There has been a meeting (which I didn't attend as I was busy elsewhere) and tbh I'm glad I didn't. Minutes have been released to the group members and they should have been released on the official site the same day. Surprise surprise they haven't.
In all honesty, it is a pointless exercise (which we suspected anyway) and the minutes don't tell us anything. I'm not going to share them on here (for same reason Rich P is giving about the Valley Gold statement).
As the "Supporter Clubs Rep", which in itself is embarrassing as in no way did I request nor want to be seen as representing all members of all Supporters' Clubs, I am withdrawing from the Target 20k group due to my disgust and dismay at the actions of the board especially since the turn of the year. The final straw for me personally was the Hudds game however have been thinking about withdrawing ever since the Web summit video.
I hope you can understand why I won't share the minutes. As for videoing it, I literally have no idea but I'm going to assume no video was made. There are further meetings planned but I will not be a part of them.
Well done @bellz2002 - you have seen first hand how poor the regime is despite how much spin they put on things
I was at the meeting that took place, didn't post any update sooner really as since then we had the Varney emails, the KM web video, the Valley Gold funding issue, the protests, bad results on the pitch, a change of manager all in all a busy few weeks of discussion on here and I didn't want this to be added to a list of things to go after.
The meeting itself was really little more than a getting to know you session from all involved, what kind of time we arrive, where we go pre-match, post-match, how we travel etc as a way of trying to understand the supporters matchday experience.
As posted above, the minutes were shared with the group but i'm not going to share them either as one of the items to be discussed was actually how to best share future items to be discussed at meetings, some of which must remain confidential though some things will be shared athough how these things will be shared is yet to be established and would be better to come from an official Target 20k communication rather than myself or anybody else who was in attendance.
The meeting was not filmed and I wouldn't expect any future ones to be filmed either due to confidential information being discussed and possibly why the minutes aren't on the OS either.
I had a few concerns with the format of the meeting which I am hoping will be addressed at the next meeting and am prepared to accept it was only the first meeting so there is room for improvement which may take a while to address. I took some of the best contributions from this thread in with me and will continue to do so in future so long as the format of the meeting allows for these kind of contributions which I am hoping it will.
In regards to my own views of the regime I can't say i'm happy at everything going on at the club either but the meeting wasn't dictated by KM there were some very knowledgeable club staff there in addition to the other fans who attended who were very engaged and certainly there's potential for some good to come from this so i'll be sticking around but for how long really will depend on how productive I feel future meetings go and whether feasible ideas are listened to and implemented.
There has been a meeting (which I didn't attend as I was busy elsewhere) and tbh I'm glad I didn't. Minutes have been released to the group members and they should have been released on the official site the same day. Surprise surprise they haven't.
In all honesty, it is a pointless exercise (which we suspected anyway) and the minutes don't tell us anything. I'm not going to share them on here (for same reason Rich P is giving about the Valley Gold statement).
As the "Supporter Clubs Rep", which in itself is embarrassing as in no way did I request nor want to be seen as representing all members of all Supporters' Clubs, I am withdrawing from the Target 20k group due to my disgust and dismay at the actions of the board especially since the turn of the year. The final straw for me personally was the Hudds game however have been thinking about withdrawing ever since the Web summit video.
I hope you can understand why I won't share the minutes. As for videoing it, I literally have no idea but I'm going to assume no video was made. There are further meetings planned but I will not be a part of them.
There is no reason why you can't share the minutes.
We will also have a Facebook page ready to be published by the Bristol City game - details will follow. We will be looking to publish ideas and discussion points from recent meetings with the club with yourselves able to add your views on those ideas although we are unable to share confidential information discussed at meetings with the club.
Please note this has all been done by the fans who have attended the Target 20k meetings so far, we are all moderating these accounts ourselves and not the club.
Are you serious ? The problem we are facing now is that the best way to get rid of Roland is to fail, and none of us want failure. Good luck to CARD, but we have quite a dilemma.
Good luck indeed, Martin & trust you'll update us on here after any subsequent meetings.
However, although I was never a member of a Target XX group, my feelings are that there will be very few avenues not already explored over past seasons regarding increasing attendances at The Valley.
IMHO, it's a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel and any staff that have been in situ for longer than the RD years will be all too aware of this. Time after time, we have been asked at FF meetings to assist with this issue and to put forward any new suggestions....and I believe we now have a dedicated member of staff whose role it is to work on this dilemma.
The way that the cookie is crumbling at this moment in time, it will take something very special to encourage new fans to the ground and more so, to bring back disillusioned fans/season ticket holders.
