If Paul Hart is not going to Man City then the only way to put Avory in charge is to redesign the structure else there is a risk of unfair dismissal if one were to make Paul redundant. I too have heard good things about Avory and hope they are true as we need the academy to work more than ever. There is a reason why out of contract 25 year olds are signing elsewhere. But that simply won't matter in the long run if the Academy continues to deliver four or five first team debuts every season. As long as whoever is in charge of player acquisition can secure players on loan good enough to paper over any cracks then we are on the way to the youngest first team squad in the Championship. It would be good if Duchatelet, Meire and/or Murray could clarify or at least put a date on when another announcement might be made. @Razil it seems some posters on here feel it is fair game to have pop at anyone who tries to read the situation. To me that simply shows the stress caused by the lack of club comms... I'm no expert in the field but how long before this turns to outright anger?
Are you suggesting the restructure was a cost saving? Is Hart deffo not going to City? Could the Academy be federated/subordinate formally or informally to a network Academy head?
No idea re Hart A group director of football and or academies is possible or perhaps Duchatelet wants direct responsibility for local executives? No surprise that structures and roles are changing with a new owner and I would expect more to change over the summer, particularly if they serious about a cat 1 academy in two years time - this will need ramping up to get there on time with the right build and coaches on time. We can only go on what we see and what we are told. There is clearly a plan but nice if some of it was shared.
There is a reason why out of contract 25 year olds are signing elsewhere. But that simply won't matter in the long run if the Academy continues to deliver four or five first team debuts every season.
That is highly unlikely. There is definitely a crop coming/come through recently but I would imagine very difficult to rely solely on that and expect 4 or 5 a season capable of competing in the Championship.
When I look at the board in Bartrams I see four youth players a season but the big question is whether they play 5 or 100 games. I agree this is not 100% of the solution so then it comes down to borrowing the likes of Sordell and Ajdarevic to keep us competitive in mid table. Some on here don't like citing Liege but SL clearly have their recruitment nailed down. Perhaps we get some of their first team squad as they shake things up in the summer and ideally we get access to their scouting network. For me the glass is half full right now and I await final decisions on contracts before we start the acquisition process.
If Paul Hart is not going to Man City then the only way to put Avory in charge is to redesign the structure else there is a risk of unfair dismissal if one were to make Paul redundant. I too have heard good things about Avory and hope they are true as we need the academy to work more than ever. There is a reason why out of contract 25 year olds are signing elsewhere. But that simply won't matter in the long run if the Academy continues to deliver four or five first team debuts every season. As long as whoever is in charge of player acquisition can secure players on loan good enough to paper over any cracks then we are on the way to the youngest first team squad in the Championship. It would be good if Duchatelet, Meire and/or Murray could clarify or at least put a date on when another announcement might be made. @Razil it seems some posters on here feel it is fair game to have pop at anyone who tries to read the situation. To me that simply shows the stress caused by the lack of club comms... I'm no expert in the field but how long before this turns to outright anger?
Are you suggesting the restructure was a cost saving? Is Hart deffo not going to City? Could the Academy be federated/subordinate formally or informally to a network Academy head?
Who knows, but the announcement is certainly not what I would have expected given the speculation about Hart moving to Manchester City.
Restructuring and asking all employees to apply for the "new" jobs in the new structure is often just that, a restructuring, but sometimes it's a mechanism to move people on and get the right people in the key roles.
To an outsider this restructuring appears, on the surface, to be in the latter category; somebody decided that Avory and not Hart was the key man and, perhaps, that Hart wasn't really needed. If that's true then the restructuring was simply a ruse to achieve the desired outcome.
I know this might sound a bit cynical, but why go through the charade described on the Official Site if Hart was leaving anyway? I assume Hart was made redundant since his job disappeared. Why spend that money if he was leaving anyway?
It would now be very odd if it were announced Hart were joining Manchester City.
I can't really see the point of putting somebody over Avory. However, it may well make sense to coordinate youth development at a European level. What's happened in Belgium over the last decade is very interesting. No pun intended, but youth development appears to have been standardised. The logical nerve centre to oversee youth development in Duchatelet's network would be Liege I'd have thought.
It is very hard to argue with Paul Harts CV in youth football. I certainly have no wish to. Whatever his skill set he has produced very good results at 3 clubs including ourselves. I am very appreciative of his efforts on our behalf. That is certainly no reflection on the talents of Steve Avory who has produced and will no doubt continue to produce comparable if not better results but questions around Harts' departure are valid.
