and promises of better engagement between club and supporters have been made.
May only be small wins, and may not address most of our issues or make us feel better about all things Charlton,(certainly not mine), but for what that group can realistically achieve I believe they are going in the right direction with it and don't deserve in any way some of the criticism, and attempts to discredit that have been emerging in the last few weeks. Particularly from those they don't even represent.
Let's hope a line can be drawn, people can see the ridiculousness of it all, for everyone's sake.
So I deleted my long post only to end up typing out another long post, great!
@AFKABartram, my original point was that wouldn't it have been nice for the trust to be a bit more open about the meeting to there members.
At no stage have I dismissed the trust or accused it of any form of skull duggery (I think you may be hinting that I was, apologies to you if I have misread it).
If you, or anyone else for that matter is satisfied that the trust represents them, then great but it should be equally as great if people don't, which was the point that I was trying to get across (Equality)
@AFKABartram much, much appreciated. Just to say in fairness to @bobmunro that he did graciously record that I'd clarified things for him with my post earlier, possibly you missed that.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
As whilst I support the idea of more dialogue(got my vote on all surveys), my main concern is not about increasing our crowds or the ticketing policy, it is that from watching the recent meeting Q&A video and reading recent releases from the club that my worst fear seems to be true, that the regimes plan is to turn our first team into the highest tier of the Staprix academy, where we will see nothing but our youth players(no matter if they are ready or not) & European young players, who's signing is assessed not on what they can bring to a Championship team right now but on their potential re-sale value when one of the serious clubs comes sniffing around.
Sure they will throw a short term contract at a few more experienced players each season(Eagles, Johnson & Vaz Te) to appease fans and dig us out of a relegation scrap season after season but we will never see a Ma........Head Coach given chance to build his team for the long term better of the club we all love.
That is a very troubling thought personally that has made me truly for the first time in my 21 years as a fan question my desire to attend any Charlton games.
I am sure my views and worries, like others can be dismissed by some as purely about current results but I would suggest not, as even those of my generation have seen weaker days on the pitch then now, I never questioned my interest or desire to watch my club when on a regular basis I found myself enthusiastic about making a long trip to see the Addicks with the likes of Pawel Abbot, Therry Racon & Gary Doherty in the squad, take on teams who in my younger days I thought I would never get to other then an away draw in the FA Cup 3rd round.
I see a dilemma, all be it that I'm not interested in making any recommendations.
If the club have agreed to meet with the Trust, which was, in a nut shell, what we (the Trust and, apparently, most fans) were protesting to achieve, does that not question the fans integrity should they not call off the protests?
Should the fans not, as an act of faith, stop all protests until a period of discussion between the Trust and the club has been allowed to mature?
As the club has a 'reputation' of not being totally honest to us - let's face it many fans believe the club has lied - should we not carry on protesting until we see more than a little evidence of a change in attitude?
I do wonder how long this dialogue needs to carry on and with what success it should be judged before the fans 'stand down'.
Also (and I'm going to avoid being controversial) if the club were giving the impression that they were going to meet with the Trust (and for the sake of this post I'm going to assume that it was all above board an none of this was kept as a secret) should the Trust not have behaved in the way it looks like they did - i.e. not giving KM or RM that much of a hard time at the Q&A?
I'm, cautiously, optimistic that this is a step in the right direction but, despite not doubting the intelligence of some of the Trust Board, I have this nagging feeling that nothing will change in the way that we want it to, except that the club might take some of the steam out of our anger while the new coach, or the next one, or the next one lucks into a good enough run of results that many of us lose interest in fighting.
How can we stand down as "an act of faith" when thousands have no faith in the Belgians any more.
Why didn't the trust tell any of there members about this meeting before attending it?
Why do you feel they have to? I'm a member and I'm happy to receive information after a meeting, it makes no difference to me that I didn't know there was a meeting scheduled.
The trust say that they are the voice of the Fans. If they do not ask the fans for there views how can they be the voice..??
All it would have taken was a note to all members stating that a meeting was planned with the club. As this was the initial aim of the trust, you would have thought that they would have had the decency to show respect to there members and make the announcement.
