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Staying at/moving from the Valley. What's the business case?
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Difference being there that Griffin Park was falling apart and they had to move. I do find it odd Brentford chose to build a fairly small stadium capacity wise though. Not sure if there’s scope to ever expand that.msomerton said:Moving would be a big blow to support. They need to agree a long term lease with The Duchalet family.
Then get on with any changes to the ground they think will improve it.
A move out and then building a new stadium is expensive. Given what Brentford spent on their new stadium
would say about£100 million for a new 15000 to 17000 stadium, and where is there room for that is South East London.Charlton would not need to move. It’s a ready made Premier League stadium in the heart of Charlton, good transport links to London, that can easily be expanded if/when necessary.7 -
Trains exist. And re parking restrictions, that’s for the club to work with the Council on. Not a reason to even consider leaving.jimmymelrose said:Everyone is always going on about parking restrictions around The Valley.
How far from the ground do these go, and why are there so many more than in the past?
Can you still park around Charlton Park for example?
If it’s really not possible to park within, let’s say, a 20 minute walk, how are supporters from Kent supposed to get to the match - drive within 3-4 miles and get the bus? That must be putting a lot of fans off.4 -
Would be surprised if Brentford could expand the Gtech, it's hemmed in by a road and 2 railway lines so I think they're stuck at 18k , very clever they even managed to fit a stadium on that land.2
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Sorry. I just noticed this thread:
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/96691/residents-parking-expansion-for-se7-update-page-3/p24
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Surely if the owners haven't got £50m (estimate) to buy back the ground, they aren't going to have £100-125m to build a stadium to house 20-25,000 fans. It cannot make any business sense to even consider moving, if Roland will sell. Surely the owners must buy the ground before the lease ends, if their intention is to own a professional football club.
The stadium plan must have been one of the key objectives at the point of purchasing the club, so it surely is on the to do list.
To me it's a bit like owning an old car nearing its MOT. It's going to cost a lot in repairs etc to get it through the test, but to replace the car will likely cost double, or more. The car is already well known to the owner, and despite it being old is generally reliable. A new car needs to be found and the cost is unclear. It may also not be reliable. Better the devil you know?
I have two cars for daily use, one nearly 30 years old and the other nearly 40!2 -
The most important thing is that the future of Charlton Athletic Football Club is secure and bright. The Valley is our home but it doesn’t trump the overall prosperity and future proofing of the football club. If we ever faced a choice of jeopardising the future security of the football club by remaining at The Valley or moving away then for me the choice is clear. I seriously doubt we’ll ever face such a choice.2
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Let’s face it - RD has us over a barrel here and I think the above discussion only reinforces that - makes no sense in any way to leave the valley - extending the lease or negotiating a sale is the only way - leave the valley - which none of us want - and he will be able to sell the land for development so we have very few bargaining chips from what I can see3
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When you look at The Valley with regards to development into something other than a football stadium, the only thing going for it is that it's a piece of land in London, owned by a disgruntled former owner of the club that plays there. Just about everything else goes against it being ripe for development. If developers are looking to repurpose spaces in London that are already in use and not brownfield sites, there are plenty of warehouse-type places across the capital (Bermondsey / Southwark / Willesden / Harlesden / Wembley / Queensbury / Ilford / Barking / Dagenham, etc.) that look tired, outdated, and in need of either millions of pounds spent on refurbishment, a complete rebuild - or maybe sold on for £50m -£60m to redevelop. I think The Valley would be well down the list for this, given the reasons against it being developed that have already been stated time and again.1
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I disagree but as u say let’s not go down that road againGribbo said:When you look at The Valley with regards to development into something other than a football stadium, the only thing going for it is that it's a piece of land in London, owned by a disgruntled former owner of the club that plays there. Just about everything else goes against it being ripe for development. If developers are looking to repurpose spaces in London that are already in use and not brownfield sites, there are plenty of warehouse-type places across the capital (Bermondsey / Southwark / Willesden / Harlesden / Wembley / Queensbury / Ilford / Barking / Dagenham, etc.) that look tired, outdated, and in need of either millions of pounds spent on refurbishment, a complete rebuild - or maybe sold on for £50m -£60m to redevelop. I think The Valley would be well down the list for this, given the reasons against it being developed that have already been stated time and again.0 -
The Valley isn't a "ready-made premier league ground" anymore.
Look at The Amex, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Hill Dickinson Stadium, the Etihad.
Old Trafford is considered not fit for purpose anymore, Newcastle are seriously considering moving away from St. James Park.