I suggest the restructure does represent a switch, for me, a positive switch in emphasis. There are, of course rightly, a host of rules and regulations surrounding youth football particularly in the international market place but where there is a will there is a way. I expect to see the academy to have access to a much broader talent pool. I suspect places at our prestigious academy with be ever harder to secure. Equally I expect their to be a greater focus on the academy places being geared as a planned pathway to a professional career in football.
In essence I see the competition for full academy places being even greater with the graduation criteria for becoming a full professional being even stricter. That is no reflection on the current youngsters within the club. They continue to be a credit to the club.
I am not so sure however if they are well served by the current process in which they are trying to develop a career. The introduction of the U21 level of competition was welcome but I question if it is really fit for purpose. The step up to the first team is still a step too far, and to a degree it has blurred the edges of developing professional footballers.
In the days of apprentices the awarding of full professional contracts gave a young player clear expectation of competing for the first team squad via a program of competitive senior reserve football against which you developed, learned to compete against seasoned professionals and either grew or failed.
Today you almost end up with almost a two tier requirement - one level of young professionals identified as being destined for the first team squad with a second tier needed to fill in the U21 squad - in the end all that has happened is that the selection process which took place at the end of the old apprenticeship had been put back 12 or 24 months. Hence the swathe of 19/20/21 years old professionals at the end of each season with effectively nowhere to go.
I am sure it is every academy scholars' dream to make it in the professional game and it is a tough call but I am not sure in the long term it does any one any favours to keep lads on professional contracts for couple of years without any real prospect of progressing their career. No matter the hard work the coaches and players put in the process is really not fit for purpose. In simple terms it does not offer the required competition to facilitate the step up to the first team.
I suspect the network is being specifically designed to provide the development platform for young professionals to learn to complete at a senior level across multiple levels within different environments, against different styles under different coaches. It is an area RD has shown he is very prepared to invest in (e.g. FC Brussels, Turbize.)
The pipeline is our and all the other academies in the network. I see the academy(ies) as a first rung on the Duchatelet young professional development program with the opportunity to compete at varying levels at clubs across Europe.
Academy scholarships will be via a collective selection or "draft" process across the network clubs and its global market connections for places within the networks academies. The structure offers both broader opportunities for, but greater competition in, progressing a professional career.
I expect to see a network coordinator for youth development. A key role I suggest for the long term success of the program.
Mischievously I could suggest the ideal candidate for such a role (even on a consultative basis - allowing him to continue with his other interests) is already contracted to the club. Sadly however his head may have been turned by his experiences of the last 3 months.
The real question for me is whether Duchatelet has broad objectives of this kind and hopes, somehow, it will all "just happen" through cooperation, which he'll no doubt encourage, or if he has concrete and perhaps detailed plans.
I guess we'll see, but so far, we've only seen one network wide role and that's somebody based in Budapest talking about communication synergies - definitely more Johnny English than Dr No.
As for Riga, he has an interesting CV and I doubt very much he harboured an ambition to manage in the hurly burly of the Championship. Now, having experienced it, he fancies another "shot" it seems. Duchatelet may not view him as being sufficiently committed though, not least since he's lost Riga once already. The anecdotal evidence, i.e. Riga's comments in the media, does not really support the notion that Duchatelet has discussed another role with him.
I remember you saying about a year ago there was more to Kasey Palmer leaving than had come to light.
Out of interest, are you able to shed a bit more on that now ?
Unfortunately not, I'm not trying to play the 'mysterious game', just, as I have said before football is quite incestuous. I am glad however that you have put 2 & 2 together. For the record a lot of big clubs had shown interest in Kasey for many years.....and then he left....
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Really do think your comments are very unkind, and way of the mark. Just check his previous work record prior to CAFC. Not sure why you would want to post a remark like that. Yes we have had a good reputation as an Academy for many a year, prior to Paul who came here from a noted background in academy/youth football. I do not see this as Paul verses Steve, or anything to do with 'egos' which I assume you are getting at? There is a lot of work to get the Academy to Cat 1 status, and the 'structure' of the management which was something that Paul talked about to me in late January, at Sparrow's Lane was going to be a challenge. We all wish the Academy great success, and of course it is not just one person who will deliver this. I saw the game at Ebbsfleet a few weeks ago, and we had some talented players there, and we were playing Arsenal, so I do not quite get your comment!
