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Staying at/moving from the Valley. What's the business case?

So...

newyorkaddick suggested reasons to move as:

- lower construction costs;
- greater focus on building impressive hospitality areas (which would be easier to sell in that location) rather than more cheap seats;
- real pricing power if/when demand exists to fill it ie. in Premiership,
- better atmosphere.

my initial counter was:

1. There are fairly developed plans to expand the Valley to 32,000 and then to 40,000. The first one received planning approval, I think, but has probably lapsed. These plans of course focused on increasing corporate entertainment capacity

2. "Atmosphere" is a a qualitative judgement, and is more than just a roof that keeps the noise in. A lot of people don't rate many of the new stadia in this respect. The AMEX is an exception which rather shows up the rule. The 32,000 upgrade I think involved filling in the corners of the Valley, which would improve the noise rentention.

3. Unusually among football stadia, The Valley has a railway station with a regular service right alongside, it, and it takes people to where much of the fanbase already lives. That is far less true about North Greenwich tube.

4. "Heritage' is a strong marketing tool in football, as was demonstrated at CAFC throughout the 90s and first half noughties.

(plus moving so that the owners can make money/recover losses, is not a business case)

What do we all think?
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Comments

  • @se9addick

    What I am 100% for is that in the case of the Valley being sold the supporters being consulted.

    Me too. Not least because a business case for something that does not demonstrate that more customers want it, and will pay more to have it, is a piss poor business case.
  • Pasted from the other thread.

    ShootersHillGuru Member
    10:18AM
    If enough people see a way of making money out of a move away from The Valley be they the Mysterons, outside investors or politicians then you can be absolutely certain that these people will be all over it like a rash. If you add to that mix a face and investment saving exit strategy for desperate owners then the prospect of something happening becomes very real.

    Rikileaks is a term that will move into Charlton folklore. Brilliant.



    I am not a businessman but when I see something that walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I generally believe I've seen a duck.
  • It would allow for a purpose built multi-function stadium/sports arena which in turn would allow greater use of lucrative hospitality boxes.
  • Whatever the scenario if we moved it would be imperative that the club had either the free hold or a irrevocable long term leasehold. Situations like Coventry show exactly what not to do.
  • This idea seems to have been kicking around for a few years now.... For me, Airman seems to have been the only person to state the obvious, which Prague mentions above also - the tube goes in the opposite direction to where the vast majority of the fanbase come from. Add to that Greenwich councils opposition to any more cars coming in, you can bet there will be practically zero parking on any peninsula site. Now, there are many who would swim up the Thames to see a game but plenty who wouldn't.
    If we're floundering around the lower reaches or championship or worse, it could be er, counter-productive.
  • Can someone put a map up, clearly marking the location of the potential new site being discussed, please?
  • What would it cost to build a new ground?

    The Ricoh Arena in Coventry cost £113m - but that included a hotel and a conference centre. Swansea's Liberty Stadium was somewhat cheaper - costing £27m, but that only has a 20,750 capacity. The Emirates stadium cost £390m - but that was offset by the sale and construction of Highbury.

    I've no idea what the cost of building a new ground would be or what the plans are - but I doubt that it could be financed from the sale of the Valley for housing, the Valley site doesn't look big enough to me to generate the necessary money. Unless a private consortium built a new stadium and then CAFC took out a long lease on it as private tenants. Assuming that the ground was multi-use - i.e. staged outdoor gigs, boxing matches and other sporting events etc but I still doubt that the numbers would stack up.
  • What would it cost to build a new ground?

    The Ricoh Arena in Coventry cost £113m - but that included a hotel and a conference centre. Swansea's Liberty Stadium was somewhat cheaper - costing £27m, but that only has a 20,750 capacity. The Emirates stadium cost £390m - but that was offset by the sale and construction of Highbury.

    I've no idea what the cost of building a new ground would be or what the plans are - but I doubt that it could be financed from the sale of the Valley for housing, the Valley site doesn't look big enough to me to generate the necessary money. Unless a private consortium built a new stadium and then CAFC took out a long lease on it as private tenants. Assuming that the ground was multi-use - i.e. staged outdoor gigs, boxing matches and other sporting events etc but I still doubt that the numbers would stack up.