Yes we have a huge affinity with the exact patch of land we currently play on. But times move on, and if in 10 years time we're suddenly an established Premier League side and The Valley can't cater to our needs, we'd be silly to not look at our options.
All pie in the sky of course2 - Sponsored links:
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I don't see there being much of a need to move to a new stadium, there were plans to expand The Valley to 40,000 and pretty sure Peter Varney said last season these plans could still happen even with the recent new builds that have popped up behind the Curbs stand so in terms of ground size 40k is the max we'll ever need.
I don't think teams like Brentford worry about the capacity knowing that TV money dwarfs ticket revenue in the Premier League and if they drop down the divisions again they might not even sell out games anymore in which case the ground would be perfectly fine for them. This certainly applies to us as a Championship or League One team yet in the Prem we know more often than not we would sell out The Valley as it stands and if expanded to 40k would probably sell out any time we faced one of the elite teams so we can rule out having to ever leave to satisfy demand.
That really then leaves just the lease as the only reason to leave but RD actually needs us as much as we need The Valley. If we did decide to leave and have a new ground built somewhere then that would leave RD with a depreciating asset with no revenue coming in. At the moment he's got it perfect for him, he has the rent money coming in and none of the hassle and stress of running the club that came with it at the start. It's in his interests too to keep the rent money coming in or have the assets sold on his terms. Sadly his pockets are too deep for him to need to sell the assets at a price lower than his valuation all the while the rent money comes in. Think we're either going to need to see his personal wealth collapse to the point of needing to sell the assets, I don't know how that happens, doesn't mean to say it's not possible, or he may just decide one day to retire and sell up, probably the most likely option or the last option is the day he's no longer around and the assets get passed on to his family to decide what to do with. Who knows how his mind works given how unpredictable he is.
Either way a ground with no rent money and not able to sell and convert into property in his lifetime means it's in his interests too to make sure we don't leave. Whatever happens I can't see us getting to the point of being evicted or leaving out of choice with nowhere to go.9 -
Is The Valley & training ground worth £50M? Or is the only reason RD wants that figure is because ESI agreed that price knowing that they would never buy.7
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What makes a ground fit for EPL purpose? Loads of plasticy bits everywhere? Popcorn cart at every stand entrance? Nonsense platitudes stencilled onto all the walls?sam3110 said:The Valley isn't a "ready-made premier league ground" anymore.
Look at The Amex, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Hill Dickinson Stadium, the Etihad.
Old Trafford is considered not fit for purpose anymore, Newcastle are seriously considering moving away from St. James Park.
Yes we have a huge affinity with the exact patch of land we currently play on. But times move on, and if in 10 years time we're suddenly an established Premier League side and The Valley can't cater to our needs, we'd be silly to not look at our options.
All pie in the sky of course11 -
I live in Kent and have started getting the train, takes all the hassle out of driving and finding a parking spotjimmymelrose said:Everyone is always going on about parking restrictions around The Valley.
How far from the ground do these go, and why are there so many more than in the past?
Can you still park around Charlton Park for example?
If it’s really not possible to park within, let’s say, a 20 minute walk, how are supporters from Kent supposed to get to the match - drive within 3-4 miles and get the bus? That must be putting a lot of fans off.4 -
The dugouts would probably have to be rebuilt, they weren't big enough for us in League One when you have staff from both teams sitting on chairs next to them.Leuth said:
What makes a ground fit for EPL purpose? Loads of plasticy bits everywhere? Popcorn cart at every stand entrance? Nonsense platitudes stencilled onto all the walls?sam3110 said:The Valley isn't a "ready-made premier league ground" anymore.
Look at The Amex, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Hill Dickinson Stadium, the Etihad.
Old Trafford is considered not fit for purpose anymore, Newcastle are seriously considering moving away from St. James Park.
Yes we have a huge affinity with the exact patch of land we currently play on. But times move on, and if in 10 years time we're suddenly an established Premier League side and The Valley can't cater to our needs, we'd be silly to not look at our options.
All pie in the sky of course2 -
Oh, so a tiny tiny bit of the ground would need to change. Let's throw the whole thing outMartinCAFC said:
The dugouts would probably have to be rebuilt, they weren't big enough for us in League One when you have staff from both teams sitting on chairs next to them.Leuth said:
What makes a ground fit for EPL purpose? Loads of plasticy bits everywhere? Popcorn cart at every stand entrance? Nonsense platitudes stencilled onto all the walls?sam3110 said:The Valley isn't a "ready-made premier league ground" anymore.
Look at The Amex, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Hill Dickinson Stadium, the Etihad.
Old Trafford is considered not fit for purpose anymore, Newcastle are seriously considering moving away from St. James Park.
