If this is a serious proposition, which looking at Airman's post you could be forgiven in thinking it was bollocks, how will it work in regards to who helps?
Does she and everyone else for that matter really believe that a break even club with cheap managers and a football target of championship mid table is really going to attract 20000!?And to that matter that off the pitch fun will help make up for a poor team to bring in 7000 new people!? Lots want to believe it I know but come on!
Interesting to read that again and the measures taken at that time were necessary and subsequently proven to work.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
I want the opposite. I want their team to lose, the team to be relegated and attendances to plummet until they have gone. Not every ones cup of tea I know but I don't see how you can want them out but at the same time support their team and help them grow. But I think I am in a minority on wanting them gone. The majority just want a few wins, whilst others have their own aims such as personal involvement.
Interesting to read that again and the measures taken at that time were necessary and subsequently proven to work.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
I take your point about the 1990s and agree - however as we had up to 4,000 people travelling on Valley Express during the latter PL years it is not as simple as that. My point is that there are things you can do independently of results - and they include using experience and common sense to knock down nonsense.
The plan to force fans to move out of the upper north to make way for supposed new Crossbars users in 2014 is an obvious example, as at the opposite end of the scale is the sofa. The current pricing structure is not robust and would never have got through the committee, so those mistakes would have been avoided.
Unfortunately, I think Meire is incapable of the humility shown by the PL board in understanding that they did not have a monopoly of wisdom about fans. Nobody does, hence the need for a process to generate, pilot and test ideas. That isn't the FF, it's a group that brings together people with relevant skills and experience because they have those qualities, not because they happen to organise train travel, etc.
All the 2000s initiatives came through Target 40k - Valley Express has nothing to with the 90s scenario you describe, but as mentioned at the meeting last night it's now a shambles, in part because it's just delegated to a junior staffer. That couldn't happen when there was oversight and feedback via the committee.
Ultimately, this is an easy way to make a small positive impression on the operating loss, but it does require genuine collaboration.
Interesting to read that again and the measures taken at that time were necessary and subsequently proven to work.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
I take your point about the 1990s and agree - however as we had up to 4,000 people travelling on Valley Express during the latter PL years it is not as simple as that. My point is that there are things you can do independently of results - and they include using experience and common sense to knock down nonsense.
The plan to force fans to move out of the upper north to make way for supposed new Crossbars users in 2014 is an obvious example, as at the opposite end of the scale is the sofa. The current pricing structure is not robust and would never have got through the committee, so those mistakes would have been avoided.
Unfortunately, I think Meire is incapable of the humility shown by the PL board in understanding that they did not have a monopoly of wisdom about fans. Nobody does, hence the need for a process to generate, pilot and test ideas. That isn't the FF, it's a group that brings together people with relevant skills and experience because they have those qualities, not because they happen to organise train travel, etc.
All the 2000s initiatives came through Target 40k - Valley Express has nothing to with the 90s scenario you describe, but as mentioned at the meeting last night it's now a shambles in part because it's just delegated to a junior staffer. That couldn't happen when there was oversight and feedback via the committee.
Completely agree re Valley Express. The guy next to me, also a season ticket holder, travels up from Ashford via Valley Express. He has told me more than once that if Valley Express stops he stops. I am sure he is not alone in that view.
As a potential 'victim' I also agree re the Crossbars fiasco.
Does 'common sense' as exemplified by those two examples require a committee though? My three and a half year old grandson could probably work those two out!
I want the opposite. I want their team to lose, the team to be relegated and attendances to plummet until they have gone. Not every ones cup of tea I know but I don't see how you can want them out but at the same time support their team and help them grow. But I think I am in a minority on wanting them gone. The majority just want a few wins, whilst others have their own aims such as personal involvement.
It was obvious from Saturday how disappointed you were that the crowd got behind the players, and supported the team when you wanted them to lose. Your words were, you wanted more action. You were disappointed the demonstration didn't carry on during the game.
Roland Duchatelet may be the owner, But Charlton are my team.