    A ground share with Millwall?
  • (Copied from previous thread)

    One could argue (from a pure business perspective) that the 'traditional' fanbase will come anyhow. A location right next to a modern tube station with direct links to the City, West End and Canary Wharf however would make selling corporate hospitality a breeze (in the Prem of course), whilst making us an easy sell too for any casual fans (especially tourists) curious to see a Prem game and unable to do so elsewhere.

    Let's not forget the O2 is next door with a myriad of food/drink options already built out - again makes it a lot easier to persuade the casual fan. Considerable scope for marketing/promotional tie-ups too.

    These are part of the reasons why I am surprised Spurs seem to be pursuing a new stadium in such a dreadful location, right next to their current one.
  • Sponsored links:


  • 1. There are fairly developed plans to expand the Valley to 32,000 and then to 40,000. The first one received planning approval, I think, but has probably lapsed. These plans of course focused on increasing corporate entertainment capacity


    I think this can be forgotten about now, seeing as the club have sold the land behind the east stand and it has now been built on.
  • If we did decide to do this I think we would lose our identity after all we are Charlton, from Charlton. It would also make a mockery of what so may people fought for with the valley party back in the 80's.
    If we did move to a new ground I cannot see us owning the freehold and then a Coventry type situation could easily happen.
    If the current owners are serious about this they should look back to the selhurst years and see how many fans we lost then
  • How far is the O2 from Charlton train station? Easy within walking distance if you ask me, so the transport argument doesn't wash.
  • edited August 2013
    Advertisement on Billboards and in News Shopper 2018

    Charlton Athletic, The Royal Borough of Greenwich and TJMS Leisure
    Proudly present the Grand Opening of The Peninsula Valley.

    New home of Charlton Athletic Football Club providing state of the art facilities for professional football for the next 100 years. A 35,000 all seated stadia with unobstructed views of the pitch and roof to always ensure perfect conditions for sport or concert.

    Fifty luxury hospitality suites, conference and banqueting facilities, fine dining restaurant and quality fast food outlets. Floyds Bar and Braserie and merchandising shop, stalls and kiosks. 75 luxury 1,2 and 3 bedroom apartments some with views over the magnificent Canary Wharf Skyline currently available starting at just £750,000. Retail lockup outlets available on various rental schemes.

    Watch Premiership football in comfort and luxury whatever your budget or take in one of the many exciting concerts that are currently being lined up.

    Easy access via London Underground (North Greenwich), Charlton Station (British Rail) a twenty minute walk or catch one of the many busses from Woolwich Arsenal (DLR) or Overground and just a stones throw from London City Airport. Match day or concert Parking by prepay at O2 Arena Parking with shuttle busses every 5 minutes to the Stadium.

    Apologies to those of you that could have done better but you catch my drift.
  • the owners wont/dont give a shit about our history ------the clue is in the fact its OUR history not theirs. If it makes them a few quid or reduces their loss it will be done.
    The only thing it time----------3 seasons away i should think and maybe these "owners" will be long gone.
    Of course it could be in their plan for selling right now as part of the incentive for new owners.

    The Cons has been sold and will be apartments the selling price was £750K, The plans tp develop the Lib are on the wall that also includes apartments------so the whole Valley site to be developed-----apartments--something for the Council (section 103 i think its called---and its going ahead.
  • edited August 2013

    Advertisement on Billboards and in News lookShopper 2018

    Charlton Athletic, The Royal Borough of Greenwich and TJMS Leisure
    Proudly present the Grand Opening of The Peninsula Valley.

    New home of Charlton Athletic Football Club providing state of the art facilities for professional football for the next 100 years. A 35,000 all seated stadia with unobstructed views of the pitch and roof to always ensure perfect conditions for sport or concert.

    Fifty luxury hospitality suites, conference and banqueting facilities, fine dining restaurant and quality fast food outlets. Floyds Bar and Braserie and merchandising shop, stalls and kiosks. 75 luxury 1,2 and 3 bedroom apartments some with views over the magnificent Canary Wharf Skyline currently available starting at just £750,000. Retail lockup outlets available on various rental schemes.

