Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
A very good point. I love the Valley and have a deep emotial attachment to it, like most. However, it seems to me that the Blackwall Peninsula is being lined up as the new docklands - i.e the primary focus of development in London with myriad possibilities - there was even talk of it being a docking point for cruise liners, for example, on the website that Henry referred to earlier. Being part of that could potentially put this club right in not only the national, but the international, spotlight (tourism being just one aspect of the area's attraction) - if it ends up slap, bang in the middle of the most important entertainment district in the world's greatest city. However, that is a very big if - the kind that may be visible from space....
Interesting times, and I apologise for speculating upon speculation!
Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
Good point
Except that Millwall is the only other club in the catchment area. It remains a threat, but its Millwall. Not West Ham as was mooted before they got the Olympic stadium
Is West Ham and the O/Stadium a done deal? If I were David Gold a project next to the O2 would look a lot more attractive to me than the soulless O/stadium and the problems the running track throw up.
I never thought I would say this but the thought of an all new purpose built stadium on the peninsular appeals to me. That is of course that the design has character ( not Colchester like ) and is at least 50% larger than The Valley and the team name , Badge , colours etc.. Remain as they are.
It seems that a move from The Valley is very much part of our future. Despite the howls of derision from some I am in the 'if it means we survive.....and then thrive as a football club then it is worth it'. I understand the pain this causes to those who fought for our return to The Valley, but I don't think we should look at it as a sacrifice of that ideal, you saved our club, now maybe we need this to save our club again. All the evidence shows that football in the Championship at The Valley is not financially viable. Despite claims from some that we have not utilised the current site, I'd disagree, we have limited space, we are not in an area where people 'want' to go. I am a product of the Selhurst years and have thus called Selhurst, Upton and The Valley home. I'm sure there are others like me who, while love The Valley, support the club beyond the location.
I hope that the deal goes through on the grounds it guarantees we survive as a football for the foreseeable future.
Bangkok Dave
May I politely ask you for the evidence that "football in the Championship at the Valley is not viable".? Such evidence would not simply be the club's current losses. The implication would be that it is The Valley's fault that these losses are being incurred. The evidence I have, (for example the BDO survey of Finance Directors helpfully posted here a while ago) is that Championship football is inherently unviable. I would be interested in evidence -as opposed to conjecture - that if tomorrow we could be magically transposed to a New Pen stadium, but with everything else as is, particularly squad, we would start to earn revenue that would take us into profit.
Since it was me who 'claimed' that we have not "utilised the current site" (not exactly what I said, but OK), I would like to point out that it is not my personal opinion. It comes from discussions over a period of time with Charlton directors; but also it was recently confirmed by a fascinating source, somebody in the property development business whose personal business interest would be served by moving the Club to the Pen. He conceded that further commercial development at the Valley is perfectly possible. So would you be able to lay out for me, and other Lifers, your professional background and/or sources which would contradict mine?
To be clear, I'm not looking for a personal argument with you. I am hoping you are prepared to contribute information which will help inform the overall debate about the pros and cons of moving.
Possibly. Possibly not. But we have done all that to death here before.
The point is that the owner who proposes such a scheme should make the case in a rational business like way to the fans, otherwise a proportion of them will tell him to stick it up his peninsula.
That's why the Trust ACV initiative is so important. It gives us six months to either have an adult dialogue and agree, or disagree and mobilise against it.
Is there not a business argument for owning your own ground?
The emotional / heritage argument I take as read for the moment although, reading this thread, that is probably presumptious. A lot of people, surprisingly to me, seem strangely ambivalent to the probability of leaving The Valley.
Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
Good point
Except that Millwall is the only other club in the catchment area. It remains a threat, but its Millwall. Not West Ham as was mooted before they got the Olympic stadium
Is West Ham and the O/Stadium a done deal? If I were David Gold a project next to the O2 would look a lot more attractive to me than the soulless O/stadium and the problems the running track throw up.
Unfortunately it is a done deal. The taxpayers' millions have all been allocated to the project, and I believe work has already started on the conversion.
Not good when the boss comes out publicly and states what we've all known for a long time. Hopefully we can get something in place pretty quickly, because I do fear what could happen for the rest of this season and into the summer if it stays the same.
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody came in for the club and tried to move it based majorly on the amount of pie in the sky talk Charlton fans themselves have piped up about it. At this rate, it will be the fans putting the idea in somebody else's mind!
Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
Good point
Except that Millwall is the only other club in the catchment area. It remains a threat, but its Millwall. Not West Ham as was mooted before they got the Olympic stadium
Is West Ham and the O/Stadium a done deal? If I were David Gold a project next to the O2 would look a lot more attractive to me than the soulless O/stadium and the problems the running track throw up.