You won't be alone in boycotting the Valley, Supporters did that in the 60' and 70's under Michael Gliksten. Even before Fryer took us to Selhurst park in the 80's.
Found this from Feb 2009 days after Gliksten died, posted by a guy called Dave.
"As a teenager I sang rascist songs in the Covered End against our jewish Chairman with no ambition for Charlton Athletic and whose family we blamed for our failure to capitalise on the earlier good times and develop the Valley into the sort of ground that might have sustained top class football sooner than the 28 years it took us to return after being relegated in 1957. We blamed him personally for the move to Selhurst park because of his refusal to sell his couple of acres behind the West Stand to Sunley. I was involved in the grafitti at the Valley the night prior to the last game and again it was Michael Gliksten who bore the brunt"
Later Dave described Michael Gliksten as Parsimonious ! History repeating itself ?
Do we build bridges, or blow them up ?
If you blow them up be prepared for more relegation and more poor ownership.
Because if RD sells he won't care if their Chinese property developers or a Kazakhstan uranium Exporter.
It may be fine and noble wanting the Absent Owner and his CEO Sidekick, out the club but have a Exit strategy or else we face the same again and again. history repeating itself ?
There are currently five clubs in the Championship who are averaging over 20k. So 21% percent of clubs are currently hitting this level whilst 79% aren't. What is it about those five clubs that means that they can do it?
Derby (29,260): Currently fifth in the league with two games in hand over the league leaders. Have a squad full of Premiership level players. Come from a one-club city.
Leeds United (23,387): Historically bigger than any other club in the Championship and many in the Premiership. Come from a one-club city. Are having their best season in years, being a full six points off the relegation zone.
Middlesbrough (21,996): Another team playing exciting football and challenging for promotion. Another team from a one-club city. And crucially, they come from Middlesbrough. What else is available for people to do?
Brighton (21,996): Unbeaten in the league and second in the table. Playing in a one-club city in a shiny new(ish) stadium after years in exile. Things haven't been as good at Brighton since Smith should have scored.
Sheffield Wednesday (20,917): You don't need me to remind you just how massive this lot are.
I'm not sure there's anything Charlton can do to generate the sort of enthusiasm going on at those clubs, all the time the dead-hand of Duchatelet keeps morale, performances and results in an ever decreasing spiral. In fact I'm a bit loathe to post this in a place where RD's minions might see it, as the conclusion they might draw is that we need a new stadium in a one-club city. In case you are thinking about that RD, it's worth remembering that MKD with their gleaming new stadium and wonderful facilities only average 13,738. Because they haven't got the one thing that we share with the five clubs listed above - a real history. But then, Tweedle-Dumb and Tweedle-Dumber don't like taking about that, do they.
What baffles me is that Charlton don't boast about the single biggest selling point we have compared with London's other Championship clubs - price. We've cheap tickets, and loads of them to sell.
It's £17.50 behind the goal at Charlton compared with £25 at Fulham, £23 at Brentford and £24+ at QPR (can only find 2013/14 prices). We should be shouting about this. We're not.
If the football's good and the cost is affordable, things should get better. But you won't get crowds if you don't tell people what you're offering.
What baffles me is that Charlton don't boast about the single biggest selling point we have compared with London's other Championship clubs - price. We've cheap tickets, and loads of them to sell.
It's £17.50 behind the goal at Charlton compared with £25 at Fulham, £23 at Brentford and £24+ at QPR (can only find 2013/14 prices). We should be shouting about this. We're not.
If the football's good and the cost is affordable, things should get better. But you won't get crowds if you don't tell people what you're offering.
Just one example of how informed fans can help frame what the club does.
Interesting to read that again and the measures taken at that time were necessary and subsequently proven to work.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
I take your point about the 1990s and agree - however as we had up to 4,000 people travelling on Valley Express during the latter PL years it is not as simple as that. My point is that there are things you can do independently of results - and they include using experience and common sense to knock down nonsense.
