Formula 1 Thread

lordromford

Respectfully, could Seth and anyone arguing with him pack it in please?

This thread has had some fiery arguments in the past, but it’s generally been about the racing. 

I’d hate for the thread to be closed because of other arguments becoming personal and crossing the line.

killerandflash

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

However farcical the final lap was, it would be even worse for the sport if the result was reversed in the courts.

lordromford

CAFCsayer said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said: 

ValleyGary said:

Literally like giving a losing football team a pen in the last min to make it more exciting. Absolutely shocking you need to make up rules to make a sport more entertaining.

It's worse than that, it's like a team being 2-0 up in the champions league final with 10 minutes to go and the ref saying 'well this is petering out, let's have a penalty shoot out' to decide the winner.

And the team that were 2-0 up are only allowed to take penalties with their weaker foot

Or play in their socks. 😂

PrincessFiona

killerandflash said:

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

However farcical the final lap was, it would be even worse for the sport if the result was reversed in the courts.

I have no idea what the final outcome will be, but I think there could be various appeals and actions that mean the final result isn't confirmed for a while

JiMMy 85

seth plum said:

JiMMy 85 said:

seth plum said:

To me, admittedly ignorant of the finer points of the sport, the shenanigans at the start when Lewis Hamilton took a short cut was balanced out by the shenanigans at the end.
Max Verstappen is a worthy world champion because he was brave enough to visit Kwik fit when Hamilton stayed out on the track.
I like Hamilton and wanted him to win, but there is some compensation that the ultra nationalists are pissed off.

That's not how it works, and those issues are not comparable. 

I have said I am not familiar with the finer points of the rules.
As an interested observer it felt like karma that the beginning shenanigans were balanced by the ending shenanigans.

Seth, I don't know much about why people call you a WUM or whatever, I'm not on the board enough to know about that stuff. I only know the nice chap I've bumped into a few times outside the ground. So I can be sincere with you here - the issue at the start of the race probably should have gone the other way but with the speed LH was running at I doubt it would have made much different over the course of the race. Lewis was way, way quicker. Max had nothing but strategy and luck to help him and none of that had worked out for him. At least until what happened at the end, which was an insane decision by the race director that was purely designed to give the 'sport' the grandstand finish they craved for the sake of long-term marketing. 

There is no karma involved. It was just one questionable decision after another, with one of those decisions wiping out a well-deserved lead.

As an aside, I've long thought that the post-safety car restart should see the order restored, kind of like how the contestants started at the final assault course on Gladiators! 

Scratchingvalleycat

Daddy_Pig said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Regardless of what he said publicly (and full credit to him as he will have gained a lot of admirers) you can bet your life Hamilton would've been fucking raging off camera. Didn't he question during the race that it was a risk to not bring him in for new tyres?

As an aside though regarding the 'only letting 5 cars unlap themselves' fiasco whilst i understand the argument that it should've been all of them or none of them, why are people so angry about this? If they'd all done it then wouldn't we still have had a one lap race with Max on fresh tyres?

The time it would have taken for them to overtake would have meant the last lap would have been under safety car. It was a decision made to have a last lap race

Masi could have taken a decision to not let any of the lapped cars overtake  and had a last lap race, but he decided to let only some past bringing Verstappen to a position immediately behind Hamilton and then have a last lap race. That is how the race was decided.
Not in the Rules and Liberty Media  cannot be happy with having the race decided in this way since it is not a good  advertisement for the sporting element of the race in the USA .
What would have been fair with so few laps remaining would have been for Michael Massi to immediately Red Flag the race after the  Latifi crash, allow all the cars into the pit lane and  give both sides the opportunity to change their tyres and to do a standing start for the last four laps. This has happened in the past and provided good racing. 
Bizarre decision making by the race director

sam3110

Would have been interesting if they redflagged and had a restart on the grid with 5 laps to go

ValleyGary

The stewards decided that Hamilton was forced off track by Verstappens reckless driving at the Apex with a late lunge. The race director made up a new rule that allowed Verstappen to win the race and the world title.

There is a huge difference.

MarcusH26

DamoNorthStand said:

The Hamilton’s (father and son) have come out of this incredibly well. Lewis is at the tail end of his career and I would be perfectly happy if he called it a day now but he received genuine acknowledgment from the British public and the hate from some quarters stopped now. He can’t do anymore to prove his character than he has done today.