Unfortunately it is a done deal. The taxpayers' millions have all been allocated to the project, and I believe work has already started on the conversion.
I remember a thread on here when the Olympic Stadium was "awarded" to WHU with some Lifers concerned that the lure of (possibly) Prem football in an iconic ground with great transport links from SE London/Kent might be a serious threat with some less than addicted/lapsed Addicks favouring that option to football at The Valley.
Wouldn't a smart new stadium on the Pen with good parking/park & ride/transport backing & one which retains the feel of OUR home and meets the majority of fans' expectations address this potential problem ?
In cold hard hearted dollar signs the peninsula is an opportunity to develop a piece of land that sits in the very heart of London in a way not seen on a similar scale since the blitz. The O2 arena and complex is already seen as one of Europe's top venues and I can clearly see why any developer would relish the chance to build on that success and create London's "Las Vegas" albeit on a much smaller scale. It already boasts a large underground station Thames Clipper terminal plus the slightly odd Emirates cable car linking it to the DLR network. It will no doubt provide along with luxury housing more restaurants, shops and bars. There is room to include a football stadium and I have little doubt that should the team playing there achieve any success and maintain premiership status it would be extremely well place to attract both new permanent and floating fans.
The Valley is our home and a very big part of our history and very close to my heart. I started going in 1961. The feelings I have for it will not be mirrored by any new owners who only see the benefits by way of a return and or cudos. It's success is ultimately their success and it's failure their failure.
If a sound proposal to move was put before me allowing me to feel that it was a way of securing our long term future then I would be happy to embrace that. Football finances is changing at an alarming pace and there will be casualties. Of that I have no doubt. Being part of something that puts Charlton, my team on a better footing to allow it to take advantage of those changes to football finances and fit in better with what ordinary people want in entertainment is IMHO a good thing. Football is nothing like what it was in 1961 and nor are the people who watch it. Life changes and you have to change with it. Sadly I don't see that change being possible at The Valley unless we are content to always be little old Charlton.
Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
Good point
Except that Millwall is the only other club in the catchment area. It remains a threat, but its Millwall. Not West Ham as was mooted before they got the Olympic stadium
Is West Ham and the O/Stadium a done deal? If I were David Gold a project next to the O2 would look a lot more attractive to me than the soulless O/stadium and the problems the running track throw up.
Unfortunately it is a done deal. The taxpayers' millions have all been allocated to the project, and I believe work has already started on the conversion.
I remember a thread on here when the Olympic Stadium was "awarded" to WHU with some Lifers concerned that the lure of (possibly) Prem football in an iconic ground with great transport links from SE London/Kent might be a serious threat with some less than addicted/lapsed Addicks favouring that option to football at The Valley.
Wouldn't a smart new stadium on the Pen with good parking/park & ride/transport backing & one which retains the feel of OUR home and meets the majority of fans' expectations address this potential problem ?
Looking at the location, it would be crippling if another London (bigger) team moved there. If a stadium is to be built there we have to take it.
Good point
Except that Millwall is the only other club in the catchment area. It remains a threat, but its Millwall. Not West Ham as was mooted before they got the Olympic stadium
Is West Ham and the O/Stadium a done deal? If I were David Gold a project next to the O2 would look a lot more attractive to me than the soulless O/stadium and the problems the running track throw up.
Unfortunately it is a done deal. The taxpayers' millions have all been allocated to the project, and I believe work has already started on the conversion.
I remember a thread on here when the Olympic Stadium was "awarded" to WHU with some Lifers concerned that the lure of (possibly) Prem football in an iconic ground with great transport links from SE London/Kent might be a serious threat with some less than addicted/lapsed Addicks favouring that option to football at The Valley.
Wouldn't a smart new stadium on the Pen with good parking/park & ride/transport backing & one which retains the feel of OUR home and meets the majority of fans' expectations address this potential problem ?
Just asking...
I don't think there would be "good parking" on the Peninsula. Not at an affordable price for many anyway if £20-£30 for the Dome (sorry O2 Arena) is the going rate for the area.
Presumably if we were moved without the club owning the new ground (i.e no income apart from at the gate same as Coventry) & the Valley turned into housing we would be dependant on the owners pumping in money just as the current owner is. Once they have their hands on what they really want out of the deal they could I guess just run us downhill until CAFC is no more ? Just a thought.
Slightly disingenuous article as the mention the move to the penisula is mentioned but nowhere does it say that the new owners intend to move us.
Keep asking the questions
That hasn't stopped most on here getting all hysterical about it, so why should it stop the SLP?