Part of the reason for no shows is the product as seen on the pitch & for 2 years, it's been clear why many customers have rebelled. An upturn in performances & results would certainly help.
However, the current situation off the pitch and the tenure of RD/KM in general has deteriorated of late as you are aware and a large number of existing and potential season ticket holders have taken the stance that they will not return until said regime has left the building.
Personally, I think in the current climate that the T20,000 initiative is a dead duck ...
But I guess that KM will say "We tried to work with the fans ..."
Am I overly cynical in thinking that KM, who clearly could not give a toss about fans, wants their involvement in this simply so she has someone to blame when it fails, as it surely will given that the product she is serving up is cold and unappetising (she's hooked me with her bloody restaurant analogy)
Good luck Martin. I'm sure there are new initiatives or old ones that may be more effective in this digitally connected age than were around in the good old days of target 40k
May I suggest that to get a high attendance the best way (seeing as how the football 'journey' is pretty dire) is to reduce prices drastically. Highest ST prices anywhere £250, and lowest (kids/concessions) £50. That might help to retain fans, don't know about adding any extra ones though.
Good luck indeed, Martin & trust you'll update us on here after any subsequent meetings.
However, although I was never a member of a Target XX group, my feelings are that there will be very few avenues not already explored over past seasons regarding increasing attendances at The Valley.
IMHO, it's a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel and any staff that have been in situ for longer than the RD years will be all too aware of this. Time after time, we have been asked at FF meetings to assist with this issue and to put forward any new suggestions....and I believe we now have a dedicated member of staff whose role it is to work on this dilemma.
The way that the cookie is crumbling at this moment in time, it will take something very special to encourage new fans to the ground and more so, to bring back disillusioned fans/season ticket holders.
Part of the reason for no shows is the product as seen on the pitch & for 2 years, it's been clear why many customers have rebelled. An upturn in performances & results would certainly help.
However, the current situation off the pitch and the tenure of RD/KM in general has deteriorated of late as you are aware and a large number of existing and potential season ticket holders have taken the stance that they will not return until said regime has left the building.
Personally, I think in the current climate that the T20,000 initiative is a dead duck ...
But I guess that KM will say "We tried to work with the fans ..."
Thanks Fanny and yes once a meeting has taken place and the minutes have been distributed to the group, we will then communicate these (excluding confidential items) via the Facebook page we are looking to open on Friday, our twitter account and yes I will also update this thread.
I totally understand what you're saying and I don't think the group intends to re-invent the wheel but the opportunity for dialog with the club has been presented so it's there really to make the best of it, present our ideas and why they could be of benefit. We have a mailbox if anybody wishes to get in touch with the group cafctarget20k@gmail.com even if it's just to get old ideas re-started then we will push for those ideas.
I watched the FF video and made my observations regarding actions (or lack of them) coming out of that meeting as you know and we will be pushing for ownership on actions and a follow up on those each time we meet the club, not just from the club but ourselves too where appropriate. We will keep items on the agenda until they are resolved (our group chair sets the agenda for meeting the club).
If it does all fall down it won't be for a lack of effort from the group but so far the meetings have been positive and personally i'm hoping one particular idea (which I can't share) suggested by the group will go ahead.
I think it is a good idea and it would be good to improve attendances. I am definitely not of the opinion that you should cut off your nose to spite Roland and Katrien. That is emotional twaddle and actually selfish. For the good of the club we should want attendances to improve. Anything that helps the team should be supported. Anything that positively removes the regime culture as it stands should be encouraged. We should never be closed to the idea that things including Katrien can change. So yes a good idea to support the target 20k and good that the initiative should be fan led or at least not be an intimidating meeting like the fans forum.
May I suggest that to get a high attendance the best way (seeing as how the football 'journey' is pretty dire) is to reduce prices drastically. Highest ST prices anywhere £250, and lowest (kids/concessions) £50. That might help to retain fans, don't know about adding any extra ones though.
Can't say I agree with that. I don't think price has ever been the issue - whilst ticketing (along with everything else) seems to have become a disorganised shambles since the Belgians arrived, the prices remain quite reasonable in comparison to other clubs. The standard of football and general lack of engagement is what's putting people off - sticking with KM's stupid restaurant analogy, if the worst restaurant in London was giving away free meals, I still wouldn't eat there.
Must be a way to leverage the chipped season tickets if they can collect attendance data etc.
I.e. charge £325 or whatever it is in the North upper and offer to refund £10 for every lost game you attend during the season. That way the owners interests are aligned with the fans and at least come the end of the season everyone will get a huge amount of cash back. Would also encourage fans to attend after purchase of ticket.
