last two posts are spot on. how do we know any other owner would be better? would you want a new owner who sees £££ signs in The Valley and moves us to the Peninsula or elsewhere? imo we are in general, definately financially, in a better state under RD than we were under the Two Spivs.
last two posts are spot on. how do we know any other owner would be better? would you want a new owner who sees £££ signs in The Valley and moves us to the Peninsula or elsewhere? imo we are in general, definately financially, in a better state under RD than we were under the Two Spivs.
So by that logic, would you not leave your job that you hated just in case the next job turned out to be even worse? Would you not complain about the terrible meal you were served in case they brought you something even more inedible next time round? Would you quietly tolerate the dodge pint of lager in case there was a turd floating round in the replacement pint?
last two posts are spot on. how do we know any other owner would be better? would you want a new owner who sees £££ signs in The Valley and moves us to the Peninsula or elsewhere? imo we are in general, definately financially, in a better state under RD than we were under the Two Spivs.
Of course we are, that's a no brainer. There was no money left under TJ and Slater so we are obviously more stable financially. But what has it meant in real terms? What have we gained? We are still languishing around the bottom of the table with a squad that isn't good enough for the division. Ok we aren't in threat of bankruptcy, but if RD doesn't start managing it properly we could end up slipping down a division again and then the cash will start to fall away. The very fact that RD doesn't want to put money in now tells me that he would be even less inclined to do so when the club losses are growing and his investment is going down the pan.
there is need for a meeting as there is a divide within the fan base, this is quite normal when you think of transfers managers and style and would not need a meeting to clear the situation up,
but right now it seems there's 3 camps
1 don't believe the club is in jeopardy although they would wish for more stability with regards to mgmt turn over and player recruitment
2 that the club is filling the squad with dodgy foreign imports that only mean we are a network feeder or dumping ground and that its unacceptable and we will get relegated with these loads of dodgy Belgium footballers
3 that the clubs heart and soul has gone its in danger of becoming laughing stock within football and that RD in control will cause us severe harm in the long run
until there is cohesion in the complaint then nothing can be done ,
asking for a demo against norwich before this meeting and on the day we are meant to show respect to a proper charlton mans passing is not the way to do it imo
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
4% of average wealth, not income, would be more accurate. If average wealth is average house value, say £250k it's more like spending £10k out of income of £26k. Otherwise you sell your house take £10k out and buy a smaller house. It's all relative, but I don't think he would be that relaxed about losing his investment.
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
Don't forget that in RD's books, CAFC will still be an asset valued at pretty much what he paid for it. Buying the club had no impact whatsoever on him. (Maybe he's even made money on paper if he's done a book adjustment for the upgrades to the pitch/stadium.)
I guess his expenditure will just be whatever he loses each year - maybe £5mn - and perhaps that will be tax deductible.
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
4% of average wealth, not income, would be more accurate. If average wealth is average house value, say £250k it's more like spending £10k out of income of £26k. Otherwise you sell your house take £10k out and buy a smaller house. It's all relative, but I don't think he would be that relaxed about losing his investment.
Agree. Consequently, he's not going to want to see CAFC slide down the leagues and significantly devalue his investment (hence Luzon's appointment is probably genuinely what he considers to be in the interests of the Club). On the other hand, he appears to be sufficiently wealthy that he's unlikely to be persuaded to change his plan or sell the Club as a result of a ST strike.
What I do not get is all the discussion going on, on this thread, It is quiet simple a public meeting has been called for so fans can voice their concerns, if the fans who are happy with the present situation turn up and listen, I am sure they will be allowed to defend their views. Coming on here as a keyboard warrior with probably no intention of going to the meeting makes no sense. Perhaps the mood of the fans has been overestimated, but unless this is demonstrated by people in person at this meeting we will never know.
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
If only he'd tell us eh?
Personally I'm not far from your thinking. If RD wants to prove a theory right and be successful and break even then I doubt there's anyone who wouldn't sign up to that. If his execution isn't working, then it would be in his interests - even his philosophical interests - to listen to those who think they can help him achieve it but perhaps in a different way.
