Painful to hear the chap from the Pelton arms had a bid rejected for it. That would of led to a serious remake of the swan If the pelton is anything to go by.
Indeed. That would have been a result for Charlton. I think he's still involved in the working party to try and save it though.
Grew up in and around the village, My dads recently moved after 78 years of living in Charlton. I grew up IN Charlton Park, furthest Id go would be to pop in the Swan for a quid to get a bottle of Coca Pina whilst playing football. Was a great pub, remember people getting dressed up on a Friday Saturday and Sunday to go in there.
Was always in and out when Ted and Maureen had it, proper community pub then, Darts Team, Pool Team, Betting Syndicate on a Saturday, Charity events, etc.
I don't want this to turn into a political/racist rant and this is by no means meant to be interpreted as that sort of comment, however IMO the 'community' has changed a hell of a lot of the past 30 years.
I just don't think Pub culture is in the interests of the interest/beliefs of a majority of people who live in and around the village.
I think there is room in there to possibly do something like the have done in the Greenwich Union, BUT, youd have to keep the Oiks out who have eventually brought the pubs name down regardless of the owner.
Would be a great shame for another bit of my life erased.
Jeff, the owner of the Pelton, is also making a go of the previously moribund Shortlands Tavern, on the western edge of Bromley. The changing demography of Charlton might make it difficult to sustain a thriving community pub.
Thirty years ago when I lived in Birmingham, the inner-city districts had a pub on every corner. But de-industrialisation and settlement by Hindus and Muslims have left vast swathes of the city without a single pub.
Thanks for letting me join the discussion here admin... Much appreciated. I'm one of the working group for the White Swan Charlton community pub bid and an admin on the White Swan facebook page
I'm very concerned with pubs and determined to make sure they don't all become Tesco Locals. A bit of background may be useful. A friend of mine asked me to come and have a look at Charlton's pubs in 2013 because he could see they were in trouble. And we looked at the White Swan then... before it was on the market White Swan, in Charlton: I'm a publican and one of the founders of the Fair Pint Campaign which launched in 2008 - we were a bunch of tied pub licensees who got together in 2006 to lobby the government about abuse of the Beer Tie which was being used by our pub companies to put us out of business. We all ran very busy ie busy 'successful' pubs but none of us could legitimately make a profit because the pubco's (Punch, Enterprise and S&N in our case) were taking so much in rent and beer wholesale prices that we were left with no profit, running our arses off 24/7/365 just to pay bills...
Which is certainly pretty much exactly what has happened to the White Swan over the last 20 years... (and no doubt is happening to the people at the Bugle Horn right now)
Because of all my history and experience with pubs, for five years I have been working on the antidote to greedy pubco's set up to asset strip OUR pubs everywhere. It is called the People's Pub Partnership which, in short, is designed to be a crowd funded pub company to have national reach, and will be rather like the pubs' version of John Lewis meets JD Wetherspoon but with style, character, a social conscience with a lot of beer and cider making going on. Basically everyone will have a chance to own a bit of THEIR national pub chain which will run pubs professionally always with a local focus. Local and regional beers and produce... doing what good pubs always have done but big companies never bother with.
Getting the White Swan into community control is not going to be easy, there's about five months with Christmas and New Year ahead before the pub is protected from being sold to a developer. The community have that time to work together and build a case and a business plan and raise enough cash to be able to put in a serious offer to Punch, galvanise everyone in the area without annoying anyone in the process and then make some proper pub and local history into the bargain!
It's going to NEED a LOT of input, ideas and support from as many people possible. The working group has a lot of very capable people in it already but there's already been some argy bargy with one of the members shooting off at tangents not hearing or agreeing to anything everyone else is fine about. Once that is sorted it should get off to a great start. We only need to raise about £1.3 million. Oh and there are NO grants available at all right now...
If you're interested in performing daily miracles, get involved and join the White Swan on Facebook or Twitter We'll have a website soon and that will help get things going - the next meeting of the working group is on 11 December and there will be a public meeting in January
YES and Geoff from the Pelton IS on the working group - I'll come back here and put more out as soon as I can if that's okay with you people?
By the way. Important to state - after reading above - proper local people MUST be involved in the future of this pub. It's all about keeping it properly for future generations and that means it must be relevant to everyone who lives in the area. This CAN be achieved. My pub for sixteen years was The Sun and Doves in Camberwell I set it up on £45K which was about £200K less than it needed and we managed some amazing things there with all sorts of people brushing up against each other for a decade and a half while being asset stripped by S&N then Heineken. Wasn't perfect but we was getting there!