Because they are paid to be better than that. Modestly, and under-resourced, but still professionals.
On first sight, I believe the entire article, other than the news of the price, has been lifted from CL postings. And that, if so, is poor.
However we have a professional journalist among our number so I will wait to hear his considered opinion on the article before commenting further on it
I think you're right here. It's always the way with them.
If a sound proposal to move was put before me allowing me to feel that it was a way of securing our long term future then I would be happy to embrace that. Football finances is changing at an alarming pace and there will be casualties. Of that I have no doubt. Being part of something that puts Charlton, my team on a better footing to allow it to take advantage of those changes to football finances and fit in better with what ordinary people want in entertainment is IMHO a good thing. Football is nothing like what it was in 1961 and nor are the people who watch it. Life changes and you have to change with it. Sadly I don't see that change being possible at The Valley unless we are content to always be little old Charlton.
Good point, and what is interesting to note your comment that the O2 arena complex is seen as 'Europe's top venues' yet I recall quite a significant amount of people in this country were slamming the Government at the time it was built for spending the amount of public money on the dome. Perhaps, we need to embrace a move if the right conditions suit and it means we get a better chance of promotion back to the top tier, that's of course it it ever happens.
The summer price was £43m, but TJ's hand has now been forced...
That said, the numbers still do not appear to add up without Premier League football, as the purchasers would start out down the £18m purchase price and the debt to the bank, plus the ongoing losses this season and in the future.
This! The numbers do not add up unless CAFC can regain Premier League status even if only for 1 season. The gains from promotion far outweigh any business case on moving from the Valley so to me this is a distraction. No idea how the current deal price (if correct) is calculated but one thing is certain: The irony is that the last few months have destroyed value!
The only way a move would be acceptable to me would be if the fans were allowed to have a major input into it's design and features. For me that would basically mean a slightly larger and improved version of our beloved Valley, a complete wrap around stadium. I would like to feel that I was still visiting the Valley, but in a nicer location.
In cold hard hearted dollar signs the peninsula is an opportunity to develop a piece of land that sits in the very heart of London in a way not seen on a similar scale since the blitz. The O2 arena and complex is already seen as one of Europe's top venues and I can clearly see why any developer would relish the chance to build on that success and create London's "Las Vegas" albeit on a much smaller scale. It already boasts a large underground station Thames Clipper terminal plus the slightly odd Emirates cable car linking it to the DLR network. It will no doubt provide along with luxury housing more restaurants, shops and bars. There is room to include a football stadium and I have little doubt that should the team playing there achieve any success and maintain premiership status it would be extremely well place to attract both new permanent and floating fans.
The Valley is our home and a very big part of our history and very close to my heart. I started going in 1961. The feelings I have for it will not be mirrored by any new owners who only see the benefits by way of a return and or cudos. It's success is ultimately their success and it's failure their failure.
If a sound proposal to move was put before me allowing me to feel that it was a way of securing our long term future then I would be happy to embrace that. Football finances is changing at an alarming pace and there will be casualties. Of that I have no doubt. Being part of something that puts Charlton, my team on a better footing to allow it to take advantage of those changes to football finances and fit in better with what ordinary people want in entertainment is IMHO a good thing. Football is nothing like what it was in 1961 and nor are the people who watch it. Life changes and you have to change with it. Sadly I don't see that change being possible at The Valley unless we are content to always be little old Charlton.
In cold hard hearted dollar signs the peninsula is an opportunity to develop a piece of land that sits in the very heart of London in a way not seen on a similar scale since the blitz. The O2 arena and complex is already seen as one of Europe's top venues and I can clearly see why any developer would relish the chance to build on that success and create London's "Las Vegas" albeit on a much smaller scale. It already boasts a large underground station Thames Clipper terminal plus the slightly odd Emirates cable car linking it to the DLR network. It will no doubt provide along with luxury housing more restaurants, shops and bars. There is room to include a football stadium and I have little doubt that should the team playing there achieve any success and maintain premiership status it would be extremely well place to attract both new permanent and floating fans.
The Valley is our home and a very big part of our history and very close to my heart. I started going in 1961. The feelings I have for it will not be mirrored by any new owners who only see the benefits by way of a return and or cudos. It's success is ultimately their success and it's failure their failure.
If a sound proposal to move was put before me allowing me to feel that it was a way of securing our long term future then I would be happy to embrace that. Football finances is changing at an alarming pace and there will be casualties. Of that I have no doubt. Being part of something that puts Charlton, my team on a better footing to allow it to take advantage of those changes to football finances and fit in better with what ordinary people want in entertainment is IMHO a good thing. Football is nothing like what it was in 1961 and nor are the people who watch it. Life changes and you have to change with it. Sadly I don't see that change being possible at The Valley unless we are content to always be little old Charlton.