Egg, chips an a cup of tea at the Manor Cafe in Lee is OK, but not as good as a meal at Luciano's in Lee. It is about a quarter of the price though (yes i know Luciano's don't do egg and chips) However the Manor Cafe has unbelievable footfall by comparison.
Egg, chips an a cup of tea at the Manor Cafe in Lee is OK, but not as good as a meal at Luciano's in Lee. It is about a quarter of the price though (yes i know Luciano's don't do egg and chips) However the Manor Cafe has unbelievable footfall by comparison.
You must live near where I used to live. Luciano's is an excellent Italian restaurant, the Manor Cafe is an excellent greasy spoon, so the comparison is irrelevant, particularly as they're not in competition with each other, one being primarily a breakfast place and one being primarily an evening place.
Luciano's you have to book at least a couple of weeks in advance if you want a table on a Saturday night. You never have to book a table at Strada in Blackheath, even though it's much cheaper than Luciano's, and arguably in a more prestigious location, because the Italian food in Strada is not a patch on the Italian food in Luciano's.
KM and her effing restaurant analogy, got me into it now!
Must be a way to leverage the chipped season tickets if they can collect attendance data etc.
I.e. charge £325 or whatever it is in the North upper and offer to refund £10 for every lost game you attend during the season. That way the owners interests are aligned with the fans and at least come the end of the season everyone will get a huge amount of cash back. Would also encourage fans to attend after purchase of ticket.
This is doable, Motherwell did something similar with childrens' tickets (they paid less the more they attended). Whether it is desirable is another matter, how many people want to pay more up front (alternatively club revenue falls under this idea, which would be undesirable from the club's perspective).
Egg, chips an a cup of tea at the Manor Cafe in Lee is OK, but not as good as a meal at Luciano's in Lee. It is about a quarter of the price though (yes i know Luciano's don't do egg and chips) However the Manor Cafe has unbelievable footfall by comparison.
You must live near where I used to live. Luciano's is an excellent Italian restaurant, the Manor Cafe is an excellent greasy spoon, so the comparison is irrelevant, particularly as they're not in competition with each other, one being primarily a breakfast place and one being primarily an evening place.
Luciano's you have to book at least a couple of weeks in advance if you want a table on a Saturday night. You never have to book a table at Strada in Blackheath, even though it's much cheaper than Luciano's, and arguably in a more prestigious location, because the Italian food in Strada is not a patch on the Italian food in Luciano's.
KM and her effing restaurant analogy, got me into it now!
Is the comparison irrelevant though, both eating establishments in the same area after all? I am suggesting that both are price sensitive, as I believe the price for Football tickets are. I got a relative a ticket for Saturday for £26, which given the food served on the pitch at the Valley recently seems much too high. At my age I could go to six Dulwich Hamlet games for that money, probably have more enjoyment, and still have change to spare. Our attendances are falling, Dulwich attendances are growing (average about 1200 this season with regular turn outs of over 2000), and the price to get in is definitely a factor.
I think that the only way to get rid of Duchatelet is to drive him out financially. If he was a man with any feeling of shame or embarrassment he'd be out of the door by now, but he's not. He's obviously motivated by money though, and I can't think he'd want to hang around too long making substantial losses. My personal feeling is that Duchatelet is the worst thing to happen to this club since the Selhurst exile. Whatever it takes to get rid of him should be the line that supporters pursue. Participating in a project that if successful (and I'm under no illusions that it would be) would put money into that man's pockets is not what we need right now.
Under normal conditions, for fans to work with ownership/management to try and grow the club by boosting attendances is a perfectly logical and desirable thing to do. Things aren't normal. It's not like we're some sort of prize-fighter that needs to bulk up to be eligible for the big riches, because Duchatelet ain't interested in that. His interest is for us to go along meekly accepting whatever sub-standard product is placed in front of us whilst our ticket money quietly subsidises his player farm. A better analogy for the current situation might be that the club is like an arctic explorer whose manky frostbitten toes threaten not only the mission but his very existence. It may seem counterintuitive, it may seem unpalatable, but the best thing for supporters to do in the current climate is to cut out the gangrenous rot that blights our club. That means getting rid of Duchatelet and the best way to do that is for less of us to attend matches rather than more of us.
If he wants to boost attendances because it would be good for the club, let's see him turn up to a match himself rather than hiding in his bunker playing the Belgique Edition of Football Manager whilst counting his cash.
the Facebook page has now been published. Apologies it's a week later than hoped but we're now happy with the design and it will also co-incide with a page in today's match day programme.