I am not playing 'egos', just have first hand experience and knowledge. There was a lot going on that you would not be privy to. You don't have to believe me, but I know, I am just expressing a view...first hand. In relation to you watching the game at Ebbsfleet, you have in fact highlighted one of my points. The majority of the players were first year scholars, look back through the Charlton 'Archives' that year have ALWAYS been outstanding, they used to beat the top clubs regularly, we were unfortunate not to win. Arsenal knew this which is why they bought back their 'big guns' like Chuba Akpom, they couldn't beat us with their 'B' team which they usually field at the lower stages of the cup.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Blimey, strong stuff. Bit of context might be useful. Did you experience this first hand or through a family member?
Either, or ...start to say too much and it makes you/whoever told you identifiable, but I will say, I haven't based this on magazine interviews or watching matches.
I remember you saying about a year ago there was more to Kasey Palmer leaving than had come to light.
Out of interest, are you able to shed a bit more on that now ?
Unfortunately not, I'm not trying to play the 'mysterious game', just, as I have said before football is quite incestuous. I am glad however that you have put 2 & 2 together. For the record a lot of big clubs had shown interest in Kasey for many years.....and then he left....
Kasey Palmer left because Chelsea offered him more money than we did. Paul Hart is leaving because, if rumours are true, Man City offered more money/ opportunity than we can. Nothing more to it IMO.
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Really do think your comments are very unkind, and way of the mark. Just check his previous work record prior to CAFC. Not sure why you would want to post a remark like that. Yes we have had a good reputation as an Academy for many a year, prior to Paul who came here from a noted background in academy/youth football. I do not see this as Paul verses Steve, or anything to do with 'egos' which I assume you are getting at? There is a lot of work to get the Academy to Cat 1 status, and the 'structure' of the management which was something that Paul talked about to me in late January, at Sparrow's Lane was going to be a challenge. We all wish the Academy great success, and of course it is not just one person who will deliver this. I saw the game at Ebbsfleet a few weeks ago, and we had some talented players there, and we were playing Arsenal, so I do not quite get your comment!
I am not playing 'egos', just have first hand experience and knowledge. There was a lot going on that you would not be privy to. You don't have to believe me, but I know, I am just expressing a view...first hand. In relation to you watching the game at Ebbsfleet, you have in fact highlighted one of my points. The majority of the players were first year scholars, look back through the Charlton 'Archives' that year have ALWAYS been outstanding, they used to beat the top clubs regularly, we were unfortunate not to win. Arsenal knew this which is why they bought back their 'big guns' like Chuba Akpom, they couldn't beat us with their 'B' team which they usually field at the lower stages of the cup.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
Not at issue with you being critical, but I do think you have to qualify a statement that 'Paul was here to develop himself'.
You may well be near to the academy players, and what you suggest may be based on fact, and experience to come to a conclusion like that.
I interviewed Paul as I said at Sparrows lane in February, I have also met him before at various CAFC events, such as Bromley. I am also, and have been involved with local football as a manager/chairman, some of local teams, over 20 years till today. Some of my players have been at the academy during that time, one briefly was in the CAFC first team. Perhaps what you say has some validity, but may well be based on former lad's experience of not being progressing into the professional game. I appreciate that, and have a couple players in the current team that I am involved with that have been through the process over the past 5 years. So I guess my feedback is different, so I will stand by my posting I think Paul Hart will be a loss, but we shall have to see how this develops?. Developing an academy is not just about kicking a football, but about developing and preparing the players involved, in a range of educational pathways. Sadly most will not make it in the professional game. Let's hope we can kick on an develop more young players to a professional standard.
My point, was that in Paul Hart you had someone who was and is recognised as a safe pair of hands, not someone out for 'himself' to my knowledge. As I also mentioned this is not about one individual, and we shall see if the management team at the academy is strenghthened in the coming months. I accept we share a different perspective of experiences. Of course I do not have your inside knowledge, but having had to release players myself albeit at a much lower level, there is no easy way to do that ?, than be honest and supportive.
@Grapevine49 I don't always agree with what you say, even though I enjoy your posts immensely, but your assessment of the current academy system is spot on. In the old apprentice days players were tested in reserve football much younger and tended to be given a 1 year pro contract after a 2 year apprenticeship. At that point they were released or extended. Much fairer to be told at 18 than at 21 that you might not make it. Of course football is littered with players that are released and carry on. I saw the old scenario from a very close view point.