The plan to force fans to move out of the upper north to make way for supposed new Crossbars users in 2014 is an obvious example, as at the opposite end of the scale is the sofa. The current pricing structure is not robust and would never have got through the committee, so those mistakes would have been avoided.
Unfortunately, I think Meire is incapable of the humility shown by the PL board in understanding that they did not have a monopoly of wisdom about fans. Nobody does, hence the need for a process to generate, pilot and test ideas. That isn't the FF, it's a group that brings together people with relevant skills and experience because they have those qualities, not because they happen to organise train travel, etc.
All the 2000s initiatives came through Target 40k - Valley Express has nothing to with the 90s scenario you describe, but as mentioned at the meeting last night it's now a shambles in part because it's just delegated to a junior staffer. That couldn't happen when there was oversight and feedback via the committee.
Completely agree re Valley Express. The guy next to me, also a season ticket holder, travels up from Ashford via Valley Express. He has told me more than once that if Valley Express stops he stops. I am sure he is not alone in that view.
As a potential 'victim' I also agree re the Crossbars fiasco.
Does 'common sense' as exemplified by those two examples require a committee though? My three and a half year old grandson could probably work those two out!
But amazingly all have been instituted or suggested.
So, yes sometimes you need someone to point out that the emperor is wearing no clothes. Maybe you shouldn't but we do.
There will be other far more subtle debates or what might seem like small margins like £50 on a season ticket.
How about shifting the Seniors age range to 60 from 65. Boring and who cares? Not as fun or as macho as suggesting riots and direct action but something that needed to be tested, examined and challenged with real numbers, something Airman always provided to the old committee.
Interesting to read that again and the measures taken at that time were necessary and subsequently proven to work.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
Ultimately, this is an easy way to make a small positive impression on the operating loss, but it does require genuine collaboration.
As I said, one small but one giant leap for an under pressure, inexperienced manager who isn't coping with the stress.
The lesson, if only she'd listen, is that asking for help and advice makes you stronger as a manager, not weaker. You still decide but you have more information and can have more confidence that the ideas will work because they have already been thrashed to within an inch of their lives.
What baffles me is that Charlton don't boast about the single biggest selling point we have compared with London's other Championship clubs - price. We've cheap tickets, and loads of them to sell.
It's £17.50 behind the goal at Charlton compared with £25 at Fulham, £23 at Brentford and £24+ at QPR (can only find 2013/14 prices). We should be shouting about this. We're not.
If the football's good and the cost is affordable, things should get better. But you won't get crowds if you don't tell people what you're offering.
It's not £17.50 behind the goal, it's £22-£26, but I agree they don't promote the cheaper prices in the right places.
This is all very well and good but we will still have to get the owner to buy into it and back it the hilt.
Easier said then done in my opinion
That is exactly right in my view, because the history of the previous initiatives indicates that.
I was already abroad when Target 10k and 40k kicked off, but I watched admiringly from afar and tried to keep up to date with it all on my trips over. So maybe my memory is hazy on the detail, but I think there are some fundamental points that don't fade with time
The attendances were already on the up, because the results were improving, and we were back home - basking in our achievement of getting there and fully confident in the Board that was taking us forward. We had a Supporters Director. We had a CEO who fundamentally believed in the idea that supporters had some of the best ideas how to grow attendances further. I wouldn't underestimate the challenge Peter Varney took on in integrating the enthusiastic but highly opinionated supporters with the established club middle managers (think Airman and "Steve Sunderland")
So those Targets worked because
- the fans believed the Club was already heading in the right direction - the fans believed in the Board and the CEO - the CEO in particular believed in the fans
Henry has listed the right sort of people and the right range of skills, for sure. But without the conditions I've listed above being in place -or at least that we head in that direction - Target 20k won't attract the enthusiasm and quality of thinking from the right people. They will be expected to volunteer, don't forget.
Summary; good thoughts in principal, Henry but we need to see much more progress from the club side to get anywhere near the level of trust that was absolutely crucial to making it work in the 90s, before we can expect those smart and talented people to offer their free time to this business.
This is all very well and good but we will still have to get the owner to buy into it and back it the hilt.