For me, assuming the vision is sound, it's the execution of his strategy that's awry. If we can influence it so that he achieves an aim that we can buy into, then that's the holy grail for me. Owner succeeding, club identity preserved, supporters involved. Why not?
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
4% of average wealth, not income, would be more accurate. If average wealth is average house value, say £250k it's more like spending £10k out of income of £26k. Otherwise you sell your house take £10k out and buy a smaller house. It's all relative, but I don't think he would be that relaxed about losing his investment.
Agree. Consequently, he's not going to want to see CAFC slide down the leagues and significantly devalue his investment (hence Luzon's appointment is probably genuinely what he considers to be in the interests of the Club). On the other hand, he appears to be sufficiently wealthy that he's unlikely to be persuaded to change his plan or sell the Club as a result of a ST strike.
The club or the network? Same difference or an important distinction? RD has said that he expects his clubs to operate autonomously, but presumably to the same vision and agreed way of working. It strikes me that three coaches now have got frustrated with that way of working. Luzon appears to be a very different kettle of fish, someone who is prepared to be RD's yes man. Time will tell, because success at a Championship club could be the making of the man - but surely he's only here because he's already on the payroll (another cost-focused decision).
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
4% of average wealth, not income, would be more accurate. If average wealth is average house value, say £250k it's more like spending £10k out of income of £26k. Otherwise you sell your house take £10k out and buy a smaller house. It's all relative, but I don't think he would be that relaxed about losing his investment.
Agree. Consequently, he's not going to want to see CAFC slide down the leagues and significantly devalue his investment (hence Luzon's appointment is probably genuinely what he considers to be in the interests of the Club). On the other hand, he appears to be sufficiently wealthy that he's unlikely to be persuaded to change his plan or sell the Club as a result of a ST strike.
Income /wealth it's still peanuts to him. If he lost all of his investment in Charlton I think it would hurt his ego more than his pocket. We are his analytical minds experiment. A relatively cheap way of amusing himself. Just like his dabble in politics.
He is a business tycoon. Thinks he has made his money by his intellect and cunning when it was really by luck, using cheap labour, overpricing etc. A real James Bond villain character.
He is a business tycoon. Thinks he has made his money by his intellect and cunning when it was really by luck, using cheap labour, overpricing etc. A real James Bond villain character.
Call me old fashioned, but all I want is one club, one owner and one team pulling in the same direction - striving to be the best it can be.
This for me is football, its sport, its the essence of competition. All this network sharing stuff is a mediocre, watered down, namby pamby, inferior version of the real thing.
Yes the heart and soul is being ripped out of the club.
There seems to be an assumption that he will want CAFC to succeed because that will make him money. I am also sure that if Plan A - promotion etc - does not succeed, and it looks likely it won't - then there are multiple ways he can use losses at Charlton for tax gains to offset against profits elsewhere. And as with most businessmen who are things for cash alone, he is likely to get bored quickly ... it's not as if he doesn't have other clubs to keep him amused.
I'm sure RD doesn't like losing money but let's look a bit closer at that. Depending on where you get your figure of Duchatelets wealth it ranges from £500 million to significantly more than that. The £20 million RD has invested in us is what ? 4% of the £500 million figure. On that sort of basis we are a hobby or as suggested an experiment. The average national wage in the UK is £26k. 4% of that is £1040. A sum any hobbyist might be happy to lose on his little indulgence. It's an insignificant sum if he sees it as a way of trying out his ideas. Seeing if he can buck the football trend. If he can't then so what. Its small potatoes and he either loses interest and allows us to fall into decline or hopefully in that scenario sells us.
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
4% of average wealth, not income, would be more accurate. If average wealth is average house value, say £250k it's more like spending £10k out of income of £26k. Otherwise you sell your house take £10k out and buy a smaller house. It's all relative, but I don't think he would be that relaxed about losing his investment.
Agree. Consequently, he's not going to want to see CAFC slide down the leagues and significantly devalue his investment (hence Luzon's appointment is probably genuinely what he considers to be in the interests of the Club). On the other hand, he appears to be sufficiently wealthy that he's unlikely to be persuaded to change his plan or sell the Club as a result of a ST strike.