Anyone driving this target is on the wrong side of the battle, fair enough if you are completely for RD but we can't promote the target while he is in charge, I said it from the start and this will not change - we have to drive him out financially and by halting his targets, if we give him a steady crowd he will get away with even more. I hope fans aren't putting too much work in to this, time could be much wiser spent fighting other battles.
Anyone driving this target is on the wrong side of the battle, fair enough if you are completely for RD but we can't promote the target while he is in charge, I said it from the start and this will not change - we have to drive him out financially and by halting his targets, if we give him a steady crowd he will get away with even more. I hope fans aren't putting too much work in to this, time could be much wiser spent fighting other battles.
Working in the group doesn't make any one of us on the wrong side of the battle. RD has said the club is not for sale and if he insists on that despite being hit in the pocket then what can any of us do in reality? For all we know he could be here for another 10 years with us languishing in the lower leagues and a day will come when he does eventually move on whether that be 6 months, 6 years? nobody knows but do we really want the fanbase to be driven into the ground during this time too?
Free tickets for schools today won't have hurt RD in the pocket I agree but being free they won't have lined his pockets either. If there are ways the group can help influence decision making at the club for the better then surely it's worth a try.
Anyone driving this target is on the wrong side of the battle, fair enough if you are completely for RD but we can't promote the target while he is in charge, I said it from the start and this will not change - we have to drive him out financially and by halting his targets, if we give him a steady crowd he will get away with even more. I hope fans aren't putting too much work in to this, time could be much wiser spent fighting other battles.
Working in the group doesn't make any one of us on the wrong side of the battle. RD has said the club is not for sale and if he insists on that despite being hit in the pocket then what can any of us do in reality? For all we know he could be here for another 10 years with us languishing in the lower leagues and a day will come when he does eventually move on whether that be 6 months, 6 years? nobody knows but do we really want the fanbase to be driven into the ground during this time too?
Free tickets for schools today won't have hurt RD in the pocket I agree but being free they won't have lined his pockets either. If there are ways the group can help influence decision making at the club for the better then surely it's worth a try.
Can you tell them to leave? We will reach 20000 quicker that way. Only going to achieve it now with free tickets to schools in the whole of the south East. ..and that at a push.
Anyone driving this target is on the wrong side of the battle, fair enough if you are completely for RD but we can't promote the target while he is in charge, I said it from the start and this will not change - we have to drive him out financially and by halting his targets, if we give him a steady crowd he will get away with even more. I hope fans aren't putting too much work in to this, time could be much wiser spent fighting other battles.
Working in the group doesn't make any one of us on the wrong side of the battle. RD has said the club is not for sale and if he insists on that despite being hit in the pocket then what can any of us do in reality? For all we know he could be here for another 10 years with us languishing in the lower leagues and a day will come when he does eventually move on whether that be 6 months, 6 years? nobody knows but do we really want the fanbase to be driven into the ground during this time too?
Free tickets for schools today won't have hurt RD in the pocket I agree but being free they won't have lined his pockets either. If there are ways the group can help influence decision making at the club for the better then surely it's worth a try.
The free tickets is KM's way of hiding how many season tickets are not turning up and to dilute the protests.
Comments
The meeting itself was really little more than a getting to know you session from all involved, what kind of time we arrive, where we go pre-match, post-match, how we travel etc as a way of trying to understand the supporters matchday experience.
As posted above, the minutes were shared with the group but i'm not going to share them either as one of the items to be discussed was actually how to best share future items to be discussed at meetings, some of which must remain confidential though some things will be shared athough how these things will be shared is yet to be established and would be better to come from an official Target 20k communication rather than myself or anybody else who was in attendance.
The meeting was not filmed and I wouldn't expect any future ones to be filmed either due to confidential information being discussed and possibly why the minutes aren't on the OS either.
I had a few concerns with the format of the meeting which I am hoping will be addressed at the next meeting and am prepared to accept it was only the first meeting so there is room for improvement which may take a while to address. I took some of the best contributions from this thread in with me and will continue to do so in future so long as the format of the meeting allows for these kind of contributions which I am hoping it will.
In regards to my own views of the regime I can't say i'm happy at everything going on at the club either but the meeting wasn't dictated by KM there were some very knowledgeable club staff there in addition to the other fans who attended who were very engaged and certainly there's potential for some good to come from this so i'll be sticking around but for how long really will depend on how productive I feel future meetings go and whether feasible ideas are listened to and implemented.
We have a twitter account @cafctarget20k
We will also have a Facebook page ready to be published by the Bristol City game - details will follow. We will be looking to publish ideas and discussion points from recent meetings with the club with yourselves able to add your views on those ideas although we are unable to share confidential information discussed at meetings with the club.