Easier said then done in my opinion
That is exactly right in my view, because the history of the previous initiatives indicates that.
I was already abroad when Target 10k and 40k kicked off, but I watched admiringly from afar and tried to keep up to date with it all on my trips over. So maybe my memory is hazy on the detail, but I think there are some fundamental points that don't fade with time
The attendances were already on the up, because the results were improving, and we were back home - basking in our achievement of getting there and fully confident in the Board that was taking us forward. We had a Supporters Director. We had a CEO who fundamentally believed in the idea that supporters had some of the best ideas how to grow attendances further. I wouldn't underestimate the challenge Peter Varney took on in integrating the enthusiastic but highly opinionated supporters with the established club middle managers (think Airman and "Steve Sunderland")
So those Targets worked because
- the fans believed the Club was already heading in the right direction - the fans believed in the Board and the CEO - the CEO in particular believed in the fans
Henry has listed the right sort of people and the right range of skills, for sure. But without the conditions I've listed above being in place -or at least that we head in that direction - Target 20k won't attract the enthusiasm and quality of thinking from the right people. They will be expected to volunteer, don't forget.
Summary; good thoughts in principal, Henry but we need to see much more progress from the club side to get anywhere near the level of trust that was absolutely crucial to making it work in the 90s, before we can expect those smart and talented people to offer their free time to this business.
A few points - Peter Varney wasn't involved in Target 10k, he didn't join the staff until 1997; Steve Sunderland wasn't on the staff then either. Attendances had stagnated after the return to The Valley, but the big problem was the low capacity until the east stand opened in April 1994.
I joined the staff in 1998, but Target 40k began in 2004. Suthers wasn't on the staff in 1998 and he wasn't ever involved in Target 40k. I have had a bit of fun with Suthers over the years, but you overstate any ongoing issue between us. Just detail, but best to deal in facts!
This is all very well and good but we will still have to get the owner to buy into it and back it the hilt.
Easier said then done in my opinion
That is exactly right in my view, because the history of the previous initiatives indicates that.
I was already abroad when Target 10k and 40k kicked off, but I watched admiringly from afar and tried to keep up to date with it all on my trips over. So maybe my memory is hazy on the detail, but I think there are some fundamental points that don't fade with time
The attendances were already on the up, because the results were improving, and we were back home - basking in our achievement of getting there and fully confident in the Board that was taking us forward. We had a Supporters Director. We had a CEO who fundamentally believed in the idea that supporters had some of the best ideas how to grow attendances further. I wouldn't underestimate the challenge Peter Varney took on in integrating the enthusiastic but highly opinionated supporters with the established club middle managers (think Airman and "Steve Sunderland")
So those Targets worked because
- the fans believed the Club was already heading in the right direction - the fans believed in the Board and the CEO - the CEO in particular believed in the fans
Henry has listed the right sort of people and the right range of skills, for sure. But without the conditions I've listed above being in place -or at least that we head in that direction - Target 20k won't attract the enthusiasm and quality of thinking from the right people. They will be expected to volunteer, don't forget.
Summary; good thoughts in principal, Henry but we need to see much more progress from the club side to get anywhere near the level of trust that was absolutely crucial to making it work in the 90s, before we can expect those smart and talented people to offer their free time to this business.
A few points - Peter Varney wasn't involved in Target 10k, he didn't join the staff until 1997; Steve Sunderland wasn't on the staff then either. Attendances had stagnated after the return to The Valley, but the big problem was the low capacity until the east stand opened in April 1994.
I joined the staff in 1998, but Target 40k began in 2004. Suthers wasn't on the staff in 1998 and he wasn't ever involved in Target 40k. I have had a bit of fun with Suthers over the years, but you overstate any ongoing issue between us. Just detail but best to deal in facts.
Fair enough. I did start my comment with caveats.
Do you agree with my central point though? because I think it is important, before we embrace as fans a new Target 20k, and expect a new generation of fans to volunteer to drive it.
This is all very well and good but we will still have to get the owner to buy into it and back it the hilt.