What may be acceptable to you may not be to other members.
They represent a section of the fans, i.e, their members. Whilst they do canvass views of non-members too, ultimately it's their members they are accountable to.
And of course, you are correct, other members may not feel the same as me and if they don't agree with their actions, in my opinion, they should contact the Trust directly, and not call them out here, on a public forum.
I hope that last comment is not aimed at me as my point is a fair question on an open public forum created for debate.
The point I was making is that this is not the place for members to take up any issues they may have with the Trust, it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
As whilst I support the idea of more dialogue(got my vote on all surveys), my main concern is not about increasing our crowds or the ticketing policy, it is that from watching the recent meeting Q&A video and reading recent releases from the club that my worst fear seems to be true, that the regimes plan is to turn our first team into the highest tier of the Staprix academy, where we will see nothing but our youth players(no matter if they are ready or not) & European young players, who's signing is assessed not on what they can bring to a Championship team right now but on their potential re-sale value when one of the serious clubs comes sniffing around.
Sure they will throw a short term contract at a few more experienced players each season(Eagles, Johnson & Vaz Te) to appease fans and dig us out of a relegation scrap season after season but we will never see a Ma........Head Coach given chance to build his team for the long term better of the club we all love.
That is a very troubling thought personally that has made me truly for the first time in my 21 years as a fan question my desire to attend any Charlton games.
I am sure my views and worries, like others can be dismissed by some as purely about current results but I would suggest not, as even those of my generation have seen weaker days on the pitch then now, I never questioned my interest or desire to watch my club when on a regular basis I found myself enthusiastic about making a long trip to see the Addicks with the likes of Pawel Abbot, Therry Racon & Gary Doherty in the squad, take on teams who in my younger days I thought I would never get to other then an away draw in the FA Cup 3rd round.
Great post. This echoes how I feel for the most part.
The dialogue should now continue, which is as it should be ... first aim achieved.
But 'black and white' and '2%' must also continue, especially with a televised game coming up.
It would be a mistake to allow KM and RD to believe that one Q&A session is enough to appease the ill-feeling against the way the club has been run in recent times. We appreciate the positive investments but do not yet believe in their long-term plan.
Has anyone actually told them if they brought enough decent players and a decent manager and worked on making the club successful on the pitch then all their target 20000, their hospitality, and other crap they are trying to get us to buy into will actually be a success then and not before.
Nutshell.
Lets ask the bloke who's already done the best part of £50M (YES 50 MILLION POUNDS)! to see if he can dig a bit deeper and stick another 50 mill in just so that other people and fans who don't give a shit about us can't laugh at us! Get a life you moaning minnies and stick your own money in. As fir you lot moaning about whether the meeting was arranged befire or after such and such a time, you do my nut in, here's 10p to call someone who gives a shit! FFS SORT YOURSELVES OUT!
£50m but he forgot to buy a squad, pretty pointless when you buy a football club isn't it.
Has anyone actually told them if they brought enough decent players and a decent manager and worked on making the club successful on the pitch then all their target 20000, their hospitality, and other crap they are trying to get us to buy into will actually be a success then and not before.
Nutshell.
Lets ask the bloke who's already done the best part of £50M (YES 50 MILLION POUNDS)! to see if he can dig a bit deeper and stick another 50 mill in just so that other people and fans who don't give a shit about us can't laugh at us! Get a life you moaning minnies and stick your own money in. As fir you lot moaning about whether the meeting was arranged befire or after such and such a time, you do my nut in, here's 10p to call someone who gives a shit! FFS SORT YOURSELVES OUT!