Hi. Another member of the fledgling campaign group here. Just to add to an earlier question, as well as John Fahy there is David Gardner involved. David is a Blackheath Westcombe Cllr (I think) but he lives in the village. Geoff from the Pelton is another great person to be able to get advice and practical help from, top guy too. Also have had interest from the Hopstuff Brewery people. So strong interest and expertise, but yes, a massive massive task. Gotta dream though!
Btw, thanks Curb_it, your comment got me all nostalgic about the old days at the Oak, that place used to be brilliant.
Hi. Another member of the fledgling campaign group here. Just to add to an earlier question, as well as John Fahy there is David Gardner involved. David is a Blackheath Westcombe Cllr (I think) but he lives in the village. Geoff from the Pelton is another great person to be able to get advice and practical help from, top guy too. Also have had interest from the Hopstuff Brewery people. So strong interest and expertise, but yes, a massive massive task. Gotta dream though!
Btw, thanks Curb_it, your comment got me all nostalgic about the old days at the Oak, that place used to be brilliant.
It did... cos you met me in there!
I also used to ocassionaly drink in the Son & Doves as I lived on Bavent Road back in 2000 for a few years. A great pub, sorry to hear what happened.
Price is aimed at a Tesco Express or similar - unless someone chucks in a huge wodge of cash the community pub or not it is going to need to sell a hell of a lot of beer and food to make it viable. I hate to see pubs closing down (thought they were changing planning laws to make it harder as well) but its a tough business to make them, pay even in areas where there are a lot of people who want to go out in the evening and have cash to spare
Wow! Thanks for comments and encouragement for the working group = appreciated
Update: Some 'Weird Shit' has been happening; Anyone with an eye on social media will have picked up some of this already. Will try to keep it brief but it has been a bit of a nightmare tbh.
Not a lot is happening from the official working group publicly because Vito Marino (who managed the White Swan for someone else for a while in 2010) put a spanner in the works. He was on the working group from the 25 November meeting but immediately disagreed with much of what otherwise was unanimous among the working group.
At the meeting Vito said he disagreed with Greenwich Cooperative Development Agency GCDA being involved in managing payments coming in so the working group can enagage the Plunkett Foundation and use their model rules for setting up a local cooperative; He disagreed that Pauleec should do a website for the group and began behaving as if Vito Marino IS The Working Group. In the next week or so Vito set up another White Swan facebook page and a twitter account and a website. The three sites each presents itself as if it's the beginnings of a community campaign to raise funds for buying the White Swan. There is a donations page with a paypal link on the website. Vito did this absolutely on his own without any agreement of the working group who at the meeting had agreed to amalgamate the existing social media sites with a new website that Pauleec volunteered to set up.
Yesterday the working group told Vito to cease and desist and to pull his bogus sites down. He has not yet and we have to see what he does before understanding what action to take next.
There has been a bit of work behind the scenes though:
Pauleec has done a great little website which will be published very soon We've been testing ways of communicating without spamming everyone in the group with messages all day long The first meeting of the working group proper is going to be 11 December - and there will be a much bigger public meeting in early January - when the campaign will start proper A local filmmaker, Hannah Chamberlain who runs Barrage Media has offered to shoot a video short for the White Swan campaign - if she gets help in production, writing a script and holding umbrellas and so on when the filming is being done... WHAT a brilliant offer! And other people have offered support too We will make a list of skills needed and tasks to be done and distribute
We haven't had time to organise properly at all - the diversion above has been a real hindrance and several people were thinking seriously about withdrawing from the group.
Someone we will need is a volunteer coordinator - so if you or anyone you know has time and is able to coordinate people PLEASE come forward!
We have to raise £600 to pay for membership of Plunkett Foundation and the legal documents and model rules. Some of this was pledged at the 25 November meeting - where we missed a chance for people present to get cash out of their pockets then and there and their names be taken to go in a Hall of Fame on the website...
The ideal would be to attract 120 people to put in a fiver each. Let me know what you think about that and I will ask GCDA if they mind having their bank details published here = Chris Seaden is putting this out among his residents' association
We will publish the names of all the working group soon - and might be looking for one or two more people with complementary skills...