I remember you saying about a year ago there was more to Kasey Palmer leaving than had come to light.
Out of interest, are you able to shed a bit more on that now ?
Unfortunately not, I'm not trying to play the 'mysterious game', just, as I have said before football is quite incestuous. I am glad however that you have put 2 & 2 together. For the record a lot of big clubs had shown interest in Kasey for many years.....and then he left....
Kasey Palmer left because Chelsea offered him more money than we did. Paul Hart is leaving because, if rumours are true, Man City offered more money/ opportunity than we can. Nothing more to it IMO.
Darren Gough said on Talksport yesterday that 17 year olds are on £10,000 a week at Chelsea.
I remember you saying about a year ago there was more to Kasey Palmer leaving than had come to light.
Out of interest, are you able to shed a bit more on that now ?
Unfortunately not, I'm not trying to play the 'mysterious game', just, as I have said before football is quite incestuous. I am glad however that you have put 2 & 2 together. For the record a lot of big clubs had shown interest in Kasey for many years.....and then he left....
Kasey Palmer left because Chelsea offered him more money than we did. Paul Hart is leaving because, if rumours are true, Man City offered more money/ opportunity than we can. Nothing more to it IMO.
Darren Gough said on Talksport yesterday that 17 year olds are on £10,000 a week at Chelsea.
The Chelsea team that we played in FA youth cup last year had a combined weekly salary of approx £50,000.
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Didn't realise their was more than one Arsenal and Chelsea.
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Really do think your comments are very unkind, and way of the mark. Just check his previous work record prior to CAFC. Not sure why you would want to post a remark like that. Yes we have had a good reputation as an Academy for many a year, prior to Paul who came here from a noted background in academy/youth football. I do not see this as Paul verses Steve, or anything to do with 'egos' which I assume you are getting at? There is a lot of work to get the Academy to Cat 1 status, and the 'structure' of the management which was something that Paul talked about to me in late January, at Sparrow's Lane was going to be a challenge. We all wish the Academy great success, and of course it is not just one person who will deliver this. I saw the game at Ebbsfleet a few weeks ago, and we had some talented players there, and we were playing Arsenal, so I do not quite get your comment!
I am not playing 'egos', just have first hand experience and knowledge. There was a lot going on that you would not be privy to. You don't have to believe me, but I know, I am just expressing a view...first hand. In relation to you watching the game at Ebbsfleet, you have in fact highlighted one of my points. The majority of the players were first year scholars, look back through the Charlton 'Archives' that year have ALWAYS been outstanding, they used to beat the top clubs regularly, we were unfortunate not to win. Arsenal knew this which is why they bought back their 'big guns' like Chuba Akpom, they couldn't beat us with their 'B' team which they usually field at the lower stages of the cup.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
Not at issue with you being critical, but I do think you have to qualify a statement that 'Paul was here to develop himself'.
You may well be near to the academy players, and what you suggest may be based on fact, and experience to come to a conclusion like that.
I interviewed Paul as I said at Sparrows lane in February, I have also met him before at various CAFC events, such as Bromley. I am also, and have been involved with local football as a manager/chairman, some of local teams, over 20 years till today. Some of my players have been at the academy during that time, one briefly was in the CAFC first team. Perhaps what you say has some validity, but may well be based on former lad's experience of not being progressing into the professional game. I appreciate that, and have a couple players in the current team that I am involved with that have been through the process over the past 5 years. So I guess my feedback is different, so I will stand by my posting I think Paul Hart will be a loss, but we shall have to see how this develops?. Developing an academy is not just about kicking a football, but about developing and preparing the players involved, in a range of educational pathways. Sadly most will not make it in the professional game. Let's hope we can kick on an develop more young players to a professional standard.
My point, was that in Paul Hart you had someone who was and is recognised as a safe pair of hands, not someone out for 'himself' to my knowledge. As I also mentioned this is not about one individual, and we shall see if the management team at the academy is strenghthened in the coming months. I accept we share a different perspective of experiences. Of course I do not have your inside knowledge, but having had to release players myself albeit at a much lower level, there is no easy way to do that ?, than be honest and supportive.
