Excellent result for sure, but surprised across the various threads that this seems to be seen by some as the turning of the corner. It's one game, just as MK Dons was one game. Hard to believe that almost overnight an inept CEO has become a good one and a manager with almost no experience has become the answer. Let's be prepared to accept we were wrong in a month or two, and in the meantime keep up the pressure.
Sheffield Wednesday were not as prepared as Preston or Brentford were, and they gave us an easy time. When we play other teams we will properly be tested, does anybody think Birmingham away is going to be an 'after you Jeeves' thing with Rowett in charge of a resurgent club?
Yesterday was great, and those points might well come in handy rather than no points at all, but the only convincer on this is to win every single game from the next 9 which are:
Birminghan A Ipswich H Brighton A Leeds H Bolton H Burnley A Bristol City A Wolves H Forest H
Those are the fixtures up to the FA Cup third round.
Rowett, McCarthy, Hughton, Dyche, Jacket, Evans are amongst the managers we are facing, you can't tell me they won't research us, and be set up to do as much damage as possible, something Wednesday lacked yesterday.
We only have scouting of opposition on an ad hoc basis now, presumably a trusted ex-pro tells Fraeye what's what about what we're going to face. Except that Fraeye will not have the contacts or the local knowledge to suss out any kind of trusted ex-pro to give him a thorough low down.
Fraeye would be better off getting Tutt Tutt to scout because at least Tutt Tutt cares about the welfare of Charlton.
As I have said, win those nine matches listed above and the words, exhortations, explanations and excuses and such like, might just begin to gain some credibility.
So from that we can deduce that she is not a CEO. So why get so upset about her not doing her job if we can all see she is just RDs mouthpiece.
She's not a chief executive, but she's not without any authority simply by virtue of the fact that RD cannot possibly make every decision on the ground, any more than he can tell the players when to shoot or pass the ball during a match.
Wherever you draw the line - even if it's at the insulting level of what time she comes in on matchdays, what she says when interviewed and whether she responds to emails, she does exercise her judgement as the club's most senior employee and that judgement appears to be almost invariably wrong.
Excellent result for sure, but surprised across the various threads that this seems to be seen by some as the turning of the corner. It's one game, just as MK Dons was one game. Hard to believe that almost overnight an inept CEO has become a good one and a manager with almost no experience has become the answer. Let's be prepared to accept we were wrong in a month or two, and in the meantime keep up the pressure.
Sheffield Wednesday were not as prepared as Preston or Brentford were, and they gave us an easy time. When we play other teams we will properly be tested, does anybody think Birmingham away is going to be an 'after you Jeeves' thing with Rowett in charge of a resurgent club?
Yesterday was great, and those points might well come in handy rather than no points at all, but the only convincer on this is to win every single game from the next 9 which are:
Birminghan A Ipswich H Brighton A Leeds H Bolton H Burnley A Bristol City A Wolves H Forest H
Those are the fixtures up to the FA Cup third round.
Rowett, McCarthy, Hughton, Dyche, Jacket, Evans are amongst the managers we are facing, you can't tell me they won't research us, and be set up to do as much damage as possible, something Wednesday lacked yesterday.
We only have scouting of opposition on an ad hoc basis now, presumably a trusted ex-pro tells Fraeye what's what about what we're going to face. Except that Fraeye will not have the contacts or the local knowledge to suss out any kind of trusted ex-pro to give him a thorough low down.
Fraeye would be better off getting Tutt Tutt to scout because at least Tutt Tutt cares about the welfare of Charlton.
As I have said, win those nine matches listed above and the words, exhortations, explanations and excuses and such like, might just begin to gain some credibility.
Who's to say that Karel will still be in charge though....?
The fans - who contribute a large share of the running costs - have a right to expect the club to be run by professionally competent and suitably experienced managers, who show respect to the supporters, individually and collectively.
I accept owners will always make decisions fans don't like, but I don't recognise their right to run the club into the ground and if they do so they should expect resistance.