The club or the network? Same difference or an important distinction? RD has said that he expects his clubs to operate autonomously, but presumably to the same vision and agreed way of working. It strikes me that three coaches now have got frustrated with that way of working. Luzon appears to be a very different kettle of fish, someone who is prepared to be RD's yes man. Time will tell, because success at a Championship club could be the making of the man - but surely he's only here because he's already on the payroll (another cost-focused decision).
Take your point Chief but if we could turn the clock back 8 years, I'd have welcomed a few more cost-focussed decisions by the Club. Even if he is a "loyal retainer" and a cost-effective option, that does not mean that RD has appointed him with indifference to the Club's performances and league status.
I do not think the supporters have too much of an influence over owners, apart from public unrest of the club will deter potential owners. I think we believe RD is not running Charlton as we believe he should. As supporters we are in a good position to judge and are entitled to have a view on a "asset" that we have incredible amounts of emotional investment in. We can all see a number of the network players are not good enough, a " proper" manager would know their capabilities before allowing them to join. There does not seem the CAFC " spirit" - we can all name players but where are the John Robinsons, Richard Refus's, mark Kinselas, we can all name them. I feel only Johnny Jackson falls anywhere near that type. Many look like "it's this weeks job"
To get RD to listen? To get RD out? To smoke out a new buyer?
as with UKIP I get a feeling I know what you're against, I just have no idea what your campaigning for
exactly, which is why I hope to go the the meeting ... at this stage it's very unclear ... my assumption is that these types of issues will be the main focus of the meeting.
Do we need to do anything or not? ... personally, I am still not fully convinced of the timing, but readily admit I am nowhere near as relaxed as I was a year ago.
To get RD to listen? To get RD out? To smoke out a new buyer?
as with UKIP I get a feeling I know what you're against, I just have no idea what your campaigning for
exactly, which is why I hope to go the the meeting ... at this stage it's very unclear ... my assumption is that these types of issues will be the main focus of the meeting.
Do we need to do anything or not? ... personally, I am still not fully convinced of the timing, but readily admit I am nowhere near as relaxed as I was a year ago.
Reading this thread and the Jimmy Stone thread (all posts!), I'm convinced for now that the healthiest outcome we can go for is more information. I remember the earliest back to the Valley public meetings and though the momentum was strong and eventually effective, we had people shouting, singing, arguing and going in circles. We can already see what some of those circles are likely to be thanks to the discussions on here (though at times very interesting).
Seriously_red says in the Jimmy Stone thread, on page 10 (amongst other things)-
"As for Duchatelet's overall strategy for Staprix and CAFC? It's not clear he has one! As I have posted before, Mintzberg was famous for stating one can infer strategy from a series of decisions - basically you can see a pattern that can then be fitted into a narrative with some assumptions - in essence one gan look at the gaps in understanding and convert that into questions for the executive.
So I've done that and decanted into a single solitary question: WTF?! ".
Using seriously_red's implied approach more information will infer the strategy, all the while RD is not going to be forthcoming. The recruitment strategy is a good example, as posed above, 'players not good enough'. (And Redpanda posed the question too, in Jimmy Stone thread). If we get details of that we probably get to know significantly more about how the network strategy fits together and where we are in RD's pecking order.
There are no doubt other key facts we need to establish at this time. A good meeting for me will compile the main information that we are missing. It will then help organise ourselves before drawing up a subsequent meeting or specific actions.
To get RD to listen? To get RD out? To smoke out a new buyer?
as with UKIP I get a feeling I know what you're against, I just have no idea what your campaigning for
There is no campaign - a public meeting has been called, nothing more and nothing less. Of course the results of the public meeting might lead to more and that might have an "aim" but you're asking questions which cannot be answered until the meeting has taken place, afterwards you can decide who's against what and who seems like UKIP.
He is a business tycoon. Thinks he has made his money by his intellect and cunning when it was really by luck, using cheap labour, overpricing etc. A real James Bond villain character.
You'll be the one holding a pitchfork AND a burning torch then
Roland owns,or is a major Shareholder in Four Club,s with another one rumoured.Is there any other Business Man that owns as many Football Clubs? too many fingers in the pie for any loyalty.