Easier said then done in my opinion
That is exactly right in my view, because the history of the previous initiatives indicates that.
I was already abroad when Target 10k and 40k kicked off, but I watched admiringly from afar and tried to keep up to date with it all on my trips over. So maybe my memory is hazy on the detail, but I think there are some fundamental points that don't fade with time
The attendances were already on the up, because the results were improving, and we were back home - basking in our achievement of getting there and fully confident in the Board that was taking us forward. We had a Supporters Director. We had a CEO who fundamentally believed in the idea that supporters had some of the best ideas how to grow attendances further. I wouldn't underestimate the challenge Peter Varney took on in integrating the enthusiastic but highly opinionated supporters with the established club middle managers (think Airman and "Steve Sunderland")
So those Targets worked because
- the fans believed the Club was already heading in the right direction - the fans believed in the Board and the CEO - the CEO in particular believed in the fans
Henry has listed the right sort of people and the right range of skills, for sure. But without the conditions I've listed above being in place -or at least that we head in that direction - Target 20k won't attract the enthusiasm and quality of thinking from the right people. They will be expected to volunteer, don't forget.
Summary; good thoughts in principal, Henry but we need to see much more progress from the club side to get anywhere near the level of trust that was absolutely crucial to making it work in the 90s, before we can expect those smart and talented people to offer their free time to this business.
A few points - Peter Varney wasn't involved in Target 10k, he didn't join the staff until 1997; Steve Sunderland wasn't on the staff then either. Attendances had stagnated after the return to The Valley, but the big problem was the low capacity until the east stand opened in April 1994.
I joined the staff in 1998, but Target 40k began in 2004. Suthers wasn't on the staff in 1998 and he wasn't ever involved in Target 40k. I have had a bit of fun with Suthers over the years, but you overstate any ongoing issue between us. Just detail but best to deal in facts.
Fair enough. I did start my comment with caveats.
Do you agree with my central point though? because I think it is important, before we embrace as fans a new Target 20k, and expect a new generation of fans to volunteer to drive it.
I will watch the video as and when, but my impression is that they are a long way from understanding and accepting what could be achieved, so all you will get from KM is the same old, same old, however you package it and whoever you ask to contribute.
It's not a coincidence she proposed the same thing 14 months ago and nothing happened. So it's kind of academic what the fans are willing to do.
I still don't quite understand guys; why are you wanting to boost attendances? Why are you helping KM and RD achieve one of their goals? It means their experiment is being funded by us, their goal won't change because of it and if anything it makes it more comfortable for them.
Wasted time and resources and if anything it's unhelpful at this current time. Obviously feel free to crack on with it if you love what is going on with RD at the helm of our club. Come watch Charlton, the team striving for survival in Championship while spending on an apparently big budget. Building a worse future separately, and try to dismantle a great future.
I agree it needs genuine commitment from KM and I agree that she has shown no indication that she will give such commitment
That is one reason why she shouldnt be in the T20k group even though she'll want to.
If we as fans want it to work (i get it that many see it as an irrelevance) then we need to set the agenda for it.
Even a journey of a 1000 miles starts with a single step as the Proclaimers sang : - )
Genuine question, because I believe this is a genuine initiative. How can anything be implemented by such a group, unless it has the full backing of the CEO, whoever that is?
Do you see this group as meeting independently of the club, and then going to it with fully worked out proposals, asking them to implement them?
My children (13 and 16) don't not want to go to The Valley because there are no DJs in bars, because there are no swipe cards instead of turnstile operators, because we have offered longer contracts to players or because we have 'spent' £9m on transfers. They don't want to go because too often the football is so bad. Gimmicks won't get anyone in (other than perhaps once). A good side will.
The group made up of the relevant staff in club development, marketing and comms (and I really hope marketing and comms are two different people) meet with fans with relevant expertise to work up proposals and critical reviewing other proposals.
These are presented to the CEO with costings and benefits.
Essentially what happens in the real world.