Please note this has all been done by the fans who have attended the Target 20k meetings so far, we are all moderating these accounts ourselves and not the club.
I wouldn't want anything to do with them
Are you serious ? The problem we are facing now is that the best way to get rid of Roland is to fail, and none of us want failure. Good luck to CARD, but we have quite a dilemma.
And remember, don't let KM make you out to be the patsy
However, although I was never a member of a Target XX group, my feelings are that there will be very few avenues not already explored over past seasons regarding increasing attendances at The Valley.
IMHO, it's a bit like trying to re-invent the wheel and any staff that have been in situ for longer than the RD years will be all too aware of this. Time after time, we have been asked at FF meetings to assist with this issue and to put forward any new suggestions....and I believe we now have a dedicated member of staff whose role it is to work on this dilemma.
The way that the cookie is crumbling at this moment in time, it will take something very special to encourage new fans to the ground and more so, to bring back disillusioned fans/season ticket holders.
Part of the reason for no shows is the product as seen on the pitch & for 2 years, it's been clear why many customers have rebelled. An upturn in performances & results would certainly help.
However, the current situation off the pitch and the tenure of RD/KM in general has deteriorated of late as you are aware and a large number of existing and potential season ticket holders have taken the stance that they will not return until said regime has left the building.
Personally, I think in the current climate that the T20,000 initiative is a dead duck ...
But I guess that KM will say "We tried to work with the fans ..."
Highest ST prices anywhere £250, and lowest (kids/concessions) £50.
That might help to retain fans, don't know about adding any extra ones though.
I totally understand what you're saying and I don't think the group intends to re-invent the wheel but the opportunity for dialog with the club has been presented so it's there really to make the best of it, present our ideas and why they could be of benefit. We have a mailbox if anybody wishes to get in touch with the group cafctarget20k@gmail.com even if it's just to get old ideas re-started then we will push for those ideas.
I watched the FF video and made my observations regarding actions (or lack of them) coming out of that meeting as you know and we will be pushing for ownership on actions and a follow up on those each time we meet the club, not just from the club but ourselves too where appropriate. We will keep items on the agenda until they are resolved (our group chair sets the agenda for meeting the club).
If it does all fall down it won't be for a lack of effort from the group but so far the meetings have been positive and personally i'm hoping one particular idea (which I can't share) suggested by the group will go ahead.
I.e. charge £325 or whatever it is in the North upper and offer to refund £10 for every lost game you attend during the season. That way the owners interests are aligned with the fans and at least come the end of the season everyone will get a huge amount of cash back. Would also encourage fans to attend after purchase of ticket.
Luciano's you have to book at least a couple of weeks in advance if you want a table on a Saturday night. You never have to book a table at Strada in Blackheath, even though it's much cheaper than Luciano's, and arguably in a more prestigious location, because the Italian food in Strada is not a patch on the Italian food in Luciano's.
KM and her effing restaurant analogy, got me into it now!
I got a relative a ticket for Saturday for £26, which given the food served on the pitch at the Valley recently seems much too high. At my age I could go to six Dulwich Hamlet games for that money, probably have more enjoyment, and still have change to spare. Our attendances are falling, Dulwich attendances are growing (average about 1200 this season with regular turn outs of over 2000), and the price to get in is definitely a factor.
Under normal conditions, for fans to work with ownership/management to try and grow the club by boosting attendances is a perfectly logical and desirable thing to do. Things aren't normal. It's not like we're some sort of prize-fighter that needs to bulk up to be eligible for the big riches, because Duchatelet ain't interested in that. His interest is for us to go along meekly accepting whatever sub-standard product is placed in front of us whilst our ticket money quietly subsidises his player farm. A better analogy for the current situation might be that the club is like an arctic explorer whose manky frostbitten toes threaten not only the mission but his very existence. It may seem counterintuitive, it may seem unpalatable, but the best thing for supporters to do in the current climate is to cut out the gangrenous rot that blights our club. That means getting rid of Duchatelet and the best way to do that is for less of us to attend matches rather than more of us.
If he wants to boost attendances because it would be good for the club, let's see him turn up to a match himself rather than hiding in his bunker playing the Belgique Edition of Football Manager whilst counting his cash.
www.facebook.com/CAFCTarget20k
As it is it will be another failure of our CEO on her CV.
Free tickets for schools today won't have hurt RD in the pocket I agree but being free they won't have lined his pockets either. If there are ways the group can help influence decision making at the club for the better then surely it's worth a try.