So from that we can deduce that she is not a CEO. So why get so upset about her not doing her job if we can all see she is just RDs mouthpiece.
She's not a chief executive, but she's not without any authority simply by virtue of the fact that RD cannot possibly make every decision on the ground, any more than he can tell the players when to shoot or pass the ball during a match.
Wherever you draw the line - even if it's at the insulting level of what time she comes in on matchdays, what she says when interviewed and whether she responds to emails, she does exercise her judgement as the club's most senior employee and that judgement appears to be almost invariably wrong.
So from that we can deduce that she is not a CEO. So why get so upset about her not doing her job if we can all see she is just RDs mouthpiece.
She's not a chief executive, but she's not without any authority simply by virtue of the fact that RD cannot possibly make every decision on the ground, any more than he can tell the players when to shoot or pass the ball during a match.
Wherever you draw the line - even if it's at the insulting level of what time she comes in on matchdays, what she says when interviewed and whether she responds to emails, she does exercise her judgement as the club's most senior employee and that judgement appears to be almost invariably wrong.
Says in the programme she is CEO?
Indeed, which invites us to assess her against the characteristics of that role. However, many have questioned whether she in fact exercises such authority and I therefore give her the benefit of that doubt. Either way, she's failing.
It doesn't invite us to assess anything, only RD can assess that! if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
Can only the head coach assess the players? And only the catering manager assess the number of chips served?
As "customers" of the business we're totally entitled to assess the CEO's performance, against the role that they are described as being employed to perform.
Step forward all Charlton fans who have never screwed up...
Katrien doesn't need a bloody white knight. She's an adult in a high powered, high pressure job and she's cocking it up. She's getting told that and she's doing nothing to arrest it. All these people popping up crying 'leave the lassie alone' aren't helping her or the club. But I bet it makes you feel great.
How would you know, did Richard Murray tell you this in person?
I could imagine the response when a employee tries to tell his/her boss with a god complex - on how his business needs to run.
It doesn't invite us to assess anything, only RD can assess that! if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
People have always had views about those running the club and always will. If we are told she is chief executive that is an invitation to appraise her against that job title. I am acknowledging the widely held view that she should not be judged on that basis, but she is still the only executive unless you take the view there is none. That is unrealistic, in my view. Grapevine49 has covered this subject well.
In answer to your second question. I can't imagine working for this regime or them employing me, but the very wide range of people protesting yesterday might suggest the issue is somewhat bigger than that.
So is she a CEO or a puppet? As a CEO what would be her role?
Well here's a wiki entry that I think covers the bulk of it.
'Typically, the CEO/MD has responsibilities as a director, decision maker, leader, manager and executor. The communicator role can involve the press and the rest of the outside world, as well as the organization's management and employees; the decision-making role involves high-level decisions about policy and strategy. As a leader of the company, the CEO/MD advises the board of directors, motivates employees, and drives change within the organization.'
If the above is a fair reflection of what you'd expect a CEO to be doing, then I don't think she is very good at her job.
I don't think that is her job. She is a puppet of the owner. That is why she has been so quiet. She can't promise the fans anything as she has no idea whether they wil be met or not. The only thing she can do is run the club on a day to day basis and to be honest, from tickets to mascots to selling the programmes, she has shown herself to be out of her depth.
So is she a CEO or a puppet? As a CEO what would be her role?
Well here's a wiki entry that I think covers the bulk of it.
'Typically, the CEO/MD has responsibilities as a director, decision maker, leader, manager and executor. The communicator role can involve the press and the rest of the outside world, as well as the organization's management and employees; the decision-making role involves high-level decisions about policy and strategy. As a leader of the company, the CEO/MD advises the board of directors, motivates employees, and drives change within the organization.'
If the above is a fair reflection of what you'd expect a CEO to be doing, then I don't think she is very good at her job.