Roland owns,or is a major Shareholder in Four Club,s with another one rumoured.Is there any other Business Man that owns as many Football Clubs? too many fingers in the pie for any loyalty.
The Pozzo family own Watford, Udinese and Granada and I don't think it's been a complete disaster. I'd probably prefer that Charlton were the sole focus of the person that owns our club, but the "network" model in itself could possibly work provided the people overseeing it are competent.
Comments
To get RD to listen?
To get RD out?
To smoke out a new buyer?
as with UKIP I get a feeling I know what you're against, I just have no idea what your campaigning for
Firstly, to establish what we are trying to achieve.
Would you not complain about the terrible meal you were served in case they brought you something even more inedible next time round?
Would you quietly tolerate the dodge pint of lager in case there was a turd floating round in the replacement pint?
Its a meeting to gauge the level of concern amongst various supporters groups. Where does it say anything about campaigning ?
but right now it seems there's 3 camps
1 don't believe the club is in jeopardy although they would wish for more stability with regards to mgmt turn over and player recruitment
2 that the club is filling the squad with dodgy foreign imports that only mean we are a network feeder or dumping ground and that its unacceptable and we will get relegated with these loads of dodgy Belgium footballers
3 that the clubs heart and soul has gone its in danger of becoming laughing stock within football and that RD in control will cause us severe harm in the long run
until there is cohesion in the complaint then nothing can be done ,
asking for a demo against norwich before this meeting and on the day we are meant to show respect to a proper charlton mans passing is not the way to do it imo
I don't think putting any amount or type of pressure on Duchatelet is going to change one thing about his plan.
Everything is dependant on what his overall plan actually is. I don't think its about money in any shape other than trying to run a football club at break even therefore proving his theory correct.
How we try to impact this I don't know.
I guess his expenditure will just be whatever he loses each year - maybe £5mn - and perhaps that will be tax deductible.
Personally I'm not far from your thinking. If RD wants to prove a theory right and be successful and break even then I doubt there's anyone who wouldn't sign up to that. If his execution isn't working, then it would be in his interests - even his philosophical interests - to listen to those who think they can help him achieve it but perhaps in a different way.
For me, assuming the vision is sound, it's the execution of his strategy that's awry. If we can influence it so that he achieves an aim that we can buy into, then that's the holy grail for me. Owner succeeding, club identity preserved, supporters involved. Why not?
This for me is football, its sport, its the essence of competition. All this network sharing stuff is a mediocre, watered down, namby pamby, inferior version of the real thing.
Yes the heart and soul is being ripped out of the club.
Even if he is a "loyal retainer" and a cost-effective option, that does not mean that RD has appointed him with indifference to the Club's performances and league status.
We can all see a number of the network players are not good enough, a " proper" manager would know their capabilities before allowing them to join.
There does not seem the CAFC " spirit" - we can all name players but where are the John Robinsons, Richard Refus's, mark Kinselas, we can all name them. I feel only Johnny Jackson falls anywhere near that type. Many look like "it's this weeks job"
Do we need to do anything or not? ... personally, I am still not fully convinced of the timing, but readily admit I am nowhere near as relaxed as I was a year ago.
The changes to FFP blew a big hole in RD's plans.
Seriously_red says in the Jimmy Stone thread, on page 10 (amongst other things)-
"As for Duchatelet's overall strategy for Staprix and CAFC? It's not clear he has one! As I have posted before, Mintzberg was famous for stating one can infer strategy from a series of decisions - basically you can see a pattern that can then be fitted into a narrative with some assumptions - in essence one gan look at the gaps in understanding and convert that into questions for the executive.
So I've done that and decanted into a single solitary question: WTF?! ".
Using seriously_red's implied approach more information will infer the strategy, all the while RD is not going to be forthcoming. The recruitment strategy is a good example, as posed above, 'players not good enough'. (And Redpanda posed the question too, in Jimmy Stone thread). If we get details of that we probably get to know significantly more about how the network strategy fits together and where we are in RD's pecking order.
There are no doubt other key facts we need to establish at this time. A good meeting for me will compile the main information that we are missing. It will then help organise ourselves before drawing up a subsequent meeting or specific actions.
YES