    Watch Premiership football in comfort and luxury whatever your budget or take in one of the many exciting concerts that are currently being lined up.

    Easy access via London Underground (North Greenwich), Charlton Station (British Rail) a twenty minute walk or catch one of the many busses from Woolwich Arsenal (DLR) or Overground and just a stones throw from London City Airport. Match day or concert Parking by prepay at O2 Arena Parking with shuttle busses every
    5 minutes to the Stadium.
    Ha! Very good when does the work start


    Apologies to those of you that could have done better but you catch my drift.


  • How far is the O2 from Charlton train station? Easy within walking distance if you ask me, so the transport argument doesn't wash.

    Even if I accepted your argument that the O2 is walkable from Charlton station for most people, the stadium is designated for land on the far side beyond the O2.

    People are lazy nowadays. They use the train now because it really is very close. If its train and then half hour walk, they will try instead to use their cars.

  • How far is the O2 from Charlton train station? Easy within walking distance if you ask me, so the transport argument doesn't wash.

    Even if I accepted your argument that the O2 is walkable from Charlton station for most people, the stadium is designated for land on the far side beyond the O2.

    People are lazy nowadays. They use the train now because it really is very close. If its train and then half hour walk, they will try instead to use their cars.

    Boat parking tube walk.
    No problem.
  • No.
    I'm not going to be rational or even come up with much of an argument. I'm a sentimental fool and when it comes to the Valley I will always oppose moving away from there.

    Oh and p.s - the Amex has crap atmosphere.
  • No.
    I'm not going to be rational or even come up with much of an argument. I'm a sentimental fool and when it comes to the Valley I will always oppose moving away from there.

    Oh and p.s - the Amex has crap atmosphere.

    Agreed
  • Sponsored links:


  • edited August 2013
    How can the stadium be on the far side of the O2 seeing as the O2 is already on the end of the peninsula? Surely it would be on the near side closer to the Blackwall tunnel?

    Anyway we're 15 years late, really we should have taken the Millennium Dome when they first planned it and turned it into one of the most iconic stadiums in the world, but we had just invested in The Valley so we didn't. Imagine those 12 pylons as the floodlights, the stands built underneath the canopy with enough room around the sides for all the entertainment complexes you would need.

    Ho hum
  • sam3110 said:

    How can the stadium be on the far side of the O2 seeing as the O2 is already on the end of the peninsula? Surely it would be on the near side closer to the Blackwall tunnel?

    Anyway we're 15 years late, really we should have taken the Millennium Stadium when they first planned it and turned it into one of the most iconic stadiums in the world, but we had just invested in The Valley so we didn't. Imagine those 12 pylons as the floodlights, the stands built underneath the canopy with enough room around the sides for all the entertainment complexes you would need.

    Ho hum

    You are right on your first point,pretty much anyway. The O2 is to the north of the station, the new stadium would be to the west of it. So probably walking distance from Charlton station or more likely Westcombe Park would be much the same as for the O2.

    I guess your second point is a wind up. There is no way Charlton Athletic Football Club could be permanently located north of the river Thames in an area most of us have little connection with.

  • There really isn't a business case for an outside music venue, which would be one of the reason for a stadium in east London, especially competing with the O2 and QEOP
  • Not many people commented @clem_snide post yesterday:

    Some of you may recall that after the Brighton away game last year I let on that my wife's firm had been approached with a view to being part of a proposed take over. As @razil will confirm, I advised him at the time that the real reason that my wife's firm had been approached was to deal with the planning for a new stadium on the existing Macro's site. Shortly after the person acting as a middle man for our proposed new owner advised that the deal was dead and that my wife's firm wouldn't be required. They had been paid a 5 figure sum at that point.

    I can tell you all that this middle man was back in my wife's offices last week and met with senior partners. No one in the company has been told what the meeting was about but the open "rumour" is that they are again being sounded out to deal with planning consent for a new ground and also to start discussions with Greenwich re: use of the Valley site were the club to vacate it.