£50m but he forgot to buy a squad, pretty pointless when you buy a football club isn't it.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
That is absolutely our objective but we have no idea at this stage to what extent we will achieve it and how quickly. We simply believe that the best way to get a better understanding of his plan - or the plan of any future owner - is to try and engage him in dialogue. We won't suddenly get some big revelation that allows us to say to everyone "we get it, this is the plan". We hope that bit by bit we will get some better understanding that will add to what we (all of us ) already know, which is, basically how the team is performing, how many fans are coming to watch, and whether they are enjoying the experience generally. But we are not claiming some big breakthrough. Simply a small step forward. And we hope that KM and others will communicate more widely through other channels too, so that we can all share and compare what we have learnt. That may all sound a bit wishy washy, but its the best I can offer. Maybe some of the others will add more.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
That is absolutely our objective but we have no idea at this stage to what extent we will achieve it and how quickly. We simply believe that the best way to get a better understanding of his plan - or the plan of any future owner - is to try and engage him in dialogue. We won't suddenly get some big revelation that allows us to say to everyone "we get it, this is the plan". We hope that bit by bit we will get some better understanding that will add to what we (all of us ) already know, which is, basically how the team is performing, how many fans are coming to watch, and whether they are enjoying the experience generally. But we are not claiming some big breakthrough. Simply a small step forward. And we hope that KM and others will communicate more widely through other channels too, so that we can all share and compare what we have learnt. That may all sound a bit wishy washy, but its the best I can offer. Maybe some of the others will add more.
I appreciate the response, I am glad to hear the trust will be at the very least attempting these sort of discussion subjects.
Why didn't the trust tell any of there members about this meeting before attending it?
Why do you feel they have to? I'm a member and I'm happy to receive information after a meeting, it makes no difference to me that I didn't know there was a meeting scheduled.
Me too.
What I'm not happy about is that the Trust went out of their way to emphatically deny any such meeting was to take place or indeed, even in the pipeline.
Why would they do that? What did they hope to achieve by denying it? Who told them to keep it hush hush? And most importantly, if it was agreed to be confidential, why did three separate people let Henry know?
I'm sure KM has noted that last point.
Perhaps more alarmingly... did the Trust fear that an over-zealous approach to the Fans Meeting would jeopardise this meeting ever being arranged?
I can't see how it would have been anything other than impossible to not have this in the back of their mind when questioning and challenging answers.
Given the role the Trust played in developing the themes of questions with other Fans Representatives... the neutrality of the Fans Meeting should be questioned.
As supporters, trust members or both there should be clear answers on this.
If I was thinner skinned I'd take offence at this. The fans' meeting was prepared and agreed by all the fans' groups, who canvassed the supporters they represented. The output was a product of the work of all of us. All expressed their backing for the approach on the night.
For example I argued against including the CADSA question, not because it was unimportant but I felt it would be a distraction on the night, but the consensus was to include it, so it was included.
I know we like conspiracy theories but I operate collaboratively by nature.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
That is absolutely our objective but we have no idea at this stage to what extent we will achieve it and how quickly. We simply believe that the best way to get a better understanding of his plan - or the plan of any future owner - is to try and engage him in dialogue. We won't suddenly get some big revelation that allows us to say to everyone "we get it, this is the plan". We hope that bit by bit we will get some better understanding that will add to what we (all of us ) already know, which is, basically how the team is performing, how many fans are coming to watch, and whether they are enjoying the experience generally. But we are not claiming some big breakthrough. Simply a small step forward. And we hope that KM and others will communicate more widely through other channels too, so that we can all share and compare what we have learnt. That may all sound a bit wishy washy, but its the best I can offer. Maybe some of the others will add more.
It's probably worth adding that this isn't all about the Trust. We're in a position to take a lead and have worked hard to get here but there are plenty of talented non Trust people who could and should make their contribution too. I was encouraged that Km said she'd been talking across the spectrum of fans.
I don't believe anything is off the table, because one thing we all share is the improvement of Charlton Athletic. We've disagreed on the hows, so it's very encouraging that KM is prepared to engage with fans to improve them.
That said, how influential we can be, especially on the football side, remains to be seen. I think though that we should take the type of new signing we seem to be making right now as tacit acknowledgement that the direction hasn't been quite right. If we lay down or cynicism and take it at face value we should find encouragement. RM will have value on the football side too.
Gimmicks at a football club do not work. You increase the crowds by winning games and being successful. RD and KM do not know how to create a successful team ( or they do know but do not want one) appoint a experienced manager with a proven record of success in English football. Do not lumber CAFC with no hopers ( both managers and players) from RDs workforce. Sign decent players that can compete at Championship level. There you go KM and RD , I have solved it for you.