In terms of you meeting him and talking with him, we all have a 'professional face', and that's how business is run. In terms of developing players, I have heard from a good few ex players including ones whose careers he assisted, and some who sing his praises, however they have said that if he doesn't favour you, he will kill your career.
In terms of players not making it, when was the last time we had boys be released and then make it ..straight away into prem teams? We have had two in the past year. I'm not talking about Kasey here. I really wish I could quantify this to you, but then again maybe I couldn't. As you said we have differing views, but let's just say if he was 'honest and supportive', in all aspects that would be a good starting point.
As I said in my initial statement, hardly any players or staff will be missing him.
My view is that he was out of work and this was the best option on the table at the time. The rumour around the circuits was that he had been bought in by the previous owners, on an exceptionally high wage, so should Chris Powell fail, they wouldn't have to go outside to find a new manager. Chris lasted a lot longer than most expected. As I understand from the outset, Paul spent a lot of time at job interviews, not for academy roles either.
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Really do think your comments are very unkind, and way of the mark. Just check his previous work record prior to CAFC. Not sure why you would want to post a remark like that. Yes we have had a good reputation as an Academy for many a year, prior to Paul who came here from a noted background in academy/youth football. I do not see this as Paul verses Steve, or anything to do with 'egos' which I assume you are getting at? There is a lot of work to get the Academy to Cat 1 status, and the 'structure' of the management which was something that Paul talked about to me in late January, at Sparrow's Lane was going to be a challenge. We all wish the Academy great success, and of course it is not just one person who will deliver this. I saw the game at Ebbsfleet a few weeks ago, and we had some talented players there, and we were playing Arsenal, so I do not quite get your comment!
I am not playing 'egos', just have first hand experience and knowledge. There was a lot going on that you would not be privy to. You don't have to believe me, but I know, I am just expressing a view...first hand. In relation to you watching the game at Ebbsfleet, you have in fact highlighted one of my points. The majority of the players were first year scholars, look back through the Charlton 'Archives' that year have ALWAYS been outstanding, they used to beat the top clubs regularly, we were unfortunate not to win. Arsenal knew this which is why they bought back their 'big guns' like Chuba Akpom, they couldn't beat us with their 'B' team which they usually field at the lower stages of the cup.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
Not at issue with you being critical, but I do think you have to qualify a statement that 'Paul was here to develop himself'.
You may well be near to the academy players, and what you suggest may be based on fact, and experience to come to a conclusion like that.
I interviewed Paul as I said at Sparrows lane in February, I have also met him before at various CAFC events, such as Bromley. I am also, and have been involved with local football as a manager/chairman, some of local teams, over 20 years till today. Some of my players have been at the academy during that time, one briefly was in the CAFC first team. Perhaps what you say has some validity, but may well be based on former lad's experience of not being progressing into the professional game. I appreciate that, and have a couple players in the current team that I am involved with that have been through the process over the past 5 years. So I guess my feedback is different, so I will stand by my posting I think Paul Hart will be a loss, but we shall have to see how this develops?. Developing an academy is not just about kicking a football, but about developing and preparing the players involved, in a range of educational pathways. Sadly most will not make it in the professional game. Let's hope we can kick on an develop more young players to a professional standard.
My point, was that in Paul Hart you had someone who was and is recognised as a safe pair of hands, not someone out for 'himself' to my knowledge. As I also mentioned this is not about one individual, and we shall see if the management team at the academy is strenghthened in the coming months. I accept we share a different perspective of experiences. Of course I do not have your inside knowledge, but having had to release players myself albeit at a much lower level, there is no easy way to do that ?, than be honest and supportive.
In terms of you meeting him and talking with him, we all have a 'professional face', and that's how business is run. In terms of developing players, I have heard from a good few ex players including ones whose careers he assisted, and some who sing his praises, however they have said that if he doesn't favour you, he will kill your career.
In terms of players not making it, when was the last time we had boys be released and then make it ..straight away into prem teams? We have had two in the past year. I'm not talking about Kasey here. I really wish I could quantify this to you, but then again maybe I couldn't. As you said we have differing views, but let's just say if he was 'honest and supportive', in all aspects that would be a good starting point.
As I said in my initial statement, hardly any players or staff will be missing him.
My view is that he was out of work and this was the best option on the table at the time. The rumour around the circuits was that he had been bought in by the previous owners, on an exceptionally high wage, so should Chris Powell fail, they wouldn't have to go outside to find a new manager. Chris lasted a lot longer than most expected. As I understand from the outset, Paul spent a lot of time at job interviews, not for academy roles either.