So for example season ticket prices would be proposed at a certain level, or even a number of different options, with figures to back up them and a list of pros and cons.
Our average attendance this year is the lowest since 1997/1998. This includes an almost packed Valley against Millwall, football for a fiver which was near on a sell-out, and some jaded figures as to the attendances as so many ST holders aren't attending now in comparison to other years.
Operation 20k will never even get close, it should be operation stop it from dropping - as that in itself will be a task. We have no reason to gain new fans, and we have all the reasons to lose our current ones.
Wasting our time a) helping RD & KM build attendances and b) fighting a lost battle - the football on the pitch brings the punters.
Our average attendance this year is the lowest since 1997/1998. This includes an almost packed Valley against Millwall, football for a fiver which was near on a sell-out, and some jaded figures as to the attendances as so many ST holders aren't attending now in comparison to other years.
Operation 20k will never even get close, it should be operation stop it from dropping - as that in itself will be a task. We have no reason to gain new fans, and we have all the reasons to lose our current ones.
Wasting our time a) helping RD & KM build attendances and b) fighting a lost battle - the football on the pitch brings the punters.
Completely agree. Remember when we were first back at The Valley and thrilled when we sold out the 8,032 (always remember that number!) every week. The with the Premier League years we got excellent numbers and did brilliantly to hold on to them. All that because of football. No gimmicks, just good football. Gimmicks are what you get when you give people with marketing backgrounds and no souls a job to do.
Here's an excerpt from the Fans Forum meeting in September 2014 - 14 months ago:
"KM suggested that a working group of supporters be set up with the task of increasing the supporter base (20k). Fans Forum representatives to suggest best placed supporters that could help with this working group and email suggestions to LS."
After this meeting, Wendy Perfect emailed her to follow this up. No response.
More proof the words that come from KM's mouth are utter rubbish. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure she said every email sent to her is sent to the relevant department and that they've always welcomed fans to come forward with positive, constructive ideas!
Our average attendance this year is the lowest since 1997/1998. This includes an almost packed Valley against Millwall, football for a fiver which was near on a sell-out, and some jaded figures as to the attendances as so many ST holders aren't attending now in comparison to other years.
Operation 20k will never even get close, it should be operation stop it from dropping - as that in itself will be a task. We have no reason to gain new fans, and we have all the reasons to lose our current ones.
Wasting our time a) helping RD & KM build attendances and b) fighting a lost battle - the football on the pitch brings the punters.
Completely agree. Remember when we were first back at The Valley and thrilled when we sold out the 8,032 (always remember that number!) every week. The with the Premier League years we got excellent numbers and did brilliantly to hold on to them. All that because of football. No gimmicks, just good football. Gimmicks are what you get when you give people with marketing backgrounds and no souls a job to do.
Comments
A vote?
- by replying to letters/e mails (Breaking the club's charter in failing to do so)
- Better communication with the fans. Don't go silent for 2 weeks with no reason in sacking your head coach.
- Minutes from the last fans forum meeting to be seen. Only 4 weeks has passed now.
- Goading men women and children from the directors lounge, is not the mature action of a CEO.
The key words though are AT THAT TIME. Seven plus years of exile diluted the supporter base and after such a long time the 'lapsed' and their families, many of whom had left the Charlton area as SE London property prices escalated, needed reminding that 'their club' was very much back and thriving at The Valley and the coaches, free / subsidised tickets etc were a vital part of that.
We will never know of course how much if any of that would have been necessary had Charlton reached the top tier prior to 1998.
My succinct comment was not intended to belittle what had gone before, unlike Ms Meire I respect our history.
However for seven unbroken seasons of Premiership football the home areas were full to the extent that around 20K fans were season ticket holders.
That shows that people are and were aware of Charlton but that they are dissatisfied with what is and has happened at Charlton at the moment.
Get that right and people will return. Fannying around with sofas and DJs in club bars doesn't cut it. If we want a sofa we'll go to Starbucks and if we want a DJ we will visit our local discotheque.
In short we are not comparing like with like in my view.