Question for any trust board member, from a trust member, is there any chance the ongoing dialogue you hope to have with the club will involve the overall football business plan that RD is implementing at our club.
That is absolutely our objective but we have no idea at this stage to what extent we will achieve it and how quickly. We simply believe that the best way to get a better understanding of his plan - or the plan of any future owner - is to try and engage him in dialogue. We won't suddenly get some big revelation that allows us to say to everyone "we get it, this is the plan". We hope that bit by bit we will get some better understanding that will add to what we (all of us ) already know, which is, basically how the team is performing, how many fans are coming to watch, and whether they are enjoying the experience generally. But we are not claiming some big breakthrough. Simply a small step forward. And we hope that KM and others will communicate more widely through other channels too, so that we can all share and compare what we have learnt. That may all sound a bit wishy washy, but its the best I can offer. Maybe some of the others will add more.
It's probably worth adding that this isn't all about the Trust. We're in a position to take a lead and have worked hard to get here but there are plenty of talented non Trust people who could and should make their contribution too. I was encouraged that Km said she'd been talking across the spectrum of fans.
I don't believe anything is off the table, because one thing we all share is the improvement of Charlton Athletic. We've disagreed on the hows, so it's very encouraging that KM is prepared to engage with fans to improve them.
That said, how influential we can be, especially on the football side, remains to be seen. I think though that we should take the type of new signing we seem to be making right now as tacit acknowledgement that the direction hasn't been quite right. If we lay down or cynicism and take it at face value we should find encouragement. RM will have value on the football side too.
However, this has been her number one tactic to bat away any real discussion since the beginning - "I must talk to everyone". The reality is that "everyone" does not want to talk to her and her latest statement identifying the need to engage with what might be described as "under-represented minorities" is another example. The point is to talk to the people who will add the most value to what you are doing, not as many people as possible - that is most likely to be the trust because unlike most of the others it is established to be a representative group rather than a social or travel organisation. While Syd may be a special case, his intervention at the meeting is a good example of inclusion being counterproductive in this context, because it will always lead to diversion into parochial concerns.
Glad there is dialogue with the Trust but can't help but be cynical and feel they are being sucked in rather that trying to sort the problems that are causing disillusionment and apathy with supporters.
The idea that the fans, the Trust or anyone else is supposed to sort out the problems is sheer nonsense.
Management has to sort out the problems, if we don't have an avenue of dialogue how can fans have any influence in management decisions.
Im glad we have people who are trying to achieve something.
Those who get more satisfaction from protesting and seeing the club fail than positive action designed to help save the club, should take a hard look at themselves. They are the ones interested in personal gratification, not Trust members.
Let us not forget the reality that none of our supporters, or supporters groups have any money. There is a bottom line here, and unless any of us can front up, the choices seem to be give up, put up, protest or persuade. The reality is that the trust is the most representative fans group out there, even though it's membership is a minority of all fans, and the mandate is to talk, hopefully to persuade.
1. Target 20K is a good initiative. Even if fans do not like the board, more fans in the stadium is a GOOD thing. Better atmosphere, more cash which may mean more players, more likely as a club to appeal to a new investor. We are the club. RD/KM are just passing through. No need to cut of noses to spite faces etc. I am not sure how it can succeed but that does not mean it should not be attempted.
2. Well done to the Trust for achieving it's stated aim of communication and getting the meeting. I am doubtful of impact but this is a definite step in the right direction
3. Despite, what I feel the positives are above, I hope the protests continue and will be delighted when KM moves on to a new business she can destroy.
4. This thread shows the very worst of CL in places. Good news about some fan involvement hijacked by 100's of posts about exactly what time the meeting was confirmed and strange personal agenda's. KM = divide and conquer! people need to realise this and pull together.
Comments
At no stage have I dismissed the trust or accused it of any form of skull duggery (I think you may be hinting that I was, apologies to you if I have misread it).