Then we need to plug into everyone's networks all over London . Oh, and do loads of consultation and feedback and write a business plan and all that
Yes, Paul Chapman who is a fellow Addick fan talks about the White Swan , Good to see the community getting organised. or at least trying to do something, than just say 'oh well'!. It will not be easy, but then if we wanted things 'easy' we would not support CAFC would we.........
Bad news I'm afraid. The White Swan closed permanently as of yesterday 15/6. Bailiffs in, locks changed, place is now deserted. Nobody seems to know what the future holds but looking like it's days as a pub as now over. Very sad but at least The Bugle seems to be getting a new lease of life with a very pro-Charlton landlord.
Just spoke to bloke who was running it, he said middle eastern developers were the ones who brought it apparently, so will probably be flats unfortunately.
Just spoke to bloke who was running it, he said middle eastern developers were the ones who brought it apparently, so will probably be flats unfortunately.
Comments
I grew up IN Charlton Park, furthest Id go would be to pop in the Swan for a quid to get a bottle of Coca Pina whilst playing football.
Was a great pub, remember people getting dressed up on a Friday Saturday and Sunday to go in there.
Was always in and out when Ted and Maureen had it, proper community pub then, Darts Team, Pool Team, Betting Syndicate on a Saturday, Charity events, etc.
I don't want this to turn into a political/racist rant and this is by no means meant to be interpreted as that sort of comment, however IMO the 'community' has changed a hell of a lot of the past 30 years.
I just don't think Pub culture is in the interests of the interest/beliefs of a majority of people who live in and around the village.
I think there is room in there to possibly do something like the have done in the Greenwich Union, BUT, youd have to keep the Oiks out who have eventually brought the pubs name down regardless of the owner.
Would be a great shame for another bit of my life erased.
Thirty years ago when I lived in Birmingham, the inner-city districts had a pub on every corner. But de-industrialisation and settlement by Hindus and Muslims have left vast swathes of the city without a single pub.
I'm very concerned with pubs and determined to make sure they don't all become Tesco Locals. A bit of background may be useful. A friend of mine asked me to come and have a look at Charlton's pubs in 2013 because he could see they were in trouble. And we looked at the White Swan then... before it was on the market White Swan, in Charlton: I'm a publican and one of the founders of the Fair Pint Campaign which launched in 2008 - we were a bunch of tied pub licensees who got together in 2006 to lobby the government about abuse of the Beer Tie which was being used by our pub companies to put us out of business. We all ran very busy ie busy 'successful' pubs but none of us could legitimately make a profit because the pubco's (Punch, Enterprise and S&N in our case) were taking so much in rent and beer wholesale prices that we were left with no profit, running our arses off 24/7/365 just to pay bills...
Which is certainly pretty much exactly what has happened to the White Swan over the last 20 years... (and no doubt is happening to the people at the Bugle Horn right now)
The Fair Pint Campaign with time morphed into the Fair Deal For Your Local Campaign and over time led to history being made on 18 November 2014 in the House of Commons when WE won a vote for pubs, over a government three line whip against it, on the Small Business Bill where we got an Amendment added into the bill which, once it has passed the Lords (second reading today by the way) will give tied publicans the right to demand a free of tie option in their contract with their Pubco The link is to a Daily Mail article which had by far the best headline of the day.
Because of all my history and experience with pubs, for five years I have been working on the antidote to greedy pubco's set up to asset strip OUR pubs everywhere. It is called the People's Pub Partnership which, in short, is designed to be a crowd funded pub company to have national reach, and will be rather like the pubs' version of John Lewis meets JD Wetherspoon but with style, character, a social conscience with a lot of beer and cider making going on. Basically everyone will have a chance to own a bit of THEIR national pub chain which will run pubs professionally always with a local focus. Local and regional beers and produce... doing what good pubs always have done but big companies never bother with.
The White Swan COULD be an amazing pub and a lot, lot more at the same time... The price is ridiculous... Punch are stubborn. But lots of people together can do amazing things... The Ivy House was £810K and the Bell Inn, Bath was £900K AND and the housing association and local people around The Friendship, Bellingham have also performed a fiscal miracle by raising £3.8 million from the Heritage Lottery Fund.
Getting the White Swan into community control is not going to be easy, there's about five months with Christmas and New Year ahead before the pub is protected from being sold to a developer. The community have that time to work together and build a case and a business plan and raise enough cash to be able to put in a serious offer to Punch, galvanise everyone in the area without annoying anyone in the process and then make some proper pub and local history into the bargain!