That's very interesting, RR11.
Have to say, it does sound a bit like talking ill of the "dead" ...or in this case, departed.
But, although I found Paul perfectly "nice" whenever we spoke ( not often) I had heard the rumour that he was our manager in waiting in case SCP didn't work out.
So, although I wish him well for the next stage in his career, along with others, I firmly believe the Academy is very safe in the hands of Steve Avory and the rest of the staff there.
The rumour that I heard was that Manchester city were hoping that Paul hart would be in charge of their proposed London academy. This to my knowledge has since been scuppered. So where this leaves Paul Hart I don't know !!!
Steve Avory IS Charlton and has run the academy for many years. From when we used to play the Arsenal's and the Chelsea's...and they feared us, because we are known for our academy. Paul came along when we started to play the lower league teams, so realistically his job wasn't that hard. The Diego's and Callums were here way before Paul...because of Steve and Charlton. I doubt you'll find many of the staff who worked along side him, or the players he 'nurtured' missing him.
The difference between Steve and Paul, Steve is here to develop players, Paul was here to develop himself.
Really do think your comments are very unkind, and way of the mark. Just check his previous work record prior to CAFC. Not sure why you would want to post a remark like that. Yes we have had a good reputation as an Academy for many a year, prior to Paul who came here from a noted background in academy/youth football. I do not see this as Paul verses Steve, or anything to do with 'egos' which I assume you are getting at? There is a lot of work to get the Academy to Cat 1 status, and the 'structure' of the management which was something that Paul talked about to me in late January, at Sparrow's Lane was going to be a challenge. We all wish the Academy great success, and of course it is not just one person who will deliver this. I saw the game at Ebbsfleet a few weeks ago, and we had some talented players there, and we were playing Arsenal, so I do not quite get your comment!
I am not playing 'egos', just have first hand experience and knowledge. There was a lot going on that you would not be privy to. You don't have to believe me, but I know, I am just expressing a view...first hand. In relation to you watching the game at Ebbsfleet, you have in fact highlighted one of my points. The majority of the players were first year scholars, look back through the Charlton 'Archives' that year have ALWAYS been outstanding, they used to beat the top clubs regularly, we were unfortunate not to win. Arsenal knew this which is why they bought back their 'big guns' like Chuba Akpom, they couldn't beat us with their 'B' team which they usually field at the lower stages of the cup.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
Not at issue with you being critical, but I do think you have to qualify a statement that 'Paul was here to develop himself'.
You may well be near to the academy players, and what you suggest may be based on fact, and experience to come to a conclusion like that.
I interviewed Paul as I said at Sparrows lane in February, I have also met him before at various CAFC events, such as Bromley. I am also, and have been involved with local football as a manager/chairman, some of local teams, over 20 years till today. Some of my players have been at the academy during that time, one briefly was in the CAFC first team. Perhaps what you say has some validity, but may well be based on former lad's experience of not being progressing into the professional game. I appreciate that, and have a couple players in the current team that I am involved with that have been through the process over the past 5 years. So I guess my feedback is different, so I will stand by my posting I think Paul Hart will be a loss, but we shall have to see how this develops?. Developing an academy is not just about kicking a football, but about developing and preparing the players involved, in a range of educational pathways. Sadly most will not make it in the professional game. Let's hope we can kick on an develop more young players to a professional standard.
My point, was that in Paul Hart you had someone who was and is recognised as a safe pair of hands, not someone out for 'himself' to my knowledge. As I also mentioned this is not about one individual, and we shall see if the management team at the academy is strenghthened in the coming months. I accept we share a different perspective of experiences. Of course I do not have your inside knowledge, but having had to release players myself albeit at a much lower level, there is no easy way to do that ?, than be honest and supportive.
In terms of you meeting him and talking with him, we all have a 'professional face', and that's how business is run. In terms of developing players, I have heard from a good few ex players including ones whose careers he assisted, and some who sing his praises, however they have said that if he doesn't favour you, he will kill your career.
In terms of players not making it, when was the last time we had boys be released and then make it ..straight away into prem teams? We have had two in the past year. I'm not talking about Kasey here. I really wish I could quantify this to you, but then again maybe I couldn't. As you said we have differing views, but let's just say if he was 'honest and supportive', in all aspects that would be a good starting point.