Among clubs who have reached the Premiership in the last five years while remaining in a ground neither bigger nor more comfortable than the Valley -and with no immediate plans to move - are Norwich, Fulham, Palace, and West Brom. Among clubs who would be there if they hadn't effed it up on the playing side but fall in to that category of stadium are QPR, Blackburn and Wolves. Other clubs who are doing better than us, but where I doubt the stadium's revenue earning capacity is greater than the Valley, are Swansea, Wigan and Watford.
My points:
1.There is no automatic correlation between a shiny new stadium and on field success 2. Unlike virtually all other clubs with new stadia, Charlton currently own a stadium fit for Premier League football and capable of further development. 3. We should have a rational discussion about what is best for the development of a football club. This means not automatically believing in the nice photoshop illustrations of property developers who have no track record of successfully managing a football club
Comments
That is of course that the design has character ( not Colchester like ) and is at least 50% larger than The Valley and the team name , Badge , colours etc.. Remain as they are.
May I politely ask you for the evidence that "football in the Championship at the Valley is not viable".? Such evidence would not simply be the club's current losses. The implication would be that it is The Valley's fault that these losses are being incurred. The evidence I have, (for example the BDO survey of Finance Directors helpfully posted here a while ago) is that Championship football is inherently unviable. I would be interested in evidence -as opposed to conjecture - that if tomorrow we could be magically transposed to a New Pen stadium, but with everything else as is, particularly squad, we would start to earn revenue that would take us into profit.
Since it was me who 'claimed' that we have not "utilised the current site" (not exactly what I said, but OK), I would like to point out that it is not my personal opinion. It comes from discussions over a period of time with Charlton directors; but also it was recently confirmed by a fascinating source, somebody in the property development business whose personal business interest would be served by moving the Club to the Pen. He conceded that further commercial development at the Valley is perfectly possible. So would you be able to lay out for me, and other Lifers, your professional background and/or sources which would contradict mine?
To be clear, I'm not looking for a personal argument with you. I am hoping you are prepared to contribute information which will help inform the overall debate about the pros and cons of moving.
For
Against
Don't care
CL and ITV will be fun places then!!
Not Charlton Athletic FC I fancy.
Is there not a business argument for owning your own ground?
The emotional / heritage argument I take as read for the moment although, reading this thread, that is probably presumptious. A lot of people, surprisingly to me, seem strangely ambivalent to the probability of leaving The Valley.
Not good when the boss comes out publicly and states what we've all known for a long time. Hopefully we can get something in place pretty quickly, because I do fear what could happen for the rest of this season and into the summer if it stays the same.
Lets just see what happens.
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody came in for the club and tried to move it based majorly on the amount of pie in the sky talk Charlton fans themselves have piped up about it. At this rate, it will be the fans putting the idea in somebody else's mind!
Wouldn't a smart new stadium on the Pen with good parking/park & ride/transport backing & one which retains the feel of OUR home and meets the majority of fans' expectations address this potential problem ?
Just asking...
The Valley is our home and a very big part of our history and very close to my heart. I started going in 1961. The feelings I have for it will not be mirrored by any new owners who only see the benefits by way of a return and or cudos. It's success is ultimately their success and it's failure their failure.
If a sound proposal to move was put before me allowing me to feel that it was a way of securing our long term future then I would be happy to embrace that. Football finances is changing at an alarming pace and there will be casualties. Of that I have no doubt. Being part of something that puts Charlton, my team on a better footing to allow it to take advantage of those changes to football finances and fit in better with what ordinary people want in entertainment is IMHO a good thing. Football is nothing like what it was in 1961 and nor are the people who watch it. Life changes and you have to change with it. Sadly I don't see that change being possible at The Valley unless we are content to always be little old Charlton.
The numbers do not add up unless CAFC can regain Premier League status even if only for 1 season. The gains from promotion far outweigh any business case on moving from the Valley so to me this is a distraction.
No idea how the current deal price (if correct) is calculated but one thing is certain: The irony is that the last few months have destroyed value!
I would miss the CHARLTON chip shop.
not as much as he would miss the club and fans
since we lost prem football we have lost
cons
valley pub
horse and groom
the oak (prob)
nearly lost the lib
My points:
1.There is no automatic correlation between a shiny new stadium and on field success
2. Unlike virtually all other clubs with new stadia, Charlton currently own a stadium fit for Premier League football and capable of further development.
3. We should have a rational discussion about what is best for the development of a football club. This means not automatically believing in the nice photoshop illustrations of property developers who have no track record of successfully managing a football club