Lewis and Anthony were excellent after the race . I reckon one more year to see how the new regs go and to almost mentor George and then he'll call it quits. Can't see him doing a Nico and bowing out now. 

Chris_from_Sidcup

killerandflash said:

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

However farcical the final lap was, it would be even worse for the sport if the result was reversed in the courts.

Agree with this, they'll never overturn it as it'll make them look even more stupid.

Result will stand and Masi will probably just be sacked

sam3110

In fact, I'm absolutely amazed Masi didn't go down that route, would have given him the grandstand finish he clearly wanted, and given both drivers the opportunity to change tyres, and would have eliminated the problem with the lapped cars

lordromford

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

I partially agree. 

However, if they overturn in Mercedes’ favour, they’ll have acknowledged that the safety car should’ve stayed out and the only correct outcome then would be Hamilton winning.

At the end of the day, the safety car absolutely, by the rules, should’ve done another lap. I can’t see how any other conclusion can be reached, but I just don’t think it’ll happen.

seth plum

Surely one factor was the crash of the car (Williams) near the end of the race.
That looked like a driving error, not a contrive happenstance that was a deliberate ploy of any kind.
If the Williams car had not crashed then presumably Lewis Hamilton would’ve won.
I don’t think Red Bull or the race authorities engineered that crash, surely it was one of the vagaries of sport?

lordromford

killerandflash said:

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

However farcical the final lap was, it would be even worse for the sport if the result was reversed in the courts.

Again, that’s on Masi.
He’s fucked the finale of a great season. You can’t “unfuck” it.
The FIA can’t come out of this looking good, so they should at least make the result correct.



They won’t though. 😂

sam3110

I would like to see Formula 1 adopt Nascar's stance on restarts, where they try to end the race on a "Green, White, Chequered" sequence, with 2 laps of hard racing at the end of the race to determine the winner, in situations like this. People may claim it's too fake etc but it's no more artificial than the DRS IMO

Lordflashheart

So on the Mercedes protest - this is the most complicated sport in the world - so many variables (on track action, engines, crashes, safety cars, suspension, aero etc etc) - the rules will never cater for every eventuality (unlike football, where IMO everything is pretty clear cut, apart from a game where Trevor Kettle is Ref 😉)

I posted earlier how lapped cars will un-lap themselves - I read it as you either un-lap ALL cars, or you DON’T un-lap any cars

But my Brother is a barrister - I emailed him the FIA regs on this 

Long story short - it’s so badly written, and full of holes (using a legal brain) forget it 

😢

Gary Poole

@bobmunro I’m assuming bookies will have already paid out on Max winning both the race and the title? What happens if the result is reversed on any appeal?

sam3110

lordromford said:

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

I partially agree. 

However, if they overturn in Mercedes’ favour, they’ll have acknowledged that the safety car should’ve stayed out and the only correct outcome then would be Hamilton winning.

At the end of the day, the safety car absolutely, by the rules, should’ve done another lap. I can’t see how any other conclusion can be reached, but I just don’t think it’ll happen.

Why should the safety car have done another lap? 

What should have happened was the lapped cars allowed through, all of them, on the lap before they eventually let some of them through, or at the very least earlier on in that same lap. That way, all of them would have through and there would have been enough time for the Safety Car to still come in

DamoNorthStand

I don’t like the Mercedes protest. Lewis and his family took the result with dignity.

But I have no doubt Masi will go this winter. Most probably off his own back.

lordromford

sam3110 said:

Would have been interesting if they redflagged and had a restart on the grid with 5 laps to go

sam3110 said:

In fact, I'm absolutely amazed Masi didn't go down that route, would have given him the grandstand finish he clearly wanted, and given both drivers the opportunity to change tyres, and would have eliminated the problem with the lapped cars

100% agree.
Hamilton would’ve been desperately unlucky, but tyres would’ve been the same and if Verstappen won, he’d have won fairly.

Verstappen absolutely not at fault and, as much as I dislike his demeanour and personality, he’s a deserving champion. But not like this. It’s a tragic end to an incredibly entertaining season.