As I said in my initial statement, hardly any players or staff will be missing him.
My view is that he was out of work and this was the best option on the table at the time. The rumour around the circuits was that he had been bought in by the previous owners, on an exceptionally high wage, so should Chris Powell fail, they wouldn't have to go outside to find a new manager. Chris lasted a lot longer than most expected. As I understand from the outset, Paul spent a lot of time at job interviews, not for academy roles either.
That's very interesting, RR11.
Have to say, it does sound a bit like talking ill of the "dead" ...or in this case, departed.
But, although I found Paul perfectly "nice" whenever we spoke ( not often) I had heard the rumour that he was our manager in waiting in case SCP didn't work out.
So, although I wish him well for the next stage in his career, along with others, I firmly believe the Academy is very safe in the hands of Steve Avory and the rest of the staff there.
I had heard this too but I wonder if this was someone putting together presumptions which self perpetuate into alleged fact.
There were times when we all fully expected CP to go and if PH was manager in waiting why did he not go ?
There were allegations that there could have been a clearer demarcation between PHs role as Academy Director and that of his wife and son's jobs as players' agents.
Justifiable given the recent successes of the academy. not to take anything away from Steve Avory who is instrumental but Paul Hart appeared to have had some impact there
Comments
Is Hart deffo not going to City?
Could the Academy be federated/subordinate formally or informally to a network Academy head?
A group director of football and or academies is possible or perhaps Duchatelet wants direct responsibility for local executives?
No surprise that structures and roles are changing with a new owner and I would expect more to change over the summer, particularly if they serious about a cat 1 academy in two years time - this will need ramping up to get there on time with the right build and coaches on time.
We can only go on what we see and what we are told. There is clearly a plan but nice if some of it was shared.
For me the glass is half full right now and I await final decisions on contracts before we start the acquisition process.
Restructuring and asking all employees to apply for the "new" jobs in the new structure is often just that, a restructuring, but sometimes it's a mechanism to move people on and get the right people in the key roles.
To an outsider this restructuring appears, on the surface, to be in the latter category; somebody decided that Avory and not Hart was the key man and, perhaps, that Hart wasn't really needed. If that's true then the restructuring was simply a ruse to achieve the desired outcome.
I know this might sound a bit cynical, but why go through the charade described on the Official Site if Hart was leaving anyway? I assume Hart was made redundant since his job disappeared. Why spend that money if he was leaving anyway?
It would now be very odd if it were announced Hart were joining Manchester City.
I can't really see the point of putting somebody over Avory. However, it may well make sense to coordinate youth development at a European level. What's happened in Belgium over the last decade is very interesting. No pun intended, but youth development appears to have been standardised. The logical nerve centre to oversee youth development in Duchatelet's network would be Liege I'd have thought.
The next two months are going to be fascinating.
I suggest the restructure does represent a switch, for me, a positive switch in emphasis. There are, of course rightly, a host of rules and regulations surrounding youth football particularly in the international market place but where there is a will there is a way. I expect to see the academy to have access to a much broader talent pool. I suspect places at our prestigious academy with be ever harder to secure. Equally I expect their to be a greater focus on the academy places being geared as a planned pathway to a professional career in football.
In essence I see the competition for full academy places being even greater with the graduation criteria for becoming a full professional being even stricter. That is no reflection on the current youngsters within the club. They continue to be a credit to the club.
I am not so sure however if they are well served by the current process in which they are trying to develop a career. The introduction of the U21 level of competition was welcome but I question if it is really fit for purpose. The step up to the first team is still a step too far, and to a degree it has blurred the edges of developing professional footballers.
In the days of apprentices the awarding of full professional contracts gave a young player clear expectation of competing for the first team squad via a program of competitive senior reserve football against which you developed, learned to compete against seasoned professionals and either grew or failed.
Today you almost end up with almost a two tier requirement - one level of young professionals identified as being destined for the first team squad with a second tier needed to fill in the U21 squad - in the end all that has happened is that the selection process which took place at the end of the old apprenticeship had been put back 12 or 24 months. Hence the swathe of 19/20/21 years old professionals at the end of each season with effectively nowhere to go.
I am sure it is every academy scholars' dream to make it in the professional game and it is a tough call but I am not sure in the long term it does any one any favours to keep lads on professional contracts for couple of years without any real prospect of progressing their career. No matter the hard work the coaches and players put in the process is really not fit for purpose. In simple terms it does not offer the required competition to facilitate the step up to the first team.