If you, or anyone else for that matter is satisfied that the trust represents them, then great but it should be equally as great if people don't, which was the point that I was trying to get across (Equality)
This post is now going nowhere, I'm out
As whilst I support the idea of more dialogue(got my vote on all surveys), my main concern is not about increasing our crowds or the ticketing policy, it is that from watching the recent meeting Q&A video and reading recent releases from the club that my worst fear seems to be true, that the regimes plan is to turn our first team into the highest tier of the Staprix academy, where we will see nothing but our youth players(no matter if they are ready or not) & European young players, who's signing is assessed not on what they can bring to a Championship team right now but on their potential re-sale value when one of the serious clubs comes sniffing around.
Sure they will throw a short term contract at a few more experienced players each season(Eagles, Johnson & Vaz Te) to appease fans and dig us out of a relegation scrap season after season but we will never see a Ma........Head Coach given chance to build his team for the long term better of the club we all love.
That is a very troubling thought personally that has made me truly for the first time in my 21 years as a fan question my desire to attend any Charlton games.
I am sure my views and worries, like others can be dismissed by some as purely about current results but I would suggest not, as even those of my generation have seen weaker days on the pitch then now, I never questioned my interest or desire to watch my club when on a regular basis I found myself enthusiastic about making a long trip to see the Addicks with the likes of Pawel Abbot, Therry Racon & Gary Doherty in the squad, take on teams who in my younger days I thought I would never get to other then an away draw in the FA Cup 3rd round.
But 'black and white' and '2%' must also continue, especially with a televised game coming up.
It would be a mistake to allow KM and RD to believe that one Q&A session is enough to appease the ill-feeling against the way the club has been run in recent times. We appreciate the positive investments but do not yet believe in their long-term plan.
For example I argued against including the CADSA question, not because it was unimportant but I felt it would be a distraction on the night, but the consensus was to include it, so it was included.
I know we like conspiracy theories but I operate collaboratively by nature.
I don't believe anything is off the table, because one thing we all share is the improvement of Charlton Athletic. We've disagreed on the hows, so it's very encouraging that KM is prepared to engage with fans to improve them.
That said, how influential we can be, especially on the football side, remains to be seen. I think though that we should take the type of new signing we seem to be making right now as tacit acknowledgement that the direction hasn't been quite right. If we lay down or cynicism and take it at face value we should find encouragement. RM will have value on the football side too.
RD and KM do not know how to create a successful team ( or they do know but do not want one) appoint a experienced manager with a proven record of success in English football. Do not lumber CAFC with no hopers ( both managers and players) from RDs workforce. Sign decent players that can compete at Championship level.
There you go KM and RD , I have solved it for you.
Have we got a proper manager yet- no
Do we have evidence the team will not be RDs experiment into football- no
Same old, same old.
Beyond parody.
Genuine question.
Not sure but the first average season over 20k was 2001 and before that.........1958
It must have been six or seven years after the return before The Valley in its all seater guise could accommodate 20,000.
Glad there is dialogue with the Trust but can't help but be cynical and feel they are being sucked in rather that trying to sort the problems that are causing disillusionment and apathy with supporters.
The idea that the fans, the Trust or anyone else is supposed to sort out the problems is sheer nonsense.
Management has to sort out the problems, if we don't have an avenue of dialogue how can fans have any influence in management decisions.
Im glad we have people who are trying to achieve something.
Those who get more satisfaction from protesting and seeing the club fail than positive action designed to help save the club, should take a hard look at themselves. They are the ones interested in personal gratification, not Trust members.
There is a bottom line here, and unless any of us can front up, the choices seem to be give up, put up, protest or persuade.
The reality is that the trust is the most representative fans group out there, even though it's membership is a minority of all fans, and the mandate is to talk, hopefully to persuade.
2. Well done to the Trust for achieving it's stated aim of communication and getting the meeting. I am doubtful of impact but this is a definite step in the right direction
3. Despite, what I feel the positives are above, I hope the protests continue and will be delighted when KM moves on to a new business she can destroy.
4. This thread shows the very worst of CL in places. Good news about some fan involvement hijacked by 100's of posts about exactly what time the meeting was confirmed and strange personal agenda's. KM = divide and conquer! people need to realise this and pull together.