Yes we have a huge affinity with the exact patch of land we currently play on. But times move on, and if in 10 years time we're suddenly an established Premier League side and The Valley can't cater to our needs, we'd be silly to not look at our options.
All pie in the sky of course8 -
If it comes down to a cold hearted business decision then I trust our current owners to do what’s best for their investment. As much as “we” can’t see it, sentiment ought not to play a part.3
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in terms of land value alone no.guinnessaddick said:Is The Valley & training ground worth £50M? Or is the only reason RD wants that figure is because ESI agreed that price knowing that they would never buy.0 -
I’ve started driving from Kent as it’s easier with kids. Plenty of parking 10mins away towards Woolwich.jimmymelrose said:Everyone is always going on about parking restrictions around The Valley.
How far from the ground do these go, and why are there so many more than in the past?
Can you still park around Charlton Park for example?
If it’s really not possible to park within, let’s say, a 20 minute walk, how are supporters from Kent supposed to get to the match - drive within 3-4 miles and get the bus? That must be putting a lot of fans off.
Of course proper Charlton fans travel by train. Won’t be doing that this season as any decent away following makes the queue to get onto the platform for London Bridge a nightmare!0 -
Nobody has answered my question. C'mon, why does a modern EPL stadium have to be a plastic Yank bowl?5
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It doesn't, look at Brentford you couldn't get more opposite to a bowl stadium.1
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That’s like asking why does every car look the same these days. It’s because stadium design up to a certain point is driven by optimum seating, views, exits, facilities, safety and cost. Put those criteria into a computer and just like with cars there are going to be striking similarities.Leuth said:Nobody has answered my question. C'mon, why does a modern EPL stadium have to be a plastic Yank bowl?0 -
It's all very well saying it would be cheaper to buy The Valley at the ridiculous Two Sheds valuation than build a new stadium - if only these were the only two options. There is a third option if the lease cannot be extended or our owners are not keen on shelling out a stupid amount for The Valley - and we don't want to contemplate that option.3
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U can still park at charlton parkjimmymelrose said:Everyone is always going on about parking restrictions around The Valley.
How far from the ground do these go, and why are there so many more than in the past?
Can you still park around Charlton Park for example?
If it’s really not possible to park within, let’s say, a 20 minute walk, how are supporters from Kent supposed to get to the match - drive within 3-4 miles and get the bus? That must be putting a lot of fans off.0 -
DOUCHER said:
U can still park at charlton parkjimmymelrose said:Everyone is always going on about parking restrictions around The Valley.
How far from the ground do these go, and why are there so many more than in the past?
Can you still park around Charlton Park for example?
If it’s really not possible to park within, let’s say, a 20 minute walk, how are supporters from Kent supposed to get to the match - drive within 3-4 miles and get the bus? That must be putting a lot of fans off.
Golfie is the expert with parking at Charlton Park.6 -
The Jimmy seed stand options are currently being looked at by the club - I can’t see us needing more than a 40k stadium in my lifetime3
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Everything that's wrong with the modern world, in a nutshellShootersHillGuru said:
That’s like asking why does every car look the same these days. It’s because stadium design up to a certain point is driven by optimum seating, views, exits, facilities, safety and cost. Put those criteria into a computer and just like with cars there are going to be striking similarities.Leuth said:Nobody has answered my question. C'mon, why does a modern EPL stadium have to be a plastic Yank bowl?
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That was the case even going back to when we were last in the PL. The dug out issue should have been sorted years ago, too many SMT have not dealt with itMartinCAFC said:
The dugouts would probably have to be rebuilt, they weren't big enough for us in League One when you have staff from both teams sitting on chairs next to them.Leuth said:
What makes a ground fit for EPL purpose? Loads of plasticy bits everywhere? Popcorn cart at every stand entrance? Nonsense platitudes stencilled onto all the walls?sam3110 said:The Valley isn't a "ready-made premier league ground" anymore.
Look at The Amex, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Hill Dickinson Stadium, the Etihad.
Old Trafford is considered not fit for purpose anymore, Newcastle are seriously considering moving away from St. James Park.
Yes we have a huge affinity with the exact patch of land we currently play on. But times move on, and if in 10 years time we're suddenly an established Premier League side and The Valley can't cater to our needs, we'd be silly to not look at our options.
All pie in the sky of course0 -
I’m guessing that should the dugout seating and arrangements not be addressed that there will be complaints by any number of next seasons visiting teams0
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Back in the day people would sell their small shops at a price, and the price often included the added attraction of ‘goodwill’.
It is the goodwill factor attached to the Valley that would be part of a business case.4