ForeverAddickted

lordromford said:

sam3110 said:

Would have been interesting if they redflagged and had a restart on the grid with 5 laps to go

sam3110 said:

In fact, I'm absolutely amazed Masi didn't go down that route, would have given him the grandstand finish he clearly wanted, and given both drivers the opportunity to change tyres, and would have eliminated the problem with the lapped cars

100% agree.
Hamilton would’ve been desperately unlucky, but tyres would’ve been the same and if Verstappen won, he’d have won fairly.

Verstappen absolutely not at fault and, as much as I dislike his demeanour and personality, he’s a deserving champion. But not like this. It’s a tragic end to an incredibly entertaining season.

Yeah feel sorry for Max as the one title he's going to win is always going to be slightly overshadowed

WSS

Gary Poole said:

@bobmunro I’m assuming bookies will have already paid out on Max winning both the race and the title? What happens if the result is reversed on any appeal?

Paddy Power, unsurprisingly, have paid out on both results.

SomervilleAddick

sam3110 said:

I would like to see Formula 1 adopt Nascar's stance on restarts, where they try to end the race on a "Green, White, Chequered" sequence, with 2 laps of hard racing at the end of the race to determine the winner, in situations like this. People may claim it's too fake etc but it's no more artificial than the DRS IMO

If they’re going to do that, they should also close the pits under yellow until the cars have bunched, giving everyone an equal shot a tyre changes. You can lose a place, but if you do it’s because your stop was slower than the other team. Watching 20 F1 cars all hit the pits at the same time would be interesting 

BR7_addick

I do not follow F1 at all so go easy here please, but why do some people hate Lewis Hamilton?  What am I missing?  I naively just support anyone English in all sports so am a bit confused.

MarcusH26

I just think Masi needs to go over this whole season. No consistency that leaves everyone guessing and some of the team radio antics with Mercedes and Red Bull all came across as very odd for a Race Director.

Don't think this goes all the way to the CAS to be decided, at least I hope it doesn't.

lordromford

ForeverAddickted said:

lordromford said:

sam3110 said:

Would have been interesting if they redflagged and had a restart on the grid with 5 laps to go

sam3110 said:

In fact, I'm absolutely amazed Masi didn't go down that route, would have given him the grandstand finish he clearly wanted, and given both drivers the opportunity to change tyres, and would have eliminated the problem with the lapped cars

100% agree.
Hamilton would’ve been desperately unlucky, but tyres would’ve been the same and if Verstappen won, he’d have won fairly.

Verstappen absolutely not at fault and, as much as I dislike his demeanour and personality, he’s a deserving champion. But not like this. It’s a tragic end to an incredibly entertaining season.

Yeah feel sorry for Max as the one title he's going to win is always going to be slightly overshadowed

Not sure I’d go so far as say “I feel sorry for him”! 😂

bobmunro

WSS said:

Gary Poole said:

@bobmunro I’m assuming bookies will have already paid out on Max winning both the race and the title? What happens if the result is reversed on any appeal?

Paddy Power, unsurprisingly, have paid out on both results.

The majority of bookmakers will, if the result is overturned. Paddy just using it for PR.

stevexreeve

Is there an App where the public can vote for the winner.

Might be a fairer way than letting the stewards decide!

lordromford

sam3110 said:

lordromford said:

sam3110 said:

Lose lose situation in Mercedes' protest. 

Painted as sore losers, and all I can see is them either throwing out the appeal, or agreeing with them and discounting the race from the championship, either outcome sees Max as WDC. If they decide anything else (like taking the race result from the standings at the time of the incident that led to the SC) then Red Bull will then counter appeal

I partially agree. 

However, if they overturn in Mercedes’ favour, they’ll have acknowledged that the safety car should’ve stayed out and the only correct outcome then would be Hamilton winning.

At the end of the day, the safety car absolutely, by the rules, should’ve done another lap. I can’t see how any other conclusion can be reached, but I just don’t think it’ll happen.

Why should the safety car have done another lap? 

What should have happened was the lapped cars allowed through, all of them, on the lap before they eventually let some of them through, or at the very least earlier on in that same lap. That way, all of them would have through and there would have been enough time for the Safety Car to still come in

Because that’s what the rule book says. The safety car comes in at the end of the next lap.
You're right that, if he wanted to unlap the cars to make a race of it, he should’ve done it earlier and let all of them through. But he didn’t. 

sam3110

stevexreeve said:

Is there an App where the public can vote for the winner.

Might be a fairer way than letting the stewards decide!

On that basis Kimi would have won the race today