I don't think that is her job. She is a puppet of the owner. That is why she has been so quiet. She can't promise the fans anything as she has no idea whether they will be met or not. All she can say, is what she has said in the past - you have to like it or lump it as Duchatelet will do as he pleases! The only thing she can do is run the club on a day to day basis and to be honest, from tickets to mascots to selling the programmes, she has shown herself to be out of her depth.
It doesn't invite us to assess anything, only RD can assess that! if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
Consider it customer feed back. Progressive organisations use the complaints process to indicate where the company is going wrong and drive improvements.
It doesn't invite us to assess anything, only RD can assess that! if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
Can only the head coach assess the players? And only the catering manager assess the number of chips served?
As "customers" of the business we're totally entitled to assess the CEO's performance, against the role that they are described as being employed to perform.
Have to agree with this. We were told we were building a better tomorrow together, but if together means anything it means that the fans should have some respect and some influence beyond only shelling out.
It doesn't invite us to assess anything, only RD can assess that! if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
Can only the head coach assess the players? And only the catering manager assess the number of chips served?
As "customers" of the business we're totally entitled to assess the CEO's performance, against the role that they are described as being employed to perform.
Have to agree with this. We were told we were building a better tomorrow together, but if together means anything it means that the fans should have some respect and some influence beyond only shelling out.
Indeed. In my view whether she is a real, de facto CEO or meirly RD's puppet, is neither here nor there. The business NEEDS an actual CEO making CORRECT decisions on a day-to-day basis. Experience shows you could pluck a five-year old kid out of school who could make a better fist of it. If you asked said kid to say yes or no they'd get the answer right 50% of the time just by guessing. She down to around 10% at the moment. That tells you everything you need to know.
I didn't make any use of my season ticket yesterday - purely because things have been so "meh" lately, and I have other things demanding my time (having very recently moved house I've got a lot to sort out).
I've never been able to make every home game anyway - but lately has just has seemed like 90 minutes of my life I'll never get back every time I have turned up.
Hopefully we have turned a corner - but it's going to take more than a little new interim manager bounce to lift the mood and lift the club out of the relegation zone.
Will endeavour to be at the next home game but will certainly not be shelling out for anything within the ground - no programme and will bring a flask of coffee and some McVities I think....
It may look like I am splitting hairs here to some readers, but we have never had a "real" CEO, and neither have most other British football clubs. A real CEO is ultimately responsible for, and measured by, delivery of profit against agreed targets. That means in turn leading the maximisation of the revenue side. At most football clubs the biggest single chunk of extra revenue which helps the club achieve its goals (whatever they are defined as) and avoid insolvency, is the money it gets from the owner. While that is the case, the best you can call the job KM is doing (and what PV was doing, BTW, as I often pointed out) is General Manager. Doesn't sound so sexy, does it? Of course nowadays all kinds of public sector charlatans have had themselves designated "CEO"s, and then argued for salaries comparable to those in the private sector. Take the LLDC, for example...
The upshot of that is that fundamentally the issues we have are with the owner, and can only ultimately be resolved by him. If he refuses to engage directly, then the best we can do is engage with the person to whom he has delegated the task.
All that being the case, I believe aggressive demands for KM to be dismissed are counter-productive. Demands that stupid decisions should be reversed, and lessons learnt, certainly should be forcefully put. But that's a different matter and requires a different set of tactics.
I think we could in effect replace Katrien with Sooty, or at the moment with the lack of communication perhaps Sweep would be better suited. At least the kids will be happy and Roland will keep his hand warm.
It's all about choices Those who joined in with the protest I thought deserved credit(OK there were a few knobs there just to be abusive for the sake of it)but I thought it was passionate and got a bit of media coverage as well Lots went straight to their seats and ignored the protest their choice maybee they are happy with the way things are going One thing I don't agree is no point did she have bottle or front the crowd All she did was take photos was she right or wrong to do this ? One things for sure we have moved a step forward Saturday in the right direction in many ways let's keep the momentum going on and off the pitch I'm waiting with baited breath to see what Rd next moves are?