It's going to NEED a LOT of input, ideas and support from as many people possible. The working group has a lot of very capable people in it already but there's already been some argy bargy with one of the members shooting off at tangents not hearing or agreeing to anything everyone else is fine about. Once that is sorted it should get off to a great start. We only need to raise about £1.3 million. Oh and there are NO grants available at all right now...
If you're interested in performing daily miracles, get involved and join the White Swan on Facebook or Twitter We'll have a website soon and that will help get things going - the next meeting of the working group is on 11 December and there will be a public meeting in January
YES and Geoff from the Pelton IS on the working group - I'll come back here and put more out as soon as I can if that's okay with you people?
By the way. Important to state - after reading above - proper local people MUST be involved in the future of this pub. It's all about keeping it properly for future generations and that means it must be relevant to everyone who lives in the area. This CAN be achieved. My pub for sixteen years was The Sun and Doves in Camberwell I set it up on £45K which was about £200K less than it needed and we managed some amazing things there with all sorts of people brushing up against each other for a decade and a half while being asset stripped by S&N then Heineken. Wasn't perfect but we was getting there!
Btw, thanks Curb_it, your comment got me all nostalgic about the old days at the Oak, that place used to be brilliant.
Was really delighted with the Commons vote.
I also used to ocassionaly drink in the Son & Doves as I lived on Bavent Road back in 2000 for a few years. A great pub, sorry to hear what happened.
Viva La Swan!
Update: Some 'Weird Shit' has been happening; Anyone with an eye on social media will have picked up some of this already. Will try to keep it brief but it has been a bit of a nightmare tbh.
Not a lot is happening from the official working group publicly because Vito Marino (who managed the White Swan for someone else for a while in 2010) put a spanner in the works. He was on the working group from the 25 November meeting but immediately disagreed with much of what otherwise was unanimous among the working group.
At the meeting Vito said he disagreed with Greenwich Cooperative Development Agency GCDA being involved in managing payments coming in so the working group can enagage the Plunkett Foundation and use their model rules for setting up a local cooperative; He disagreed that Pauleec should do a website for the group and began behaving as if Vito Marino IS The Working Group. In the next week or so Vito set up another White Swan facebook page and a twitter account and a website. The three sites each presents itself as if it's the beginnings of a community campaign to raise funds for buying the White Swan. There is a donations page with a paypal link on the website. Vito did this absolutely on his own without any agreement of the working group who at the meeting had agreed to amalgamate the existing social media sites with a new website that Pauleec volunteered to set up.
Yesterday the working group told Vito to cease and desist and to pull his bogus sites down. He has not yet and we have to see what he does before understanding what action to take next.
Consequently not much has been happening on the real White Swan twitter and real White Swan facebook page
There has been a bit of work behind the scenes though:
Pauleec has done a great little website which will be published very soon
We've been testing ways of communicating without spamming everyone in the group with messages all day long
The first meeting of the working group proper is going to be 11 December - and there will be a much bigger public meeting in early January - when the campaign will start proper
A local filmmaker, Hannah Chamberlain who runs Barrage Media has offered to shoot a video short for the White Swan campaign - if she gets help in production, writing a script and holding umbrellas and so on when the filming is being done... WHAT a brilliant offer!
And other people have offered support too
We will make a list of skills needed and tasks to be done and distribute
We haven't had time to organise properly at all - the diversion above has been a real hindrance and several people were thinking seriously about withdrawing from the group.
Someone we will need is a volunteer coordinator - so if you or anyone you know has time and is able to coordinate people PLEASE come forward!
We have to raise £600 to pay for membership of Plunkett Foundation and the legal documents and model rules. Some of this was pledged at the 25 November meeting - where we missed a chance for people present to get cash out of their pockets then and there and their names be taken to go in a Hall of Fame on the website...
The ideal would be to attract 120 people to put in a fiver each. Let me know what you think about that and I will ask GCDA if they mind having their bank details published here = Chris Seaden is putting this out among his residents' association
We will publish the names of all the working group soon - and might be looking for one or two more people with complementary skills...
Then we need to plug into everyone's networks all over London . Oh, and do loads of consultation and feedback and write a business plan and all that
Cheers have a great weekend!
Interesting show, though a bit depressing when you hear how vulnerable pubs are. Heard some familiar White Swan voices on there though.
or at least trying to do something, than just say 'oh well'!.
It will not be easy, but then if we wanted things 'easy' we would not support CAFC would we.........