    Believe what you like, but I for one think this has legs and would not be at all surprised to hear that any take over is dependent on planning being obtained for a new stadium.


    My own feeling is that - if there were a business case- I'd far rather see a new stadium on the Makro site. It would be like moving next door. I could just about stomach it, I think. People would carry on drinking in the same venues (except as Goonerhater says, a lot of them are also under threat).
  • Posted this before but it's relevant I think.

  • Posted this before but it's relevant I think.

    I posted the link on The Voice thread...part of Greenwich Council's 2027 plan

    http://greenwichrising.com/2961/greenwich-council-unveils-peninsula-eltham-charlton-and-woolwich-masterplans/
  • How far is the O2 from Charlton train station? Easy within walking distance if you ask me, so the transport argument doesn't wash.

    Even if I accepted your argument that the O2 is walkable from Charlton station for most people, the stadium is designated for land on the far side beyond the O2.

    People are lazy nowadays. They use the train now because it really is very close. If its train and then half hour walk, they will try instead to use their cars.

    Not many people commented @clem_snide post yesterday:

    Some of you may recall that after the Brighton away game last year I let on that my wife's firm had been approached with a view to being part of a proposed take over. As @razil will confirm, I advised him at the time that the real reason that my wife's firm had been approached was to deal with the planning for a new stadium on the existing Macro's site. Shortly after the person acting as a middle man for our proposed new owner advised that the deal was dead and that my wife's firm wouldn't be required. They had been paid a 5 figure sum at that point.

    I can tell you all that this middle man was back in my wife's offices last week and met with senior partners. No one in the company has been told what the meeting was about but the open "rumour" is that they are again being sounded out to deal with planning consent for a new ground and also to start discussions with Greenwich re: use of the Valley site were the club to vacate it.

    Believe what you like, but I for one think this has legs and would not be at all surprised to hear that any take over is dependent on planning being obtained for a new stadium.


    My own feeling is that - if there were a business case- I'd far rather see a new stadium on the Makro site. It would be like moving next door. I could just about stomach it, I think. People would carry on drinking in the same venues (except as Goonerhater says, a lot of them are also under threat).

    Moving to the Makro site would add nothing from a location perspective - the only site that makes sense would be the Peninsula or perhaps at a push, Ebbsfleet.
  • How far is the O2 from Charlton train station? Easy within walking distance if you ask me, so the transport argument doesn't wash.

    Even if I accepted your argument that the O2 is walkable from Charlton station for most people, the stadium is designated for land on the far side beyond the O2.

    People are lazy nowadays. They use the train now because it really is very close. If its train and then half hour walk, they will try instead to use their cars.

    There is no way that the walk from Charlton station to the O2 can be described as walkable.
  • sam3110 said:

    How can the stadium be on the far side of the O2 seeing as the O2 is already on the end of the peninsula? Surely it would be on the near side closer to the Blackwall tunnel?

    Anyway we're 15 years late, really we should have taken the Millennium Stadium when they first planned it and turned it into one of the most iconic stadiums in the world, but we had just invested in The Valley so we didn't. Imagine those 12 pylons as the floodlights, the stands built underneath the canopy with enough room around the sides for all the entertainment complexes you would need.

    Ho hum

    You are right on your first point,pretty much anyway. The O2 is to the north of the station, the new stadium would be to the west of it. So probably walking distance from Charlton station or more likely Westcombe Park would be much the same as for the O2.

    I guess your second point is a wind up. There is no way Charlton Athletic Football Club could be permanently located north of the river Thames in an area most of us have little connection with.

    I know you're based in Prague now mate, but the O2 Arena is most definitely SOUTH of the river, and therefore is no wind up at all. Not only would the conversion have been cheaper than a brand new stadium, but the council and the government would have paid for most of it to stop it becoming a white elephant site, similar to the incentives and cuts West Ham have been given for the Olympic Site.

    But as I said, 15 years too late
  • I can see three sports teams being interested in using a spanking new stadium. An NFL franchise, a rugby club and Charlton.

    Any two of those three signing up to be tenants could justify the outlay for a pretty tidy stadium.
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