Might explain it, so we should not take her Grin personal.
Maybe I'm slightly too old school but personally I think that openly filming people is a fairly confrontational act anyway, maybe she laughed through nervousness, maybe due to the witty repartee of the security guards, maybe it was a belly laugh at the futility of the fans' protests. Putting herself in the position which leads to us having the debate is pretty foolish though. There is no legitimate reason for her to walk to the window and film, if she needed footage then maybe her security guard could have stood down from his comedy routine and filmed it for her.
I don't buy into this becoming personal, I abhor bullying and think that we need to be very careful to ensure that we stray nowhere near that territory. I think that it is fair to comment upon her actions and judgments in a professional capacity but bullying and petty name calling will only lose us the argument.
Based on her actions, her interviews and quantifiable results, Katrien is not making a great fist of running this club however and that needs to change in one of two ways. She either needs to give it up and go or she needs to genuinely engage with the fans in order to start to win their trust. It's frustratingly simple to keep the majority of Charlton's illogically loyal fans happy. You first spend time understanding what is important to them and then you ensure that you protect it and show respect to it. You ensure that they feel like they are still vested in the club and that you do not openly present them as a liability rather than your greatest asset. That alone will win you an inordinate amount of patience from them in terms of making mistakes as you learn how to successfully run a Championship football club. And given the amount of learning still to be done, there's a lot of patience that needs to be accrued.
Do not presume to tell the fans what they like, or that they are wrong in their tastes or that they misunderstand what the club is about. Do not put up hollow posters about building a future together and then proceed to ignore and publicly disrespect them. Do not think that they can be replaced by new fans that are attracted by silly sofas, DJs or cheerleaders.
Why fight against the tide of the fans when it's so much easier to bring them along with you?
There is a chance, albeit a small one, that something positive could come of this crisis but only if there is a wholesale change in the attitude of the owner and his staff. Football is an emotional sport, fans are an emotional bunch, for many their attachment to the club is a heavy contributor in defining who they are, it's brought their families closer, it's given them the best and worst of days, it's probably the basis of their internet passwords, source of some of their earliest memories and one of the first things they'll share with new people that they meet. All of these emotions can be a pain to deal with but they can be your greatest asset too as there is a hardcore of custom that will prop up your revenues irrespective of the quality of your product. If only you treat them properly.
Do not presume that the fanbase are anything other than essential to a successful football club, without them it all falls apart.
Comments
Yesterday was great, and those points might well come in handy rather than no points at all, but the only convincer on this is to win every single game from the next 9 which are:
Birminghan A
Ipswich H
Brighton A
Leeds H
Bolton H
Burnley A
Bristol City A
Wolves H
Forest H
Those are the fixtures up to the FA Cup third round.
Rowett, McCarthy, Hughton, Dyche, Jacket, Evans are amongst the managers we are facing, you can't tell me they won't research us, and be set up to do as much damage as possible, something Wednesday lacked yesterday.
We only have scouting of opposition on an ad hoc basis now, presumably a trusted ex-pro tells Fraeye what's what about what we're going to face. Except that Fraeye will not have the contacts or the local knowledge to suss out any kind of trusted ex-pro to give him a thorough low down.
Fraeye would be better off getting Tutt Tutt to scout because at least Tutt Tutt cares about the welfare of Charlton.
As I have said, win those nine matches listed above and the words, exhortations, explanations and excuses and such like, might just begin to gain some credibility.
Wherever you draw the line - even if it's at the insulting level of what time she comes in on matchdays, what she says when interviewed and whether she responds to emails, she does exercise her judgement as the club's most senior employee and that judgement appears to be almost invariably wrong.
A CEO of that description earlier in the history that she despises so much got plenty of criticism for non- performance as I recall.
I'm just confused over what everyone is asking for?
The fans - who contribute a large share of the running costs - have a right to expect the club to be run by professionally competent and suitably experienced managers, who show respect to the supporters, individually and collectively.