*DISCLAIMER* I am over 50 and thus not worthy of holding an opinion according to Ms Meire it would appear.
;-)
The plan to force fans to move out of the upper north to make way for supposed new Crossbars users in 2014 is an obvious example, as at the opposite end of the scale is the sofa. The current pricing structure is not robust and would never have got through the committee, so those mistakes would have been avoided.
Unfortunately, I think Meire is incapable of the humility shown by the PL board in understanding that they did not have a monopoly of wisdom about fans. Nobody does, hence the need for a process to generate, pilot and test ideas. That isn't the FF, it's a group that brings together people with relevant skills and experience because they have those qualities, not because they happen to organise train travel, etc.
All the 2000s initiatives came through Target 40k - Valley Express has nothing to with the 90s scenario you describe, but as mentioned at the meeting last night it's now a shambles, in part because it's just delegated to a junior staffer. That couldn't happen when there was oversight and feedback via the committee.
Ultimately, this is an easy way to make a small positive impression on the operating loss, but it does require genuine collaboration.
As a potential 'victim' I also agree re the Crossbars fiasco.
Does 'common sense' as exemplified by those two examples require a committee though? My three and a half year old grandson could probably work those two out!
Your words were, you wanted more action.
You were disappointed the demonstration didn't carry on during the game.
Roland Duchatelet may be the owner, But Charlton are my team.
You won't be alone in boycotting the Valley,
Supporters did that in the 60' and 70's under Michael Gliksten. Even before Fryer took us to Selhurst park in the 80's.
Found this from Feb 2009 days after Gliksten died, posted by a guy called Dave.
"As a teenager I sang rascist songs in the Covered End against our jewish Chairman with no ambition for Charlton Athletic and whose family we blamed for our failure to capitalise on the earlier good times and develop the Valley into the sort of ground that might have sustained top class football sooner than the 28 years it took us to return after being relegated in 1957. We blamed him personally for the move to Selhurst park because of his refusal to sell his couple of acres behind the West Stand to Sunley. I was involved in the grafitti at the Valley the night prior to the last game and again it was Michael Gliksten who bore the brunt"
Later Dave described Michael Gliksten as Parsimonious !
History repeating itself ?
Do we build bridges, or blow them up ?
If you blow them up be prepared for more relegation and more poor ownership.
Because if RD sells he won't care if their Chinese property developers or
a Kazakhstan uranium Exporter.
It may be fine and noble wanting the Absent Owner and his CEO Sidekick,
out the club but have a Exit strategy or else we face the same again and again.
history repeating itself ?
I think that might get some media attention...
Derby (29,260): Currently fifth in the league with two games in hand over the league leaders. Have a squad full of Premiership level players. Come from a one-club city.
Leeds United (23,387): Historically bigger than any other club in the Championship and many in the Premiership. Come from a one-club city. Are having their best season in years, being a full six points off the relegation zone.
Middlesbrough (21,996): Another team playing exciting football and challenging for promotion. Another team from a one-club city. And crucially, they come from Middlesbrough. What else is available for people to do?
Brighton (21,996): Unbeaten in the league and second in the table. Playing in a one-club city in a shiny new(ish) stadium after years in exile. Things haven't been as good at Brighton since Smith should have scored.
Sheffield Wednesday (20,917): You don't need me to remind you just how massive this lot are.
I'm not sure there's anything Charlton can do to generate the sort of enthusiasm going on at those clubs, all the time the dead-hand of Duchatelet keeps morale, performances and results in an ever decreasing spiral. In fact I'm a bit loathe to post this in a place where RD's minions might see it, as the conclusion they might draw is that we need a new stadium in a one-club city. In case you are thinking about that RD, it's worth remembering that MKD with their gleaming new stadium and wonderful facilities only average 13,738. Because they haven't got the one thing that we share with the five clubs listed above - a real history. But then, Tweedle-Dumb and Tweedle-Dumber don't like taking about that, do they.
It's £17.50 behind the goal at Charlton compared with £25 at Fulham, £23 at Brentford and £24+ at QPR (can only find 2013/14 prices). We should be shouting about this. We're not.