I suspect the network is being specifically designed to provide the development platform for young professionals to learn to complete at a senior level across multiple levels within different environments, against different styles under different coaches. It is an area RD has shown he is very prepared to invest in (e.g. FC Brussels, Turbize.)
The pipeline is our and all the other academies in the network. I see the academy(ies) as a first rung on the Duchatelet young professional development program with the opportunity to compete at varying levels at clubs across Europe.
Academy scholarships will be via a collective selection or "draft" process across the network clubs and its global market connections for places within the networks academies. The structure offers both broader opportunities for, but greater competition in, progressing a professional career.
I expect to see a network coordinator for youth development. A key role I suggest for the long term success of the program.
Mischievously I could suggest the ideal candidate for such a role (even on a consultative basis - allowing him to continue with his other interests) is already contracted to the club. Sadly however his head may have been turned by his experiences of the last 3 months.
A very plausible hypothesis.
The real question for me is whether Duchatelet has broad objectives of this kind and hopes, somehow, it will all "just happen" through cooperation, which he'll no doubt encourage, or if he has concrete and perhaps detailed plans.
I guess we'll see, but so far, we've only seen one network wide role and that's somebody based in Budapest talking about communication synergies - definitely more Johnny English than Dr No.
As for Riga, he has an interesting CV and I doubt very much he harboured an ambition to manage in the hurly burly of the Championship. Now, having experienced it, he fancies another "shot" it seems. Duchatelet may not view him as being sufficiently committed though, not least since he's lost Riga once already. The anecdotal evidence, i.e. Riga's comments in the media, does not really support the notion that Duchatelet has discussed another role with him.
And I'm fairly sure he won't be the last senior member of staff departing this summer.
As I have said I know what I know, just wanted to voice it, wish I could say more, just don't want to break any ones 'confidence'.
You may well be near to the academy players, and what you suggest may be based on fact, and experience to come to a conclusion like that.
I interviewed Paul as I said at Sparrows lane in February, I have also met him before at various CAFC events, such as Bromley. I am also, and have been involved with local football as a manager/chairman, some of local teams, over 20 years till today. Some of my players have been at the academy during that time, one briefly was in the CAFC first team.
Perhaps what you say has some validity, but may well be based on former lad's experience of not being progressing into the professional game. I appreciate that, and have a couple players in the current team that I am involved with that have been through the process over the past 5 years. So I guess my feedback is different, so I will stand by my posting I think Paul Hart will be a loss, but we shall have to see how this develops?.
Developing an academy is not just about kicking a football, but about developing and preparing the players involved, in a range of educational pathways. Sadly most will not make it in the professional game. Let's hope we can kick on an develop more young players to a professional standard.
My point, was that in Paul Hart you had someone who was and is recognised as a safe pair of hands, not someone out for 'himself' to my knowledge. As I also mentioned this is not about one individual, and we shall see if the management team at the academy is strenghthened in the coming months. I accept we share a different perspective of experiences. Of course I do not have your inside knowledge, but having had to release players myself albeit at a much lower level, there is no easy way to do that ?, than be honest and supportive.
@Red_Robin11 fair enough
In terms of players not making it, when was the last time we had boys be released and then make it ..straight away into prem teams? We have had two in the past year. I'm not talking about Kasey here. I really wish I could quantify this to you, but then again maybe I couldn't. As you said we have differing views, but let's just say if he was 'honest and supportive', in all aspects that would be a good starting point.
As I said in my initial statement, hardly any players or staff will be missing him.
My view is that he was out of work and this was the best option on the table at the time. The rumour around the circuits was that he had been bought in by the previous owners, on an exceptionally high wage, so should Chris Powell fail, they wouldn't have to go outside to find a new manager. Chris lasted a lot longer than most expected. As I understand from the outset, Paul spent a lot of time at job interviews, not for academy roles either.
Have to say, it does sound a bit like talking ill of the "dead" ...or in this case, departed.
But, although I found Paul perfectly "nice" whenever we spoke ( not often) I had heard the rumour that he was our manager in waiting in case SCP didn't work out.
So, although I wish him well for the next stage in his career, along with others, I firmly believe the Academy is very safe in the hands of Steve Avory and the rest of the staff there.
There were times when we all fully expected CP to go and if PH was manager in waiting why did he not go ?