I accept owners will always make decisions fans don't like, but I don't recognise their right to run the club into the ground and if they do so they should expect resistance.
if you were offered a position at the club again, would you take them up on it?
And only the catering manager assess the number of chips served?
As "customers" of the business we're totally entitled to assess the CEO's performance, against the role that they are described as being employed to perform.
In answer to your second question. I can't imagine working for this regime or them employing me, but the very wide range of people protesting yesterday might suggest the issue is somewhat bigger than that.
I didn't make any use of my season ticket yesterday - purely because things have been so "meh" lately, and I have other things demanding my time (having very recently moved house I've got a lot to sort out).
I've never been able to make every home game anyway - but lately has just has seemed like 90 minutes of my life I'll never get back every time I have turned up.
Hopefully we have turned a corner - but it's going to take more than a little new interim manager bounce to lift the mood and lift the club out of the relegation zone.
Will endeavour to be at the next home game but will certainly not be shelling out for anything within the ground - no programme and will bring a flask of coffee and some McVities I think....
The upshot of that is that fundamentally the issues we have are with the owner, and can only ultimately be resolved by him. If he refuses to engage directly, then the best we can do is engage with the person to whom he has delegated the task.
All that being the case, I believe aggressive demands for KM to be dismissed are counter-productive. Demands that stupid decisions should be reversed, and lessons learnt, certainly should be forcefully put. But that's a different matter and requires a different set of tactics.
Those who joined in with the protest I thought deserved credit(OK there were a few knobs there just to be abusive for the sake of it)but I thought it was passionate and got a bit of media coverage as well
Lots went straight to their seats and ignored the protest their choice maybee they are happy with the way things are going
One thing I don't agree is no point did she have bottle or front the crowd
All she did was take photos was she right or wrong to do this ?
One things for sure we have moved a step forward Saturday in the right direction in many ways let's keep the momentum going on and off the pitch
I'm waiting with baited breath to see what Rd next moves are?
I don't buy into this becoming personal, I abhor bullying and think that we need to be very careful to ensure that we stray nowhere near that territory. I think that it is fair to comment upon her actions and judgments in a professional capacity but bullying and petty name calling will only lose us the argument.
Based on her actions, her interviews and quantifiable results, Katrien is not making a great fist of running this club however and that needs to change in one of two ways. She either needs to give it up and go or she needs to genuinely engage with the fans in order to start to win their trust. It's frustratingly simple to keep the majority of Charlton's illogically loyal fans happy. You first spend time understanding what is important to them and then you ensure that you protect it and show respect to it. You ensure that they feel like they are still vested in the club and that you do not openly present them as a liability rather than your greatest asset. That alone will win you an inordinate amount of patience from them in terms of making mistakes as you learn how to successfully run a Championship football club. And given the amount of learning still to be done, there's a lot of patience that needs to be accrued.
Do not presume to tell the fans what they like, or that they are wrong in their tastes or that they misunderstand what the club is about. Do not put up hollow posters about building a future together and then proceed to ignore and publicly disrespect them. Do not think that they can be replaced by new fans that are attracted by silly sofas, DJs or cheerleaders.
Why fight against the tide of the fans when it's so much easier to bring them along with you?
There is a chance, albeit a small one, that something positive could come of this crisis but only if there is a wholesale change in the attitude of the owner and his staff. Football is an emotional sport, fans are an emotional bunch, for many their attachment to the club is a heavy contributor in defining who they are, it's brought their families closer, it's given them the best and worst of days, it's probably the basis of their internet passwords, source of some of their earliest memories and one of the first things they'll share with new people that they meet. All of these emotions can be a pain to deal with but they can be your greatest asset too as there is a hardcore of custom that will prop up your revenues irrespective of the quality of your product. If only you treat them properly.
Do not presume that the fanbase are anything other than essential to a successful football club, without them it all falls apart.