If the football's good and the cost is affordable, things should get better. But you won't get crowds if you don't tell people what you're offering.
So, yes sometimes you need someone to point out that the emperor is wearing no clothes. Maybe you shouldn't but we do.
There will be other far more subtle debates or what might seem like small margins like £50 on a season ticket.
How about shifting the Seniors age range to 60 from 65. Boring and who cares? Not as fun or as macho as suggesting riots and direct action but something that needed to be tested, examined and challenged with real numbers, something Airman always provided to the old committee. As I said, one small but one giant leap for an under pressure, inexperienced manager who isn't coping with the stress.
The lesson, if only she'd listen, is that asking for help and advice makes you stronger as a manager, not weaker. You still decide but you have more information and can have more confidence that the ideas will work because they have already been thrashed to within an inch of their lives.
Easier said then done in my opinion
I was already abroad when Target 10k and 40k kicked off, but I watched admiringly from afar and tried to keep up to date with it all on my trips over. So maybe my memory is hazy on the detail, but I think there are some fundamental points that don't fade with time
The attendances were already on the up, because the results were improving, and we were back home - basking in our achievement of getting there and fully confident in the Board that was taking us forward. We had a Supporters Director. We had a CEO who fundamentally believed in the idea that supporters had some of the best ideas how to grow attendances further. I wouldn't underestimate the challenge Peter Varney took on in integrating the enthusiastic but highly opinionated supporters with the established club middle managers (think Airman and "Steve Sunderland")
So those Targets worked because
- the fans believed the Club was already heading in the right direction
- the fans believed in the Board and the CEO
- the CEO in particular believed in the fans
Henry has listed the right sort of people and the right range of skills, for sure. But without the conditions I've listed above being in place -or at least that we head in that direction - Target 20k won't attract the enthusiasm and quality of thinking from the right people. They will be expected to volunteer, don't forget.
Summary; good thoughts in principal, Henry but we need to see much more progress from the club side to get anywhere near the level of trust that was absolutely crucial to making it work in the 90s, before we can expect those smart and talented people to offer their free time to this business.
I joined the staff in 1998, but Target 40k began in 2004. Suthers wasn't on the staff in 1998 and he wasn't ever involved in Target 40k. I have had a bit of fun with Suthers over the years, but you overstate any ongoing issue between us. Just detail, but best to deal in facts!
Do you agree with my central point though? because I think it is important, before we embrace as fans a new Target 20k, and expect a new generation of fans to volunteer to drive it.
It's not a coincidence she proposed the same thing 14 months ago and nothing happened. So it's kind of academic what the fans are willing to do.
That is one reason why she shouldnt be in the T20k group even though she'll want to.
If we as fans want it to work (i get it that many see it as an irrelevance) then we need to set the agenda for it.
Even a journey of a 1000 miles starts with a single step as the Proclaimers sang : - )
Wasted time and resources and if anything it's unhelpful at this current time. Obviously feel free to crack on with it if you love what is going on with RD at the helm of our club. Come watch Charlton, the team striving for survival in Championship while spending on an apparently big budget. Building a worse future separately, and try to dismantle a great future.
Do you see this group as meeting independently of the club, and then going to it with fully worked out proposals, asking them to implement them?
The group made up of the relevant staff in club development, marketing and comms (and I really hope marketing and comms are two different people) meet with fans with relevant expertise to work up proposals and critical reviewing other proposals.
These are presented to the CEO with costings and benefits.
Essentially what happens in the real world.
So for example season ticket prices would be proposed at a certain level, or even a number of different options, with figures to back up them and a list of pros and cons.
The CEO then makes an informed decision.
Operation 20k will never even get close, it should be operation stop it from dropping - as that in itself will be a task. We have no reason to gain new fans, and we have all the reasons to lose our current ones.
Wasting our time a) helping RD & KM build attendances and b) fighting a lost battle - the football on the pitch brings the punters.
Kids for a quid, Valley express. Remember them?